Knock Airport

kirving

cgill wrote: »

If you're not flying into the airport you can hardly expect them to be waiting for you outside operational hours to collect your car?! I agree a sign with opening hours may be necessary, so send the airport an email so that they can address this - they can't improve without feedback! At the very least, there is an information desk which you could have rang to find out the required info... It's not feasible for the airline to collect the development fee and as far as I know there is a notice when you are booking. An airport of Knock's size needs this money to fund improvements, Galway started to do it too but it was too late to make any difference for them...if you need to fly through Knock then it shouldnt be an issue and you would pay that much in fuel going to Dublin or Shannon anyway.

Well, when I'm paying to keep the car there, I would expect 24 hour access yes. An automated barrier already exists, and works perfectly well in every other airport I've ever been to. Installing an automated barrier, and then locking the place with gates is very misleading. There are no sings indicating the opening hours clearly displayed on the gate. Not on the website either.

I wouldn't even have minded an out of hours call out charge, but this isn't available either. Noone on the other end of the phone.

highlydebased

A bizarre situation- the airport assumes I suppose that people will only take or leave their cars before/after flights to Knock.

The average passenger wouldn't have a clue about the airport operating hours so at very least they could provide a very clear notice about it.

L1011

vkid wrote: »

Its an airport charge isn't it? So Ryanair have nothing to do with it.

Most airports with such fees agree to roll them in to fares - this was the case with Are Arann at Waterford, I don't know if flybe do it though

kirving

highlydebased wrote: »

A bizarre situation- the airport assumes I suppose that people will only take or leave their cars before/after flights to Knock.

The average passenger wouldn't have a clue about the airport operating hours so at very least they could provide a very clear notice about it.

And that's probably fine for 99% of cases, sure. Closing one hour after the last arrival / departure is a bit arbitrary to say the least.

cgill

Kevin Irving wrote: »

And that's probably fine for 99% of cases, sure. Closing one hour after the last arrival / departure is a bit arbitrary to say the least.

Why would they stay open though? If the flights have finished for the day they would be paying extra wages but no flights to deal with. They have to be careful with their finances so that one day they can get rid of the development fee and not keep it going forever. You cant have it both ways..

Storm 10

Surely the pay machine should be outside the main door so you could collect anytime, very surprised about no security at an Airport

Locker10a

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I was forced to fly back to Belfast yesterday night though, and got a lift straight to Knock to collect my car from the car park. I was greeted by a locked gate, and not a soul in sight. There are no signs outside the car park indicating it's opening hours, and being an airport, in 2014, you'd kind of expect 24 hour access, right? Nope.

What is wrong with a security barrier, I don't know. Seems to work fine everywhere else. It's not even secure, either. A bolt cutters would have seen me into the car park, but I don't carry one around in my pocket. I'm regretting not just abandoning my car in the rental car park.

Opening hours listed outside. No
Opening hours listed clearly online? No. (It's a single line on the web page, after you click into "Read more"
Phone number to ring? No.
Security office around? No.
I remotely set my car alarm off too, to maybe attract a security guard. Nothing.

There's a 24 hour petrol station not five minutes away, and yet the airport won't even allow customers to access their own cars in an emergency. That is a complete joke of an operation in my opinion, and I image others will agree.

(Actually, nor is passenger security even remotely up to standard. Not by a long shot, but going into details on the internet probably isn't the best idea)

Glad as I was of the location at the time, an airport that has to further levy passengers, for inadequate service is doomed to fail. Aside from travelling back to get my car today, I will choose the drive to Dublin or Belfast every single time in future.

You are right about the parking and the abandoned airport at night, you should give this feedback to the airport

flazio

That would make me wary about paying to leave my car at their airport if someone can just climb the fence and help themselves. The least I'd expect is 24 hour monitoring.
"Ireland West Airport. Don't Knock it until you try it."

kirving

cgill wrote: »

Why would they stay open though? If the flights have finished for the day they would be paying extra wages but no flights to deal with. They have to be careful with their finances so that one day they can get rid of the development fee and not keep it going forever. You cant have it both ways..

While I understand that to a point, the complete absence of signage both online and at the airport itself is what's really annoying.

I'm not looking for it both ways, but right now, they're charging the fee, charging for parking, and still not providing the service.

I did make a complaint yesterday, so hopefully even a few signs can be erected in future.

Kevin Irving

Kevin Irving wrote: »

While I understand that to a point, the complete absence of signage both online and at the airport itself is what's really annoying.

I'm not looking for it both ways, but right now, they're charging the fee, charging for parking, and still not providing the service.

I did make a complaint yesterday, so hopefully even a few signs can be erected in future.

The whole point of the 10 euro is to pay the airport staff wages and to pay for maintenance of the airport.
Im surprised there was no security... Could be an off site camera system. Its probably a rare event for someone to collect the Car after the airport is shut. However it should still of been possible. Hopefully the airport will act on your complaint.

No matter how small, All changes cost money of which they have very little so you could be waiting a while. Knock has to operate lean. It can,t afford the waste or luxuries of other airports.

Neworder79

Kevin Irving wrote: »

While I understand that to a point, the complete absence of signage both online and at the airport itself is what's really annoying.

They had cars vandalised in the past and installed remote manned CCTV and security fencing (financed by the development levy).

It's a balance between security for the majority of users who want to be sure their care is safe while away, and providing open access for a rare night time visitor. But the could provide a 24hour call security service.

If you lived in or around galway, the €10 is probably a deciding factor.

Fair enough, it's a competitive free market and users will balance convenience with cost of flight and parking.
But the fee shouldn't be characterised as some frivolous levy imposed for no reason. They would drop it tomorrow if there was an alternative.

It costs appx €8m to operate the airport - about €4m from commercial, parking and aviation services. The departure fee making up most of the remaining €4m. There are no alternative income sources, and attempts to develop other channels have been long-grassed by Government (SDZ, Tech Park, Free Zone).

Cut Costs!
It already operates the tightest of single shifts, part time/seasonal staff double-jobbing and other creative means of staying open. It faces the same costs increases and pressures as any business at a time where supports and capital grants have been cut every year. And as seen above pressure to provide better infrastructure and passenger services.

Charge Airlines!
Simple fact is the fee is their only means of self funding for the moment. It allows them to offer airline routes incentives, and in-turn support low fares to sustain traffic levels. If they increased airline charges most of the 25 routes, providing direct access to W/NW would be gone, with only the highest yielding UK routes and the odd charter remaining.

Solution - Follow recommendations of last 3 Gov reports:
Consolidate regional aviation investment.
Sustainable exchequer support to grow to self funding.
Stakeholder involvement.

6 Local authorities have tentatively agreed to take a stake in the airports future this month, putting money on the table.

The DOT now need to work with them to provide a sustainable financial plan for the facility, fund capital development so it can maintain infrastructure and continue to grow 10% annually, to reach it's target of 1.2m visitors and become self funding.

JCX BXC

Neworder79 wrote: »

They had cars vandalised in the past and installed remote manned CCTV and security fencing (financed by the development levy).

It's a balance between security for the majority of users who want to be sure their care is safe while away, and providing open access for a rare night time visitor. But the could provide a 24hour call security service.




Fair enough, it's a competitive free market and users will balance convenience with cost of flight and parking.
But the fee shouldn't be characterised as some frivolous levy imposed for no reason. They would drop it tomorrow if there was an alternative.

It costs appx €8m to operate the airport - about €4m from commercial, parking and aviation services. The departure fee making up most of the remaining €4m. There are no alternative income sources, and attempts to develop other channels have been long-grassed by Government.

It already operates the tightest of single shifts, part time/seasonal staff double-jobbing and other creative means of staying open. It faces the same costs increases and pressures as any business at a time where supports and capital grants have been cut every year.

Simple fact is the fee is their only means of self funding for the moment. It allows them to offer airline routes incentives, and in-turn support low fares to sustain traffic levels. If they increased airline charges most of the 25 routes, providing direct access to W/NW would be gone, with only the highest yielding UK routes remaining and an uncertain financial situation.

Solution?
6 Local authorities have tentatively agreed to take a stake in the airports future, putting money on the table.

The DOT now need to work with them provide a sustainable financial plan for the facility, and fund capital development so it can maintain and continue to grow 10% annually, to reach it's target of 1.2m visitors and become self funding.

Will the €10 departure fees discourage passengers? Yes.

Neworder79

Carnacalla wrote: »

Will the €10 departure fees discourage passengers? Yes.

If you read the post I agreed with you. But you're ignoring the reality of the situation outlined. Businesses that want to survive do no ditch 50% of their income.

cgill

Neworder79 wrote: »

They had cars vandalised in the past and installed remote manned CCTV and security fencing (financed by the development levy).

It's a balance between security for the majority of users who want to be sure their care is safe while away, and providing open access for a rare night time visitor. But the could provide a 24hour call security service.




Fair enough, it's a competitive free market and users will balance convenience with cost of flight and parking.
But the fee shouldn't be characterised as some frivolous levy imposed for no reason. They would drop it tomorrow if there was an alternative.

It costs appx €8m to operate the airport - about €4m from commercial, parking and aviation services. The departure fee making up most of the remaining €4m. There are no alternative income sources, and attempts to develop other channels have been long-grassed by Government (SDZ, Tech Park, Free Zone).

Cut Costs!
It already operates the tightest of single shifts, part time/seasonal staff double-jobbing and other creative means of staying open. It faces the same costs increases and pressures as any business at a time where supports and capital grants have been cut every year. And as seen above pressure to provide better infrastructure and passenger services.

Charge Airlines!
Simple fact is the fee is their only means of self funding for the moment. It allows them to offer airline routes incentives, and in-turn support low fares to sustain traffic levels. If they increased airline charges most of the 25 routes, providing direct access to W/NW would be gone, with only the highest yielding UK routes and the odd charter remaining.

Solution - Follow recommendations of last 3 Gov reports:
Consolidate regional aviation investment.
Sustainable exchequer support to grow to self funding.
Stakeholder involvement.

6 Local authorities have tentatively agreed to take a stake in the airports future this month, putting money on the table.

The DOT now need to work with them to provide a sustainable financial plan for the facility, fund capital development so it can maintain infrastructure and continue to grow 10% annually, to reach it's target of 1.2m visitors and become self funding.

This is an excellent post! Really good overview of dev fee and costs - take note those who think it's pointless.

JCX BXC

Neworder79 wrote: »

If you read the post I agreed with you. But you're ignoring the reality of the situation outlined. Businesses that want to survive do no ditch 50% of their income.

I did read you post, three times in fact. Are you telling me that knock do not charge landing and other airport fees to the airline?

I very much doubt a €10 charge is 50% of their income.

JCX BXC

I read your post three times.
I just dont agree with a €10 very under-publicised charge on passengers.
Very simular to ryanair. Its more or less hidden.

cgill

Carnacalla wrote: »

I did read you post, three times in fact. Are you telling me that knock do not charge landing and other airport fees to the airline?

I very much doubt a €10 charge is 50% of their income.

Landing fees are probably a tiny part of their income. The harsh reality of it is that the development fee is a huge portion of their income. Knock aren't as privilaged as some other airports who don't need to charge any landing fees....

JCX BXC

cgill wrote: »

Landing fees are probably a tiny part of their income. The harsh reality of it is that the development fee is a huge portion of their income. Knock aren't as privilaged as some other airports who don't need to charge any landing fees....

Where does the government subsidy go? Landing fees, stand charges, check in desks?
Kerry has these, yet I didn't get a €10 effectivly hidden charge before getting on my flight.

cgill

Carnacalla wrote: »

Where does the government subsidy go? Landing fees, stand charges, check in desks?
Kerry has these, yet I didn't get a €10 effectivly hidden charge before getting on my flight.

Debt repayment? Staff wages? Light, Heat? Upkeep of terminal facilities/ vehicles/ runway etc? You obviously have an issue with the fee being hidden but as you said yourself - it's Ryanair! All the other airlines notify you during booking and it's on the airport website too...blame the airline, not the airport!

Neworder79

Carnacalla wrote: »

Where does the government subsidy go

Knock only recieves Operational Expenditure Subvention (OPEX) which is calculated at the end of each year to cover LOSSES.

Kerry is in financial difficulty too. But it has PSO grant which effectively subsidises the airports operation cover redeye and late services.

But you probably knew that. If you are based in Clare why are you flying from Knock which must cost you 4 times the fee in petrol, whats the problem with Shannon?

irishbloke77

When someone pays for a flight, the airlines gets some of that, the government does and so does the airport. Why not just add 10 euros to the cost of the ticket when booking its day one and let the airline pass on 10 euros extra to the airport? That way, the airport won't be faced with telling the public they must pay 10 euros extra on the day they go to fly out.

After all, that is what the customer must pay, that is what the airport must get, it's not costing the airline any more.

Is it that if the ticket seems to rise by 10 euros more, then less people may fly? If so, that's just trying to fool the public, the 10 euros is still payable either day one, or on the day of departure.

For what it's worth, I am not against knock getting the 10 euros, if that's what's needed to keep going, then it must be charged. Just build it into the cost at the start then.

Storm 10

Lads will ye stop copying every large post then adding a few comments at the bottom, can ye not copy and paste whatever comment you want not the whole post

Masala

[QUOTE=Neworder79;93185910

6 Local authorities have tentatively agreed to take a stake in the airports future this month, putting money on the table.
.[/QUOTE]

.... Are u sure of that??? I know there has been talk alright... but money on the table?? Link????

Neworder79

Masala wrote: »

.... Are u sure of that??? ... Link????

Believe all 7 Council authorities agreed in principle. 4 have passed in their 2015 budgets this week (Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim).

Reported that each will contribute between €30,000 and €200,000 p/a, calculated on a ratio of bed nights / tourism contribution from the airport to their region, taking a stake in the airports owner trust. That will strengthen the airports capital investment case and fulfil their part of the O'Mahon report recommendations.

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/73443/city-council-chief-says-next-weeks-budget-will-be-good-for-business
http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/73588/councils-budget-to-fall-by-seven-per-cent-next-year
http://www.shannonside.ie/news/leitrim-councillors-back-plan-to-invest-in-development-of-ireland-west-airport-knock/
http://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/business/news/councillors-vote-to-back-ireland-west-airport-proposal-1-6399193
http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=31920

L1011

How Sligo can even consider it astounds me, they're completely broke

Masala

Neworder79 wrote: »

Believe all 7 Council authorities agreed in principle. 4 have passed in their 2015 budgets this week (Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim).

Reported that each will contribute between €30,000 and €200,000 p/a, calculated on a ratio of bed nights / tourism contribution from the airport to their region, taking a stake in the airports owner trust. That will strengthen the airports capital investment case and fulfil their part of the O'Mahon report recommendations.

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/73443/city-council-chief-says-next-weeks-budget-will-be-good-for-business
http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/73588/councils-budget-to-fall-by-seven-per-cent-next-year
http://www.shannonside.ie/news/leitrim-councillors-back-plan-to-invest-in-development-of-ireland-west-airport-knock/
http://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/business/news/councillors-vote-to-back-ireland-west-airport-proposal-1-6399193
http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=31920

Again... don't really know about this. A lot of huffing and puffing going on there. Share Capital is not what is needed for Knock? That wont clear up the Loans OR give enough for their Capital Plans shortfall. Or more loans (Leitrim!) is needed like a hole in the head! They need Marketing Monies as contribution to their costs to turn trading losses into profits ... and it would have to be an annual stream of money over the next 10 years from those Councils.

Good luck with that!!

Carnacalla

Carnacalla wrote: »

Where does the government subsidy go? Landing fees, stand charges, check in desks?
Kerry has these, yet I didn't get a €10 effectivly hidden charge before getting on my flight.

Knock still has debt and debt interest to pay, unlike your local bailed out airport. If they have 9 million in debt they are probably using most of that tiny subsidy just to service that debt.

They also have to pay for their own security, air traffic controllers, and emergency services unlike other airports which the taxpayer cover. Its amazing they can afford to keep the doors open which is only because the airport is so efficient and has such support in the western/north region.
http://www.irelandwestairport.com/airportguide/airportdevelopmentfee.aspx

Considering it supports 900 regional jobs it should get a lot more state support(like any large business would), 900 jobs down here is equivalent of several thousand in Dublin. Especially when you only get 1 IDA visit/year out of 700 to the county.
http://www.galwayindependent.com/20140813/opinion/why-galway-should-support-knock-airport-S42420.html
http://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/23168-only-one-ida-led-visit-to-mayo-so-far-this-year-out-of-700-client-visits-says-dara-calleary-td

irishbloke77

irishbloke77 wrote: »

For what it's worth, I am not against knock getting the 10 euros, if that's what's needed to keep going, then it must be charged. Just build it into the cost at the start then.

It should be added to the ticket but i think Ryanair refused to accept that at the time. Ryanair set the terms they wish in a lot of airports now.

notharrypotter

They also have to pay for their own security,...and emergency services unlike other airports which the taxpayer cover.

Each airport must cover its own services.

, air traffic controllers,

The IAA provides this service at Dublin, Cork and Shannon.
It charges the airlines for the service.
The taxpayer is not on the hook at Dublin, Cork or your favorite Shannon.
In fact the IAA and DAA both contribute to the exchequer last year by means of a dividend.

Shannon has made a profit last year (post 500)(Irish Examiner link)so it will soon be expected to contribute to the state too.



Ireland west Knock Report from the Department of transport website.
Page 11 gives the annual grant for Operational expenditure.
Capital support is on page 13.

JCX BXC

Deleted User wrote: »

Knock still has debt and debt interest to pay, unlike your local bailed out airport. If they have 9 million in debt they are probably using most of that tiny subsidy just to service that debt.

You need to get over the fact that shannon got their debt wiped. Please! I dont bring it up, you should not bring it up either! Its a thread about knock, not shannon.

The government did also not pay shannon €100 million, the DAA did, not the taxpayers pockets as you commonly rant about.
Enough about shannon.

How much does knock get a year in subsides?