Brendan Rogers IS the new Liverpool Manager

plasmaguy

Melion wrote: »

Pretty sure i said he was poor BAR his goal

Fair enough.

Scoring goals is pretty important however.

Anyways, pool were torn to shreds in the first half.

Milan were celebrating winning the cup at half time in the dressing room, singing songs and everything.

Pool caught them by surprise in the second half, but Gerard was very good.

I remember John Giles saying "as usual in big games, Stephen Gerard is nowhere to be seen" during his half time analyis.

Gerard has the knack of scoring wonder goals and crucial goals in big games when it matters. I don't think Benitez can claim much credit for how brilliant Gerard is.

G.K.

Andre Villas-Boas

Arshavin is still a class player. The likes of Arsenal were buying him while Villa were buying Heskey. That's why they didn't get CL.

Melion

plasmaguy wrote: »

Fair enough.

Scoring goals is pretty important however.

Anyways, pool were torn to shreds in the first half.

Milan were celebrating winning the cup at half time in the dressing room, singing songs and everything.

Pool caught them by surprise in the second half, but Gerard was very good.

I remember John Giles saying "as usual in big games, Stephen Gerard is nowhere to be seen".

Gerard has the knack of scoring wonder goals and crucial goals in big games when it matters. I don't think Benitez can claim much credit for how brilliant Gerard is.

GERRARD, GERRARD, STEVEN FÚCKING GERRARD!

And surely Smicer was just an important part since he scored aswell.

rossie1977

plasmaguy wrote: »

I'm not sure how much of the managerial or tactical genius of Benitez was the reason for liverpool winning the CL in 2005.

1. He didn't get them into the CL in 2005, Houlier did.

that is correct but liverpool still had to go through a qualifying round and a tough group to progress

2. Benitez inherited the majority of players from Houlier and previous managers.

rafas two main signings that summer played a massive role in winning the champions league, garcia who scored 3 against leverkusen, scored against juventus and the winner against chelsea and alonso who scored in the final, saying he inherited the players is neither here nor there (will we be saying if di matteo wins tonight), liverpool would never have won a champions league under houllier, especially the houllier than came back after heart surgery

3. They were dead and buried in the group stages, until Gerard scored a wonder goal.

one goal away is not dead and buried, at half time things looked bleak but rafas 2 subs that night (pongolle and mellor) changed the entire game, gerrard just added the finishing touches

4. The goal against Chelsea in the semis was the dodgiest goal in CL history.

had the goal not been given it was a penalty and red card for cech, liverpool would surely have scored at least one over the next 90+ minutes against a ten man chelsea that night had that happened

5. Benitez plan A for the CL final was blown out of the water when AC Milan went 3-0 up. He was forced to turn to a plan B. But Steven Gerard deserves far far more credit for winning that final than Rafa Benitez.

isn't that the sign of a good manager, when plan a doesn't work you have a plan b that can change the game completely, gerrard would have been ineffectual had rafa not changed the formation at half time and brought on didi which allowed gerrard a free role

Benitez is no genius. He spent a sh*tload of money, almost bankrupted the club and did nothing to develop young players at the club

this is complete bollox

plasmaguy

Yeh but Arshavin cost 25 million.

The difference is Heskey is better suited to the league where he can get goals and set up goals and good for setpieces.

Arshavin apart from the game against liverpool and one or two others just didn't have the physique for the EPL.

I would also say in MON's defence, it's probably hard to attract players to the Birmingham area, when they'd prefer to stay around London or else Manchester. I'd certainly say if Defoe was given the option of Birmingham or London, he'd go for London, same with a lot of foreign players too.

Melion

plasmaguy wrote: »

Yeh but Arshavin cost 25 million.

The difference is Heskey is better suited to the league where he can get goals and set up goals and good for setpieces.

Arshavin apart from the game against liverpool and one or two others just didn't have the physique for the EPL.

I would also say in MON's defence, it's probably hard to attract players to the Birmingham area, when they'd prefer to stay around London or else Manchester. I'd certainly say if Defoe was given the option of Birmingham or London, he'd go for London, same with a lot of foreign players too.

25million??? Where the fúck do you pull this shít?

G.K.

Andre Villas-Boas

plasmaguy wrote: »

Fair enough.

Scoring goals is pretty important however.

Anyways, pool were torn to shreds in the first half.

Milan were celebrating winning the cup at half time in the dressing room, singing songs and everything.

Pool caught them by surprise in the second half, but Gerard was very good.

I remember John Giles saying "as usual in big games, Stephen Gerard is nowhere to be seen" during his half time analyis.

Gerard has the knack of scoring wonder goals and crucial goals in big games when it matters. I don't think Benitez can claim much credit for how brilliant Gerard is.

Benitez can claim credit for moving him away from CM where he is an average player, moving him to the attacking role where he was truly world class.

But Managers can claim creidit for using players correctly where they are World Class. Gerrard was so good under Benitez because he had such a reduced defensive responsibility, and only Rafa has recognised this. It's like how Guardiola has got the best out of Messi by playing him in the middle.

kitakyushu

plasmaguy wrote: »

Gerard has the knack of scoring wonder goals and crucial goals in big games when it matters.

He also has a nack of *not* scoring crucial goals in big games when it matters. They could have done with one in the 2007 CL final for instance.

Basically he has a go every time the chips are down. Sometimes he scores , sometimes he doesn't. If you're going to gamble your clubs future on that then good luck to you.

5starpool

Andre Villas-Boas

This thread has turned into all sorts of craptalk.

plasmaguy

Melion wrote: »

25million??? Where the fúck do you pull this shít?

15 million...

15 million down the drain.

While Heskey was no great shakes, he still did better over the long run than Arshavin, not just in scoring goals but for his nuisance value as a big attacker.

So again using Arshavin as an example is not good.

Like I said, its not who you buy, its where you finish.

6th three years in a row for Villa was good.

MON is a good manager.

Melion

plasmaguy wrote: »

15 million...

15 million down the drain.

While Heskey was no great shakes, he still did better over the long run than Arshavin, not just in scoring goals but for his nuisance value as a big attacker.

So again using Arshavin as an example is not good.

Like I said, its not who you buy, its where you finish.

6th three years in a row for Villa was good.

MON is a good manager.

Is it 15 or 25? Make up your mind

plasmaguy

Melion wrote: »

Is it 15 or 25? Make up your mind

He was sh*t, that's the important fact.

Melion

plasmaguy wrote: »

He was sh*t, that's the important fact.

In your eyes maybe. Just like i think Martin o'Neill is nothing but a long ball merchant who will never get a big job.

Helix

plasmaguy wrote: »

While Heskey was no great shakes, he still did better over the long run than Arshavin, not just in scoring goals but for his nuisance value as a big attacker.

have you ever watched a football match? heskey was diabolical for villa, and cost the club a grand total of £15.33m inc wages

he was signed when villa looked dead cert for a champions league place, then the team's system was changed to suit him and, guess what, we went on an absolutely stinking run where we couldn't score for love nor money

heskey's return for villa was 9 goals in 90 games

plasmaguy

Melion wrote: »

In your eyes maybe. Just like i think Martin o'Neill is nothing but a long ball merchant who will never get a big job.

And you are basing that on what? Have you bothered to watch Sunderland this season? They play a nice brand of football for the most part, with the ball on the deck.

Owen_S

Rafael Benitez

LOL are people really comparing Heskey and Arshavin in a thread about potential Liverpool managers?

Melion

plasmaguy wrote: »

And you are basing that on what? Have you bothered to watch Sunderland this season? They play a nice brand of football for the most part, with the ball on the deck.

Im basing it on the following:

Leicester - Heskey knocking ball down to Cottee IIRC
Celtic - Hartson/Sutton knocking ball down to Larsson
Villa - Heskey/Carew knocking ball down to Agbonlahor etc

Im not too sure on who he had at Wycombe so i wont post it. The fact he tried to sign Kevin Davies for Sunderland in January shows he will be trying to do the same next season.

plasmaguy

Helix wrote: »

have you ever watched a football match? heskey was diabolical for villa, and cost the club a grand total of £15.33m inc wages

he was signed when villa looked dead cert for a champions league place, then the team's system was changed to suit him and, guess what, we went on an absolutely stinking run where we couldn't score for love nor money

heskey's return for villa was 9 goals in 90 games

So do you give MON any credit for getting Villa to 6th three years running?

I'm pretty sure Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal spent more than MON in those years. After all MON sold a lot of top players and still did ok in the league.

Melion

plasmaguy wrote: »

So do you give MON any credit for getting Villa to 6th three years running?

I'm pretty sure Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal spent more than MON in those years. After all MON sold a lot of top players and still did ok in the league.

Where did David O'Leary have Villa in his first season just out of interest?

plasmaguy

Melion wrote: »

Where did David O'Leary have Villa in his first season just out of interest?

I think it was 9th. It was 16th in his last season, same as McLeish this year.

G.K.

Andre Villas-Boas

plasmaguy wrote: »

And you are basing that on what? Have you bothered to watch Sunderland this season? They play a nice brand of football for the most part, with the ball on the deck.

Melion wrote: »

Im basing it on the following:

Leicester - Heskey knocking ball down to Cottee IIRC
Celtic - Hartson/Sutton knocking ball down to Larsson
Villa - Heskey/Carew knocking ball down to Agbonlahor etc

Im not too sure on who he had at Wycombe so i wont post it. The fact he tried to sign Kevin Davies for Sunderland in January shows he will be trying to do the same next season.

Sunderland vs Everton in the cup typifed this. Bendtner and Cambpell didn't come back to close down or do any defensive work. They just stayed in Everton's half constantly, leaving the rest of the team to do a job that you need 10 outfield players to do.

Melion wrote: »

Where did David O'Leary have Villa in his first season just out of interest?

6th - equal points with 5th.

plasmaguy

G.K. wrote: »

6th

Yeh fair enough, but 16th in his last season and just scraped clear of relegation.

O'Leary started well but it just kept doing downhill and he fell out with the fans.

Melion

plasmaguy wrote: »

I think it was 9th. It was 16th in his last season, same as McLeish this year.

Incorrect again

Melion

plasmaguy wrote: »

Yeh fair enough, but 16th in his last season and just scraped clear of relegation.

O'Leary started well but it just kept doing downhill and he fell out with the fans.

Because he got no money from Doug Ellis IIRC, im open to correction by Helix on that one though.

plasmaguy

Well it looks like Bendtner heading back to Arsenal.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/05/19/3112729/bramble-heading-for-sunderland-exit-as-oneill-plans

And O'Neill might be interested in Holt, who I'm not sure is a Heskey type player.

Melion

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well it looks like Bendtner heading back to Arsenal.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/05/19/3112729/bramble-heading-for-sunderland-exit-as-oneill-plans

And O'Neill wants Holt, who I'm not sure is a Heskey type player.

He is a big, bulky, battering ram striker. Just the type O'Neill likes.

G.K.

Andre Villas-Boas

But unlike Heskey and Kevin Davies, he's actually got at least a modicum of skill.

Helix

plasmaguy wrote: »

So do you give MON any credit for getting Villa to 6th three years running?

I'm pretty sure Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal spent more than MON in those years. After all MON sold a lot of top players and still did ok in the league.

only man city spent more than villa while mon was at villa. mon only sold barry of any real note - so where's this idea that he sold "a lot of top players" coming from? he absolutely did not.

and yes i do give mon credit for getting villa to 6th, however he did it in a completely unsustainable way that had no chance of every continuing, nor improving due to his lack of ability in the transfer market

did you know, that during mon's tenure at villa, the club had ONE overseas scout. thats a single guy covering the entire world outside the uk. that was mon's call, that wasn't a villa club call

it wasnt good enough for villa, and it wouldn't be good enough for liverpool - which is the whole point of this discussion here

plasmaguy

Melion wrote: »

He is a big, bulky, battering ram striker. Just the type O'Neill likes.

He's a goal scorer.

Would you prefer a striker who is 5"9.

Of course its the player O'Neill likes, as he likes Kevin Davies too.

Davies is central to most Bolton attacks and I've never seen him lose a header against a defender.

You need someone up front to win the ball and hold it and bring others into the game and also be a threat from set pieces.

Cyrus

Andre Villas-Boas

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well it looks like Bendtner heading back to Arsenal.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/05/19/3112729/bramble-heading-for-sunderland-exit-as-oneill-plans

And O'Neill might be interested in Holt, who I'm not sure is a Heskey type player.

Ffs do you know who grant holt is??

Most clueless poster in boards soccer ever

Helix

Melion wrote: »

Because he got no money from Doug Ellis IIRC, im open to correction by Helix on that one though.

o'leary lost the dressing room, the fans and the chairman all in a very short space of time at his last season at villa. the team finished 16th yes, but it was moreso to do with the internal issues than anything else. we were dire that season, but we weren't quite as bad as the final table made out. and that was a squad who had finished 6th not long before that

G.K.

Andre Villas-Boas

plasmaguy wrote: »

He's a goal scorer.

Would you prefer a striker who is 5"9.

Of course its the player O'Neill likes, as he likes Kevin Davies too.

Davies is central to most Bolton attacks and I've never seen him lose a header against a defender.

You need someone up front to win the ball and hold it and bring others into the game and also be a threat from set pieces.

Yeah, that's Messi in a nutshell.

I'd prefer a striker who is 5"7'

Helix

plasmaguy wrote: »

You need someone up front to win the ball and hold it and bring others into the game and also be a threat from set pieces.

you do if you're playing hoofball rubbish, yeah

plasmaguy

Here's some detail on his Villa transfers.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2010/08/10/2063793/the-martin-oneill-years-how-aston-villa-grew-under-the-enigmatic-

Some of his signings, Villa made profits on while he was there or after he left, Young, Downing, Barry, Milner.

He also bought a lot of good players, such as Petrov, Young and Freidel.

Heskey only cost 3.5 million, so nowhere near as big a flop as others in the EPL.

plasmaguy

G.K. wrote: »

Yeah, that's Messi in a nutshell.

I'd prefer a striker who is 5"7'

And how much would Messi cost? Or Silva? Or Aguero, Tevez, Rooney or any of these small creative players/goalscorers?

Tell us a striker for less than 10 million who O'Neill should sign that is proven. And I don't think he will spend more than 10 million.

Helix

plasmaguy wrote: »

Here's some detail on his Villa transfers.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2010/08/10/2063793/the-martin-oneill-years-how-aston-villa-grew-under-the-enigmatic-

Some of his signings, Villa made profits on while he was there or after he left, Young, Downing, Barry, Milner.

He also bought a lot of good players, such as Petrov, Young and Freidel.

Heskey only cost 3.5 million, so nowhere near as big a flop as others in the EPL.

martin o'neill wasn't manager when villa sold young, downing or milner. you said he had to sell plenty of top players. he didnt. he only sold barry of any note while he was villa manager

heskey cost villa more than £15m in total for 90 games and 9 goals in the league, or 111 games and 15 goals in all competitions. ba cost nothing but his wages and outscored heskey in 6 months

his signing also cost villa champions league football, because a decent system was completely changed mid season when the club needed a goalscorer, not a lump

G.K.

Andre Villas-Boas

Right.

Barry wasn't a MON signing for a start. You've also named the only 3 of his 26 signings which Villa made a profit on.

'Lots of good players'? At most you can say Carew, Petrov, Young, Downing, Milner, Friedel and Cuellar. 7 out of 26....

Heskey's transfer fee is only part of the thing. Factor in his wages too...

Happy Monday

Andre Villas-Boas

Getting away from the Aston Vanilla thing!

Are people impressed or concerned by the wide net cast by our new owners?

Personally I'm impressed.

And I firmly believe AVB will become the next boss.

Helix

plasmaguy wrote: »

And how much would Messi cost? Or Silva? Or Aguero, Tevez, Rooney or any of these small creative players/goalscorers?

Tell us a striker for less than 10 million who O'Neill should sign that is proven. And I don't think he will spend more than 10 million.

how much was ba? how much was cisse? how much was jelavic?

Midlife Crashes

Jurgen Klinnsman

plasmaguy wrote: »

I'm not sure how much of the managerial or tactical genius of Benitez was the reason for liverpool winning the CL in 2005.

1. He didn't get them into the CL in 2005, Houlier did.

2. Benitez inherited the majority of players from Houlier and previous managers.

3. They were dead and buried in the group stages, until Gerard scored a wonder goal.

4. The goal against Chelsea in the semis was the dodgiest goal in CL history.

5. Benitez plan A for the CL final was blown out of the water when AC Milan went 3-0 up. He was forced to turn to a plan B. But Steven Gerard deserves far far more credit for winning that final than Rafa Benitez.

Benitez is no genius. He spent a sh*tload of money, almost bankrupted the club and did nothing to develop young players at the club, instead going for big money spendings. Yes he had occassional good wins here or there in the CL and league, but none of the consistancy to win the league.

The rose tinted glasses always come out looking at the Benitez era. He was an average manager of Liverpool at best and he always spent big with mixed results.

But hey bring him back, don't think things will be different this time and I know some pool fans think the guy is god, but like I said the credit he deserves for winning the CL is minimal, its players like Gerard who deserve the most amount of credit.

Benitez inherited an absolutely crap team. Only he could win the Champions League with a front 3 consisting of Baros, Cisse and Smicer. They also had a defence with THIS guy in it

Admittedly he bought some bad players, but when he spent big, he spent well. People point to Robbie Keane when they want to say he was not good in the transfer market, but they only made a 5 million loss on him whereas Spurs made a 16 million loss.

JPA

Portsmouth won the FA cup but it turned out to be based on an unsustainable model.
Like MON doing well at Villa, it was not sustainable.

plasmaguy

G.K. wrote: »

Right.

Barry wasn't a MON signing for a start. You've also named the only 3 of his 26 signings which Villa made a profit on.

'Lots of good players'? At most you can say Carew, Petrov, Young, Downing, Milner, Friedel and Cuellar. 7 out of 26....

Heskey's transfer fee is only part of the thing. Factor in his wages too...

Argeed, Barry wasn't a signing, but he lost Barry who was a big loss. When you rush posts, you sometimes make unintentional mistakes.

I'm responding to 4 or 5 posters here you are responding to only one.

monkey9

plasmaguy wrote: »

I'm not sure how much of the managerial or tactical genius of Benitez was the reason for liverpool winning the CL in 2005.

1. He didn't get them into the CL in 2005, Houlier did.

2. Benitez inherited the majority of players from Houlier and previous managers.

3. They were dead and buried in the group stages, until Gerard scored a wonder goal.

4. The goal against Chelsea in the semis was the dodgiest goal in CL history.

5. Benitez plan A for the CL final was blown out of the water when AC Milan went 3-0 up. He was forced to turn to a plan B. But Steven Gerard deserves far far more credit for winning that final than Rafa Benitez.

Benitez is no genius. He spent a sh*tload of money, almost bankrupted the club and did nothing to develop young players at the club, instead going for big money spendings. Yes he had occassional good wins here or there in the CL and league, but none of the consistancy to win the league.

The rose tinted glasses always come out looking at the Benitez era. He was an average manager of Liverpool at best and he always spent big with mixed results.

But hey bring him back, don't think things will be different this time and I know some pool fans think the guy is god, but like I said the credit he deserves for winning the CL is minimal, its players like Gerard who deserve the most amount of credit.

Jesus Christ!!!! What the f*ck is this sh!t?????

Rafa Benitez 'almost bankrupted the club'????? My God. That's some piece of sh!t right there, even ignoring the rest of that bizarre post!

Owen_S

Rafael Benitez

Owen_S wrote: »

LOL are people really comparing Heskey and Arshavin in a thread about potential Liverpool managers?

I now believe that there is some sort of mistake in the thread title.

plasmaguy

Right, things to do now, was fun people, we must do it again sometime.

plasmaguy

Helix wrote: »

martin o'neill wasn't manager when villa sold young, downing or milner. you said he had to sell plenty of top players. he didnt. he only sold barry of any note while he was villa manager

heskey cost villa more than £15m in total for 90 games and 9 goals in the league, or 111 games and 15 goals in all competitions. ba cost nothing but his wages and outscored heskey in 6 months

his signing also cost villa champions league football, because a decent system was completely changed mid season when the club needed a goalscorer, not a lump

I said while he was there or after he left, reread my post.

kitakyushu

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Admittedly he bought some bad players, but when he spent big, he spent well. People point to Robbie Keane when they want to say he was not good in the transfer market, but they only made a 5 million loss on him whereas Spurs made a 16 million loss.

How did Spurs make a loss? The bought him twice for £7m and £12m but sold him twice for £20m and £3.5m

kitakyushu

plasmaguy wrote: »

Right, things to do now, .

Watching the 100 Stevie G goals DVD again?

Helix

plasmaguy wrote: »

I said while he was there or after he left, reread my post.

im re-reading it...

plasmaguy wrote: »

After all MON sold a lot of top players and still did ok in the league.

so who were all these top players he sold when he still did ok in the league?

rossie1977

rafa spent roughly £225m in his 6 seasons at liverpool (roughly £149m in sales during that period)

in those 6 seasons liverpool qualified for the champions league in 5 out of 6 seasons, they got to two finals (winning one) and 2 other semi finals, they won an fa cup, got to a league cup final

liverpool highest league finish was 2nd under rafa and highest points total was 86 points (2008-09 season)

rafa finished with a win total of 55.43% at liverpool in 350 matches

MON spent roughly £123m in his 4 seasons at villa (roughly £38m in sales during that period)

villa highest league finish was 6th (achieved 3 times) and highest points total was 64 points (2009-10 season)

mon finished with a win total of 42.11% at villa in 190 matches