If Alex Ferguson Repeated His 86-90 Tenure In This Era, Would He Have Been Sacked??

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LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Surely that would have happened anyway in the aftermath of Heysel and Hillsborough?

The money put into the game by "commercial deals" has been the main driving force behind the development, re-development of stadia into comfortable places to go for a couple of hours.

Without that money, all the reports in the world wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference if the clubs couldn't have afforded to make the necessary changes.

Fact is, the commercialisation of the game has had a hugely positive impact on the improvement of football from a fan perspective.

Fúck me Lloyd, you are a fan of some of the most commercial sports in the world, with your love for the NFL you know what money and commercialisation brings to sports.

kippy

Des wrote: »

The money put into the game by "commercial deals" has been the main driving force behind the development, re-development of stadia into comfortable places to go for a couple of hours.

Without that money, all the reports in the world wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference if the clubs couldn't have afforded to make the necessary changes.

Fact is, the commercialisation of the game has had a hugely positive impact on the improvement of football from a fan perspective.

Fúck me Lloyd, you are a fan of some of the most commercial sports in the world, with your love for the NFL you know what money and commercialisation brings to sports.

Would this be a good time to start a second thread?
It is an interesting topic.

marwelie

Liam O wrote: »

yeah he had nothing to do with that though, he just got lucky...

What changed United was the signings of Keane and Cantona. Fergie pulled all the stops to get Keane and it paid off. Still don't know how he convinced Fotherby and Wilkinson to sell Cantona for so little more than they paid for him too...

If you think he got lucky with the Class of 92 you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. There was no youth system in place when Fergie took over. He completely resurrected and redesigned it and scouted thousands of kids to get the class of 92. The fact that 7-8 kids from that team ended up in the first team was a result of very hard work and not luck.

I'll give you that without Cantona United wouldn't have won the league in 1993 especially after the disappointment of the year before. Eric was able to influence the Class of 92's attitude towards training and looking after themselves. Keano is a United legend but his signing wasn't as significant to the success that followed as Erics was.

Having said that Keanos performance against Juventus in the second leg of the semi final of the Champions League in 1999 (before and after he was booked) was the greatest I will ever witness from someone wearing a United shirt. We wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to win the treble without him.

chopperbyrne

This is Manchester Uniteds performance from 1980 - 1986

1980-81 - 8th
1981-82 - 3rd
1982-83 - 3rd (FA Cup Winner, League Cup Runner Up)
1983-84 - 4th (Charity Shield Winner)
1984-85 - 4th (FA Cup Winner)
1985-86 - 4th

Consistently in the top four and winning some domestic trophies.

So yes, Ferguson would have been sacked in this era if he had the same start at the club.

chopperbyrne

chopperbyrne wrote: »

This is Manchester Uniteds performance from 1980 - 1986

1980-81 - 8th
1981-82 - 3rd
1982-83 - 3rd (FA Cup Winner, League Cup Runner Up)
1983-84 - 4th (Charity Shield Winner)
1984-85 - 4th (FA Cup Winner)
1985-86 - 4th

Consistently in the top four and winning some domestic trophies.

So yes, Ferguson would have been sacked in this era if he had the same start at the club.

Back in the day when finishing 4th meant fcuk all and no 1 was everything.

Different times indeed.

stovelid

rarnes1 wrote: »

Different times indeed.

Maybe better times. :pac:

marwelie

Liam O wrote: »

Still don't know how he convinced Fotherby and Wilkinson to sell Cantona for so little more than they paid for him too...

chopperbyrne wrote: »

1985-86 - 4th

Won 10 out of first 11 games of the season in 1985-86 (drew the 11th) and still didn't win the league that year.

Leeds wanted rid of Cantona because Wilkinson couldn't control him. They got him for nothing from Sheffield Wednesday where he was on trial and abandoned ship early. There were also allegations concerning the crossover of his private life and the spouse of one of his LUFC team-mates (allegedly ) So technically United fans can thank the management of our biggest rivals of the past (and possibly the future) for beginning our dominance of English football over the last 20 years. They should never have rung up looking to buy Denis Irwin

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marwelie wrote: »

Leeds wanted rid of Cantona because Wilkinson couldn't control him. There were also allegations concerning the crossover of his private life and the spouse of one of his LUFC team-mates (allegedly )

the alleegations about some chap, but I can't remember the man's name

marwelie

Des wrote: »

the alleegations about some chap, but I can't remember the man's name

I see what you did there

lordgoat

G.K. wrote: »

Because they seemed to only value Cantona as an impact sub, I think...

Des wrote: »

the alleegations about some chap, but I can't remember the man's name

The story goes, Leeds inquired about Irwin, SAF was told Leeds were asking about him, he said no chance- but ask them if Cantona is available.


It's around the 32min mark of this doc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2GKahDp46M


It had just come to light he was playing a blinder with Lee Chapmans missus (allegedly) and Leeds wanted rid of him.

the realpigiron

Blatter wrote: »

Yes, but Ferguson is an anomaly.

His period should not be used as a serious reference in relation to all managers that get sacked today after a poor season or two.

He broke the Old Firm dominance in Scotland and had won a European competition with Aberdeen, beating Real Madrid in the final. He was young and it was clear he had the talent to be a top manager, if he was persisted with.

He would have been sacked if he lost an FA Cup 3rd round tie in January 1990. The press at the time were speculating about who would take over when Ferguson was sacked with Steve Coppell tipped for the job. They won that 3rd round game and went on to win the FA Cup.

The FA Cup wouldn't save the job of a manager of a big club now either. The answer to the op's question is yes he would be sacked today with the record he had in his first 4 years at Old Trafford.

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What was Atkinson's time in the job/record?

Blatter

AgileMyth wrote: »

Villas Boas didn't last too long and there are many comparisons to be drawn there.

Similarities, yes, but did Ferguson ever lose the dressing room in the manner that AVB appeared to have done?

the realpigiron wrote: »

He would have been sacked if he lost an FA Cup 3rd round tie in January 1990. The press at the time were speculating about who would take over when Ferguson was sacked with Steve Coppell tipped for the job. They won that 3rd round game and went on to win the FA Cup.

The FA Cup wouldn't save the job of a manager of a big club now either. The answer to the op's question is yes he would be sacked today with the record he had in his first 4 years at Old Trafford.

I know, that is why I started my post with 'yes'. I never said he wouldn't have been sacked in the modern era if his first few years were to be repeated and I do think a lot of managers are sacked unfairly these days.

I was just pointing out that Ferguson's early days should not always be used as proof as to why an under performing manager should always be given more time.

Jimmy Iovine

Des wrote: »

What was Atkinson's time in the job/record?

He was manager for 5 years, from June '81 to November '86.

In that period he won 2 FA Cups and a Charity Shield. Amazingly his win record was exactly 50%. 292 games played, 146 won, 67 lost and 79 draws.

United finished 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th and 4th in the league in the 5 seasons he was in charge for.

Hulk Hands

Is the Pallister signing being derided by the OP? Awesome signing, people forget how brilliant he was

the realpigiron

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Is the Pallister signing being derided by the OP? Awesome signing, people forget how brilliant he was

Pallister was one of the reasons Ferguson was under severe pressure. He paid 2 million for Pallister - big money at the time - and it took Pallister a bit of time to find his feet at United. Ferguson was severely criticised for selling McGrath for 750 thousand and allowing Kevin Moran to leave on a free while replacing them with Pallister who initially was an expensive flop. Pallister eventually found form and went on to succeed as center half for United.

kippy

the realpigiron wrote: »

Pallister was one of the reasons Ferguson was under severe pressure. He paid 2 million for Pallister - big money at the time - and it took Pallister a bit of time to find his feet at United. Ferguson was severely criticised for selling McGrath for 750 thousand and allowing Kevin Moran to leave on a free while replacing them with Pallister who initially was an expensive flop. Pallister eventually found form and went on to succeed as center half for United.

A big lesson to learn there as well.
While this topic is about managers, often times people write off players far too easily as well.

Brain Stroking

daithijjj wrote: »

Settle down lad, come out from behind the wall of sandbags and check the OP out, barely a fleeting interest in the Soccer forum imo.

The jist of the point is true, its simple, remove Ferguson from the title and stick anyone in who got a few years of time to build something back in the day. Its hardly a wind up, Alex Ferguson agrees with it.

Can we not discuss how the game has changed without waving our delicate pink bits over the internet?

Are you saying i shouldnt listen to you as all you post about is Liverpool?

kitakyushu

Very interesting question. I've no doubt Ferguson would have been sacked. He hung on by the skin of his teeth by winning the FA Cup in 1990 but that trophy is relatively worthless in the modern era and wouldn't have saved his job this time around. Likewise his past glories wouldn't have counted for anything either. AVB broke points records in Portugal and won the Europa League and likewise he was gone in 6 months.

Just ask yourself the question what other manager in England was given seven years to win a league title in the modern era? I can't think of any. Rafa Benitez won the CL (which has about the same percieved modern day value as the old FA cup - ie it's the second big trophy clubs now want) so I reckon that's why he got a good run and so much breathing room. He basically did a Ferguson and bought himself a lot of time with a valuable trophy.

Borat_Sagdiyev

kippy wrote: »

A big lesson to learn there as well.
While this topic is about managers, often times people write off players far too easily as well.

As much as McGrath went on to have a great career after United, Ferguson was correct to let him go.

He wanted rid of the drinking culture that had plagued United at the time. McGrath just couldn't stay away from the booze ( in his book he talks about being picked up by Villa teammates to go to training and begging them to stop at the offie for a few cans FFS ).

There is no way he would have had the success he has had if he had not addressed the drinking issues there at the time.

kippy

Borat_Sagdiyev wrote: »

As much as McGrath went on to have a great career after United, Ferguson was correct to let him go.

He wanted rid of the drinking culture that had plagued United at the time. McGrath just couldn't stay away from the booze ( in his book he talks about being picked up by Villa teammates to go to training and begging them to stop at the offie for a few cans FFS ).

There is no way he would have had the success he has had if he had not addressed the drinking issues there at the time.

Was talking about Pallister tbh.

Borat_Sagdiyev

kippy wrote: »

Was talking about Pallister tbh.

Sorry totally misread your post then.

plasmaguy

Draupnir wrote: »

Two people are to thank for Ferguson getting the time to work at his project and they sure as hell aren't Mark Robins and Eric Cantona.

They are Martin Edwards and Matt Busby.

Do you even remember the period in question?

He was as good as gone but for Robbins goal against Notts Forest.

United would not have won the league in 1992/93 without Cantona. Before he came they went through a run of 6 games without scoring a goal. After Cantona arrived they started banging them in all over the place and he was central to that.

Other people had an influence over whether Ferguson stayed or went, I've no problem with that, but to say Robbins and Cantona had no influence on whether he survived is daft.

the realpigiron

plasmaguy wrote: »

Do you even remember the period in question?

He was as good as gone but for Robbins goal against Notts Forest.

He obviously doesn't remember. I remember it, Ferguson would definitely have been sacked if he lost that 3rd round tie, and he was under pressure to win every game up to and including the final in that FA Cup run as well.

Ferguson had spent a lot of money and had got rid of big names, he was staring down the barrel. Mark Robins above anyone else is the reason Ferguson is still manager of Man U today. If Robins didn't score that day none of the rest of what Ferguson achieved at Man U would have happened.

plasmaguy

FA Cup definitely bought him some time, a year or two, provided he finished well in the league.

His signings were average enough before Cantona.

They only looked great when they started scoring goals and winning things. If they didn't win the league, people would be saying signings like Pallister, Bruce, Schmicheal, McClair were flops.

marwelie

plasmaguy wrote: »

FA Cup definitely bought him some time, a year or two, provided he finished well in the league.

His signings were average enough before Cantona.

They only looked great when they started scoring goals and winning things. If they didn't win the league, people would be saying signings like Pallister, Bruce, Schmichel, McClair were flops.

Rubbish, all 4 would have regarded as some of the greatest players ever to play for United irrespective of results. Of the 4 only Pally had a dodgy start, he had a disaster on his debut. Schmeichel will forever be recognised as the greatest goalkeeper ever to play for United, Bruce and Pallister the greatest centre half pairing (yes, even better than Ferdinand and Vidic) and McClair was the first striker to score 20+ league goals in a season since George Best.

He also re-signed Mark Hughes, and there are not many players who are deemed good enough to get a second chance at OT. Fergie knows a decent player when he sees one

LuckyLloyd

Des wrote: »

Fúck me Lloyd, you are a fan of some of the most commercial sports in the world, with your love for the NFL you know what money and commercialisation brings to sports.

But the NFL do it right, the whole hog. Access to every game of every season, salary caps, prime time tv scheduling, insightful media. Football irks me, it's halfway in a bunch of respects...