Back in my day...

hooradiation

prinz wrote: »

Yeah I mean what kind of experience would teachers and school principals have of the changing attitudes of children over the years.

Are you suggesting they're immune to the same cognitive bias as the rest of us?

How simply fascinating, please tell me more.....

ScumLord

prinz wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/violent-behaviour-on-the-increase-in-primary-schools-survey-reveals-2181333.html

If only these women where kept under lock and key until their wedding day like in the good old days. It's almost impossible to keep them in line now that you can't beat them into submission any more.

prinz

hooradiation wrote: »

Are you suggesting they're immune to the same cognitive bias as the rest of us?.....

I'm suggesting that they don't read a newspaper and then decide everything has changed in the space of a couple of years... and not only a few teachers but the majority of those in numerous surveys.

I find it amusing that if you suggested kids are getting fatter nobody would bat an eyelid.

The King of Moo

prinz wrote: »

I'm suggesting that they don't read a newspaper and then decide everything has changed in the space of a couple of years... and not only a few teachers but the majority of those in numerous surveys.

I find it amusing that if you suggested kids are getting fatter nobody would bat an eyelid.

But everyone feels like that, it's human nature. Everyone thinks things were better in the old days, but facts usually tell us that in a lot of ways they weren't.
People have always felt like that, and probably always will. (though people were better at complaining about kids in the past :pac:)

I think what's crucial is that those were just surveys of opinions, without much in the way of statistics, it seems.

Battered Mars Bar

Very common crime OP, always has been unfortunately. However the rise of this hippidy hoppidy music is a matter of grave concern. If kids today aren't pretending to be african american they're trying to be hippies

prinz

The King of Moo wrote: »

I think what's crucial is that those were just surveys of opinions, without much in the way of statistics, it seems.

...and the increasing numbers of parents reporting being abused at the hands of their children? Nostalgia and imagination. The massive increases in the numbers of young offenders and violent crimes involving young people being recorded.... oh it's the fault of the court system.

How do you put a statistic on an attitude problem?

hooradiation

prinz wrote: »

I'm suggesting that they don't read a newspaper and then decide everything has changed in the space of a couple of years... and not only a few teachers but the majority of those in numerous surveys.

Oh good.
Well thanks for clearing that up, I was worried you were trying to say something relevant to the whole cognitive bias thing.
The best part is that the way you refute this is linking of surveys of people opinions.

*slow clap*

prinz wrote: »

I find it amusing that if you suggested kids are getting fatter nobody would bat an eyelid.

The thing about weight is it's actually quantifiable, whereas peoples perceptions of those darn kids isn't.

The King of Moo

prinz wrote: »

...and the increasing numbers of parents reporting being abused at the hands of their children? Nostalgia and imagination. The massive increases in the numbers of young offenders and violent crimes involving young people being recorded.... oh it's the fault of the court system.

How do you put a statistic on an attitude problem?

It might be a case of more reports, but not necessarily a much greater number of crimes.

I imagine in the case of parental abuse, many parents in the past would've failed to report it out of fear or ridicule.

GAAman

hairyprincess wrote: »

He needs rehabilitation. But will he get it? Doubtful.

His parents should be held to account to some extent

I am so very thankful that you are not actually in a position to pass judgement on people.

prinz

hooradiation wrote: »

The thing about weight is it's actually quantifiable, whereas peoples perceptions of those darn kids isn't.

How quantifiable is the increase in young offenders? Or again is that just imagination?

GAAman

Domo230 wrote: »

You forgot to blame video games. :pac:

And Marilyn Manson!

prinz

The King of Moo wrote: »

It might be a case of more reports, but not necessarily a much greater number of crimes..

It might be. Or it might be that young people are committing more violent crimes than before.

The King of Moo wrote: »

I imagine in the case of parental abuse, many parents in the past would've failed to report it out of fear or ridicule.

Again, looking for anything to pretend like the attitudes and mindset of many children haven't changed over the years. I have read a lot of stuff about how technology and modern lifestyles are leading to increased cases of depression and mental health issues etc.. but to suggest anything could be affecting kids? That must be nonsense. Kids have aaaaaaaaaaaaaalways been the same. Only adults get affected by the changing world around them.

hooradiation

prinz wrote: »

How quantifiable is the increase in young offenders? Or again is that just imagination?

an increase in the rate or reporting is just that. An increase in the reporting rate, it does not follow that things are worse now then when you were a lad.


Children have always been little shits, this generation is no better or worse, stop pretending otherwise.

The King of Moo

GAAman wrote: »

I am so very thankful that you are not actually in a position to pass judgement on people.

Do you think parents have no influence on their children?

hairyprincess

GAAman wrote: »

hairyprincess wrote: »

He needs rehabilitation. But will he get it? Doubtful.

His parents should be held to account to some extent

I am so very thankful that you are not actually in a position to pass judgement on people.

What on earth does that mean?

GAAman

The King of Moo wrote: »

Do you think parents have no influence on their children?

I was actually about to edit my post to include this but will do so below

hairyprincess wrote: »

What on earth does that mean?

It means that you have as little information as the rest of us yet you seek to blame people who very well may have had no idea of what was going on. I have many years volunteer experience with survivors of sexual abuse and in my limited experience parents rarely know of these things unless they have sexually or physically abused the child themselves or the victim tells them.

And a clinical psychologist once told me that the latter is "Rarer than a unicorns fart"

Chuck Stone

The world has never been safer.

TED Talk below.

Steven Pinker charts the decline of violence from Biblical times to the present, and argues that, though it may seem illogical and even obscene, given Iraq and Darfur, we are living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence.

ScumLord

The King of Moo wrote: »

It might be a case of more reports, but not necessarily a much greater number of crimes.

You also have to take into account there are more crimes these days. 70 or 80 years ago drug use wasn't a crime, it was ok for the man of the house to beat everyone else in his family. Women had no rights, children had no rights, most people had no rights outside of wealthy white men. Now all those people have laws to protect them and the general public are slowly acknowledging those laws, so the crimes committed against them have obviously gone up.

prinz wrote: »

Again, looking for anything to pretend like the attitudes and mindset of many children haven't changed over the years.

Of course they've changed they live in a completely different world almost. But it seems to me they've changed for the better, many kids are aware of the global environment, are aware of their own health and are coming from better and better homes in that the childs interests are put first and the stick is longer used as a training implement.

Teens are always going to be *****, it's a stage of development that we haven't found a way of effectively guiding people through yet.

strobe

prinz wrote: »

I know, I know, but I haven't tried to argue crap like that didn't happen in the past... but the teachers, charities, police forces, etc in the links I posted earlier must be imagining things according to some.

Oh I know you haven't argued that Prinz, my post was just addressing the general "back in my day.." stuff of the thread, and some of the posts speculating on the reasoning, in general.

but... having said that. A couple of things from the links you posted.
Firstly, like others have said, teachers etc are not immune from the kind of biases and "back in my day rose tinted glasses were a penny a dozen" stuff others are effected by.

Secondly from the links you posted.

prinz wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/violent-behaviour-on-the-increase-in-primary-schools-survey-reveals-2181333.html

"Asked whether there had been an increase in violent behaviour among children enrolling in primary schools, 410 said yes, 336 said no, and 182 did not reply."

That is 54.9% of those that answered answering in the affirmative, but it's also 45.1% saying "ehhh no, don't think that's the case". It's not a massive massive difference. So I don't think it can be taken as in any way definitive when the possible bias people are talking about etc is taken into consideration. (and also that 182 didn't answer {pure speculation on my part but perhaps they didn't answer as they felt they couldn't say one way or the other..?})

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7468377.stm

"The IPPR's James Crabtree said that government targets "have resulted in the police concentrating on easier-to-solve low-level crimes committed by children and teenagers".

Paul Cavadino, Chief Executive of the crime reduction charity Nacro, said the figures did not reflect a sharp increase in youth crime.
"Instead they reflect a regrettable increase in the use of the criminal justice system for minor offences," he added.
"Government targets to increase the number of offences brought to justice have increased the prosecution of young people in cases where informal warnings would make more sense."

From your second link both James Crabtree of the IPPR who obtained and released the information and figures and this Paul Cavadino chap of Nacro seem to be in agreement that the number reflect the governments target setting to appear tougher on crime and not necessarily an increase in that crime.

http://www.tyronetimes.co.uk/news/local/41-rise-in-teenage-offenders-1-2952241

"Worryingly, the figures buck the trend for Northern Ireland as a whole, which saw a reduction in youth crime over the same period."

In your third link as above it says that youth crime offenses rose in Tyrone but that across NI youth crime offenses fell...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0122/crime.html

"There has been a significant increase in violent crime over the past year, according to new figures from the Central Statistics Office."

Your fourth link is a one off year and year comparison between 2005 and 2006 and regardless, is not specific to youth crime...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/girls-get-violent-1345290.html

This is a largely an opinion piece that suggests that along with greater equality for women, feminism and these freedoms etc have resulted in women also being more likely to be convicted of the same crimes men are.

There is a lot to get into there but we'd need four or five different threads.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/dec/31/suspended-violent-primary-school-pupils

This link discusses a rise in the number of children being expelled and suspended for violent behaviour in school.

Now, admittedly this is anecdotal... but when I was in primary and secondary school, I witnessed many a fight and there was never a question of someone getting expelled for it. You'd get suspended in secondary school all right but primary school, you were told to shake hands and stop fighting and in serious cases your parents would be called in.

I also remember my secondary school religion teacher Fr. Fergal regaling us with tales of how soft we all were in the Tallaght school despite our pretensions and that back in his day if you were in a brawl with someone you'd both get a clip around the ear and be told to take care of the problem off the school grounds in future.

I'd suggest that an increase in the number of suspensions and expulsions etc may possibly suggest a lower tolerance for and harsher punishment of this kind of bahaviour and again not necessarily a massive increase in the behaviour it's self.

etc etc...

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If there is a genuinely worrying increase in violent behaviour of the youth (:D god I feel like such an oul fella typing 'the youth') then that's something that should be addressed, certainly, but first it needs to be shown that there is, and I've yet to see that shown. It's certainly not shown in the newspaper reports that people love to read so much about how "things are scary, children will eat you" that get such regular run in the media, IMO.

BattleCorp

Sh1te like this happens because you can't discipline a child any more. To much nicey nicey stuff.

How the fcuk can you reason with a 2 or 3 year old when they are in a tantrum - you can't.

Therefore the 2 or 3 year old gets away with whatever they were doing wrong. No consequences for their bad behaviour.

This then steadily gets worse and worse as the kids grow up and "hey presto", you have a young adult out of control.

I know that this won't be popular but if someone kicked the fcuk out of that little sh1t every time he did something wrong when he was younger, I doubt he would have turned out as bad as he did.

He would have learned pretty rapidly not to do bad sh1t.

The King of Moo

BattleCorp wrote: »

Sh1te like this happens because you can't discipline a child any more. To much nicey nicey stuff.

How the fcuk can you reason with a 2 or 3 year old when they are in a tantrum - you can't.

Therefore the 2 or 3 year old gets away with whatever they were doing wrong. No consequences for their bad behaviour.

This then steadily gets worse and worse as the kids grow up and "hey presto", you have a young adult out of control.

I know that this won't be popular but if someone kicked the fcuk out of that little sh1t every time he did something wrong when he was younger, I doubt he would have turned out as bad as he did.

He would have learned pretty rapidly not to do bad sh1t.

I'm certain that violence against children will not make them socially-adjusted adults.
Violence begets violence.
And I sincerely hope the bolded parts of your post aren't related.

secretambition

There were always just as many evil people in society, they just got caught less in the past because crime detection wasn't as efficient e.g. the Catholic Church abuse. Also, I'm very close in age to the OP, and I remember the Jamie Bolger case.

BattleCorp

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'm certain that violence against children will not make them socially-adjusted adults.
Violence begets violence.

I was exaggerating to make a point. I don't mean kick the solid fcuk out of kids, but getting the odd slap when you are small does teach you that there are consequences for your actions.

I'm not a MENSA member or anything like that, but it didn't take me long to figure out that BOLD BEHAVIOUR = YOU ARE GOING TO GET A SLAP so don't do bad stuff.

I got the odd slap when I was a kid and consequently I don't go around raping 5 year old boys.

The King of Moo

BattleCorp wrote: »

I was exaggerating to make a point. I don't mean kick the solid fcuk out of kids, but getting the odd slap when you are small does teach you that there are consequences for your actions.

I'm not a MENSA member or anything like that, but it didn't take me long to figure out that BOLD BEHAVIOUR = YOU ARE GOING TO GET A SLAP so don't do bad stuff.

I got the odd slap when I was a kid and consequently I don't go around raping 5 year old boys.

I think any fourteen-year old who rapes a five-year old has severe emotional or psychological issues that an odd light slap won't solve.

If there were any signs of this, then the parents must be blamed if they didn't try to act on them.

BattleCorp

The King of Moo wrote: »

I think any fourteen-year old who rapes a five-year old has severe emotional or psychological issues that an odd light slap won't solve.

If there were any signs of this, then the parents must be blamed if they didn't try to act on them.

Yep, you are right. The fourteen year old has severe emotional or psychological issues that an odd light slap won't solve. I am totally agreed with you.

My point is that if he was disciplined as a child (2 or 3 years old), then he might have grown up to learn that bad behaviour = a slap and maybe he wouldn't be doing stuff like this.

It's too late to discipline kids when they are teenagers, they have to be taught that bad behaviour is wrong and won't be tolerated from a very a young age.

But then again, there are bad bad people out there and that's just the way they are and no amount of caring/therapy/discipline/nurture will stop them from doing bad sh1t.

Bet his parents feel really proud how he turned out :rolleyes:

strobe

BattleCorp wrote: »

Yep, you are right. The fourteen year old has severe emotional or psychological issues that an odd light slap won't solve. I am totally agreed with you.

My point is that if he was disciplined as a child (2 or 3 years old), then he might have grown up to learn that bad behaviour = a slap and maybe he wouldn't be doing stuff like this.

It's too late to discipline kids when they are teenagers, they have to be taught that bad behaviour is wrong and won't be tolerated from a very a young age.

But then again, there are bad bad people out there and that's just the way they are and no amount of caring/therapy/discipline/nurture will stop them from doing bad sh1t.

Bet his parents feel really proud how he turned out :rolleyes:

Hitting a kid isn't the only way to let them know bad behaviour won't be tolerated, or better yet, teach them the difference between right and wrong.

In the USA there are 20 states which have not banned corporal punishment in elementary schools.

Of the ten states with the highest murder rates, eight of them are states that that practice this corporal punishment.
Of the ten states with the lowest murder rates, only one of them are states that allow this corporal punishment.

Of the ten states with the highest incarceration rates, nine of them are states where it is allowed.
Of the states with the lowest incarceration rates, none of them are states where it is allowed.

But yeah, hitting kids clearly results in them being less likely to commit fucked up crimes... as you have clearly shown with your "I was smacked and therefore won't be raping 5 year old boys" argument.

prinz

strobe wrote: »

If there is a genuinely worrying increase in violent behaviour of the youth (:D god I feel like such an oul fella typing 'the youth') then that's something that should be addressed, certainly, but first it needs to be shown that there is, and I've yet to see that shown..

Fair enough with the points you raised, but as I said earlier on the thread it's not easy to quantify a change in attitude... and anything which may reflect such a change immediately gets shot down because it's do with anything other that more young people acting like scum (it's the government, the police, the media, yadda yadda.... possibly, just possibly.... there is a problem there), and tbh I wasn't even solely referring to violent behaviour, but anecdotal evidence from my side would say that people are getting a chip on their shoulder/acting hard etc at a younger age.