Shortening barrels - cut from the chamber or from the crown?

tomcat220t

Mod Note: Split from this thread on how much to shorten barrels by because this got more interesting as a side issue.

andyone wrote: »

i will be collecting my new 10/22 target shortly.... and was considering shortening the barrel.... as is it 20".. i would like to shorten it as much as possible with out loosing any accuracy..... anyone i've talked to say's take it back to 16.5"... and i know that this would increase velocity.... but i'm wondering about accuracy....????

as ye know the factory .920" barrel has a 1:16" twist and i'll only ever be shooting subs thru it....

if it was shortened more would the subsonic rounds leave the barrel supersonic... as the remainder of the barrel which would normally slow the bullet down, would be gone...????

has any one shortened theirs to 12.5".... how did this effect performance????

The correct way of shorting a .22lr barrel is from the chamber .
That will give you the best chance of not loosing accuracy .

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

The correct way of shorting a .22lr barrel is from the chamber .
That will give you the best chance of not loosing accuracy .

Can i ask how this is done? Never seen (or heard) of it being done this way.

As i understand it, if you want to shorten the barrel by 3-4 inches then it only needs to be cut, and re-crowned (at muzzle)

If you cut the same 3-4 inches at the chamber end of the barrel you are cutting away the entire chamber. So now you need to re-chamber, and re-thread the barrel . This is fine is you have a bull barrel that has a consistent diameter/profile from the action to the muzzle. If you have a tapered profile though and cut away 3-4 inches then the point (on the barrel) you now have to re-thread to screw back into the action will be of a smaller/lesser diameter than the action, and not work.

Apart from all that a cut, and re-crown would be cheaper than cut, re-thread, and re-chambering.

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

Can i ask how this is done? Never seen (or heard) of it being done this way.

As i understand it, if you want to shorten the barrel by 3-4 inches then it only needs to be cut, and re-crowned (at muzzle)

If you cut the same 3-4 inches at the chamber end of the barrel you are cutting away the entire chamber. So now you need to re-chamber, and re-thread the barrel . This is fine is you have a bull barrel that has a consistent diameter/profile from the action to the muzzle. If you have a tapered profile though and cut away 3-4 inches then the point (on the barrel) you now have to re-thread to screw back into the action will be of a smaller/lesser diameter than the action, and not work.

Apart from all that a cut, and re-crown would be cheaper than cut, re-thread, and re-chambering.

At the risk of sounding smart .......can i ask you who said cut+recrown at the muzzle is the correct way to shorten a .22lr barrel and maintain its accuracy ?

clivej

tomcat220t wrote: »

At the risk of sounding smart .......can i ask you who said cut+recrown at the muzzle is the correct way to shorten a .22lr barrel and maintain its accuracy ?

Of the 3 gunsmiths that I have talked to they will always say to take it off the muzzel end.

Nerver, never heard of shortening a barrel from the chamber. I would seem to me you will be upsetting/introducing to many variables by cutting off the chamber.

tomcat220t

clivej wrote: »

Of the 3 gunsmiths that I have talked to they will always say to take it off the muzzel end.

Nerver, never heard of shortening a barrel from the chamber. I would seem to me you will be upsetting/introducing to many variables by cutting off the chamber.

No offence to whom you were speaking to Clive , but its not the correct way to shorten a .22lr barrel ..
Are you sure they ment exactly what your claiming ?
Were any of theses Irish gunsmiths ?

clivej

tomcat220t wrote: »

No offence to whom you were speaking to Clive , but its not the correct way to shorten a .22lr barrel ..
Are you sure they ment exactly what your claiming ?
Were any of theses Irish gunsmiths ?

3 Irish gunsmiths and who are you quoting as telling you your info??

Can't find any reference to what your talking about.

hacksaw the barrel off
http://www.castbullet.com/misc/hack.htm

rowa

tomcat220t wrote: »

No offence to whom you were speaking to Clive , but its not the correct way to shorten a .22lr barrel ..
Are you sure they ment exactly what your claiming ?
Were any of theses Irish gunsmiths ?

How could you shorten from the chamber end ? The diameter is normally much less along the barrel so how could you rethread the barrel ? It would be far too small unless it was a bull barrel.
I have heard of the barrel being shortened slightly and rethreaded at the chamber end to allow a tighter match chamber to be recut , especially on a semi which have sloppy chambers from the factory to ensure good feeding.

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

At the risk of sounding smart .......can i ask you who said cut+recrown at the muzzle is the correct way to shorten a .22lr barrel and maintain its accuracy ?

I never said it was the right way. I said it was the way i've always seen, and heard of it being done.

tomcat220t wrote: »

No offence to whom you were speaking to Clive , but its not the correct way to shorten a .22lr barrel ..
Are you sure they ment exactly what your claiming ?
Were any of theses Irish gunsmiths ?

I notice you still have not answered either my question or Clive's. So without deflecting by answering a question with a question could you please explain it to me how or why it's done at the chamber and how it is more accurate to do it this way than the "normal" way?

I'm genuinely curious.

Sandy22

Ezridax wrote: »

explain it to me how or why it's done at the chamber and how it is more accurate to do it this way than the "normal" way?

It's because a lot of the barrels intended for really high-level accuracy in .22LR are deliberately built with a small amount of choke at the muzzle. With due respect to Clive we're not talking about Rugers here, so he wouldn't be expected to know that. Obviously if you lop a couple of inches off the muzzle, the choke is lost. Coincidentally, many of these barrels are untapered, so moving the profile "backwards" isn't a problem.

It's well established that a little choke is beneficial for accuracy in shooting unjacketed / soft-lead bullets. I believe it's also applied to high-accuracy air rifles.

tomcat220t

Sandy22 wrote: »

It's because a lot of the barrels intended for really high-level accuracy in .22LR are deliberately built with a small amount of choke at the muzzle. With due respect to Clive we're not talking about Rugers here, so he wouldn't be expected to know that. Obviously if you lop a couple of inches off the muzzle, the choke is lost. Coincidentally, many of these barrels are untapered, so moving the profile "backwards" isn't a problem.

It's well established that a little choke is beneficial for accuracy in shooting unjacketed / soft-lead bullets. I believe it's also applied to high-accuracy air rifles.

100 %
This simply fact has been known for well over 30 years and the few gunsmiths ive dealt with here in Ireland , dismiss this basic fact and lob off from the crown :o:o.
Even budget rifles makers are using this technique for years .
Gunsmiths.......:rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Sparks

Sandy, are you sure that's still being done today, deliberately? I always thought the variation in Anschutz barrels was an artifact of the button rifling rather than a sought-after thing; and Shilen make a really big deal about how they don't do this for their top-of-the-line barrels or their second-tier barrels for that matter, and they're up there as one of the best .22lr barrel manufacturers out there. FLOYDSTER could correct me here, but I thought Lilja's drop-in anschutz replacement barrels were the same; no choke, just really precise manufacturing and rifling.

Cass

Sandy22 wrote: »

It's because a lot of the barrels intended for really high-level accuracy in .22LR are deliberately built with a small amount of choke at the muzzle.... .

Finally an explanation. Thanks. I understand the line of thinking, but in relation to this:

With due respect to Clive we're not talking about Rugers here,

That's exactly what the OP is discussing.

andyone wrote: »

i will be collecting my new 10/22 target shortly.... and was considering shortening the barrel....

So would it work on a Ruger? If it is so much better why do gunsmiths shorten from the muzzle? Is it to reduce the cost to the customer? As with my post above i understand how each way can be done, but the only benefit i could see was cost. Accuracy levels must not drop that much if gunsmiths still do it from the muzzle end.

So is it still done. how many gunsmiths still use this process. If 3 out of 4 gunsmiths use the muzzle end then are those three wrong, and the sole one doing it from the chamber right. Also how does that single smith explain the increase in cost. A fairly substantial one i would imagine at that. Having to re-thread the barrel, re-chamber the barrel. More expensive than cutting the amount of the end of the barrel then simply re-crowning.

Excuse all the questions, but having never heard of any gunsmith do it this way i'm curious why if it is the correct method why more gunsmiths, from anywhere, are not using it.

tomcat220t wrote:

100 %

That's all i was asking you for earlier on.

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

I never said it was the right way. I said it was the way i've always seen, and heard of it being done.

I notice you still have not answered either my question or Clive's. So without deflecting by answering a question with a question could you please explain it to me how or why it's done at the chamber and how it is more accurate to do it this way than the "normal" way?

I'm genuinely curious.

Chopping from the crown end of a .22lr is a no/on without first slugging the barrel to find out the tightest spot .
That spot is where the crown will best benefit for accuracy .
Any other shortening should come from the chamber side after that .
Most .22lr match blanks come with a slight choke and any gunsmith worth his/her salt will still slug the bore to find the exact spot to crown the barrel from .
This is been known for many years around the world of gunsmithing .

tomcat220t

clivej wrote: »

And the OP ask how short is too short 10/22 not about benchrest target barrels. I always thought it was more to do with the head of a .22lr pushing into the rifling at the chamber that made the difference.

Like on my 10/22 Lothar Walther match barrel where a proprietary chamber reamer is used to ensure the cartridge and bullet feed smoothly while allowing the bullet to consistently engrave the rifling .020". This with the 11 degree crown makes it consistently accurate, but not to that of a custom benchrest rifle.

C/Z choke their barrels and are nearly half the price of the Op Target 10/22 rifle .Im willing to bet that the ruger target barrel has some kind of tighten around the muzzle ...either way it can be slugged to find out .

Cass

If this "tightening" does not exist. Should they still cut from the chamber?

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

If this "tightening" does not exist. Should they still cut from the chamber?

If it has no choke at all at the muzzle it wont be much of a shooter!!!! ......A "Gunsmith " would lap the barrel most of the way down and leave the last bit at the muzzle alone ..thus creating a choke .
Most good Gunsmiths lap their blank match .22lr barrels to suit their specs, regardless of make !
Reason this service is not offered by some guys here is its an art to correctly lap a .22lr barrel .
All the more reason guys should be at least aware of the fact the most .22lrs are choked and to shorten from the chamber end would be best bet to retain accuracy !

Cass

So if a barrel has no choke it is "useless"? I would be curious as to which manufacturers, both of rifles, and just barrels, use this process.

This brings me back to me previous question. Cost.

If a lad wanted to shorten a barrel, and was quoted say €150 for a cut, and re-crown. Then he went to another smith, and he said it would cost (guessing here) €600 because he has to cut the chamber, re-chamber the barrel, re-thread the barrel, hand lap the bore and then re-fit. Which would a lad choose?

Also is there really that much of a difference? has there been any testing to show that a barrel cut, re-chambered, re-thread, lapped is in anyway more effective than a cut at the muzzle and re-crowned. IOW i know of work done to some rifles that improves accuracy, but on such a slight scale that it is almost unnoticeable. Also the actual act of lapping, etc. Do gunsmiths here have the equipment to accurately measure the variance in the bore when lapping?

Finally the issue of a choked bore. Would it not lead to be build up of lead or copper at the muzzle that when in the first half of the barrel would not be an issue, but if this build up occurs at the muzzle where the bore is choked and hence not enough room for such a build up would this not lead to a loss in accuracy quicker than a barrel that has a continuously consistent bore diameter from chamber to muzzle. Or is it a case of only being effective o rimfires (lead bullets) rather than fullbores (jacketed bullets).

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

If it has no choke at all at the muzzle it wont be much of a shooter!

Shilen disagree, even for Ruger barrels.
I'm not saying that Anschutz don't do it; I'm just saying it doesn't appear to be the kind of thing that is universally accepted.
I think this is up there with cleaning smallbore rifles and using WD-40; some people say one thing, others say the opposite, and there doesn't seem to be any accepted proven answer with supporting data.

All the more reason guys should be at least aware of the fact the most .22lrs are choked and to shorten from the chamber end would be best bet to retain accuracy !

I really don't think that's going to be true in all circumstances, especially not when you're talking about barrels that aren't bull barrels in profile, and don't get easily pinned into the receiver like an Anschutz 20xx series does.
I mean, if you have a tapered profile like this:



How do you cut that at the chamber end by more than (D - threaded length)?

tomcat220t

Ezridax wrote: »

So if a barrel has no choke it is "useless"? I would be curious as to which manufacturers, both of rifles, and just barrels, use this process.

Lux and Standard models are 22”. American, Varmint, Style, Silhouette are 20”. These models are also available in 16”. We do not recommend the cutting down of any CZ barrel due to the fact that they are hammer forged and are actually choked at the muzzle to maximise accuracy which is one of the reasons CZ rifles are renowned for their accuracy. There is also no guarantee that the bore is actually dead centre to the outside diameter in the middle of the barrel. Shortening the barrel will also invalidate the warranty. CZ rifle barrels are hammer forged from solid billets for that particular barrel length; even the 16” barrel has a special billet for the shorter barrel. If you want a shorter barrel part ex your old rifle and get a new rifle with a new three year guarantee!

The above is from an international CZ wholesaler

Perhaps you are more qualified to explain to CZ where they are going wrong with their rifling process:P

Ezridax wrote: »

This brings me back to me previous question. Cost.

If a lad wanted to shorten a barrel, and was quoted say €150 for a cut, and re-crown. Then he went to another smith, and he said it would cost (guessing here) €600 because he has to cut the chamber, re-chamber the barrel, re-thread the barrel, hand lap the bore and then re-fit. Which would a lad choose?

€600 :rolleyes:.....

Around half that for a re-chamber.

Ezridax wrote: »

Also is there really that much of a difference? has there been any testing to show that a barrel cut, re-chambered, re-thread, lapped is in anyway more effective than a cut at the muzzle and re-crowned. IOW i know of work done to some rifles that improves accuracy, but on such a slight scale that it is almost unnoticeable. Also the actual act of lapping, etc. Do gunsmiths here have the equipment to accurately measure the variance in the bore when lapping?

If some of the guys overs here had the correct knowledge and technique required, measuring the variance in the bore is quite cheap and simple.

Ezridax wrote: »

Finally the issue of a choked bore. Would it not lead to be build up of lead or copper at the muzzle that when in the first half of the barrel would not be an issue, but if this build up occurs at the muzzle where the bore is choked and hence not enough room for such a build up would this not lead to a loss in accuracy quicker than a barrel that has a continuously consistent bore diameter from chamber to muzzle. Or is it a case of only being effective o rimfires (lead bullets) rather than fullbores (jacketed bullets).

Again one of the most popular and successful brands of .22lr CZ choke their barrels.

Have you seen any of your concerns about copper or lead build up at the muzzle of a CZ choked barrels?

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Perhaps you are more qualified to explain to CZ where they are going wrong with their rifling process:P

I don't think CZ are well-known for making the best barrels in the world. They specialise in cheap rifles, from what I know. Lilja and Shilen are known as barrel manufacturers though, and Shilen make a big deal about not choking.

Honestly, I think this is not "basic" information in any sense of the word, and I think you'd find it has historical origins that no longer apply for our current manufacturing standards for match-grade barrels and ammunition.

If some of the guys overs here had the correct knowledge and technique required, measuring the variance in the bore is quite cheap and simple.

I think you might find that their achieved standards do not quite bear out the degree of implied contempt you're bringing to your posts so far...

Again one of the most popular and successful brands of .22lr CZ choke their barrels.

But CZ are cheap rifles. They're not designed to be the most accurate rifle out there, but to be "good enough". You're taking an argument about a really esoteric part of the market and applying it to a mass manufacturer.

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

Perhaps you are more qualified to explain to CZ where they are going wrong with their rifling process:P

Like yourself i'm no gunsmith so i'll leave manufacturers that use this process to their wears.

€600 :rolleyes:.....

Around half that for a re-chamber.

Fair enough. No idea what a re-chambering costs as i've never had it done. However thats to re-chamber what about cutting the barrel, re-threading or smithing it to re-attach to the action? Is that free?

If some of the guys overs here had the correct knowledge and technique required, measuring the variance in the bore is quite cheap and simple.

'm sure they do, but choose to provide the most popular style of barrel shortening to keep the customer, and their pockets/wallets happy.

Again one of the most popular and successful brands of .22lr CZ choke their barrels.

Have you seen any of your concerns about copper or lead build up at the muzzle of a CZ choked barrels?

Never really paid it any mind to be honest, but then again my CZ was never used for the type of shooting that requires the accuracy to which to say will be lost. In fact i've yet to see a CZ take the "title" when faced against Anschutz, Feinwerkbau, Walthar, Bleiker, etc. As in the match grade barrels you referenced above.

You have mentioned one brand out of dozens. Would be interesting to see how many manufacturers actually use the rifling method necessary to produce this choke at the muzzle or even lap their barrels to produce this choke at the muzzle. Also to know which gunsmiths in Ireland apply this method of barrel shortening, chambering, re-threading, and lapping.

tomcat220t

https://www.volquartsen.com/products/541-stainless-muzzleweighted-barrel


This company is at the forefront of the worlds most accurate 10/22 rifles !
They see the importance of choked .22lr barrels!

rowa

"What is important is that the bore and groove dimensions are uniform down the length of the barrel, that the twist rate is uniform and that the groove circle is concentric with the bore. Many think a slight choke at the muzzle end of a ten thousandth or so will improve accuracy. But bench rest shooters have shown that parallel barrels seem to win more matches than choked ones. The exception is barrels which shoot lead bullets, like .22 Rimfire barrels and air rifle barrels. These barrels definitely shoot better if there is a slight choking in the barrel. The barrel should also be completely free of stress so that as it warms up during a course of fire the barrel does not bend so leading to group shifting".

Taken from this article

http://firearmsid.com/feature%20articles/rifledbarrelmanuf/barrelmanufacture.htm

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

I think you might find you'd change your opinion on that if you ran into trouble!

That's going to be deeply relevant when you see 10/22 rifles winning benchrest matches and the Olympics. Until then though, I'd look more to Lilja and Shilen.

Shilen & Lilja ect... are some of the best rimfire barrels on the market but are useless without a world-class gunsmith to create a world class rifle ,Agree???
Who would you regard as a worldclass .22lr riflesmith ?
One name comes to my mind ,Bill Calfree !

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Shilen & Lilja ect... are some of the best rimfire barrels on the market but are useless without a world-class gunsmith to create a world class rifle ,Agree???

I disagree with what you mean, though what you say doesn't have much wrong with it
Basicly, compared to making the barrel, which is hard, and making the action, which is hard, joining the two could be done by almost anyone, especially with actions like the Anschutz 2011, which is designed for this.
You don't need a guy with a lathe to fit a shilen barrel to a 2013 rifle.

Who would you regard as a worldclass .22lr riflesmith ?
One name comes to my mind ,Bill Calfree !

Calfee, but no, I'd go to Bleiker.

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

I disagree with what you mean, though what you say doesn't have much wrong with it
Basicly, compared to making the barrel, which is hard, and making the action, which is hard, joining the two could be done by almost anyone, especially with actions like the Anschutz 2011, which is designed for this.
You don't need a guy with a lathe to fit a shilen barrel to a 2013 rifle.


Calfee, but no, I'd go to Bleiker.

Bleiker ,anschutz ect... are not the F1 of the .22lrs :rolleyes:
50 br nationals in the usa .....wont see many if any factory rifles in the top runnings !
Since your talking top end of .22lr accuracy they are mostly custom jobs at that level .
You do need top components , lathe and most of all a guy top of his game to be in the running at that level of gunsmithing .
Simply bolting an out of the box match barrel to a 2013 or a Bleiker wont cut the mustard !

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Bleiker ,anschutz ect... are not the F1 of the .22lrs :rolleyes:

Okay. So we're talking about 10/22 accuracy; then you're talking about hand-made barrels on 50lb rigs in the US benchrest matches (and here, we're not talking about rifles anymore, we're talking about what are essentially
mounted guns in .22lr) and saying that these are much better than Bleiker and therefore you're right about how you cut a Ruger 10/22 barrel...


tomcat, there's a fair bit of confusion here.
Especially since most of the benchrest rigs you're talking about don't do the choked-at-the-muzzle thing because they've found through testing that it's not the best approach.

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

Calfee, but no, I'd go to Bleiker.

Bleiker .22lrs use Lilja barrels .
Lilja have a taper in their bore, ie choke !

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Lilja have a taper in their bore, ie choke !

Taper isn't the same thing as choke. Taper refers to the contour of the barrel (ie. the outside contour). Eg (and these are for lilja):

Standard contour barrel


Straight taper contour barrel

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

Taper isn't the same thing as choke. Taper refers to the contour of the barrel (ie. the outside contour). Eg (and these are for lilja):

Standard contour barrel


Straight taper contour barrel

Totally incorrect ,Sparks
Im surprised you came up with such a reply !
PM me if you want ?

Vegeta

I for one have learned something new so appreciate all the info.

What kind of accuracy is lost if the choke is cut out of a .22lr barrel? I've seen many guys on English forums get CZ rifles cut well below what's legal here and they usually report that accuracy is unaffected.

Is this something only benchrest shooters would care about or notice? Small fractions of an MOA or what? I honestly wouldn't know how bad this could make a rifle.

I'm not knocking CZ .22lr rifles either in case I am accused of it. I have a CZ .22lr rifle