Shortening barrels - cut from the chamber or from the crown?

tomcat220t

Vegeta wrote: »

I for one have learned something new so appreciate all the info.

What kind of accuracy is lost if the choke is cut out of a .22lr barrel? I've seen many guys on English forums get CZ rifles cut well below what's legal here and they usually report that accuracy is unaffected.

Is this something only benchrest shooters would care about or notice? Small fractions of an MOA or what? I honestly wouldn't know how bad this could make a rifle.

I'm not knocking CZ .22lr rifles either in case I am accused of it. I have a CZ .22lr rifle

Lead is an almost dead metal unlike copper !
So when the lead slug starts it journey down the barrel ideally a constant contact with slug and bore would be great for accuracy but thats not what happens very often in real life of barrels .
Any of the smallest variation between bore and lead slug along the barrel is rectified with a small amount of choke just before the lead slug leaves the barrel.
This technique of .22lr rifling is used world wide by all the top .22 lr rifle manufactures .
This list of manufactures includes Anschutz ...one of the worlds most successful target rifle manufactures .
Anschutz rifles have won more olympic medals and world accuracy records than any other rimfire rifles combined .
C/Z barrel are also choked to aid their .22lr accuracy .
Some people buy c/z .22lr and never find out it true potential ..thats fine ,imo.
But if some one wants to retain warranty and accuracy with their c/z ,my advice is dont go chopping off the choke .

If anyone wants to add or correct on what im saying in this topic ..Great!
For years ive understood this to be the case in .22lr rifles and not copy and pasted from somebody elses views !

Vegeta

Thanks for the info tomcat, any info on what level of improvement the choking provides?

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Anschutz rifles have won more olympic medals and world accuracy records than any other rimfire rifles combined .

Correct. But you're correct because Anschutz have been building olympic rifles for longer than anyone else. Not because they're making the best barrels in the world today. They're a damn sight better than CZ or Ruger at making barrels, yes, but whether they're better than Lilja or Shilen isn't an open question -- the current Olympic medals are being won by Bleiker rifles (using Lilja barrels) and Anschutz rifles with Lilja barrels and Anschutz rifles with Shilen barrels. With the possible exception of a few individual shooters like the Russians, who (a) can't afford new kit and (b) have old kit that was the best in the world when the USSR bought it for them and still is today; most people winning the medals aren't using original Anschutz barrels and noone who's winning medals is doing it with an original unselected Anschutz barrel.

And as for "you need a choke because you have bad ammunition", that was true a hundred years ago (moderately; making a tapered bore then was pretty difficult); today it just is not because our manufacturing standards have advanced in the past century. We don't hand-make ammunition anymore. We don't need barrels that compress the projectile to fix manufacturing defects in the projectile. That's what the sales pitches from Lilja and Shilen and others are based on.

For low-end rifles with low-end ammunition, yes, I can see that there's an argument that it would be useful (an argument without conclusive supporting data as far as I can see); but for the high end, they just make better barrels and better ammunition instead, and they seem to be winning a lot more medals than those who still choke barrels.

tomcat220t

Vegeta wrote: »

Thanks for the info tomcat, any info on what level of improvement the choking provides?

There are several references to guys shorting their Anschutz rifles with disappointing results on the net,if that helps .
I know of guys that got rifles shortened with mixed results ....was this down to the recrown ,barrel condition , shooter or chopping off from the crown ...cant say for definite !
One thing i do know is most .22lr rifle manufactures go to great lenghts to ensure the barrels are choked for improved accuracy .
You can be sure that a budget rifle like C/Z dont choke their barrels just to improve by a tenth of an inch at 50 meters ,imo.

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

the current Olympic medals are being won by Bleiker rifles (using Lilja barrels) and Anschutz rifles with Lilja barrels.

Lilja .22lr barrels are not a parallel bore .

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

the current Olympic medals are being won by Bleiker rifles (using Lilja barrels)

http://www.bleiker.ch/MedaillenspiegelSummaryoftitles_71.html

http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?menu=9&sprache=1&aktion=detail&newsletterID=%E0%9D%014%BC%91%92d

Smallbore results from 2008 Olympics

The ANSCHÜTZ group by far was the most successful company with the most medals in the air rifle and air pistol competitions. 7 medals of possible 12 medals were won with the products of ANSCHÜTZ resp. STEYR which means a success rate of fantastic 58 %.

Small bore disciplines:
ANSCHÜTZ could triumph also in the small bore disciplines!

In the women’s 50 m rifle 3 position 3x20 competition all medals were won with ANSCHÜTZ small bore rifles. A new Olympic record was set. There were 6 ANSCHÜTZ rifles in the final and 65 % of the shooters used a small bore rifle of the “MeisterMacher”.

In the men’s 50 m rifle 3 position 3x40 competition the Gold and Silver medals were won with ANSCHÜTZ rifles. The final was thrilling until the last shot. Matt Emmons from the USA was on the first place until the 9th shot. The 10th shot was a 4,4 only and unfortunately he lost a medal and had to be content with place 4. Memories of Athens came up again …

The ANSCHÜTZ shooters won 8 medals in the shooting disciplines, far more than any other German company. With the medals of STEYR the total quantity was even fantastic 13 medals in the end. The slogan “MeisterMacher” again has proved!

Where are you getting your facts from
Bleiker (lilja) brought one bronze medal home from the last olympics .
How many did Anschutz win ??

Sparks wrote: »

and Anschutz rifles with Lilja barrels and Anschutz rifles with Shilen barrels.

What make barrel are you shooting ?
Even though its an air rifle ,is your barrel choked ?

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Bleiker (lilja) brought one bronze medal home from the last olympics .
How many did Anschutz win ??

Not so many - most of the anschutz rifles have had their barrels replaced (both the Emmons have used lilja since Athens, as has Potent).

But I got sick of going round and round, so I emailed all the barrel manufacturers I could find who do precision barrels:

• Dan Lilja says they use a slightly tapered bore on their rimfire barrels.
• Shilen ratchet-rifled barrels use a tapered bore, their octoganal and six-groove barrels do not.
• Brux barrels favour a slight tapered bore on their rimfire barrels.
• Border barrels also use a tapered bore.
• Walther make both straight and tapered bores, they don't have any preference, they just build whatever the customer wants.
• Spencer barrels don't have a tapered bore
• Broughton use a 2-thou tapered bore
• Hart will add a tapered bore if the customer explicitly asks for it, but they don't do it otherwise.
• Kreiger also put in a 2-thou tapered bore.
• Bartlein barrels don't use a tapered bore and gave a very comprehensive answer on that, which I've asked for permission to republish here, but basicly said that the available data doesn't show one way or the other whether tapers do any good or not, and that other factors are far more important (and he also pointed out that Anschutz barrels, when tested against barrels from manufacturers like these, come in way down the field unless you carefully select the barrel (which is why shooters will have 30-year-old rifle barrels on the firing line even if they've replaced all the other parts)

That's fairly evenly split - eight cases where a tapered bore is used (counting the times it's explicitly asked for by the customer), six where it is not (again, counting the times it's explicitly asked for).

Some points:

• Nobody used chokes.
• All bar one of those who said they put in a tapered bore, said it went in from chamber to crown. So it wouldn't matter if you cut from front or back, you'd still affect things to one degree or another.
• also, I've run into a lot of anecdotal tales while digging all this up that stated that chopping off the front of an anschutz barrel is basicly flipping a coin - some get better, some get worse and there seems to be no way to tell in advance which it'll be.

Basicly, I think that this is like batch-testing your rifle ammo for smallbore, only more so (ie. there are maybe five or ten shooters in Ireland where you could even measure the difference it makes and you can spot those guys from their medals and disciplines -- it's what my coach calls allen-key shooting). If the differences are as small as reported when dealing with rifles that are far more accurate than the 10/22 (ie. bolt action match rifles with match barrels), then it can't be that important -- and when ten of the most highly regarded manufacturers of precision barrels in the world (people whose reputation and livelihoods depend on it) don't agree on it, and don't seem terribly worked up over it either, I don't think it can really be that important.


I'll post up Bartlein's email later if he okay's it, it's actually really interesting.



ps. I know it reads like an argument in places but this thread's been quite neat. New stuff learnt, new data gathered from the source - more threads like that please!

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

Not so many - most of the anschutz rifles have had their barrels replaced (both the Emmons have used lilja since Athens, as has Potent).

But I got sick of going round and round, so I emailed all the barrel manufacturers I could find who do precision barrels:

• Dan Lilja says they use a slightly tapered bore on their rimfire barrels.
• Shilen ratchet-rifled barrels use a tapered bore, their octoganal and six-groove barrels do not.
• Brux barrels favour a slight tapered bore on their rimfire barrels.
• Border barrels also use a tapered bore.
• Walther make both straight and tapered bores, they don't have any preference, they just build whatever the customer wants.
• Spencer barrels don't have a tapered bore
• Broughton use a 2-thou tapered bore
• Hart will add a tapered bore if the customer explicitly asks for it, but they don't do it otherwise.
• Kreiger also put in a 2-thou tapered bore.
• Bartlein barrels don't use a tapered bore and gave a very comprehensive answer on that, which I've asked for permission to republish here, but basicly said that the available data doesn't show one way or the other whether tapers do any good or not, and that other factors are far more important (and he also pointed out that Anschutz barrels, when tested against barrels from manufacturers like these, come in way down the field unless you carefully select the barrel (which is why shooters will have 30-year-old rifle barrels on the firing line even if they've replaced all the other parts)

That's fairly evenly split - eight cases where a tapered bore is used (counting the times it's explicitly asked for by the customer), six where it is not (again, counting the times it's explicitly asked for).

Some points:

• Nobody used chokes.
• All bar one of those who said they put in a tapered bore, said it went in from chamber to crown. So it wouldn't matter if you cut from front or back, you'd still affect things to one degree or another.
• also, I've run into a lot of anecdotal tales while digging all this up that stated that chopping off the front of an anschutz barrel is basicly flipping a coin - some get better, some get worse and there seems to be no way to tell in advance which it'll be.

Basicly, I think that this is like batch-testing your rifle ammo for smallbore, only more so (ie. there are maybe five or ten shooters in Ireland where you could even measure the difference it makes and you can spot those guys from their medals and disciplines -- it's what my coach calls allen-key shooting). If the differences are as small as reported when dealing with rifles that are far more accurate than the 10/22 (ie. bolt action match rifles with match barrels), then it can't be that important -- and when ten of the most highly regarded manufacturers of precision barrels in the world (people whose reputation and livelihoods depend on it) don't agree on it, and don't seem terribly worked up over it either, I don't think it can really be that important.


I'll post up Bartlein's email later if he okay's it, it's actually really interesting.



ps. I know it reads like an argument in places but this thread's been quite neat. New stuff learnt, new data gathered from the source - more threads like that please!

Have i missed something here ?
Taper bore /choke ???
Post 54??? What did i say ?
Post 57???Your reply ?
All you have done is backed up every thing ive been saying
If you ask any of theses companys do the have a choke in their .22lr barrels they say YES and do so through lapping the full bore into a tapped bore ..ie tighter at the muzzle than the breech .(taper bore)
The method in which anschutz achieve their choke is different to match barrels but the exact principle applys .

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Have i missed something here ?

Yes.

Taper bore /choke ???

Tapered bores, chokes, and tapered barrels are still three seperate things.

• A tapered bore is a bore that varies continously over a long part of the barrel, the entire length from chamber to crown with most of those I asked.
• A choke is where the bore changes quickly over a short distance (around an inch or less) from one size to the other; none of the manufacturers I asked do that. All produce better barrels than Anschutz.
• A tapered barrel is where the outside of the barrel changes diameter over the length of the barrel, not the bore; it's how you get from a largeish action to a thinner barrel.

If you ask any of theses companys do the have a choke in their .22lr barrels they say YES

Tomcat, I just did ask them and that's not what they all say. I didn't go look up their websites on google; I emailed each of them directly and asked directly and was answered directly.
If you think you know what they're doing better than they do, I think you're wrong.
And if you think that your rifle can't shoot well without a tapered bore or a choke, well, half the top manufacturers just plain don't agree with you and the other half just don't seem to care that much - and they do this for a living.

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

Yes.

Tapered bores, chokes, and tapered barrels are still three seperate things.

• A tapered bore is a bore that varies continously over a long part of the barrel, the entire length from chamber to crown with most of those I asked.
• A choke is where the bore changes quickly over a short distance (around an inch or less) from one size to the other; none of the manufacturers I asked do that. All produce better barrels than Anschutz.
• A tapered barrel is where the outside of the barrel changes diameter over the length of the barrel, not the bore; it's how you get from a largeish action to a thinner barrel.

Tomcat, I just did ask them and that's not what they all say. I didn't go look up their websites on google; I emailed each of them directly and asked directly and was answered directly.
If you think you know what they're doing better than they do, I think you're wrong.
And if you think that your rifle can't shoot well without a tapered bore or a choke, well, half the top manufacturers just plain don't agree with you and the other half just don't seem to care that much - and they do this for a living.

Post 54 ???
Your reply ??

tomcat220t

tomcat220t wrote: »

Bleiker .22lrs use Lilja barrels .
Lilja have a taper in their bore, ie choke !

Whats the problem ....and thats without having to E-mail any compay !
What was your reply to this ?

stick shooter

tomcat220t wrote: »

Bleiker .22lrs use Lilja barrels .
Lilja have a taper in their bore, ie choke !

This is an email query i sent to lilja barrels earlier during the thread and the reply i received

To whom it may concern,
I am interested in more information pertaining to your barrels.

Interested in .22lr blank barrels, my query is if your barrels come choked from the factory?

Regards,

XXXXXXXXX

The reply i received

Hi XXXXXXXXXXX,

Yes we do make our rimfire barrels with some taper towards the muzzle.

Here is a link to our exporting page: http://www.riflebarrels.com/exporting.htm

Best regards,

Dan

Daniel Lilja
Precision Rifle Barrels Inc.
81 Lower Lynch Creek Road
Post Office Box 372
Plains, Montana 59859
Phone: 406-826-3084
FAX: 406-826-3083
www.riflebarrels.com
lilja@riflebarrels.com

I followed this thread from the beginning with a lot of interest and to me one of the best threads ive seen on here this year.

To me and im sure others would agree, that from the start to be fair to tomcat he has been the most consistent and accurate with his views.

The above email clearly shows that when asked about a "choke" lilja replied with a yes and also used the word "taper"

@sparks, potato/spuds different words yet the same thing

Sparks

stick shooter wrote: »

The above email clearly shows that when asked about a "choke" lilja replied with a yes and also used the word "taper"
@sparks, potato/spuds different words yet the same thing

'cept they'e not, and there's a lot of info out there on the difference...

And tomcat, did you not read that list's first entry?

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

'cept they'e not, and there's a lot of info out there on the difference...

And tomcat, did you not read that list's first entry?

If you feel the need to split hairs between choke and taper to the muzzle ....you need to also correct Dan lilja on his e-mail to Stick shooter :rolleyes:.
Show me in your replys on this topic(prior to e-mailing theses companys) where you had an idea what you were trying to explain,please ?

tomcat220t

So it wouldnt matter if you cut from from or back ,youd still affect things to one degree or another .
Please explain ,Sparks .

stick shooter

So just so i have it right guys, even the match barrels deliberately have the tightest part of the bore at the muzzle on .22s??

tomcat220t

stick shooter wrote: »

So just so i have it right guys, even the match barrels deliberately have the tightest part of the bore at the muzzle on .22s??

Yea , top .22lr match barrels have the tighest point of the bore is at the muzzle . But it tapers from futher up towards the breech .
This is less abrupt for the lead slug when been squezzed down the bore .

Where as anschutz ,cz and most other rifle makers choke there bore closer to the muzzle .Cheaper to do !

For some reason non of the cut barrel makers are favored as top .22lr barrel!

In my mind both are choked ,just using different methods !

Glensman

Have read this with interest, great thread.
Had never previously heard of this... But...

A taper and a choke are not the same thing; they may achieve the same end.
But in a different way.


Like a lot of 10/22 owners I took a couple of inches off my Target rifle (muzzle) and got a new target crown. Accuracy did not noticably increase or decline.

tomcat220t

Glensman wrote: »

Have read this with interest, great thread.
Had never previously heard of this... But...

A taper and a choke are not the same thing; they may achieve the same end.
But in a different way.


Like a lot of 10/22 owners I took a couple of inches off my Target rifle (muzzle) and got a new target crown. Accuracy did not noticably increase or decline.

I agree there is a differnce in taper bore (post 28) and a choked bore (anschutz ,cz ect) .
What i dont get is when i stated lilja having a taper bore Sparks assumed by his reply i was talking about the outside taper of the barrel (reply 29).
If Sparks had of known any thing about how they choked their barrels (taper bore) prior to e-mailing ,he would not have answered me about the out side taper of the barrel !
Now if Sparks wants to nit pick through my words and try and suggest i havent a clue what im talking about ,fine !
Im not the one waiting hours for e-mails to be replyed to give my opinion .
My wording my not be exact ,but my understanding of how Anschutz ,Cz ,Lilja ,Shilen ect ...make their barrels is !

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Yea , top .22lr match barrels have the tighest point of the bore is at the muzzle

No, that's not true. About half of them do and the other half don't. The list above shows which do and which don't.

Sparks

Suffering cats.

tomcat220t wrote: »

What i dont get is when i stated lilja having a taper bore Sparks assumed by his reply i was talking about the outside taper of the barrel (reply 29).

Except that you didn't say tapered bore, you said taper; and taper in their catalog is only used to refer to the external contour of the barrel. They don't mention anywhere about having a tapered bore - I had to ask Dan Lilja himself to find out they had. And I asked him if they had a straight, uniform bore; or a choke; or a gradual tapered bore from chamber to crown. He said they used the tapered bore. If you want to call that a choke, you go right ahead, but it's not the word means and it's not what the man said.

Now if Sparks wants to nit pick through my words and try and suggest i havent a clue what im talking about ,fine !

Tomcat, you started off talking about cheap ruger barrels (not aftermarket barrels, the best of which have no tapered bore or choke; but the stock factory barrels) and CZ barrels, which can't really be cut from the chamber because of the external contours of the barrel anyway - they wouldn't physically fit the action without shimming if you cut them from the chamber end.

Then you went on to talking about anschutz bull barrels, which are constructed differently, and which have seen both positive and negative results from cutting from the crown end and recrowning.

Then you got into talking about what barrels are best and you've still not quite settled on which ones are, but the benchrest ones you mentioned, from what I can tell, are split between having a tapered bore and not.

It'd be hard to nit pick your argument tomcat, because it doesn't stay still long enough to look at.

And with lilja barrels, you've gone from not knowing where they're used (you said in one post that Lilja and others might be the best, but Bleiker weren't, even though Lilka make Bleiker's rimfire barrels, something you suddenly pointed out two posts and a google search later); to talking about how you need a world-class gunsmith to fit a Lilja barrel (no, you don't, they're drop-in replacements for the Anschutz 20xx action which is built to swap barrels with a minimum of tools and effort; you could do it on your workbench at home if you really had to - there's no lathework, no lapping and no shimming involved); to saying how Lilja do choke their barrels (it's a gradual taper from chamber to crown according to lilja, not a choke) and acting ike a kid at christmas because you found something I was wrong about (even though I never said Lilja had no choke, I said Shilen had no choke, and I went to go ask the guy who makes Lilja barrels if they had a tapered bore to find out one way or another and I posted up the actual response from him and the others, which is supposed to be how we learn).

But after all of this, the fact remains that your original point is something the top barrel manufacturers in the world have no consensus on, and which only a few had an actual opinion on.

Im not the one waiting hours for e-mails to be replyed to give my opinion

It's a shame, because the emails I waited for taught me something I didn't know. Which means I've gotten more out of this thread than you seem to have.

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

No, that's not true. About half of them do and the other half don't. The list above shows which do and which don't.

Offering options like straight taper does not meant they are used in top .22lr shooting .

Shilen , broughton and lilja barrels im my mind make the best .22lr barrels of the bunch listed .
Straight taper bore rimfire barrels (in theroy ) might work well but they would have to be an EXACT bore !Is it more accurate than a taper bore ?Not yet proven ,imo.
Find me a barrel company that use the word EXACT in therms to their bore .
Rifle bore are made to a tolernce ...some very exact tolernce ..but tolernce all the same .
Im not saying a MATCH barrel straight taper bore wont shoot but the insurance a little tapeered bore gives makes it much more popular choice for accuracy .
It will probibly be a cut rifle company that makes a straight bore to makes the next leap in rimfire barrel making but as to date button barrels rule in the top shoots .

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

Suffering cats.

Except that you didn't say tapered bore, you said taper; and taper in their catalog is only used to refer to the external contour of the barrel. They don't mention anywhere about having a tapered bore - I had to ask Dan Lilja himself to find out they had. And I asked him if they had a straight, uniform bore; or a choke; or a gradual tapered bore from chamber to crown. He said they used the tapered bore. If you want to call that a choke, you go right ahead, but it's not the word means and it's not what the man said.

Tomcat, you started off talking about cheap ruger barrels (not aftermarket barrels, the best of which have no tapered bore or choke; but the stock factory barrels) and CZ barrels, which can't really be cut from the chamber because of the external contours of the barrel anyway - they wouldn't physically fit the action without shimming if you cut them from the chamber end.

Then you went on to talking about anschutz bull barrels, which are constructed differently, and which have seen both positive and negative results from cutting from the crown end and recrowning.

Then you got into talking about what barrels are best and you've still not quite settled on which ones are, but the benchrest ones you mentioned, from what I can tell, are split between having a tapered bore and not.

It'd be hard to nit pick your argument tomcat, because it doesn't stay still long enough to look at.

And with lilja barrels, you've gone from not knowing where they're used (you said in one post that Lilja and others might be the best, but Bleiker weren't, even though Lilka make Bleiker's rimfire barrels, something you suddenly pointed out two posts and a google search later); to talking about how you need a world-class gunsmith to fit a Lilja barrel (no, you don't, they're drop-in replacements for the Anschutz 20xx action which is built to swap barrels with a minimum of tools and effort; you could do it on your workbench at home if you really had to - there's no lathework, no lapping and no shimming involved); to saying how Lilja do choke their barrels (it's a gradual taper from chamber to crown according to lilja, not a choke) and acting ike a kid at christmas because you found something I was wrong about (even though I never said Lilja had no choke, I said Shilen had no choke, and I went to go ask the guy who makes Lilja barrels if they had a tapered bore to find out one way or another and I posted up the actual response from him and the others, which is supposed to be how we learn).

But after all of this, the fact remains that your original point is something the top barrel manufacturers in the world have no consensus on, and which only a few had an actual opinion on.


It's a shame, because the emails I waited for taught me something I didn't know. Which means I've gotten more out of this thread than you seem to have.

Lets be clear Sparks ....im not the one needing to do a google search before posting!
I have knowing for a long time that bleiker used lilja barrels :mad:!!
Who brought shilen or lilja barrels in the thread ,first ?

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Shilen , broughton and lilja barrels im my mind make the best .22lr barrels of the bunch listed .

What data is your opinion based on? Have you shot barrels from all of them?

Find me a barrel company that use the word EXACT in therms to their bore .

Start with the list above, because they all make them to exact tolerances and the word shows up all over their catalogs.

Im not saying a MATCH barrel straight taper bore wont shoot

I'm guessing you mean an untapered bore, and since Shilen dominate their target market with them, I'd say you might possibly be right.

but the insurance a little tapeered bore gives makes it much more popular choice for accuracy .

When you say "popular choice in accuracy", could you be more specific, maybe give a little hard data?

It will probibly be a cut rifle company that makes a straight bore to makes the next leap in rimfire barrel making but as to date button barrels rule in the top shoots .

The reason you see more button-cut rifle barrels isn't because they're the best it's possible to make, it's because they are the most economic way to make rifles unless you have an (incredibly) expensive machine to hammer-rifle the barrels and the market to sell the one-made-every-three-minutes barrles to. And those aren't seen as being the most accurate barrels by anyone these days (ironically, they're where your tapered bore originated, back when it was done by hand).

The one company on that list who do cut rifling instead of button rifling were expansive in their response that tapered bores and chokes in rifled barrels were not required for accuracy, that Anschutz barrels weren't that good, and that far more important than any of this was variations in twist caused by the button slowing down in button-rifled barrels because of impossible-to-predict variations in hardness in the steel.


In other words, the guys who make the best barrels for a living just don't agree on tapered bores and all of them stress other factors as being more important.

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

Lets be clear Sparks ....im not the one needing to do a google search before posting!
I have knowing for a long time that bleiker used lilja barrels :mad:!!

Really?

Who brought shilen or lilja barrels in the thread ,first ?

Me, in post 11.
You were, at that time, saying if there's no tapered bore or choke, the rifle won't shoot well.
I was, then and now, saying that's just not the case. Lots of barrels with tapered bores shoot well and lots of barrels without tapered bores shoot well. The only thing I can find anyone agreeing on in fact, is that those with chokes seem to always be inferior barrels, though I think that's more because you'll only find chokes on cheaper, mass-produced barrels and those are never going to shoot as well as the "hand-made" selected barrels for unrelated reasons.

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

What data is your opinion based on? Have you shot barrels from all of them?


Start with the list above, because they all make them to exact tolerances and the word shows up all over their catalogs.


I'm guessing you mean an untapered bore, and since Shilen dominate their target market with them, I'd say you might possibly be right.


When you say "popular choice in accuracy", could you be more specific, maybe give a little hard data?

The reason you see more button-cut rifle barrels isn't because they're the best it's possible to make, it's because they are the most economic way to make rifles unless you have an (incredibly) expensive machine to hammer-rifle the barrels and the market to sell the one-made-every-three-minutes barrles to. And those aren't seen as being the most accurate barrels by anyone these days (ironically, they're where your tapered bore originated, back when it was done by hand).

The one company on that list who do cut rifling instead of button rifling were expansive in their response that tapered bores and chokes in rifled barrels were not required for accuracy, that Anschutz barrels weren't that good, and that far more important than any of this was variations in twist caused by the button slowing down in button-rifled barrels because of impossible-to-predict variations in hardness in the steel.


In other words, the guys who make the best barrels for a living just don't agree on tapered bores and all of them stress other factors as being more important.

If you think the people put a price on accuracy when choosing one barrel over another ......
People pick the barrels that are working and will give them the best chance of winning .
Winners plan to win.... not by listening to a company saying how good they are ....they go by results and notthing less ,imo.
Is bartlein or any other cut rifle barrel makes dominating any of the top .22lr match shooting ?
Bartlein make some of the best fullbore barrels on the market ,imo.

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

Really?

Me, in post 11.
You were, at that time, saying if there's no tapered bore or choke, the rifle won't shoot well.
I was, then and now, saying that's just not the case. Lots of barrels with tapered bores shoot well and lots of barrels without tapered bores shoot well. The only thing I can find anyone agreeing on in fact, is that those with chokes seem to always be inferior barrels, though I think that's more because you'll only find chokes on cheaper, mass-produced barrels and those are never going to shoot as well as the "hand-made" selected barrels for unrelated reasons.

I still stand by what i said ...and you know i was refairing to the ruger barrel not a match barrel !

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

If you think the people put a price on accuracy when choosing one barrel over another ......
People pick the barrels that are working and will give them the best chance of winning .

Sure, if they can find the money.
And if their team hasn't got a contract with someone else (as many teams do).
And if they know what barrels will give them the best chance of winning (which they don't until they buy them and test them for a few years).

And after all of those conditions, you're still no closer to knowing if tapered bores are important or not, because the top end of .22lr shooting is split between tapered bores and straight bores. People are choosing based on other factors - quality of steel, evenness of twist, and marketing ("Matt Emmons uses Lilja, therefore Lilja are the best" -- even though "Matt Emmons uses Lilja, therefore Lilja shoot the wrong target" could be equally said because you don't know why Emmons uses Lilja - is it his own choice, or USA Shooting's contract?)

You need data and studies of the barrels to really know which is better, and I haven't found any yet.

Winners plan to win.... not by listening to a company saying how good they are ....they go by results and notthing less ,imo.

You keep saying in your opinion; I keep asking for the data you use to form that opinion.
Is there any reason you won't give it?

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

I still stand by what i said ...and you know i was refairing to the ruger barrel not a match barrel !

a) It's hard to tell what you're saying because you don't use words to mean what they're defined to mean (hence the fun over what you mean by "taper");
b) Shilen barrels do very, very well in rugers and they have no choke and only have a tapered bore on their ratchet rifled barrels - their standard barrels don't have any tapered bore.

It wasn't me!

USA Shooting doesn't seem to bind its athletes. Certainly Eric Uptagrafft has done extensive experimentation with different barrels. I forget what he's currently using, but certainly one of his guns may have a Hart on it at the moment. As to the requirement for aftermarket barrels, just had a quick look at the ISSF top ten for prone shooting, which has some of the fussiest shooters with the biggest gear complexes, and five of them are using factory manufacturers' barrels, with another two using Bleikers on top of that. Of the remaining three, I don't know what they're using, but I suspect Shilen, Hart or Lilja.