Shortening barrels - cut from the chamber or from the crown?

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

a) It's hard to tell what you're saying because you don't use words to mean what they're defined to mean (hence the fun over what you mean by "taper");
b) Shilen barrels do very, very well in rugers and they have no choke and only have a tapered bore on their ratchet rifled barrels - their standard barrels don't have any tapered bore.

Ok Sparks ,if you find what im saying hard to understand or untrue ,i have no answer
The thread on barrels has been very interesting to me and im sure others aswell .
I even had an e-mail in from 2 gunsmiths last night on the subject
Lets make it more straight forward ...
And this is the way i see it !
Barrels are made to a tolerence ,not an exact bore all the time .
When the lead slug is traveling down a non tappered bore ,IF there is even the slightest deviation between bore and slug it could effect accuracy .
Now on a choked / tappered bore IF any slightest deviation is in the bore the slug is rectified by the taper !Does that make sence to you ?

tomcat220t

It wasn't me! wrote: »

USA Shooting doesn't seem to bind its athletes. Certainly Eric Uptagrafft has done extensive experimentation with different barrels. I forget what he's currently using, but certainly one of his guns may have a Hart on it at the moment. As to the requirement for aftermarket barrels, just had a quick look at the ISSF top ten for prone shooting, which has some of the fussiest shooters with the biggest gear complexes, and five of them are using factory manufacturers' barrels, with another two using Bleikers on top of that. Of the remaining three, I don't know what they're using, but I suspect Shilen, Hart or Lilja.

WHAT ...no bartleins or cut barrels

Sparks

tomcat220t wrote: »

When the lead slug is traveling down a non tappered bore ,IF there is even the slightest deviation between bore and slug it could effect accuracy .

The reason you buy top-of-the-line barrels and top-of-the-line ammunition is so that those slight deviations are negligible.
Far more significant is the quality of the steel, the workmanship on the boring and the rifling, the stress relief on the metal, and about a dozen other things.

Now on a choked / tappered bore IF any slightest deviation is in the bore the slug is rectified by the taper !Does that make sence to you ?

No. I can see how it made sense a hundred years ago when projectile manufacturing standards weren't that great, but these days we pay huge amounts for very high quality manufacturing and batch testing for rifles and ammunition (incidentally, one of the manufacturers put the need for batch testing down to button rifling, which was interesting). I can see how it might make sense if you're shooting crap ammo from a cheap barrel, but:

If you can't cut a rifle barrel straight accurately, how the hell do you propose to cut a choke more accurately?

And if you could do that -- and if you could, why not just do what shilen do and have the entire bore cut straight and slightly tight? -- you're relying on the last inch of your barrel to do metalwork on your bullet. Frankly, at that point, you need to buy a better bullet.

tomcat220t

Sparks wrote: »

The reason you buy top-of-the-line barrels and top-of-the-line ammunition is so that those slight deviations are negligible.
Far more significant is the quality of the steel, the workmanship on the boring and the rifling, the stress relief on the metal, and about a dozen other things.


No. I can see how it made sense a hundred years ago when projectile manufacturing standards weren't that great, but these days we pay huge amounts for very high quality manufacturing and batch testing for rifles and ammunition (incidentally, one of the manufacturers put the need for batch testing down to button rifling, which was interesting). I can see how it might make sense if you're shooting crap ammo from a cheap barrel, but:

If you can't cut a rifle barrel straight accurately, how the hell do you propose to cut a choke more accurately?

And if you could do that -- and if you could, why not just do what shilen do and have the entire bore cut straight and slightly tight? -- you're relying on the last inch of your barrel to do metalwork on your bullet. Frankly, at that point, you need to buy a better bullet.

Ok ,atleast you now have your view .....Shilen use a tapered bore on their latest ratchet rifling(very popular for winning at the moment) ,why ?
Lilja only use a tapper bore ,why ?
Broughton only use a tapper bore,why?
Benchmark use a tapper ,why?
You prove to me that the straight bore barrels win any where near as much tappered /chocked barrels and ill agree with you .....Simple
Does you view on Bleiker change now that you realise their barrels are tappered ?
Also show me where cut rifle barrels are choosen over button barrels in top the .22lr matches ?(its not about the money ,either )

Sandy22

Sparks wrote: »

Sandy, are you sure that's still being done today, deliberately? I always thought the variation in Anschutz barrels was an artifact of the button rifling rather than a sought-after thing; and Shilen make a really big deal about how they don't do this for their top-of-the-line barrels or their second-tier barrels for that matter, and they're up there as one of the best .22lr barrel manufacturers out there. FLOYDSTER could correct me here, but I thought Lilja's drop-in anschutz replacement barrels were the same; no choke, just really precise manufacturing and rifling.

I believe they are. In some cases it may be a uniform taper rather than a short choke, which I would in the past have tended not to differentiate, but which in the context of barrel-shortening may make a difference. With Anschutz it may be an "artifact", but I think it is deliberate. With Shilen & Lilja, I am not convinced the web-sites, upon which I suspect you may be relying, are giving the whole picture. They are marketing and centrefire orientated, unlike Kolbe's, which differentiates between jacketed and soft-lead bullet shooting, and is more in the nature of an objective appraisal.

bazza888

what makes of barrel for 22lrs do the riflesmiths in ths country use?do they stick with one brand?im talking more on the competition side of things?

tac foley

So what's the verdict, gentlemen?

Should the OP take a hacksaw to the muzzle end or the chamber end of his $300 sporting fun-gun?

One end will cost him some careful cutting and refinishing.

One end will cost him re-chambering, re-contouring and machining the locating lugs of the Ruger barrel - something that might not be possible when I look at a Ruger barrel.

Let's just point out for anybody who has just joined in this fascinating thread that ANY of the barrels being discussed here by the experts costs a lot more than a complete Ruger 10/22rifle.

And also to note that the vast majority of folks who DO shoot these high quality barrels do not cut them down for any reason - at least, nobody I know has ever done so.

On the other paw, if you want a shorter barrel in the fust place, why don't you just buy a gun that already HAS a shorter barrel?

tac

Sparks

Sandy22 wrote: »

With Shilen & Lilja, I am not convinced the web-sites, upon which I suspect you may be relying, are giving the whole picture.

Which is why I got in touch with them and asked directly (see the post above).

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

So what's the verdict, gentlemen?

That it doesn't really matter (it's fairly interesting, but it seems very academic). If it's a ruger 10/22 with a cheap barrel, you can't cut from the chamber end because of the shape of the outside of the barrel, not without a fair bit of unnecessary gunsmithing to fit the now-thinner barrel to the action. If it's an aftermarket bull barrel, then whether or not there's a tapered bore at all depends on the manufacturer; some do, some don't, and all will supply the barrel to a size you specify anyway so you don't need to cut at all.

Let's just point out for anybody who has just joined in this fascinating thread that ANY of the barrels being discussed here by the experts costs a lot more than a complete Ruger 10/22rifle.

Yeah - to put some numbers on it, a shilen ruger barrel looks to be going for somewhere between $300 and $400 - but by the time you ship it and handle all the paperwork and such, I think you'd be a ways north of that allright.

On the other paw, if you want a shorter barrel in the fust place, why don't you just buy a gun that already HAS a shorter barrel?

And a lot more importantly in Ireland at any rate, if you're planning on cutting down past 50cm, it's illegal anyway. That's not the gray area, it's the black-and-white area, and that'd be you and the dealer in the mucky stuff if anyone cared to look (and frankly, that's not really an if, it's a when). So for sub-50cm, buying in pre-cut is the only available option, and even there it's legally dubious and in need of a test case or a legislation rewrite.

stick shooter

An interesting article by border barrels

OK FOLKS....
Today we are going to talk about rimfire barrels; what makes em shoot, what makes em shoot real good, and why you should choose one of our barrels if nothing but the best will do. So, listen up, you might learn something.The first thing we will talk about is the choke
The what....? No, you dont have to put your hands around the barrel and grip it real hard. But the fact is that any barrel that shoots lead bullets must have bore and groove dimensions that are smaller at the front than at the back. That is a copper bottomed, gold plated fact you can take to the bank.We choke our barrels by a method of progressive lapping, so that there is a uniform, smooth tightening of the barrel dimensions as the bullet goes down the barrel, with a final tightening inthe last few inches before the bullet exits.Of course, most manufacturers dont go to thatsort of effort. Lapping barrels is a skilled job which takes time and costs money. They just put the barrel in a large hydraulic collet and squeeze the end to make sure that is the tightest bit. So, the bullet rattles and shakes down the barrel and gets a final straighten up so it will hopefully fly right asit is spat out the end. Well, it works sometimes.And then there is the stress. No no.... nobody gets stressed making your barrel and you wont get stressed using it. But if there is stress in the steel,then the first shot down a cold barrel will generally head off in some direction you wouldrather it did not go, and it could take several shots before the barrel warms up and bends just the right amount to start putting the shots somewhere close to where they should. Our barrels dont do that, because our barrels dont have stress in em in the first place the first shot goes where the rest of the shots will go. So, if the wind changes and you want to wait it out until the wind comes back again, you can do so with confidence that your next shot will go where you point it

One of the worlds most respected authorities on rimfire rifles

The Two-Groove Barrel–Benchmark’s Accuracy Edge
Joe Friedrich has shot his best targets, including the 2500, with a 2-groove, 1:16.5″ twist Benchmark barrel. Benchmark 2-grooves have definitely “raised the bar” of rimfire accuracy over the last couple of years. Bill Myers notes: “Not counting the recent pending targets, there have been three ARA 2500s shot in the last two years, and all have been with 2-groove Benchmarks.” Bill explains the secret to Benchmark’s performance is not just the number of grooves. “First, Benchmark has very good rifling machines, in particular a drilling machine that is better than most. Benchmark delivers a very straight bore with a very accurate twist rate. Second, the Benchmark folks do superb lapping on their barrels.” Thirdly, Bill adds, “Benchmark does a great job putting choke into the barrels. Choke (i.e. bore taper) must be very constant and uniform–a smooth reduction in diameter–you don’t want a sharp transition point. Benchmark 2-grooves are finished with at least .001″ choke, sometimes .0011″. You have to have choke to shoot in the wind, and the 2-grooves shoot better in the wind than anything else.” Bill adds, “I’ll use a 4-groove or 6-groove if the customer insists, but I strongly recommend the 2-grooves, and that’s what most shooters want. Right now I install 50 2-grooves for every 6-groove.”
Bill is one of the “founding fathers” of the modern 2-groove rimfire barrel. Bill worked with Bison Barrels in Wyoming on their first two-groove rimfire barrels. Bill actually bought the original tooling for the Bison 2-grooves, and experimented with twist rate and bore dimensions to optimize that design. Bill notes: “We spent 1.5 years getting that barrel perfected. Bison has now closed, but Benchmark is carrying on with the specifications and tooling we developed.”

Two-Grove Barrel Design and Internal Taper (Choke)
Myers helped Benchmark develop its successful 2-groove design: “I decided to pursue a 2-groove rimfire barrel some years ago. With the help of Gene Rumfelt of Bison Barrels and Ron Sinema of Benchmark Barrels, we have finally established what I think is a perfect bore to twist ratio, and the right amount of choke. Made possible by the super machine work and lapping from Benchmark, these barrels are running with .001″ of taper. This choke is crucial to a barrel’s ability to shoot through strong gusts. Do not take me lightly–anyone shooting one of these barrels has a big advantage on everyone that is not. The records and scores over the past year and a half prove this.”

Building a Match-Winning Rimfire Benchrest Rig
by Bill Myers, wzmyers [at] comcast.net, (540) 778-1782

In my opinion, a winning rimfire benchrest rifle is probably twice as difficult to build as a competitive centerfire rifle. The slow 22LR bullets stay in the barrel much longer than a centerfire bullet. This means that vibration control is critical. Likewise bedding is critical. Bore finish and lapping are very important. The amount of bore taper or "choke" can have a huge effect on accuracy. Ignition is also very important and above all, rimfire BR rifles need a very stable stock that tracks perfectly. A rimfire that shoots great is a complete marriage of all components and of the shooter's need to be aware of everything possible.

Some up to date .22lr BR results
http://www.proshootingleague.com/results/3rd-annual-sm-10x-winter-shootout/equipment-list/

Some food for tought on rimfire barrels .:D:D

tomcat220t

Some great info in the Results /Equipment lists .
CHOKED/BUTTON barrels :cool:
NO 50/50 split ....
NO cut barrels ...
As i said ,companys can shout from the roof tops as to why they are the best... but its the results that speak for themselves !!
Shilen ,lilja and broughton are dominating the top .22lr scene and results on that link go back 3 years .
So after all that ,this thread has come full circle ....from the bottom to the top ,.22lr barrels work best with a choke .