NI man mistake Italian flag for Irish

Dougal McGuire

Hate people like him with an absolute passion. descendants of planters who settled in our country from genocide and he all high and mighty going around thinking he owns the place.

Chuck Stone

These foolish revisionists would have you believe that the RUC/UDR/BA were just trying to arbitrate between the two communities in spite of reams of solid evidence to the contrary.

But then I guess the bad ones weren't true Scotsmen.

true

Nodin wrote: »

Thousands of B specials, by the looks of things. They did specifically try to get them to join.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1970/mar/23/ulster-defence-regiment-applicants#S5CV0798P0-06665

And some of the B specials were Catholics - not many, but some were.
There were more Catholics in the B specials than there were Protestants in the Gardai.
And your link shows that in 1970 - a year when the troubles were very bad - there were 946 applications to join the UDR from Roman Catholics. If the UDR was that bad, why do you think there was 946 applications to join the UDR from Roman Catholics? Do not forget it was the republicans who stepped up the campaign to dissuade Catholics from joining the UDR and security services by murdering them as they mixed with their friends and relatives in their home areas. It was not just the black protestant bast**ds the PIRA were out to get.

fasttalkerchat

I know of one UDR man who married a catholic. His family didn't show at his funeral but Paisley did. The widow's brother was on the blanket at the time and given that only the catholic side of the family was at the wake Paisley got a shock and made for the door

true

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I know of one UDR man who married a catholic. His family didn't show at his funeral

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The widow's brother was on the blanket at the time

Hang on a minute. Was the UDR man a Catholic, as some were? Lets assume he was Protestant, as most were. The UDR man got married and is the implication that his funeral was not long after, and it was connected to his in-laws being PIRA / INLA? The implication that his inlaws told the armed wing of the republican struggle what the newly wed worked at for a living, and he was killed , as a lot of UDR men were.
And I do not get your point about Paisley. Many Protestant politicians - indeed some close friends of Paisleys - were killed by republicans during the troubles. I do not believe your story as its too far fetched. Paisleys detective would not have walked in to that situation with him.

fasttalkerchat

true wrote: »

Hang on a minute. Was the UDR man a Catholic, as some were? Lets assume he was Protestant, as most were. The UDR man got married and is the implication that his funeral was not long after, and it was connected to his in-laws being PIRA / INLA? The implication that his inlaws told the armed wing of the republican struggle what the newly wed worked at for a living, and he was killed , as a lot of UDR men were.
And I do not get your point about Paisley. Many Protestant politicians - indeed some close friends of Paisleys - were killed by republicans during the troubles. I do not believe your story as its too far fetched. Paisleys detective would not have walked in to that situation with him.

He was a protestant from Belfast. Married a catholic girl and they were together about 10 years. The neighbours knew that he was hiding something about his job but didn't know he was UDR. He was killed on "active service" and not at home. His own family had disowned him so the wake was held at his and his widow's home and only her family were there.
There was police presence throughout the wake and then paisley and his entourage arrived.

Nodin

true wrote: »

And some of the B specials were Catholics - not many, but some were.
There were more Catholics in the B specials than there were Protestants in the Gardai.
And your link shows that in 1970 - a year when the troubles were very bad - there were 946 applications to join the UDR from Roman Catholics. If the UDR was that bad, why do you think there was 946 applications to join the UDR from Roman Catholics? Do not forget it was the republicans who stepped up the campaign to dissuade Catholics from joining the UDR and security services by murdering them as they mixed with their friends and relatives in their home areas. It was not just the black protestant bast**ds the PIRA were out to get.

The scrabble at straws continues. You contested the number of B-specials - the fact is that thousands joined, and were actively sought as members. You contested the sectarian nature of the organisation, yet its been clearly shown that it was same.

There could have been a ban on men with freckles in the Gardai, for all it matters here. It bears no relevance to anything being discussed in this thread.

In 1970 The PIRA was just forming, the UDR was forming and had no reputation as such, Bloody Sunday had yet to occur, as had Internment, the British army had only arrived late the previous year.....

true

Nodin wrote: »

The scrabble at straws continues. You contested the number of B-specials - the fact is that thousands joined

You said in post no. 286

Nodin wrote: »

The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials.

I asked : "mostly" ???? Source / link ? What percentage of the thousands or tens of thousands of UDR men were previously B-specials? What percentage of UDR people ever committed a crime? What percentage of B-Specials ever committed a crime?

There were probably tens of thousands of members of the UDR over the decades of its existence. How many actual members of the UDR were previously employed in the B specials , seeing as you think its relevant to try to claim " The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials. "
The UDR was not mostly composed of ex members of the Northern police force, B specials or Gardai Siochana. And even if it was, is that good enough reason to murder six members of Fraisers family, inc his father? Why were only sons targetted in border areas, to ensure the farms fell in to Catholic hands? At least when the Protestants were murdered in Cork during the troubles there 3 generations ago, most people reasile it was because they were Protestants, and do not swallow the replublican line about them being informers .

Nodin

true wrote: »

You said in post ...............Siochana.

Yep. They were misunderstood, like poor Willie Fraser.

Nodin

true wrote: »

And even if it was, is that good enough reason to murder six members of Fraisers family, inc his father? Why were only sons targetted in border areas, to ensure the farms fell in to Catholic hands? .

I know willie believes that guff. Whats your excuse?

true wrote: »

At least when the Protestants were murdered in Cork during the troubles there 3 generations ago, most people reasile it was because they were Protestants, and do not swallow the replublican line about them being informers .

You know that's been debunked?

true

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The neighbours knew that he was hiding something about his job but didn't know he was UDR.

Wonder did he check under his car every morning like so many other security force people had to do. Wonder if his wife knew he was UDR - and if she told her brother who was on the "blanket protest"? Wonder what the brother in law "on the blanket protest" ( who was presumably PIRA or INLA ) - and his family and friends- thought of his UDR brother-in-law? A lot of unanswered questions.

Chamone MF

Jesus!, is this still going?

Take it to the thunderdome.

true

Nodin wrote: »

You know that's been debunked?

intimidation and terrorism can never be debunked.

If you want to debunk something , how about withdrawing your claim that "The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials."

Nodin

true wrote: »

intimidation and terrorism can never be debunked.

Maybe in your universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmanway_killings

Taking Peter harts word on something is like asking Willie for unbiased opinion on catholics.

HavingCrack

true wrote: »

intimidation and terrorism can never be debunked.

If you want to debunk something , how about withdrawing your claim that "The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials."

The UDR was made up of 58% ex B-Specials on its establishment in 1970 as I previously posted. So yes, a majority of its members were ex B-Specials.

"Furthermore out of 4, 791 applicants, 2, 424 were ex members of the B-Specials, notorious for their bigotry and sectarianism and disbanded for that very reason. Accepted applications numbered 2, 440 and 1, 423 were ex-B Specials, 58% of the total strength of the UDR."

Source: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/w...CV0798P0-06665 - House of Commons parliamentary questions.


Now you can stop persisting with this silly claim that the UDR did not have a majority of ex B-Specials at its inception. Over the years the percentage would have declined simply due to retirements etc. but without a doubt they comprised the majority for much of the 1970's and probably well into the 1980's.

tipptom

Nodin wrote: »

Maybe in your universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmanway_killings

Taking Peter harts word on something is like asking Willie for unbiased opinion on catholics.

I would say thats our Eoghan with the cukoos circling around his head.

true

HavingCrack wrote: »

Now you can stop persisting with this silly claim that the UDR did not have a majority of ex B-Specials at its inception.

We are not talking about its "inception". According to Wiki 30% of its members at its inception were Catholics, which was not far out of line with the % of Catholics in N. Ireland at the time.
Nodin claimed that " The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials. ". Now where are the figures to back that up, given than many people joined only for a few years, or were part time members recruited years /in the decades after its inception?

Nodin

true wrote: »

We are not (............) inception?

Why are you so keen to defend a force that has been marked down in history as little more than a sectarian militia? I'm curious.

true

Nodin wrote: »

Why are you ......

I just state the truth.
Why are you making up untrue allegations and claiming them as facts e.g. alledging that "The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials." Did you know the UDR had grown to 6,000 members by 1990....and yet you think the UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials :rolleyes:

If it was that sectarian, why do you think 30% of its members at its inception were Catholics?
According to wiki:
Between 1 April 1970 and 30 June 1992, a total of 197 soldiers were killed as active servicemen. Another 61 members were killed after they had left the UDR.[87] Three members of the UVF and one of the UDA killed during the conflict were also soldiers of the regiment at the time of their deaths.[88][89]

Two UDR soldiers were killed by the regular army, three by loyalist paramilitaries, and the remaining 192 by republican paramilitaries (mainly the Provisional IRA). Four Greenfinches were killed during the Troubles, Private Eva Martin, L/Cpl Jean Leggett, Cpl Heather Kerrigan and Pte Margaret A. Hearst.

During this time members of the UDR were responsible for the killing of six civilians and two members of the IRA

Nodin

true wrote: »

I just state the truth.

Thats not an answer, and news to me, as I'll highlight in a second.

true wrote: »

If it was that sectarian, why do you think 30% of its members at its inception were Catholics?

...because it wasn't intended to be a sectarian force? Even the British army concluded they were a bunch of loyalists by the mid 70's. The documents with regards to arms and investigations have already been linked. For some reason they fail to register on your radar.

true wrote: »

According to wiki:
Between 1(........) of the IRA

Selective quoting isn't very truthful now, is it? From Wiki, which you just used -

18 UDR members were convicted of murder and 11 for manslaughter.[124] Between 1970 and 1985, 99 were convicted of assault, and others were convicted of armed robbery, weapons offences, bombing, intimidation and attacks on Catholics, kidnapping, and membership in the UVF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Regiment

On 29 November 1972, the GOCNI, on instructions from Westminster,[115] announced that dual membership of UDR and paramilitary organisations would not be tolerated and began a purge which saw a thousand members forced to resign from the UDR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Regiment


Membership of loyalist organisations, funnelling arms and information, countless investigations and efforts to reform the force.....

fasttalkerchat

true wrote: »

I just state the truth.
Two UDR soldiers were killed by the regular army, three by loyalist paramilitaries, and the remaining 192 by republican paramilitaries (mainly the Provisional IRA). Four Greenfinches were killed during the Troubles, Private Eva Martin, L/Cpl Jean Leggett, Cpl Heather Kerrigan and Pte Margaret A. Hearst.

During this time members of the UDR were responsible for the killing of six civilians and two members of the IRA

All of this is true. Of all the killings during the troubles UDR members would be the last for whom I feel sorrow.

Some loyalists were just kids from bad areas who through coercion or otherwise got in with the local hard men. Some RUC wanted to be regular police and disagreed with what went on. Some Brits were just kids from the English working class who wanted to get off the dole and have an adventure.

To join the UDR you had to be a bitter loyalist first and then freely choose to join another organisation.

Crooked Jack

true just got his arse kicked

HavingCrack

true wrote: »

We are not talking about its "inception". According to Wiki 30% of its members at its inception were Catholics, which was not far out of line with the % of Catholics in N. Ireland at the time.
Nodin claimed that " The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials. ". Now where are the figures to back that up, given than many people joined only for a few years, or were part time members recruited years /in the decades after its inception?

Wow, just wow. I've provided you with ample 'verified' evidence to support my claim from reputable sources (not wikipedia) that the majority of the UDR were ex B-Specials for much of their history and you still refuse to accept it. Even the British army recognised the sectarian monster they'd created and purged whole battalions wholesale in the 1970's due to mass dual membership of loyalist paramilitaries. Honestly, why are you so keen to defend an organisation that was known as openly sectarian from at least 1972 onwards and recognised as such by the RUC, British army and British government.

true

HavingCrack wrote: »

Wow, just wow. I've provided you with ample 'verified' evidence to support my claim from reputable sources (not wikipedia) that the majority of the UDR were ex B-Specials for much of their history and you still refuse to accept it.

lol. You claim that 1,423 members of the UDR were ex B-Specials. Did you not know there was a five figure number of people in the UDR over the course of its history ( thats between 10,000 and 99,999 people - you work it out;) )

It looks like your maths teacher was a gifted as your "history" teacher. 1,423 people out of well over 10,000 is not a "majority".;)

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

To join the UDR you had to be a bitter loyalist first and then ......

If that was the case why were 30% of its members at its inception Catholics? That was not far out of line with the % of Catholics in N. Ireland at the time.
Of course nobody is denying there was some collusion between some members of the UDR and terrorist organisations, just as there was some collusion between some members of the Gardai and terrorist organisations.


Considering that between 1 April 1970 and 30 June 1992, a total of 197 soldiers were killed as active servicemen, and another 61 members were killed after they had left the UDR, I am surprised that because of the extreme stress and intimidation they were under that there was not more collusion. During all this time, the huge number of UDR personnell were only responsible for the killing of six civilians and two members of the IRA. The Gardai killed more.

The UDR was a remarkably professional and disclipined force which served the country well and helped preserve some sort of law and order ( better than IRA summary executions anyway ). Thanks to them, we have peace now. In border areas especially many retired members and part-timers were picked off so their farms could fall in to Catholic hands...but do not forget there were some brave Catholic members of the regiment too, who took great risks as they faced danger visiting friends or family etc. Do not forget who done the bulk of the intimidating / murders.

Nodin

true wrote: »

.................


If that was the case why were 30% of its members at its inception Catholics? That was not far out of line with the % of Catholics in N. Ireland at the time.
Of course nobody is denying there was some collusion between some members of the UDR and terrorist organisations, just as there was some collusion between some members of the Gardai and terrorist organisations.

The first has been explained to you already. You haven't answered the rebutal, just come back and typed the same thing again. This failure to address issues raised underlines the paucity of your case.

You keep mentioning the Gardai, seemingly to try to provoke a reaction more than anything else by trying to imply parity, yet again have failed to address the vast amount of collusion concerning the UDR.

And most importantly at this stage, you've failed to explain why you're defending a notorious organisation like the UDR.

Nodin

true wrote: »

Considering that between 1 April 1970 and 30 June 1992, a total of 197 soldiers were killed as active servicemen, and another 61 members were killed after they had left the UDR, I am surprised that because of the extreme stress and intimidation they were under that there was not more collusion. During all this time, the huge number of UDR personnell were only responsible for the killing of six civilians and two members of the IRA. The Gardai killed more.

And again, ignoring issues raised, namely the 18 UDR members convicted for Murder and the 11 convicted for manslaughter.

Why are you (badly) trying to defend the UDR?

Fenian Army

http://omg.wthax.org/23lcl7q_2.jpg


That picture really tells you all to need to know about the UDR.

Thats the Drumcree Orange Order flag they are holding proudly aloft and posing with.

true

Nodin wrote: »

And again, ignoring issues raised, namely the 18 UDR members convicted for Murder and the 11 convicted for manslaughter.

quite small numbers considering the tens of thousands who were law abiding, and considering the stress of intimidation 24/7 and seeing 197 of their comrades killed as active servicemen, and another 61 members killed after they had left the UDR.

Doc Ruby

true wrote: »

quite small numbers considering the tens of thousands who were law abiding, and considering the stress of intimidation 24/7 and seeing 197 of their comrades killed as active servicemen, and another 61 members killed after they had left the UDR.

Ah now keith haven't we been down this road already. Take your ban like a man.

Nodin

How many Ninja edits can one post take?

true wrote: »

The UDR was a remarkably(..........)murders.

Instead of editing your posts with silly bits of cheerleading, you might actually address the rebutalls of your claims that have been made so far.

Nodin

true wrote: »

quite small numbers considering the tens of thousands who were law abiding, and considering the stress of intimidation 24/7 and seeing 197 of their comrades killed as active servicemen, and another 61 members killed after they had left the UDR.

1,000 drummed out for loyalist links in one sweep alone, weapons constantly being given to loyalist paramilitaries, information constantly being fed to loyalist paramilitaries, the beatings, the blatant sectarianism......

Why are you defending the UDR?

Chuck Stone

true wrote: »

bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

FYP.


Probably better ignored lads.

true

Fenian Army wrote: »

http://omg.wthax.org/23lcl7q_2.jpg


That picture really tells you all to need to know about the UDR.

I saw a similar photo photoshopped with the same group of soldiers holding a tricolour...but even if its real I would not tar a force of tens of thousands of people just because a small group in a photo is holding a (legal ) banner or flag.

Fenian Army

true wrote: »

I saw a similar photo photoshopped with the same group of soldiers holding a tricolour...but even if its real I would not tar a force of tens of thousands of people just because a small group in a photo is holding a (legal ) banner or flag.

hahaha

Its not photoshopped.

Nodin

true wrote: »

I saw a similar photo photoshopped with the same group of soldiers holding a tricolour...but even if its real I would not tar a force of tens of thousands of people just because a small group in a photo is holding a (legal ) banner or flag.

If it was a nationalists head on a pointy stick, you "would not tar a force of tens of thousands", even if each of those tens of thousands had one.

Chuck Stone

true wrote: »

I saw a similar photo photoshopped ....

FYP.

As for me....

true

Nodin wrote: »

Dear jaysus.......

The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials.

You are another ill-informed person. I feel sorry for you. So what if 1,423 members of the UDR were ex B-Specials? Did you not know there was a five figure number of people in the UDR over the course of its history ( thats between 10,000 and 99,999 people - you work it out )

It looks like your maths teacher was a gifted as your "history" teacher. 1,423 people out of well over 10,000 is not "mostly".

Nodin

true wrote: »

You are another(........) not "mostly".

And did all of those thousands serve simultaneously? No, they did not.

Why are you defending the UDR?

Sound of Silence

Nodin wrote: »

And did all of those thousands serve simultaneously? No, they did not.

Why are you defending the UDR?

His post history reveals all.

One must admit that, for a man who has a penchant for facetious anecdotes, True pays little attention to evidence when it concerns a certain portion of the Northern Irish community.

true

Nodin wrote: »

And did all of those thousands serve simultaneously? No, they did not.

In 1990 alone there were 6,000 serving members in the UDR. Nobody claimed those who served in the early seventies were all still serving say 15 years later. You claimed - for whatever reason - "The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials". Are you going to admit you were wrong? If you are going to attack the security services of a government in these islands perhaps you could at least get your basic facts right.

If you ever do a maths exam and are asked is 1423 most of ( more than half of ) 10,000 or 20,000 or 30,000...

Sound of Silence wrote: »

True pays little attention to evidence

Are you any better at maths or do you also think "The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials".

Nodin

true wrote: »

............ If you are going to attack the security services of a government in these islands perhaps you could at least get your basic facts right.................

The fact is that it was a sectarian force, riddled with loyalist paramilitaries, of little military worth, kept as a sop to the unionist parties.

And you still haven't explained why you're defending them.

true

Nodin wrote: »

Why are you defending the UDR?

because I always found them fair , polite and professional, even though I always have had a southern accent, drove a southern reg car etc. No doubt there was the odd bag egg, as in every large organisation. As said before, considering that between 1 April 1970 and 30 June 1992, a total of 197 soldiers were killed as active servicemen, and another 61 members were killed after they had left the UDR, I am surprised that because of the extreme stress and intimidation they were under that there was not more collusion. During all this time, the huge number of UDR personnell were only responsible for the killing of six civilians and two members of the IRA. The Gardai killed more. The UDR helped uphold the rule of law in these islands and we should all be grateful. Its a pity some people would condone for example the murder of 61 members were killed after they had left the UDR, for sectarian reasons.

fasttalkerchat

Keith, absolutely Keith.

Sound of Silence

true wrote: »

Are you any better at maths or do you also think "The UDR was mostly composed of the ex-members of the B-Specials".

I believe another poster answered this question. In fact, I believe more than one poster answered this question. Numerous times.

I'm also surprised that you're slowly becoming a pedant.

Such a quality would certainly have been appreciated when you were providing us with baseless anecdotes.

true

Nodin wrote: »

The fact is that it was a sectarian force,
,

why then were 30% of the applicants Catholics when it was formed?

Do you think the PIRA intimidating people who joined, and killing them, made it less or more sectarian if you think it was sectarian?

Nodin wrote: »

, of little military worth,

if it was of little military worth, was it for sectarian reasons the PIRA preyed on and killed lonely protestant members - especially only sons - in border counties, so their farms could fall in to catholic hands ?

And have you looked up a maths book yet to work out what "mostly" regarding 1423 out of over 10,000?

Nodin

true wrote: »

because I always found them fair , polite and professional, even though I always have had a southern accent, drove a southern reg car etc. No doubt there was the odd bag egg, as in every large organisation. .

70 under investigation in one regiment in one incident, 1,000 drummed out in one turn, a long litany of beatings, information & weapons passed to loyalists.....thats a lot more than the "odd bad egg"

true wrote: »

As said before, ............... sectarian reasons.

You keep omitting the 18 murder and 11 manslaughter convictions, despite being called out on it countless times. For somebody with the nom de guerre "true" you seem to be rather fast and loose with the truth.

Nodin

true wrote: »

why then were 30% of the applicants Catholics when it was formed?.

That was explained to you here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78861701&postcount=308

true wrote: »

Do you think the PIRA intimidating people who joined, and killing them, made it less or more sectarian if you think it was sectarian? .

A rather silly question, as the organisation was under orders from a sectarian statelet.

true wrote: »

if it was of little military worth, was it for sectarian reasons the PIRA preyed on and killed lonely protestant members - especially only sons - in border counties, so their farms could fall in to catholic hands ?.

While that Willie Fraser line of thinking might appeal to you, there is not in fact a grain of truth in it.

You seem rather obsessed with catholics. Why?

true

Nodin wrote: »

You keep omitting the 18 murder and 11 manslaughter convictions, despite being called out on it countless times.

I did respond and say it was a low number considering that a five figure number of people served in the UDR ( between 10,000 and 99,999 as you are clearly not good at maths - well you thought that 1423 was "mostly" or more than half that ).

As said before, considering that between 1 April 1970 and 30 June 1992, a total of 197 soldiers were killed as active servicemen, and another 61 members were killed after they had left the UDR, I am surprised that because of the extreme stress and intimidation they were under that there was not more collusion. During all this time, the huge number of UDR personnell were only responsible for the killing of six civilians and two members of the IRA. The Gardai killed more

Nodin

true wrote: »

I did respond (..........)more

You're repeating the false figure again there at the end.

Why are you copying and pasting your own debunked answers?

Why are you obsessed with catholics?

true

Nodin wrote: »

there is not in fact a grain of truth in it.

I suppose if you think 1423 is most of over 10,000, then you can convince yourself there is not in fact a grain of truth in it:D