NI man mistake Italian flag for Irish

Chamone MF

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

There have been almost 400 posts since then. If you make a new thread for every change of direction in a debate boards would be clogged with 100 threads on the UDR, loyalists, Willie Frazer and national flags.

Yes - it would be called the politics section.

That said, lets have a chat about obamas foreign policy vs the regan administration

why not? its just a little change

Nodin

Chamone MF wrote: »

Yes - it would be called the politics section.

That said, lets have a chat about obamas foreign policy vs the regan administration

why not? its just a little change

Is there somebody forcing you to participate in this thread?

Chamone MF

Nodin wrote: »

Is there somebody forcing you to participate in this thread?

Yes, Willie Frazer, he mistook an Italian flag for an Irish flag.
Why are you here?

Nodin

Chamone MF wrote: »

Yes, Willie Frazer, he mistook an Italian flag for an Irish flag.
Why are you here?

I feel like it.

Chamone MF

Nodin wrote: »

I feel like it.

Yer ma feels like it

Nodin

Chamone MF wrote: »

Yer ma feels like it

Hilarious.

Chamone MF

Nodin wrote: »

Hilarious.

Yer mas hilarious.

and hairyous

KeithM89_old

Chamone MF wrote: »

Yer ma feels like it

Chamone MF wrote: »

Yer mas hilarious.

and hairyous

Do not post here again.

true

Ruralyoke wrote: »

Indeed.

I suppose then if some guy who had 5 members of his family killed by the UVF flips out and starts ranting and seeing union jacks everywhere, posters here will start a thread about how he is a prick and should be thrown down a well, killed etc?

:rolleyes:

or just suppose the boot was on the other foot....and some fellow in Monaghan had 5 members of his family killed by a terrorist organisation, and he flips and starts seeing the flags of another jurisdiction ....posters here will start a thread about how he is a prick and should be thrown down a well, killed etc?

One interesting point about the government job Frasers relatives had : Between 1 April 1970 and 30 June 1992, a total of 197 soldiers were killed as active servicemen. Another 61 members were killed after they had left the UDR.[87]

Two UDR soldiers were killed by the regular army, three by loyalist paramilitaries, and the remaining 192 by republican paramilitaries (mainly the Provisional IRA). Four Greenfinches were killed during the Troubles, Private Eva Martin, L/Cpl Jean Leggett, Cpl Heather Kerrigan and Pte Margaret A. Hearst.

During this time members of the UDR were responsible for the killing of six civilians and two members of the IRA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Regiment

In other words the loyalists killed more UDR soldiers than the UDR killed IRA members ( assuming the "6 civilians" were not IRA members.) Funny old world.

Nodin

true wrote: »

...........

During this time members of the UDR were responsible for the killing of six civilians and two members of the IRA
In other words the loyalists killed more UDR soldiers than the UDR killed IRA members ( assuming the "6 civilians" were not IRA members.) Funny old world.

Once more you omit the 18 convictions for murder and the 11 for manslaughter, the thousands drummed out for paramilitary links and leaking of arms and information.

Would you care to address the issues raised in this post?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78879404&postcount=387

getzls

K-9 wrote: »

What % was it before they were disbanded?

The % of Catholics would have dropped because of fear on their part, same as for Catholic R.U.C. members. They would have left themselves open for special attention shall we say from Republican murder gangs. Same for Catholic P.S.N.I. members to-day.

Johro

fryup wrote: »

well in fairness it does like the irish flag from a distance

An easy mistake-ah to make-ah?

K-9

getzls wrote: »

The % of Catholics would have dropped because of fear on their part, same as for Catholic R.U.C. members. They would have left themselves open for special attention shall we say from Republican murder gangs. Same for Catholic P.S.N.I. members to-day.

Fear of sectarian members would have played a part too, hence the success of recruitment of Catholics for the PSNI despite special attention from dissidents.

Sound of Silence

true wrote: »

...In other words the loyalists killed more UDR soldiers than the UDR killed IRA members ( assuming the "6 civilians" were not IRA members.) Funny old world.

http://www.patfinucanecentre.org/sarmagh/collusion.pdf

Cassel Report (2006)

Cassel wrote:

The 25 cases involve a total of 76 murders as well as attempted murders. In 24 of the 25 cases, involving 74 of the 76 murders, evidence suggests collusion by members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) or the Ulster Defense Regiment (UDR)

I have listed the 25 cases below. A significant number of these cases involved the death of more than one person; and as noted, a number of victims were also injured, both lightly and fatally.

Cassel wrote:

Patrick Connolly Oct. 4, 1972
Francis McCaughey Oct. 28, 1973 (died Nov. 8, 1973)
Patrick Campbell Oct. 28, 1973
Boyle’s Bar Jan. 17, 1974
Traynor’s Bar Feb. 19, 1974
Dublin Monaghan Bombings May 17, 1974
Falls Bar (Falls) Nov. 20, 1974
John Francis Green Jan. 10, 1975
Owen Boyle April 11, 1975 (died April 22, 1975)
Bowen home, Killyliss April 21, 1975
Bleary Dart’s Club April 27, 1975
Grew family May 24, 1975
Miami Showband July 31, 1975
Gilford Minibus August 1, 1975
McCartney and Farmer August 24, 1975
Peter and Jennie McKearney Oct. 23, 1975
Donnelly’s Bar, Silverbridge Dec. 19, 1975
Kay’s Tavern, Dundalk Dec. 19, 1975
Reavey Family Jan. 4, 1976
O’Dowd Family Jan. 4, 1976
Castleblayney Bomb March 7, 1976
Hillcrest Bar, Dungannon March 17, 1976
Eagle Bar, Charlemont May 15, 1976
Rock Bar, Keady June 5[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman], [/FONT][/FONT]1976

Sgt. Joe Campbell Feb. 25, 1977

Collusion within the UDR was something that even the UK Government was acutely aware of. This was displayed in a British intelligence document entitled Subversion in the UDR. It appeared that British officials were quite candid in their views regarding collusion within the UDR.

Cassel Intel Report wrote:

It seems likely that a significant proportion (perhaps 5% - in some areas as high as 15%) of UDR soldiers will also be members of the UDA, Vanguard Service Corps, Orange Volunteers or UVF. Subversion will not occur in every case, but there will be a passing on of information and training methods in many cases, and a few subversives may conspire to ‘leak’ arms and ammunition to Protestant extremist groups.

What was also noted in the British intelligence report was the fact that:

Cassel wrote:

A fair number of UDR soldiers have been discovered to hold positions in the UDA/UVF/LDV. A number have been involved in overt terrorist acts.

Cassel wrote:

the best single source of weapons (and the only significant source of modern weapons) for Protestant extremist groups has been the UDR

Mallei

Anyone who for even a single moment believes that the violence and atrocities committed by the IRA and the nationalists in the six counties even remotely approaches the horror, murder and destruction wrought by the UDF, UDR and other loyalist groups seriously needs to learn their Irish history.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Mallei wrote: »

Anyone who for even a single moment believes that the violence and atrocities committed by the IRA and the nationalists in the six counties even remotely approaches the horror, murder and destruction wrought by the UDF, UDR and other loyalist groups seriously needs to learn their Irish history.

Your right I think we don't appreciate that in the south. The loyalist paramilitary groups were animals. I've just finished reading a book on Lenny Murphy and it would shock you to discover that any human being could possess such hatred, bile and sadism. The guy was such a loose canon that the UVF provided the IRA with intelligence to assist in his assassination.

true

Nodin wrote: »

Once more you omit the 18 convictions for murder and the 11 for manslaughter,

And what of the tens of thousands of law abiding members of the security forces who never committed a crime?

Have you anything to say about Garda-IRA collusion, the Smithwick tribunal, the murders of Breen and Buchanan, collusion between Haughey and republicans resulting in the arms trial in the early seventies,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13667022


Or Taoiseach Jack Lynch blocked investigations into the IRA bombings at Narrow Water in 1979

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/dublin-must-reveal-ira-collusion-1-3620819

DUP MP David Simpson says House of Commons figures show that the Republic refused to extradite 93 per cent of people wanted for terrorist offences in the UK in the 25 years from 1973-97http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/dublin-must-reveal-ira-collusion-1-3620819


And do you think no Garda was ever convicted of crimes or manslaughter?

If you want to talk about collusion with paramilitaries, you do not have to go to N. Ireland to find it, a chara.

true

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The loyalist paramilitary groups were animals. I've just finished reading a book on Lenny Murphy and it would shock you to discover that any human being could possess such hatred, bile and sadism.

Nothing would shock me, but do you think some republican terrorists were not similar animals too ...eg the men who went in to the rural church at Darkley and machine gun sprayed totally innocent parishoners at worship there? Or the people who tortured and killed Jean McColville, leaving her orphan kids abandoned.

DEFTLEFTHAND

true wrote: »

Nothing would shock me, but do you think some republican terrorists were not similar animals too ...eg the men who went in to the rural church at Darkley and machine gun sprayed totally innocent parishoners at worship there? Or the people who tortured and killed Jean McColville, leaving her orphan kids abandoned.

Yes I do, both sides behaved appallingly.

K-9

true wrote: »

And what of the tens of thousands of law abiding members of the security forces who never committed a crime?

I've huge respect for the ordinary decent copper in the RUC working in the environment that existed in the 70/80's. There'd have been no Stalker Report without them risking their careers, and far worse, for ratting to Stalker.

Have you anything to say about Garda-IRA collusion, the Smithwick tribunal, the murders of Breen and Buchanan, collusion between Haughey and republicans resulting in the arms trial in the early seventies,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13667022

Haven't you already said in organisations with 1,000's of members corruption will occur?

true

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Yes I do, both sides behaved appallingly.

correct. And the people who tried to keep some sort of law and order , to stop the paramilitary extremists on both sides , were the security services i.e police backed up by army, and answerable to the law, on both sides of the border.

true

K-9 wrote: »

Haven't you already said in organisations with 1,000's of members corruption will occur?

correct, but I was asking someone else, who I guess would condone such behaviour considering he/she has condoned PIRA activity etc.

fasttalkerchat

true wrote: »

Nothing would shock me, but do you think some republican terrorists were not similar animals too ...eg the men who went in to the rural church at Darkley and machine gun sprayed totally innocent parishoners at worship there? Or the people who tortured and killed Jean McColville, leaving her orphan kids abandoned.

Darkley was a sectarian attack and like Kingsmill was not sanctioned by any group so it would be wrong to say that republican groups were involved considering that they condemned these sort of attacks.
Its terrible to see a mother with children killed but there was a lot to the Jean McConville story. She was a high level informant who had been given several serious warnings and knew that she would be killed if it happened again. Its terrible for her family and its wrong that the Brits used people like that.

getzls

Darkley and Kingsmill were IRA actions. Dosen't matter what cover name was used. The Ira and the Loyalists had a policy of using these or denying involvement in particularly obscene murders.

getzls

Mallei wrote: »

Anyone who for even a single moment believes that the violence and atrocities committed by the IRA and the nationalists in the six counties even remotely approaches the horror, murder and destruction wrought by the UDF, UDR and other loyalist groups seriously needs to learn their Irish history.

Now you know full well Republican terrorists killed more people.

Ms.M

getzls wrote: »

Now you know full well Republican terrorists killed more people.

*Warning; continued moan post*

Why are you still victim-counting?

I presume Mallei is including statistics prior to the onset of "The Troubles". Or else he/she is talking exclusively about civilian casualties or NI casualties.

You'll all find statistics to support your death toll arguments. Just quit it. Stop ignoring victims on the other side.

Dyr

getzls wrote: »

Darkley and Kingsmill were IRA actions. Dosen't matter what cover name was used. The Ira and the Loyalists had a policy of using these or denying involvement in particularly obscene murders.

Darkley was carried out by INLA men

Monty Burnz

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Darkley was a sectarian attack and like Kingsmill was not sanctioned by any group so it would be wrong to say that republican groups were involved considering that they condemned these sort of attacks.
Its terrible to see a mother with children killed but there was a lot to the Jean McConville story. She was a high level informant who had been given several serious warnings and knew that she would be killed if it happened again. Its terrible for her family and its wrong that the Brits used people like that.

If this is true, why do you think she kept informing?

Is it not possible that the IRA were mistaken?

Mallei

true wrote: »

correct. And the people who tried to keep some sort of law and order , to stop the paramilitary extremists on both sides , were the security services i.e police backed up by army, and answerable to the law, on both sides of the border.

Are you seriously trying to argue that the English army did everything in its power to protect Catholics and stop the loyalist attacks? Seriously?

Trollsbury Trollington

The north was such a huge mess. Thankfully its a bit less of a mess now.

Noreen1

Mallei wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to argue that the English army did everything in its power to protect Catholics and stop the loyalist attacks? Seriously?

In fairness, some of them did - otherwise various investigations would never have uncovered the amount of information available.

Unfortunately, all to many of them either did very little to protect Catholics/Nationalists (how much intimidation was there within the ranks?) - or, worse, actively colluded with Loyalist murder squads, in the knowledge that at least some (most?) of their superiors would either turn a blind eye, or assist in the cover-up of their crimes.
That's the sad truth

fasttalkerchat

Bambi wrote: »

Darkley was carried out by INLA men

It wasn't. The weapons had previously been used by the INLA. Dominic McGlinchey said that he has given the weapons to be used for an operation in another area and never got them back. This was not sanctioned by ANY republican group and why would it be? Sectarian attacks are a massive step backwards.

Nodin

true wrote: »

And what ..........., a chara.

More what-about-erry

fasttalkerchat

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If this is true, why do you think she kept informing?

Is it not possible that the IRA were mistaken?

I don't know. Maybe she thought nothing would happen her because she was a mother.

They found a British army radio in her house. A few weeks later is was searched again and... another radio.

They were mistaking in thinking that this sort of killing would be accepted by everyone however they weren't mistaken about what she was up to.

Her family said that she was killed for coming to the aid of a soldier who was shot in the area. This was untrue and impossible because no soldier was shot in that area around the date they mentioned.

Fenian Army

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If this is true, why do you think she kept informing?

Is it not possible that the IRA were mistaken?

I think she was a vulnerable woman in dire financial situation who was taken advantage of by the British like many touts. The British never cared about their "agents". Everyone knew what the craic was, the punishment for touting was death.

The IRA wouldn't have killed the mother of IRA members including at the time of her death a republican POW unless they were pretty damn sure.

That said I don't think killing her was the best thing to do (never mind disappearing the body) although I understand why it was done.

Its "funny" listening to people pontificate about her though, especially considering the "old" IRA did exactly the same thing (Mary Lindsay). Guy responsible for that went on to be fairly senior in the Free State army and was a Fianna Fáiler. Even more annoying is those who peddle the lie that she was shot for comforting a dying soldier.

Even more telling is that fact that the names of people like her roll off the tongue way more frequently than the likes of Julie Livingstone. Brit/section 31 propaganda at work.

Then we have the fact that when republicans or nationalists mention people like Aiden McAnespie or Julie Livingstone we're accused of "living in the past" but its fair game to go on about Jerry McCabe, Jean McConville etc.

I hate fence sitters. Those pontificaters who, disconnected from reality, sat back and took the "moral high ground" of condemning everyone contributed nothing, achieved nothing except making themselves feel superior. Cowards.

Mallei

You may hate fence-sitters, but surely you hate the actions of the loyalist paramilitaries more? I mean, fence-sitters may be cowards, but the actions of the loyalist palamilitaries and the coluding British forces were outright evil.

Ruralyoke

The shinners bringing up whataboutery - that's a good one.

"We all have to move on"

Yeah. Right.

Everyone except them.

Ruralyoke

Nodin wrote: »

You'd be better aqquainting yourself with the "career" of mr fraser before piling in.

I know exactly who he is and all about him. Changes nothing. Either one supports democracy and moving forward etc or they don't.

The responses in this thread suggest, yet again ,that everyone else has to forget it all - except SF.

Nodin

Ruralyoke wrote: »

I know exactly who he is and all about him. Changes nothing. Either one supports democracy and moving forward etc or they don't.

The responses in this thread suggest, yet again ,that everyone else has to forget it all - except SF.

What has that little rant to do with the topic of the thread?

You do realise that Willie Frasers problem isn't with so much with Republicans or nationalists as it is with catholics.

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

You do realise that Willie Frasers problem isn't with so much with Republicans or nationalists as it is with catholics.

Hmm, are you sure about that? surely his beef is with Republicans and the IRA? < questionmark.

fasttalkerchat

LordSutch wrote: »

Hmm, are you sure about that? surely his beef is with Republicans and the IRA? < questionmark.

He treats the too as the same. I really wish his old videos weren't removed and we would have a lot of red faces from those defending him here!

karma_

Ruralyoke wrote: »

I know exactly who he is and all about him. Changes nothing. Either one supports democracy and moving forward etc or they don't.

The responses in this thread suggest, yet again ,that everyone else has to forget it all - except SF.

Willie 'The Bigot' Frazer moving forward?

Got. To. Be. Kidding.

karma_

LordSutch wrote: »

Hmm, are you sure about that? surely his beef is with Republicans and the IRA? < questionmark.

If you want to come across as the middle of the road guy who opposes all the shíte, then at least have the bollox to denounce the idiots like Willie himself, the man has a long track record of out and out bigotry. You're coming across as a Frazer apologist to be fair.

true

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

He treats the too as the same.

No he does not. Actually there were some brave Catholics in the RUC and UDR who he said he admired, given that they were at great risk whenever they visited old friends or relatives in certain communities etc. Fraiser went to a Catholic school. His beef is with Republicans and PIRA supporters - which can be understandable considering 5 members of his family were murdered by extremist Republicans / PIRA, and given the intimidation and stress his family (and probably many of his ) suffered.

karma_

true wrote: »

No he does not. Actually there were some brave Catholics in the RUC and UDR who he said he admired, given that they were at great risk whenever they visited old friends or relatives in certain communities etc. Fraiser went to a Catholic school. His beef is with Republicans and PIRA supporters - which can be understandable considering 5 members of his family were murdered by extremist Republicans / PIRA, and given the intimidation and stress his family (and probably many of his ) suffered.

If his beef was just with what you say it was, why did he attack and denounce a fúcking primary school as an IRA training camp. Even if it was an Irish tricolour, that's as clear an example of extremism as you're likely to see this side of the border.

Ruralyoke

karma_ wrote: »

Willie 'The Bigot' Frazer moving forward?

Got. To. Be. Kidding.

Who said he was?

Oh sorry, you're probably a shinner, my apologies, I don't expect you to get it.

karma_

Ruralyoke wrote: »

Who said he was?

Oh sorry, you're probably a shinner, my apologies, I don't expect you to get it.

I have never in my life voted for SF. I'm just your garden variety moderate nationalist, I guess you find that just as distasteful in fairness.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Hmm, are you sure about that? surely his beef is with Republicans and the IRA? < questionmark.

You're taking the piss, I trust.

true

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I don't know. Maybe she thought nothing would happen her because she was a mother.

They found a British army radio in her house. A few weeks later is was searched again and... another radio.

Why did the PIRA / Sinn Fein never mention the radio at the time, let alone produce any of these alledged radios? Instead they left her large family of abandoned kids hungry in the house. And if you are alledging she was an "informer", where would a mother of such a large family get the time to gather any reliable information to "inform" / pass on to the government of the time? The PIRA was a secret organisation, would they have told secrets to an (originally Protestant) mother up to her eyes trying to care for a very large young family? Pull the other one.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Her family said that she was killed for coming to the aid of a soldier who was shot in the area. This was untrue and impossible because no soldier was shot in that area around the date they mentioned.

did'nt adult witnesses see her going to the aid of a soldier , or to chat to him? Or maybe she and her family were visiting elsewhere in the city?
Course it was not the first time or the last time the RA "disappeared" someone, or killed them for its own reasons.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Hmm, are you sure about that? surely his beef is with Republicans and the IRA? < questionmark.

You might take a listen to the company that Willie keeps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQSjFkrjHI

"papist cabal".....dear o dear....