Illegal Bog-cutting, no enforcement.

lmimmfn

MadsL wrote: »

They are also taking your money and laughing in your face

I have more of an issue with my money going to bail out banks and developers, i say fair dues to them, better them getting cash than banks and bankers. Banks/Bankers and developers are the ones laughing at all of us.

tbh its difficult to understand you placing such emphasis on environmental issues when most of the country is struggling to get by, and im sure those turf cutters are in the same boat. The environment is important of course, but so is feeding yourself and your family and keeping your family warm. If it was large corporations taking the piss i would have an issue, but its not.

MadsL

lmimmfn wrote: »

MadsL wrote: »

They are also taking your money and laughing in your face

I have more of an issue with my money going to bail out banks and developers, i say fair dues to them, better them getting cash than banks and bankers. Banks/Bankers and developers are the ones laughing at all of us.

tbh its difficult to understand you placing such emphasis on environmental issues when most of the country is struggling to get by, and im sure those turf cutters are in the same boat. The environment is important of course, but so is feeding yourself and your family and keeping your family warm. If it was large corporations taking the piss i would have an issue, but its not.

When are people actually going to wake up to the fact that "beating the system" only actually makes life harder for everyone. These people aren't taking money from anyone except the taxpayer, just the same as welfare fraud.

joela

Well said MadsL on so many levels!

First of all let us clear up the BS about no one consulted, poor us etc. Many of these bogs were designated as far back as 1997, the designations were advertised in the papers, on the radio and where they could find owners they wrote to them. At that time the much lauded Paddy Concannon started arguing about the bogs so he and others knew bloody well what was on the cards but the FF government at the time decided they would give a 10 year "derogation" which was in fact not even legal.

Secondly the EU Directive itself was transposed into Irish law in 1997 so while we signed up to the 1992 Habitats Directive (voted in by the Irish people under various referenda) we also made it LAW. That is right LAW, Irish LAW. The guberment decided they would ignore their legal obligations, allow the turf cutters a derogation but still keep all the lovely lolly handed over by Europe. So around 2005 the EU were getting a bit annoyed with this carry on so we appeased them, to keep taking the lovely money, and designated some more bogs as SAC and also NHA with the understanding that the NHAs would be given the same protection as SAC bogs. What bloody protection:rolleyes:

So eventually the so called derogation ended, the destruction was out of hand and in the intervening years what had the turf cutters done to adapt to the ban? Nothing, sweet FA, they assumed that the government would keep ignoring their legal obligations and they could keep on destroying important natural heritage while making an undeclared income. Not only that but many of these poor turf cutters were also claiming payments from Brussels. Well that may come back to bite them on the backside because they are in danger of losing their payments under the cross compliance scheme because they are damaging a Natura 2000 site.

These people had ample time to take advantage of the derogation and change their way of heating etc. and get compensation on top of that. The thing is they don't give a crap about the rest of the country, they don't care about the importance of these habitats for flora and fauna, they don't care that they are destroying vast carbon sinks, carbon sinks that are even more important than the Amazon rainforests in terms of carbon storage. They are costing us money in more ways than one, they pollute watercourses with peat siltation which has risks to human health when passed through the water treatment systems.

The watercourses also provide habitat for fish and rare species such as the Freshwater Pearl Mussel. All of these things are adversely affected by the turf cutting activities PLUS cutting away wetlands such as raised bogs effectively removes our natural flood defences in times of heavy rainfall so next time your house is inundated with water think about the bog that used to be there protecting downstream towns and villages from flooding. Obviously building on floodplains, industrial turf extraction, forestry etc. all cause these problems too but these sites were chosen more than 10years ago by Irish scientists as the best functioning sites we had left. So if the sites were properly protected and restoration work begun in earnest we could have at least 53 sites providing free flood protection, less taxpayers money to be spent on artificial flood defences, free water filtration i.e. acting as a natural filter for our groundwater, cleaner rivers and streams, better quality water to drink, unique habitat for rare flora and fauna plus we would also have functioning carbon sinks of global importance.

Finally to say, other countries do not provide compensation for sites designated as Natura 2000. Here you have three months to appeal the decision and they provide you with money to get reports etc. done. Once the 3 months are past there is no going back, the turf cutters chose to believe they were above the law and that the rest of the country doesn't matter. In other EU countries sites are designated, people are expected to behave themselves and look after the sites as expected for the GREATER GOOD.

lmimmfn

MadsL wrote: »

When are people actually going to wake up to the fact that "beating the system" only actually makes life harder for everyone. These people aren't taking money from anyone except the taxpayer, just the same as welfare fraud.

so its fine people walking away from endebting the taxpayer with 10's of billions yet this is an absolute disgrace to the system?

Are you serious? if so if only we had such enthusiasm for the real problems in the country.

Back in 2009 we had nurses striking( again ) and people walking the streets to close down head shops while the country had already started experiencing the worst austerity since it was formed.

This country needs a good beating with the reality stick.

joela

New Report just released from Friends of the Irish Environment which is supported by aerial photographs which were taken on the 29th May. The report while unsurprisingly depressing to read is not the most shocking thing by a long shot when you take a look at the photographs. The report can be accessed here and the photos here. Some of these bogs, 7 I think, received EU Life funding for restoration and they are being literally destroyed. The blatant abuse of the law is awful but the view of the wanton illegal destruction is shocking.

robp

This is an image from the report that was just mentioned by Joela. Its an example of a bog too damaged to earn legal protection but it is the fate of the protected raised bogs until there is law enforcement.

Icepick

This was discussed on today's radio and prosecutions are going ahead.

cursai

Nothing like a good turf to warm the socks. Knowing all.the hard work paid off.

joela

cursai wrote: »

Nothing like a good turf to warm the socks. Knowing all.the hard work paid off.

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

cursai

joela wrote: »

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

Looks grand scenic to me. Maybe there is damage to the but sure its grossly less damaging than oil Wells and the damage they cause to their local area. But sure we can't see that with our own eyes and only those foreigners have to deal with.
People would be better off spending their energy on using less oil and even gas. than to be trampling on fuel worked off the land by decent people.
And no I don't think that argument that most turf cutters are companies and not private individuals. this is the kind of statement from people who haven't spend their summers working at bogs.
Altogether its better than bord ma Mona monopolising the practice for their own profit. And anybody who says they don't damage the big or only take from healthy bogs again haven't set foot on a big or worked in the areas.

antoobrien

joela wrote: »

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

Maybe you should take a train ride between Galway and Dublin twice a year and see the "damage" that bord na mona have done throughout the bog of allen (a raised bog). That grows back, so you'll realize that the people claiming utter destruction are talking through their rears.

IrishHomer

antoobrien wrote: »

joela wrote: »

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

Maybe you should take a train ride between Galway and Dublin twice a year and see the "damage" that bord na mona have done throughout the bog of allen (a raised bog). That grows back, so you'll realize that the people claiming utter destruction are talking through their rears.

Eh its utter destruction of the last remaining relatively ecologically intact bogs

antoobrien

IrishHomer wrote: »

Eh its utter destruction of the last remaining relatively ecologically intact bogs

Not really, we're talking about a couple of thousand acres of bogs. There are still hundreds of thousands of acres of bogland in ireland that are "ecologically intact".

Can somebody explain what's so special about the raised bogs anyways?

jmayo

MadsL wrote: »

So, not content wth destroying the environment, these gobsh1te are costing the state further 1000s of euro. I'm all for enforcement, but where are the prosecutions?

Also why don't they use drones for this - surely cheaper.

First off I hate when people call it bog cutting it is Turf Cutting.
Secondly drones are expensive toys that the likes of the Americans use to wipe out people they don't like.
It is way cheaper to send up someone in a Cessna and get them to fly around for an hour or two.

joela wrote: »

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

You do know that a fair chunk of our farmland is already what is termed reclaimed bog.

IrishHomer

antoobrien wrote: »

Not really, we're talking about a couple of thousand acres of bogs. There are still hundreds of thousands of acres of bogland in ireland that are "ecologically intact".

Can somebody explain what's so special about the raised bogs anyways?

A bog that is most common around Ireland is a man modified one as they are massively exploited for hundreds of years by drainage and in recent decades massive destruction due to new machinery/technology advances.

A raised bog that is worthy of conserving is a wetland so it is basically an ancient lake that still retains a lot of the old rased bog plant/animal communities and also has some (not all) of its unique hydrological features.

A relatively intact raised bog acts like a massive sponge it can retain water which can be handy for our tropical rainfall of recent times as it slows down the rate of rainwater ending up in streams and rivers too quickly, take away the bog and the rivers fill up and floods appear quicker. Not to mention the destruction of the river beds from peat silt accumulating killing off all the fish eggs this is main reason Salmon are so rare in parts as well as other species such as the Pearl Mussels.

Wetland birds are under immense pressure declining since the drying out and destruction of the bogs for birds such as the Curlew, Redshank, Merlin, Hen Harrier, Snipe, Whimbrel etc.

So its a similar scenario to Brazils rainforests and its all down to our ignorance and for having no appreciating for our natural environment. Its shamefull and downright embarrassing having the yob up in the Dail mouthing on every week about retaining his right to destroy the bogs. He always employs its minimal damage but he thinks the general public he preaches to are fools (maybe we are )

axel7

Turf is still the primary energy and heat source in rural Ireland, many homes have changed (in last 2-3 years) from electricity/oil to solid fuel, old-style ranges, simply because of costs of the former rising at an exponential rate. They can no longer afford it, turf cutting is not a hobby but rather a necessity. Some people on this forum are so far removed from this fact that you'd have to question whether they have any knowledge of how rural Ireland works. Please do not comment on this issue until you've a good understanding of how rural Ireland functions, and the necessities if its people.

antoobrien

IrishHomer wrote: »

A raised bog that is worthy of conserving is a wetland so it is basically an ancient lake that still retains a lot of the old rased bog plant/animal communities and also has some (not all) of its unique hydrological features.

A relatively intact raised bog acts like a massive sponge it can retain water which can be handy for our tropical rainfall of recent times as it slows down the rate of rainwater ending up in streams and rivers too quickly, take away the bog and the rivers fill up and floods appear quicker. Not to mention the destruction of the river beds from peat silt accumulating killing off all the fish eggs this is main reason Salmon are so rare in parts as well as other species such as the Pearl Mussels.

I'm very well aware of what a bog is, having saved turf on occasion. I don't know what the hell is so important about a raised bog.

By your description - there is no difference between a "raised" bog and a "normal" bog (apart from altitude implied in the name - I don't know if that is infact the case).

FYI there is no general turf cutting ban (which from your description above you seem to believe) but on a small number of raised bogs, disproportionately affecting the west of Ireland (Galway & Roscommon in particular).

Conguill

I am really sick of hearing about rural Ireland and about how anyone not from rural Ireland should mind their own business.

80% of farmer incomes comes from subsidies, rural Ireland has a better per capita representation in the Dáil than urban constituencies and rural Ireland gets a disporportionate level (relative to population) of exchequer spending. This is besides the point that a huge proportion of rural Ireland is not involved in farming or fishing but living in the countryside (extended suburbia really) and commuting.

The protected bogs are a valuable resource both as a wildlife habitat and as a carbon sink. The fact that somebody's grandfather cut fuel from one particular source does not excuse the current generation destroying this resource forever.

Additionally, these bogs are subject to EU legislation and thus the Irish government can be fined and that means less government money on the things that you and me and every other resident (urban and rural) need.

antoobrien

Conguill wrote: »

I am really sick of hearing about rural Ireland and about how anyone not from rural Ireland should mind their own business.

80% of farmer incomes comes from subsidies, rural Ireland has a better per capita representation in the Dáil than urban constituencies and rural Ireland gets a disporportionate level (relative to population) of exchequer spending. This is besides the point that a huge proportion of rural Ireland is not involved in farming or fishing but living in the countryside (extended suburbia really) and commuting.

The protected bogs are a valuable resource both as a wildlife habitat and as a carbon sink. The fact that somebody's grandfather cut fuel from one particular source does not excuse the current generation destroying this resource forever.

Additionally, these bogs are subject to EU legislation and thus the Irish government can be fined and that means less government money on the things that you and me and every other resident (urban and rural) need.

I'm heartily sick of rubbish like this - if you want it protected talk to the people that know how best to protect it - the people that actually use it, not deskbound pen pushers that have never been to a bog (or worse the anti rural an taisce).

The EU law is about conservation of the bogs, that's not the same thing as stopping turf from being cut (which you'd know if you'd ever been to a bog that is cultivated).

axel7

Conguill wrote: »

I am really sick of hearing about rural Ireland and about how anyone not from rural Ireland should mind their own business.

80% of farmer incomes comes from subsidies, rural Ireland has a better per capita representation in the Dáil than urban constituencies and rural Ireland gets a disporportionate level (relative to population) of exchequer spending. This is besides the point that a huge proportion of rural Ireland is not involved in farming or fishing but living in the countryside (extended suburbia really) and commuting.

The protected bogs are a valuable resource both as a wildlife habitat and as a carbon sink. The fact that somebody's grandfather cut fuel from one particular source does not excuse the current generation destroying this resource forever.

Additionally, these bogs are subject to EU legislation and thus the Irish government can be fined and that means less government money on the things that you and me and every other resident (urban and rural) need.

And what would happen if subsidies were not given to farmers? People would be strangled with the cost of food. Food prices would go through the roof. Farmers wouldn't settle for an 80% drop in profits, no business would. It's not as if you can decide to go without food for the week or just have it on special occasions. Any ways this is a different issue.

Who mentioned farming? The houses each side of me don't have any land. The two across the road don't farm. They all rely on turf to provide a basic necessity. What are the alternatives for these people, as I've said there's anecdotal evidence in my area, and I'm sure other's, of homes removing electrical and oil heating appliances in favour of solid-based turf systems because they can't deal with the rising costs.

Trees also act as carbon sinks, with acreage under plantation rising the whole time surely this can supplement, and in the long-term, replace the need for bogs to carry out carbon extraction.

Conguill

Very little of the peatlands remain in their natural state.
Peat is a dirty fuel which contributes heavily to greenhouse gas emission.

Both of these are facts.

Poeple living in certain portions of the country don't have inalienable rights to destroy wildlife habitats (and yes human cultivation does damage this) and cause pollution just becuase they have been in a bog before. Neither do they understand the bog much better than scientists and other such 'penpushers'.

Anna Nicole

[ Some people on this forum are so far removed from this fact that you'd have to question whether they have any knowledge of how rural Ireland works. Please do not comment on this issue until you've a good understanding of how rural Ireland functions, and the necessities if its people.[/QUOTE]

Well amen, you are dead right. Having worked the bog since an early age, it is not a hobby. It's hard, back breaking work but you only have to think of the cold nights coming to keep going. They are our bogs, our land and we should ba allowed to do what we want on it. There is also evidence that these bogs are self generating and continuously growing. And I don't think people realise how much bog there is in the country. I'm from Roscommon where the government took our hospital yet they've plenty of money to have helicopters flying round spying on people, cutting a few sods of turf. Hardly gangs in Moyross. So will the townies please take their heads out of their you know what's, grow up and as the quote above says, don't comment if you havent a clue.

Welease

Only a small percentage of the bogs are protected.. If they have been designated protected, then cutting should be stopped and it is somewhat unbelievable (yet believable in this country!) that law enforcement stands and watches laws being broken.

The remaining bogs are free to be harvested by both individual turf cutters and Bord Na Mona. These bogs should easily provide enough fuel for all users across the country.

This isn't an issue that necessitates people moving to alternative fuel sources.

Turf does provide a large cost saving for winterheating over the standard fossil fuels like Kerosene, while in many cases providing much better heat coverage, so for many (primarily rural) people it makes economic sense to continue to use it as a primary fuel source.

spank_inferno

Anna Nicole wrote: »

They are our bogs, our land and we should ba allowed to do what we want on it.

Well, you can't, for the same reason I cannot grow pot on my land, ie: The law says I cannot

As a poster mentioned above, these bogs are worth conserving.

And besides if we don't, Ireland (the taxpayers) will face a large fine.

Anna Nicole

spank_inferno wrote: »

Well, you can't, for the same reason I cannot grow pot on my land, ie: The law says I cannot

As a poster mentioned above, these bogs are worth conserving.

And besides if we don't, Ireland (the taxpayers) will face a large fine.

Well now there is a slight difference in turf and pot! Although both are close to Luke Ming Flanagans heart! But I get your point about being fined, we are bad enough! There is so much bog now protected, surely there is a happy balance between turf cutters and the government.

antoobrien

spank_inferno wrote: »

Well, you can't, for the same reason I cannot grow pot on my land, ie: The law says I cannot

As a poster mentioned above, these bogs are worth conserving.

And besides if we don't, Ireland (the taxpayers) will face a large fine.

Conserve != stop cutting turf. Nobody is arguing that they are not worth conserving, it how they should be conserved that people are worried about.

Pete_Cavan

Anna Nicole wrote: »

Well now there is a slight difference in turf and pot! Although both are close to Luke Ming Flanagans heart! But I get your point about being fined, we are bad enough! There is so much bog now protected, surely there is a happy balance between turf cutters and the government.

There are only 53 bogs which have been designated Special Areas of Conservation (SACs) which are now protected. Using the List of Protected bogs, and taking the area for each from the NATURA 2000 Standard Data Form on the National Parks and Wildlife Service website (eg. here), I have totalled up the all for all the bogs concerned (see excel sheet attached). This comes to 18,404.5 hectares, or 1.5% of the 1,200,000 ha of bog in this country.

The government has offered a generous compensation package and even increased it from their original offer at the start of the year. 85% of turf cutters accepted yet turf cutting is still happening on some of the bogs in question. So despite the tiny area effected, and the generous compensation offered, and accepted by the vast majority, the cutting continues. What more do you expect the government to do to find a "happy balance"?

antoobrien wrote: »

Conserve != stop cutting turf. Nobody is arguing that they are not worth conserving, it how they should be conserved that people are worried about.

What are you talking about? Raised bogs that are still active, and capable of regenerating themselves, are to have cutting ceased so as to prevent them from becoming irreparably damaged. There are many bogs which are designated Special Areas of Conservation but turf cutting can continue, as well as other bogs which are not SACs which can still be cut (more than 98% of the bog in this country). The active bogs are being conserved to prevent them suffering the same fate as those which are already irreparably damaged. How would you conserve them, by cutting them to bits too?

Uriel.

antoobrien wrote: »

I'm heartily sick of rubbish like this - if you want it protected talk to the people that know how best to protect it - the people that actually use it, not deskbound pen pushers that have never been to a bog (or worse the anti rural an taisce).

The EU law is about conservation of the bogs, that's not the same thing as stopping turf from being cut (which you'd know if you'd ever been to a bog that is cultivated).

Have a look at the Fernandez report.

The people that "use" the bog "protect" it:rolleyes: get real. how do you think that extracting turf year on year is protecting the bog? Does domestic turf cutting damage the bog at a slower pace than industrial cutting? yes of course, but that doesn't mean that domestic cutters are protecting the bog :rolleyes:

It is clear from the aerial photos on the previous page what happens when a bog is cut over time.

We (Ireland) have a legal obligation to the EU to protect these 53 bogs because they contain a european priority habitat called active raised bog - that is, a raised bog that is actively forming. the 53 sites in question are the last remaining best examples of this habitat in Ireland (Ireland has over 60% of the remaining habitat in Western Europe).

In time, if we lose this habitat it either A. Will simply cease to exist or B. take 1,000s of years to regenerate (with man made intervention (restoration)).

We face fines of up to €28,000 per day until we A. cease damaging these European Sites B. Perform restoration works to reverse the damage done since 1992. The fines are also likely to be back dated to 1992 also with an initial lump sum fine.

So we have two choice. Swallow the hard pill and deal with this matter now and enforce the law. or go to Court get hit with millions of euros of fines, possibly face injunction and then deal with the problem anyway in a few years time. Or we could just leave the EU.

People need to get real on this issue. It's a small number of bogs, yes it's a big imposition on those who are affected, but compensation measures are in place.

Uriel.

Anna Nicole wrote: »

[ Some people on this forum are so far removed from this fact that you'd have to question whether they have any knowledge of how rural Ireland works. Please do not comment on this issue until you've a good understanding of how rural Ireland functions, and the necessities if its people.

Well amen, you are dead right. Having worked the bog since an early age, it is not a hobby. It's hard, back breaking work but you only have to think of the cold nights coming to keep going. They are our bogs, our land and we should ba allowed to do what we want on it. There is also evidence that these bogs are self generating and continuously growing. And I don't think people realise how much bog there is in the country. I'm from Roscommon where the government took our hospital yet they've plenty of money to have helicopters flying round spying on people, cutting a few sods of turf. Hardly gangs in Moyross. So will the townies please take their heads out of their you know what's, grow up and as the quote above says, don't comment if you havent a clue.

the €1,300 or €1,600 a day on aircraft is nothing compared to the fines we face from Europe on this issue.

If you are so worried about how your tax money is spent then maybe you should consider not subjecting Ireland to millions of euros of fines per annum because you want to break the law. A relatively small number of people are affected by this issue, compensation measures have been put in place, I hope the Government have to sense to deal with this issue and not have the other 99.99% of the population paying for the small few who break the law on this issue.

You do not have the right to do anything you want with your land, unopposed I am afraid. The Constitution preserves the right to private property, but even that comes with caveats, specifically in relation to the public good. The Farmer and landowner in Kerry found that out earlier this year after being convicted for destroying a fairy fort.

Uriel.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are only 53 bogs which have been designated Special Areas of Conservation (SACs) which are now protected. Using the List of Protected bogs, and taking the area for each from the NATURA 2000 Standard Data Form on the National Parks and Wildlife Service website (eg. here), I have totalled up the all for all the bogs concerned (see excel sheet attached). This comes to 18,404.5 hectares, or 1.5% of the 1,200,000 ha of bog in this country.

The government has offered a generous compensation package and even increased it from their original offer at the start of the year. 85% of turf cutters accepted yet turf cutting is still happening on some of the bogs in question. So despite the tiny area effected, and the generous compensation offered, and accepted by the vast majority, the cutting continues. What more do you expect the government to do to find a "happy balance"?

What are you talking about? Raised bogs that are still active, and capable of regenerating themselves, are to have cutting ceased so as to prevent them from becoming irreparably damaged. There are many bogs which are designated Special Areas of Conservation but turf cutting can continue, as well as other bogs which are not SACs which can still be cut (more than 98% of the bog in this country). The active bogs are being conserved to prevent them suffering the same fate as those which are already irreparably damaged. How would you conserve them, by cutting them to bits too?

And that doesn't even take into account issues like drainage. Even if all cutting ceased on these 53 sites tonight. The active raised bog habitat would continue to decline as the drainage put in place in order to allow turf cutting is essentially bleeding the bogs dry and destroying the habitat