Your life span before modern medicine?

Mr Benevolent

Sea Filly wrote: »

As for refusing antibiotics, good luck surviving septacaemia without them. I would have died of said illness a few years ago had I not been given them.

Wibbs is a Jehova's Witness who got very mixed up Bacterial meningitis would be a bit of a challenge without antibiotics too.

cynder

I had the normal childhood infections, my daughter would have died at age 7 only for someone created insulin back in the late 1800s. But that wasn't really perfected till mid to late 1900,s .

My son had scarlet fever at 4 a real bad dose, very very high temp, before antibiotics that had a high death rate. My other son had the strep throat and had real bad ear infection (both ears) at 7 months.


Oh if it wasn't for modern medicine I could have died during childbirth at 19, I would have been in active labour for over 4 days with contractions 4 mins apart dialating at 1cm every 9 hours...

bleg

Child birth, stick in my eye

Confab

Confab wrote: »

Wibbs is a Jehova's Witness who got very mixed up Bacterial meningitis would be a bit of a challenge without antibiotics too.

I'm guessing Wibbs is just aware that antibiotics are handed out like sweets for every sniffle by some doctors; I generally refuse them myself. Have taken them for infected wounds, which I was prone to getting when I worked with horses, only if the hot water and antiseptic approach failed first. Have thankfully never as an adult had an illness that required antibiotics to recover from.

Jogathon

Broken elbow, other arm broken, ankle, cheekbone, laser eye surgery (was blind as a bat), cruciate knee reconstuction. Basically nothing really serious over the years really, but I'd be squinting hidiously at you while waving my wooden walking stick.

grindelwald

grindelwald wrote: »

I had the normal childhood infections, my daughter would have died at age 7 only for someone created insulin back in the late 1800s. But that wasn't really perfected till mid to late 1900,s .

My son had scarlet fever at 4 a real bad dose, very very high temp, before antibiotics that had a high death rate. My other son had the strep throat and had real bad ear infection (both ears) at 7 months.

I had scarlet fever too, was only 6 but remember it quite clearly, could barely walk from bed to bathroom, had to rest several times on the way, sitting down on the carpet and waiting for my head to stop spinning, then easing myself back to my feet against the wall.

But as the topic of this thread goes and I said earlier, had I been born before sanitation, antiseptic and antibiotics, would never have made it to six to get scarlet fever in the first place!

Greentopia

My mother haemorrhaged when she was giving birth to me so I mightn't have made it into the world at all! even if I had survived without modern medicine my Mum might have died

If I did survive that I might have lived to adulthood. I got mumps, measles and chickenpox without any serious complications, never gotten flu or contract any illness or disease, only got antibiotics once for a bacterial lung infection and I don't think that would've killed me.

I had an early miscarriage caused by an ectopic pregnancy a few years ago for which I needed hospital care so in pre-industrial times that may well have killed me. So I'd make it to my thirties. Maybe.

Ginny

Wouldn't have made it out into the world. Mum had pre-eclampsia, she spent 5 weeks in hosp, I was nearly 3 weeks late, nothing was budging so she was induced. Finally came out with intervention, jaundiced and needed an incubator. If I survived that the septic tonsils would have done me in at about 5.

Wibbs

Sea Filly wrote: »

Hardly a reliable source, in fairness. And how do you know later readers didn't pick up on it?

They didn't and why should they? More to the point if it was such a fantastical notion why have it on public record from at least the second century AD? If you like I can rattle off a list of well known peeps from antiquity who made it to their 60's, 70's 80's and beyond. Ramesses(II) the great of ancient Egypt made it into his 90's. Aristotle was into his 60's, as was Claudius. Augustus Caesar was in his mid 70's. Tiberius in his late 70's. Plato was in his 80's, Socrates was in his 70's and his end was externally hastened from the application of hemlock. Later on? Michelangelo was nearly 90, ditto for Titian, Tintoretto was in his late 70's when death took him. People hitting their 3 score and 10 wasn't so unusual, hence the lad from Galilee's quote wasn't too out there.

As for refusing antibiotics, good luck surviving septacaemia without them. I would have died of said illness a few years ago had I not been given them.

Oh sure, if I had an intractable case of same, dole out the penicillin, otherwise I ain't gonna take that kinda thing for minor shít. "Oooh you've gotten a bit chesty, better dose you up then" mentality. Too often I've seen the results on individuals immune response of taking antibiotics willy nilly.

Mr Benevolent

Wibbs wrote: »

Too often I've seen the results on individuals immune response of taking antibiotics willy nilly.

No argument there. I think the your post about antibiotics might've smacked of the ol' 'Internet Hardman' vibe without meaning it.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh sure, if I had an intractable case of same, dole out the penicillin, otherwise I ain't gonna take that kinda thing for minor shít. "Oooh you've gotten a bit chesty, better dose you up then" mentality. Too often I've seen the results on individuals immune response of taking antibiotics willy nilly.

This. My parents are pharmacists and inclined to think "antibiotic" every time I have a bit of a cold.... haven't taken them as an adult cept for, as I said earlier, infections picked up through wounds while working around horses (mostly picked up from barbed wire fences). I'd try every topical ointment first though, usually a very painful soak in intolerably hot water and Dettol will sort that out.

Last winter was the first time I've been very ill since I was 19 (11 years maybe?) and I still refused antibiotics. I was coughing so hard that everything hurt, and I couldn't even keep down water, because the coughing fits were so bad I'd vomit. But it only lasted three weeks and I'm absolutely grand now at the other end of it! I'd have known if I was sick enough to require an antibiotic.

They are handed out like sweets, my parents will testify to that, dispensing every day at work.

kylith

This thread has gotten me thinking about how all the people around me wouldn't exist without modern medicine. My brother would be dead from diabetes, my mother - probably eaten cos her eyesight is terrible, my OH dead from food allergies... It's rather depressing...

humbert

Really good thread.

I might have checked out when my chest became inflamed after an infection and I ignored it for a couple of months.

Textbook consumption.

I'd say if I had any fear such a thing could kill me I'd have taken a rest but I'm not sure.

xflyer

Very interesting thread. It's something many people don't seem to realise. I thought about this before actually. Assuming I didn't die of something that the vaccines I received prevented. I would have died aged 23 when my appendix burst. As it was, it was a close run thing as the surgeon pointed out. He expressed it in a very British understated way even though he wasn't British. 'Just caught you in time, old chap'. As for my wife and kids, well she would have died in childbirth as would my first child. She damm nearly did as it was. To this day she has very little memory of her first born's birth. I remember it all too well and it was not pleasant. Number two would have killed her too.

On the other hand, my wife was in hospital for the first six month's of her life. Once her parents were called out because she wasn't expected to live through the night. But she woke up smiling. Her parents lost two children, one immediately after birth and another at six months later, heartbreaking.

Every time I look at her I think of the miracle of her existence.

This is a really good thread with food for thought! I'd have never made it here to begin with because my gran had a stillbirth during which she almost died, in the 40s, then later had twins born at 26 weeks, who would not have survived without medicine as it was in 1950 - one of them was my mother. I was born in 1981 and would not have lived had I been born 100 years earlier, because I have a rare skin condition, which in itself is not dangerous, but because my skin breaks easily and I was born with massive wounds, would have succumbed to infection and septicemia.

Plus, had I survived that, am blind as a bat too; wouldn't have lasted long!

Sea Filly

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm guessing Wibbs is just aware that antibiotics are handed out like sweets for every sniffle by some doctors; I generally refuse them myself. Have taken them for infected wounds, which I was prone to getting when I worked with horses, only if the hot water and antiseptic approach failed first. Have thankfully never as an adult had an illness that required antibiotics to recover from.

There's a difference between taking them for "every sniffle" and taking them for things like whooping cough. He survived without. He was lucky.

Wibbs wrote: »

They didn't and why should they? More to the point if it was such a fantastical notion why have it on public record from at least the second century AD? If you like I can rattle off a list of well known peeps from antiquity who made it to their 60's, 70's 80's and beyond. Ramesses(II) the great of ancient Egypt made it into his 90's. Aristotle was into his 60's, as was Claudius. Augustus Caesar was in his mid 70's. Tiberius in his late 70's. Plato was in his 80's, Socrates was in his 70's and his end was externally hastened from the application of hemlock. Later on? Michelangelo was nearly 90, ditto for Titian, Tintoretto was in his late 70's when death took him. People hitting their 3 score and 10 wasn't so unusual, hence the lad from Galilee's quote wasn't too out there.

You could reel off twenty well known people from down the ages. That would still be only 20 people. And mostly quite privileged people at that.

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh sure, if I had an intractable case of same, dole out the penicillin, otherwise I ain't gonna take that kinda thing for minor shít. "Oooh you've gotten a bit chesty, better dose you up then" mentality. Too often I've seen the results on individuals immune response of taking antibiotics willy nilly.

Some of your childhood ailments weren't "minor shít" though. You were lucky to survive them all without complications. I've only taken antibiotics a handful of times in my life but am very glad I did on those occasions.

Corkfeen

Starvation when I was nineteen,I couldn't eat anything and all food resulted in throwing up...

pebbles21

My father lost his right arm in a farming accident,so i wouldnt have made it otherwise:o

Rabies

Age 22 - surgery on an abysses under my armpit to drain and clean it, turned out worse than planned and was going to my left lung. Woke up in intensive care

Age 28 - burst ulcer. Collapsed in a pool of vomit blood and needed a transfusion and treatment for a few months.


Everything else has only been normal cuts and fractures.
Never had stitches yet.

Capt'n Midnight

Defo something I was vaccinated against. Measles was bad enough and used to regularly catch colds and stuff.

Having said that most of my near misses have involved technology, electricity and motor vehicles and chemicals. So very likely I would slipped on some horse droppings and gone under a cart.


There is a good chance I would have starved to death at some point.

Medusa22

Really good thread, I often wonder about this too. I have Cystic Fibrosis and I take daily oral antibiotics and IV antibiotics every couple of months to try to slow down the lung disease so I think I might have made it to maybe 2 years old? Probably less

Calibos

pebbles21 wrote: »

My father lost his right arm in a farming accident,so i wouldnt have made it otherwise:o

The penny should drop for the rest in a short while

Wibbs

Confab wrote: »

No argument there. I think the your post about antibiotics might've smacked of the ol' 'Internet Hardman' vibe without meaning it.

Ah right. Naw, a stiff breeze would carry me away.

Sea Filly wrote: »

There's a difference between taking them for "every sniffle" and taking them for things like whooping cough. He survived without. He was lucky.

In that case I was, though I seemed to have gotten a mild strain. Plus it's gotten more virulent in the last few decades. Even so the death rate is under 2%.

You could reel off twenty well known people from down the ages. That would still be only 20 people. And mostly quite privileged people at that.

The simple fact is, outside certain types of environmental stress(harsh climate/the plagues of the middle ages/increased urbanisation/industrial revolution) if you survived to adulthood and avoided accident and violent death, your chances of reaching 60 were very good and your chances of reaching 70 were pretty good. Ancient and more recent writers and records bear this out. As do studies on hunter gatherers. Privileged types were often more likely to die younger, from over rich food, excess in wine etc. Many of those privileged types also had hard lives too from the point of view of exposure to stresses.

Some of your childhood ailments weren't "minor shít" though.

My memories of mumps, measles and chicken pox(too young to remember WC) weren't traumatic at all. From pretty mild in the case of mumps(I didn't even realise I was sick for most of it), itchiness in the case of chicken pox, to flu level sickness in the case of measles(the main one, the second type I barely noticed). Like I said a stiff breeze could carry me off. Bear Grylls I aint.

You were lucky to survive them all without complications.

It seems all my childhood friends and classmates were equally lucky on that score then. I honestly can't recall a single complication among them. People forget that these diseases were almost a right of passage not so long ago.

I've only taken antibiotics a handful of times in my life but am very glad I did on those occasions.

Like I say I've no objection to antibiotics, they have saved millions and are one of the single greatest innovations in humanities long history. I would take them in a heartbeat if they were properly indicated like in your case. I DO have an objection to them being handed out like confetti for far too long for every little sniffle and ouchy, which has given rise to compromised immune systems and highly resistant bacteria.

Capt'n Midnight

Wibbs wrote: »

if you survived to adulthood and avoided accident and violent death, your chances of reaching 60 were very good and your chances of reaching 70 were pretty good.

Like it says in the bible or somewhere 'three score and ten'

The trick is surviving to adulthood.
Also accidental / violent death was fairly common as were famines.

Wibbs

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Like it says in the bible or somewhere 'three score and ten'

The trick is surviving to adulthood.
Also accidental / violent death was fairly common as were famines.

Exactly. Indeed the biblical three score and ten statistically is remarkably accurate over time. From a study I link below;


" Our conclusion is that there is a characteristic life span for our species, in which mortality decreases sharply from infancy through childhood, followed by a period in which mortality rates remain essentially constant to about age 40 years, after which mortality rises steadily in Gompertz fashion. The modal age of adult death is about seven decades, before which time humans remain vigorous producers, and after which senescence rapidly occurs and people die.

We hypothesize that human bodies are designed to function well for about seven decades in the environment in which our species evolved. Mortality rates differ among populations and among periods, especially in risks of violent death. However, those differences are small in a comparative cross-species perspective, and the similarity in mortality profiles of traditional peoples living in varying environments is impressive.'


It's a very common misconception that people in the past were barely seeing 30. It's one of those "facts" that doesn't bear much scrutiny. Studies of current pre-industrial peoples show it to be false, or more to the point the stats are misunderstood. This study is a longwinded read but is a good one on the subject nonetheless(will download a PDF just to let ye know).


Overall longevity from birth is of course much lower than in the modern industrial world by comparison. However the vast majority of this difference is down to the child mortality rates in pre-industrial societies. To quote from the above research:


"Infant mortality is over 30 times greater among hunter-gatherers, and early child mortality is over 100 times greater than encountered in the United States."


These are huge figures and that's what slants the stats.

Other evidence comes from things like menopause. It's unique among primates. It clearly conferred some advantage to be selected for and shows that women at least must have regularly reached this milestone(around 45-50) for it to be with us today.

Basically an average hunter gatherer reaching 20 has damn near identical statistical chances of reaching 70 as an average office worker in suburbia. Indeed he or she will reach that age healthier and in more vigorous overall health than said office worker. Rates of cardiovascular disease are significantly lower among HG. Bone densities are much higher in both men and women and conditions like diabetes are almost unknown. Levels of depression are also significantly lower. If you could live like a HG while having access to modern medicine and hygiene(though not too much of the latter) then you would likely live robustly to a great age indeed.

Actually if you look at this and previous threads on this subject you do tend to notice that people who wouldn't have made it without modern medicine tend to require that medical help in childhood.

TPD

I haven't had any life threatening illnesses or injuries. About the only differences would be that I'd have misaligned teeth and terrible eyesight.

danslevent

Wouldn't have made it after birth, was born a month and three weeks early. Also have pretty bad eyesight

Teyla Emmagan

I'd still be alive, if I made it through the childhood illnesses. I'd have one somewhat crippled leg, and hideously overcrowded teeth, but I'd still be here.

Wibbs

TPD wrote: »

About the only differences would be that I'd have misaligned teeth and terrible eyesight.

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

and hideously overcrowded teeth.

Maybe not. Preindustrial peoples have generally very good teeth(outside of some older people) , with low rates of decay and better developed arches to accommodate the full adult dentition. Misaligned teeth are pretty rare in ancient man and current preindustrial folks. Even earlier Neandertals have generally nice teeth. Apparently due to the better, tougher diet which helped jaw development and bugger all sugars.

Meauldsegosha

Type 1 diabetic, if I didn't have insulin to bang up I'd be dead years ago.

Also very grateful for laser eye surgery best money I ever spent.