Elderflower Champagne

TurkeyBob

Hi guys,

I have a few basic questions about making sparkling wine at home that I'm hoping you can help me with. I spent a while searching for info on the net and also on this forum but there are still a few things I'm not sure about, totally new to brewing!

I'm trying to follow the River Cottage recipe for Elderflower "Champagne":

http://www.channel4.com/4food/recipes/chefs/hugh-fearnley-whittingstall/elderflower-champagne-recipe

I've altered the sugar by a large amount to ramp the alcohol content up, about 1.35Kg cane sugar per 5L, sg of ~1.09.

I've done a bit of research and purchased a small amount of equipment, fermenting bin, carboys, hydrometer, syphon, champagne yeast etc. If anyone can help with the following questions it would be appreciated.

(i) To carbonate the wine I get the idea that you wait for the wine to run dry in the carboy and then prime the solution when bottling. This way you have some sort of control of the Co2 levels and avoid wine grenades. I was wondering though...if a hydrometer essentially gives you a reading of the amount of sugar in a solution, could this not be used to gage when it's safe to bottle. I.E Can you wait for the specific gravity to fall to a certain level, knowing that when bottled it will produce a certain/safe level of Co2? Sounds like a bit less hassle than priming with sugar?

(ii) Is there a good priming calculator out there for sparkling wine that uses metric values? I've seen a few for beer but not for wine, is there any difference? I'm on my second batch now, didn't have a hydrometer for the first. I tried priming the first batch with one teaspoon of cane sugar per 75cl bottle (swing caps). Resulting fizz was disappointing. Could anybody recommend a rough dose that would do the job? Going to try 2 or even 3 teaspoons this time.

(iii) The sediment that forms at the bottom of a carboy, what is this exactly? Is it dead yeast or live yeast? Do the yeast sink down to the bottom or do they actually propel themselves around, can they be found suspended in the solution? The reason I ask is because when it comes to transferring from the carboy to the bottles, the syphon I have stands a few cm off the bottom to avoid bringing up the sediment. But, since I want the little guys to go on munching sugar and producing Co2, do I need any of this sediment or will they just be floating around merrily?

(iv) When the wine is finally ready for drinking, there's clearly going to be some yeast/sediment from the last bit of fermenting in the bottles. Is there an easy way of getting this out or do homebrewers just put up with it? I read that the traditional method is to have the bottles upside down and lower the neck into a very cold brine solution, freezing some of the wine in the bottle and then taking out the sediment etc, there's no way I'd even try anything like that, is there an easier way? I figure this would be a problem with carbonated cider and other drinks right?

Sorry if these are stupid questions, on a steep learning curve here!

BeerNut

TurkeyBob wrote: »

if a hydrometer essentially gives you a reading of the amount of sugar in a solution, could this not be used to gage when it's safe to bottle. I.E Can you wait for the specific gravity to fall to a certain level, knowing that when bottled it will produce a certain/safe level of Co2?

No, because you don't know how far the gravity will fall. It could finish at 1.009; it could finish at 0.999. If you bottled at 1.012 that could be the difference between lovely effervesence and having to redecorate the spare room. Which you're also sleeping in. Always let the fermentation finish.

TurkeyBob wrote: »

(ii) Is there a good priming calculator out there for sparkling wine that uses metric values? I've seen a few for beer but not for wine, is there any difference?

Nah, volumes is volumes. Champagne can be above 3 vols, but you'd want to be very sure of your bottles for that. I'd be using plastic rather than glass. I'd also keep the carbonation on the low side until I was totally familiar with the methods and the results. Up the dosage a bit from the disappointing amount you used previously, but not too much. Or dose each bottle differently and make sure you keep a note of which is which.

TurkeyBob wrote: »

(iii) The sediment that forms at the bottom of a carboy, what is this exactly? Is it dead yeast

Yes, mostly.

TurkeyBob wrote: »

can they be found suspended in the solution?

Yes, live yeast is suspended in the liquid. You don't need the sediment and too much of it can affect the flavour of the finished result.

TurkeyBob wrote: »

(iv) When the wine is finally ready for drinking, there's clearly going to be some yeast/sediment from the last bit of fermenting in the bottles. Is there an easy way of getting this out or do homebrewers just put up with it?

The latter. With time, it'll drop to the bottom. Chilling and pouring carefully will help keep it out of your glass. Other than the méthode champenoise you describe, the only way to get rid of it is to filter, and that's likely to strip out a layer or two of flavour as well.

TurkeyBob

Cheers BeerNut!

I'll go ahead and try priming with 2 teaspoons of sugar this time. Hopefully in 2-3 weeks the sun will be shining and there will be six bottles of chilled elderflower sparkling wine to pass around!

sharingan

TurkeyBob wrote: »

Cheers BeerNut!

I'll go ahead and try priming with 2 teaspoons of sugar this time. Hopefully in 2-3 weeks the sun will be shining and there will be six bottles of chilled elderflower sparkling wine to pass around!

One thing to note with elderflower wine is that it ages spectacularly. After 3 weeks it will be drinkable, but possibly a bit disappointing. That is also a high strength version you are making - it could be quite harsh.

A golden rule with higher strength beers is that they need longer to bottle condition. I am generalising this rule to higher strength wines also.

You are using champagne yeast, which I have also used with Elderflower wines, it is aggressive and will result in a completely dry wine (your fermentation will bottom out around 0.990). Can't tell you how it turned out, as a friend took my DJ with the last of it as part payment for helping me move.

Best of luck with the brewing. I am a big fan of the River Cottage recipes and the lazy style of brewing that they advocate, but they never let those things age.

viper123

I put on my first batch of the year Sunday night, 12 litres, good sized bag of elderflowers, juice and rind of 6 lemons and about 1.3kg of sugar and added half a pack of champagne yeast. It blew all the water clear out of the airlock over the first night so it's certainly fermenting well.
Filtered it through muslin last night after two days into a second fermenter (did this a little earlier than I wished but I figured I had too many flowers in the brew and didn't want it too strong), and bottled one example in a plastic coke bottle just to see how it fizzed up, this morning after 8 hours I had to release the pressure as it was already rock hard - tasted it and it seemed a little dry, very fizzy, but there's potential!
Will leave it a week or so and then bottle it properly...

sharingan

@viper - I think thats a bit early to be bottling (and racking for that matter) - I like to get the elderflower flavour through - for early tasting all you will get is lemons.

The main problem with using fresh flowers is removing the stalks which is painstaking. The stalks impart an undesirable bitter flavour.

As for the aggressive bubbling - yeah thats champagne yeast all right!

Did you take a gravity reading?

viper123

Well the bottling (one bottle to be exact) was just an experiment, I'm not expecting too much from it to be fair). Racking I did early because I put in a lot more flowers than recommended so was worried about too much flavour. I did remove the stalks as best I could though so hopefully got rid of much of the bitterness here.
I didn't get an OG, but after 24 hours it was at 1033, down to 1027 after two days.
It'll be left to it's own devices now until Saturday when I take the next reading, and from there I'll decide whether to ferment out completly and prime bottles, or just bottle. I preference is probably to ferment out and prime as I'll have a little control over the fizz.

Degsy

That recipie from HFW uses faaar too much sugar for the amount to be made.

If you see previous posts on this brew,1.3 kilos of sugar is enough to make 20 litres nevermind 5!

Also,and this is important you need to let it ferment out completely(about 10-14 days) or it will blow the hell out of any bottles you put it into..i've learned this the hard way!:)

TurkeyBob

sharingan wrote: »

One thing to note with elderflower wine is that it ages spectacularly. After 3 weeks it will be drinkable, but possibly a bit disappointing. That is also a high strength version you are making - it could be quite harsh.

Thanks for the advice Sharingan, I just bottled the lot earlier today.
Final gravity came in at 1.01 after ~3 weeks fermentation. According to the old table of potential alcohol readings I found on the net, should give me about 11.6%. I'm hoping the yeast will round this up for me in the bottle. This time I primed it with two heaped spoons of cane sugar.

Actually...that reminds me of another question. Some of the sugar is refusing to dissolve. I'll keep swirling it around for a few days, hopefully that will do the trick. But...can yeast eat sugar in its solid state (i.e just resting on the bottom of the bottle) or does it need to be dissolved?

I'll see if I can resist the urge to open one for at least a month!

TurkeyBob

Degsy wrote: »

That recipie from HFW uses faaar too much sugar for the amount to be made.

If you see previous posts on this brew,1.3 kilos of sugar is enough to make 20 litres nevermind 5!

1.3Kg for 20 litres? Correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am) but wouldn't this result in a wine of less than 3% volume?

Degsy

TurkeyBob wrote: »

1.3Kg for 20 litres? Correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am) but wouldn't this result in a wine of less than 3% volume?

Depends on the yeast you use..a wine yeast will conk out at a much higher alcohol content than a beer yeast...also make sure you leave it long enough for the yeast to eat all the sugar.

You probably wont get a drink at 11% volume but it'll taste better imo..

Khannie

Degsy wrote: »

Depends on the yeast you use..a wine yeast will conk out at a much higher alcohol content than a beer yeast...also make sure you leave it long enough for the yeast to eat all the sugar.

You probably wont get a drink at 11% volume but it'll taste better imo..

I think it'll still result in a very low percentage, even if fully fermented. 1.3KG of sugar for 20L is only 6.5g of sugar per 100ml. That would result in around 3% alcohol when fully fermented.

viper123

Quick couple of questions. I'm ready to bottle my champagne now, it's brewed out for the past 8 days or so, so I have to prime it beforehand, anyone any idea of the amount of sugar to use per litre? I'm guessing something like twice the amount as for beer given that you want it extra fizzy.
Also it's quite yellow and cloudy at the moment, is that by design or will it clear up after bottling?

BeerNut

viper123 wrote: »

anyone any idea of the amount of sugar to use per litre?

I use this to do the maths. You can ignore the first drop-down. I'd be shooting for maybe 2.6 vols of CO2.

viper123 wrote: »

I'm guessing something like twice the amount as for beer given that you want it extra fizzy.

Guesswork like that is the road to bottlebombs. Don't guess, calculate.

sharingan

TurkeyBob wrote: »

Thanks for the advice Sharingan, I just bottled the lot earlier today.
Final gravity came in at 1.01 after ~3 weeks fermentation. According to the old table of potential alcohol readings I found on the net, should give me about 11.6%. I'm hoping the yeast will round this up for me in the bottle. This time I primed it with two heaped spoons of cane sugar.

Have you bottled this in something robust? I would expect cane sugar to ferment down to 0.990, and you added 2 teaspoons of sugar at 1.010 ?

Store the bottles in a robust bag.

KevinRyanMac

Quick question: Is it necessary to add yeast, as the elderflower has yeast in it already (according to River cottage)?.

Khannie

You might get away without it alright, but I would add some.

Degsy

KevinRyanMac wrote: »

Quick question: Is it necessary to add yeast, as the elderflower has yeast in it already (according to River cottage)?.

He means the wild yeast thats on the flowers..truth is,wild yeast can be very unpredictable.

You may get off-flavours(like rotting fruit or mushrooms) or more likely it wont work at all.

Add some yeast yourself or you risk the whole lot being spoiled.

sharingan

KevinRyanMac wrote: »

Quick question: Is it necessary to add yeast, as the elderflower has yeast in it already (according to River cottage)?.

It has some wild yeast on it, as well as a whole eco-system of micro-flora.

It will ferment slower, and you run the risk of something undesirable getting established.

You also need to be pretty strict on your bottle conditioning or sterilisation if you want to age the wine for any length of time.

Going for a wild ferment is interesting, as you can sometimes capture yeast strains that have adapted to the fruit or flowers you are brewing. But don't do a wild ferment to save on yeast ...