Is Atheism a religion?

MagicMarker

Statistician wrote: »

Please explain the difference between these two statements:
"I believe there is no God" and "I do not believe in God"

I believe there is no milk in my fridge. I do not believe there is any milk in my fridge.

(Of course there is the whole issue of disproving a negative which would make atheism inherently a faith based system)

Do you hold the belief that I am a doctor? I assume you don't. Does that then mean you believe I am not a doctor?

seamus

Statistician wrote: »

Please explain the difference between these two statements:
"I believe there is no God" and "I do not believe in God"

I believe there is no milk in my fridge. I do not believe there is any milk in my fridge.

(Of course there is the whole issue of disproving a negative which would make atheism inherently a faith based system)

One is a statement of knowledge or faith. "I believe X". The other is the opposite of that - a statement that one lacks knowledge or faith.

Of course your milk example is typical false argument because it deals with things which we know to exist or which could exist.

Perhaps it would clearer for you if I phrase it as such:

Theist: "I possess a belief in a God"
Atheist: "I do not posses a belief in a God"

fitz0

It might sound like semantics but they mean very different things. 'I believe there is no god' implies an active belief that there is no god(s) which in essence is the same as belief that there is a god. They both make statements asserting something without evidence.

'I don't believe in god' is a passive non belief. It neither says that I believe there is no god or that there is definitely no god. It's more an agnostic statement than an atheistic one. You'll find that most regular posters here hold to this non-belief. It doesn't assert that there is no god(s) just that it doesn't seem like there is based on the observable evidence.

So, the first position, 'I believe there is no god', is a faith based position, while the second, 'I don't believe in god', is not.

EDIT: In the time it took me to write this, there were five similar positions posted. Sounds like it's lunchtime.

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

ALL men shall also be required to wear headscarfs.

I feel freer already!

Statistician

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Perhaps you could give me an example of something that I as an atheist, or any atheist for that matter, believes without proof (relevant to this discussion obviously).

It's human nature to have faith in things (or belief without proof). I have faith that I won't die of a heart attack today. I have faith that the desk I'm sitting as is made from wood. However, I have never completely broken it apart to prove this. I have faith that my coffee capsules contain coffee. I didn't analyse them to get proof of this.

I do not explicitly seek proof for everything, so therefore I must have faith.

I can take people's word for these things. Isn't that what Christians do?

Statistician

Statistician wrote: »

It's human nature to have faith in things (or belief without proof). I have faith that I won't die of a heart attack today. I have faith that the desk I'm sitting as is made from wood. However, I have never completely broken it apart to prove this. I have faith that my coffee capsules contain coffee. I didn't analyse them to get proof of this.

I do not explicitly seek proof for everything, so therefore I must have faith.

I can take people's word for these things. Isn't that what Christians do?

no because you can independently verify these things if you want

Statistician

bluewolf wrote: »

no because you can independently verify these things if you want

But I didn't.

oldrnwisr

Statistician wrote: »

It's human nature to have faith in things (or belief without proof). I have faith that I won't die of a heart attack today. I have faith that the desk I'm sitting as is made from wood. However, I have never completely broken it apart to prove this. I have faith that my coffee capsules contain coffee. I didn't analyse them to get proof of this.

Thanks for the clarification Statistician but I did ask for examples pertinent to this discussion. I'm sure that everyone has faith about something. I have faith that I won't live to see the year 3000, for example. However, you argued that atheism is a position of faith. How is it? What belief is it that all atheists have that is based on faith?

Statistician wrote: »

I do not explicitly seek proof for everything, so therefore I must have faith.

I can take people's word for these things. Isn't that what Christians do?

Neither do I seek proof for everything but my degree of skepticism is related to the scope of the claim or assertion. If someone tells me that they bought a new watch, then I'm happy to take that on faith. However, if they tell me that they have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe, not so much.

Yes, Christians do take other people's word for things. On the other hand, I'd rather honestly state what I know and can show to be true and say I don't know to everything else.

seamus

I think you might be getting confused between faith and confidence Statistician. This is probably because in other uses of the word "faith", it's often used in place of confidence, e.g. "You can do it, I have faith in you, I believe in you".

In religious terms, faith is sure belief that something is correct, in the absence of proof.

I have confidence that I won't die of a heart attack today because I'm healthy and with no heart issues. But I wouldn't say that I have faith (absolute surity without proof). Likewise for the table and the coffee. I would be confident that my table is wooden and my coffee is real coffee, but if you asked me to bet any money on it, I wouldn't put those chips down. I don't have faith that these things are correct.

MagicMarker

Statistician wrote: »

It's human nature to have faith in things (or belief without proof). I have faith that I won't die of a heart attack today. I have faith that the desk I'm sitting as is made from wood. However, I have never completely broken it apart to prove this. I have faith that my coffee capsules contain coffee. I didn't analyse them to get proof of this.

I do not explicitly seek proof for everything, so therefore I must have faith.

I can take people's word for these things. Isn't that what Christians do?

Obviously none of those are relevant to the topic, atheist can have faith too, just not in a deity.

But now that you mention it, are you religious because you have faith that you won't die today of a heart attack?

DuPLeX

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Atheism is the lack of belief. It has no central organisation, no holy books, no required practices or beliefs, no position on the continuation of existence after death, none of the characteristics of organised religion. This may explain my position better:

Atheism is (as I understand it) a disbelief in of denial of the existence of god not a lack of belief . You tube links are someone else's ideas not yours

It's called the composition fallacy. You are arguing that because science or atheism or anything else you choose to pick has belief as a component and that religion has belief as a component then anything which entails belief is religious.

I did not say that anything that has belief as a component is a religion someone else here used those words.
But if you assert that your beliefs and your world views are the truth and the only valid one and you have reached these beliefs by reading books or watching Youtube Videos or web links then you have accepted a manufactured truth or reality which was handed to you by someone else. It may have some validity, it may explain much , be reassuring in its simplicity.it may make you feel like you are superior .but in the end of the day ..... its a religion

I'm not certain what you mean by strong Christian other than perhaps a gnostic Christian. All Christians by default have a positive belief in God and so there is no comparable divide in Christianity as there is between weak and strong atheism.

Atheists have also by default belief in the non-existence of God and Like Christians some atheists put more emphasis on this than others .

seamus

DuPLeX wrote: »

Atheists have also by default belief in the non-existence of God

I don't believe there is no God. I also don't believe there is a God.

I am atheist. How does that fit into your definition?

I would also suggest that "disbelief" or "denial" are incorrect terms as they both assume that the thing being disbelieved in exists by default and that one is actively denying its existence.

Humans are atheist by default. We are born without any belief in god. Therefore "disbelief" is the incorrect term for someone who simply does not accept the idea of God.

Statistician

Statement A
'There is no God'

Statement B
'I don't believe there is a God'

Belief requires proof. There is no proof that God exists.
Statement B is like 'There is no proof that God exists therefore, it follows that I don't believe God exists'. Isn't this agnosticism rather than atheism?

Statistician

MagicMarker wrote: »

Obviously none of those are relevant to the topic, atheist can have faith too, just not in a deity.

But now that you mention it, are you religious because you have faith that you won't die today of a heart attack?

Faith is only one aspect of religion.

Zombrex

Statistician wrote: »

Please explain the difference between these two statements:
"I believe there is no God" and "I do not believe in God"

I believe there is no milk in my fridge. I do not believe there is any milk in my fridge.

(Of course there is the whole issue of disproving a negative which would make atheism inherently a faith based system)

This should help explain the difference between rejecting a belief and asserting the opposite of the belief is true.

Two men walk up to a closed door that neither has ever been behind.

Man A says "There is a large Indian tiger behind the door."

Man B says "That is silly, you couldn't possibly know that. I don't believe you."

Man A says "Ah, but now you are saying there isn't an Indian tiger behind the door. Since neither of us have ever seen behind the door you have no more evidence that there isn't a tiger behind the door than I do that there is. Ah you are just as bad as me! Hypocrite!"

Man B says "Groan. I'm not saying there isn't a tiger behind the door. I've absolutely no idea what is behind the door. It might be a tiger but it might be any number of other things, or nothing for that matter. Neither of us have any sound evidence to suggest what is behind the door or not. But precisely because of that I can say I do not believe you when you say there is a tiger behind the door. You don't know that, nor do you have any sound reasons to say it is true. So I don't believe your claim. Even if there is a tiger behind the door I'm very confident that you don't know there is and it would just be a coincidence that your guess happened to correspond to reality"

When thinking about what atheism is you have to first think about what theism is, which is supernatural claims by humans about the nature of reality.

You can reject these claims as unbelievable without having to make any claim yourself about the nature of reality. Man B has no idea what is behind the door, but he does have a good idea that neither does Man A. Any claim Man A makes therefore is not worthy of belief. Same with theism. These claims are unbelievable, they have no support required to believe them. So I don't. I can happily do that without making any further assertion about what an alternative might be.

Galvasean

DuPLeX wrote: »

Oh sorry I thought it was .. It is the title of this thread . so it must be .

surely ?.


No ?

In addition to not being able to form coherent arguments it would appear you aren't great at reading/

DuPLeX wrote: »

OK

DuPLeX wrote: »

but it is !

Arguing with yourself now?

Statistician wrote: »

Statement A
'There is no God'

Statement B
'I don't believe there is a God'

Belief requires proof. There is no proof that God exists.
Statement B is like 'There is no proof that God exists therefore, it follows that I don't believe God exists'. Isn't this agnosticism rather than atheism?

A good question, although not one that has not arisen (and been answered) on this forum many times. Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. In fact you will find that the vast majority of atheists are also agnostic.
For example I would consider myself unconvinced about the idea of a God (agnostic) and not believing in one (atheist) based on the available evidence.

oldrnwisr

DuPLeX wrote: »

Atheism is (as I understand it) a disbelief in of denial of the existence of god not a lack of belief . You tube links are someone else's ideas not yours

What is the difference, according to you, between disbelief and lack of belief. Let's take Christianity for example. I don't believe that the Christian god exists. The Christian story is full of inherent contradictions, factual inaccuracies and lacks any evidentiary support. The thing is though, my position regarding the Christian god says nothing about my position on Allah, Zeus, Odin, Krishna etc. Neither does it say anything about my position about the concept of a god in general. I can only evaluate individual god concepts as they are presented to me and weigh the evidence for them accordingly. That is why I identify as an atheist in the meaning of lack of belief.

I posted the YT video because I think that QualiaSoup puts forward a lucid argument and I happen to agree with his position. I never claimed that it was my idea rather that it is a useful tool to explain where I'm coming from.

DuPLeX wrote: »

I did not say that anything that has belief as a component is a religion someone else here used those words.
But if you assert that your beliefs and your world views are the truth and the only valid one and you have reached these beliefs by reading books or watching Youtube Videos or web links then you have accepted a manufactured truth or reality which was handed to you by someone else. It may have some validity, it may explain much , be reassuring in its simplicity.it may make you feel like you are superior .but in the end of the day ..... its a religion

OK, fair enough. I did state in my first reply to you that it seemed that you were making that argument. I was wrong.

I don't assert that my beliefs such as they are are the truth and the only valid opinion. As I have commented, my guiding principle is to state what I know and can show to be true and leave it at that. To reiterate, do I believe that any God exists? I don't know. However, none of the god concepts that I have ever come across have had even the slightest modicum of evidence to support them and so I identify as an atheist.

DuPLeX wrote: »

Atheists have also by default belief in the non-existence of God and Like Christians some atheists put more emphasis on this than others .

The fact that some atheists are vocal about atheism says nothing about whether atheism is a religion or not. You're about to wander into a fallacious argument, just like Statistician. The actions of some atheists are not representative of all of us or indeed atheism itself.

Finally, to get my point across I'll say it again. I don't believe in Yahwheh. I don't believe in Allah, Krishna, Baal, Ra or Vulcan either. I don't positively believe that no God exists. Show me evidence that your God exists and I'll change my mind. Until then, I remain an atheist.

ShooterSF

Statistician wrote: »

Statement A
'There is no God'

Statement B
'I don't believe there is a God'

Belief requires proof. There is no proof that God exists.
Statement B is like 'There is no proof that God exists therefore, it follows that I don't believe God exists'. Isn't this agnosticism rather than atheism?

Aha! So you're just arguing with a misunderstanding. Agnostic is about claims of knowledge it has no interest in belief. "I know god exists" and "I don't know if god exists" are gnostic and agnostic respectably. Theism and Atheism are only truly concerned with belief "I believe in a god" " I don't believe in a god"

I would say 95+% of the posters here are Agnostic Atheists by proper definition "I don't believe in a god and don't know if one exists". However some prefer to use the term Atheist as short hand because we don't need to prefix a lack of knowledge before any other beliefs (technically lack thereof). No one says I don't believe in ghosts but I don't know they don't exist. Replace ghosts with vampires or anything else.

oldrnwisr

Statistician wrote: »

Statement A
'There is no God'

Statement B
'I don't believe there is a God'

Belief requires proof. There is no proof that God exists.
Statement B is like 'There is no proof that God exists therefore, it follows that I don't believe God exists'. Isn't this agnosticism rather than atheism?

No. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, whether you know something is true or not. Atheism deals with belief. They are not mutually exclusive postions. You can, like me, be an agnostic atheist, for example.

MagicMarker

Statistician wrote: »

Faith is only one aspect of religion.

What has that got to do with what I said? Your whole argument seems to be based on atheists having faith, which has been demonstrated to be false.

Now, keeping in mind that atheism is solely a lack of belief in a deity, maybe you could expand on what atheism has in common with the other aspects of religion?

Zillah

DuPLeX wrote: »

but in the end of the day ..... its a religion

You have redefined the word "religion" to the point of ambiguous uselessness. It is so vague as to mean almost nothing, no one you speak with realises you have redefined words in your own outlandish fashion. You are failing to communicate. Clearly, though, communication is not your intention. All I see is sneering, insecure condescension. I would love to see you try and defend your opinions in a context where you could not get away with shoddy one-liners - you'd be eaten alive by a first year philosophy student.

givepress

Sarky

I'm too lazy to dig out my headphones, switch the sound back on and stop doing my job for the 6 minutes it would take to watch that. Can anyone give me a synopsis? Maybe even the guy who posted it could weigh in with an explanation or argument?

DuPLeX

seamus wrote: »

I don't believe there is no God. I also don't believe there is a God.

I am atheist. How does that fit into your definition?

I don't believe there is no God. I also don't believe there is a God. and I am not an Atheist

I would also suggest that "disbelief" or "denial" are incorrect terms as they both assume that the thing being disbelieved in exists by default and that one is actively denying its existence.

So if you describe yourself as an Atheist then you are admitting the existence of God..... I like it

Humans are atheist by default. We are born without any belief in god. Therefore "disbelief" is the incorrect term for someone who simply does not accept the idea of God.

Humans are born as babies.. not Atheists Not Christians...... Neither ! No religion .

Sarky

You are piss poor at reasoning.

MagicMarker

DuPLeX wrote: »

I don't believe there is no God. I also don't believe there is a God. and I am not an Atheist .

Yes you are.

Zillah

Duplex, would you please just make up a word that means "I don't believe there is no God, I also don't believe there is a God". Once you've settled on that word, use that to describe yourself and 99% of the people on this forum. We use the word "atheist" but you seem to have weird and elaborate feelings about that word, so please use your own if it will help you.

oldrnwisr

DuPLeX wrote: »

I don't believe there is no God. I also don't believe there is a God. and I am not an Atheist

Penn

DuPLeX wrote: »

Atheism is (as I understand it) a disbelief in of denial of the existence of god not a lack of belief .

Then you understand it wrong.

'Disbelief in' or 'denial of the existence' of God, would imply that there is a God, and atheists just choose not to believe in him. Atheists believe that there is no God to believe in.

Some people believe there is a god or many gods (theists/polytheists). Some people don't believe there is a god (atheists).

The theists and polytheists have religions. Some atheists belong to religions which aren't centered around worshipping a god or deity (Buddhism). But atheism itself, is not a religion.

I simply can't see how you fail to grasp this.

DuPLeX

Zillah wrote: »

You have redefined the word "religion" to the point of ambiguous uselessness. It is so vague as to mean almost nothing, no one you speak with realises you have redefined words in your own outlandish fashion. You are failing to communicate. Clearly, though, communication is not your intention. All I see is sneering, insecure condescension. I would love to see you try and defend your opinions in a context where you could not get away with shoddy one-liners - you'd be eaten alive by a first year philosophy student.

A first year Philosophy student, armed (no doubt) with a pile of books ROFL ..
I have yet to hear Religion defined in a way which excludes Atheism .( Except for the old No "supreme being" Chestnut) as for sneering That is all I'm seeing I have Stated my Opinions and defended them and Have not felt desperate enough to resort to the kind of attack in this post .

DuPLeX

Penn wrote: »

Then you understand it wrong.

'Disbelief in' or 'denial of the existence' of God, would imply that there is a God, and atheists just choose not to believe in him. Atheists believe that there is no God to believe in.

Some people believe there is a god or many gods (theists/polytheists). Some people don't believe there is a god (atheists).

The theists and polytheists have religions. Some atheists belong to religions which aren't centered around worshipping a god or deity (Buddhism). But atheism itself, is not a religion.

I simply can't see how you fail to grasp this.

...Because atheism is a religion

Statistician

ShooterSF wrote: »

I would say 95+% of the posters here are Agnostic Atheists by proper definition "I don't believe in a god and don't know if one exists". However some prefer to use the term Atheist as short hand because we don't need to prefix a lack of knowledge before any other beliefs (technically lack thereof). No one says I don't believe in ghosts but I don't know they don't exist. Replace ghosts with vampires or anything else.

Is there such thing as just an 'Atheist', without the 'Agnostic' part?
(Wikipedia uses the term 'Irreligion')

Interesting. I'm an 'Agnostic Theist' - which I didn't know until today!

Zillah

Statistician wrote: »

Is there such thing as just an 'Atheist', without the 'Agnostic' part?
(Wikipedia uses the term 'Irreligion')

Interesting. I'm an 'Agnostic Theist' - which I didn't know until today!

You could say Gnostic Atheist, though where one might find such a creature I don't know.

DuPLeX

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I am not Jewish nor Self Hating ,I merely value my own Opinions and don't feel the need be constrained by other peoples limited perceptions.
I know that scares some people but that's life ....

oldrnwisr

DuPLeX wrote: »

I am not Jewish nor Self Hating ,I merely value my own Opinions and don't feel the need be constrained by other peoples limited perceptions.
I know that scares some people but that's life ....

You're railing against atheism and atheists and yet you are one. Cap fits.

Now, so that we can actually resolve this discussion, can you please define religion as you see it and show how atheism fulfills this definition?

Penn

DuPLeX wrote: »

...Because atheism is a religion

How? We've shown in numerous ways using logic, reasoning, rationality and pure common sense how it isn't. Write down, as simply as you can, at least 3 indisputable reasons why it is a religion. Not using your own definitions of words, but using commonly accepted terms and definitions.

ShooterSF

Statistician wrote: »

Is there such thing as just an 'Atheist', without the 'Agnostic' part?
(Wikipedia uses the term 'Irreligion')

Interesting. I'm an 'Agnostic Theist' - which I didn't know until today!

Gnostic Atheist would be one that doesn't believe in gods and claims certainty they don't exist. You won't find many people who hold that stance though you will find people that are very close to it when it comes down to each specific religion people follow. Something like this:

"I believe in a god"
"Ok" (I guess it's possible)
"He loves me."
"ookkaaayy." Mostly harmless but on what evidence. Still to each there own.
"and he hates gays"
"Ok stop right there now. I want proof or I'll assume your god most probably doesn't exist when debating homosexuality and I'll argue his existence if you bring "his" opinion into the debate"

OT but it's nice to start getting ready for work with a glimmer of new hope for humanity. Thanks for that.

Statistician

'Gnostic Atheism' is a religion.

DuPLeX

Zillah wrote: »

Duplex, would you please just make up a word that means "I don't believe there is no God, I also don't believe there is a God". Once you've settled on that word, use that to describe yourself and 99% of the people on this forum. We use the word "atheist" but you seem to have weird and elaborate feelings about that word, so please use your own if it will help you.

I don't feel its important enough to warrant a name. To name and define is to limit ,It seems that most people believe only two possibilities exist, either god exists or He/She/it does not .. I don't

i'm a religion and so's my wife

DuPLeX

Statistician wrote: »

'Gnostic Atheism' is a religion.

Where do I sign up ? :pac:

Zombrex

DuPLeX wrote: »

I don't feel its important enough to warrant a name. To name and define is to limit ,It seems that most people believe only two possibilities exist, either god exists or He/She/it does not .. I don't

Can you describe which of the religious claims concerning a deity made by other humans that you do believe are true?

givepress

givepress wrote: »

well it's basically an argument believer's always make and is probably the best one they have.. like this.

Believer :Do you believe in absolute truth
Atheist: No
Believer: Are you absolutely sure.
Atheist: Yes
Believer: that is an absolute truth.

so you see it's a trick, you say no then you are making an absolute truth statement.
If you say yes then you have to agree with them.

By doing this they can basically dismiss science and everything man has thought of because it's relative.
#so my question was can something be an absolute truth.?

DuPLeX

Zombrex wrote: »

Can you describe which of the religious claims concerning a deity made by other humans that you do believe are true?

I don't care about Deities.... they are for other people . You seem pretty concerned about them though ..

Statistician

givepress wrote: »

#so my question was can something be an absolute truth.?

No, because we have human perception.
2+2=5

givepress

Statistician wrote: »

No, because we have human perception.
2+2=5

So what is the best way to respond to an argument like this can you give an analogy

DuPLeX

oldrnwisr wrote: »

You're railing against atheism and atheists and yet you are one. Cap fits.

Now, so that we can actually resolve this discussion, can you please define religion as you see it and show how atheism fulfills this definition?

No I don't wear a cap.You can call me an Atheist if you like , it does not make me one !
A religion as I see it is a predigested world view which is adopted by people who are too lazy to figure the world out for themselves or too afraid to live with unanswered questions .the older ones usually involve some sort of Prophet and/or Deity But these and increasingly redundant as scientific doctrines seem to be the new way

The Mad Hatter

Statistician wrote: »

'Gnostic Atheism' is a religion.

No it isn't, but it's also so rare as to be not worth discussing.

Gbear

DuPLeX wrote: »

No I don't wear a cap.You can call me an Atheist if you like , do not make me one !
A religion as I see it is a predigested world view which is adopted by people who are too lazy to figure the world out for themselves or too afraid to live with unanswered questions .the older ones usually involve some sort of Prophet and/or Deity But these and increasingly redundant as scientific doctrines seem to be the new way

This kind of condescending pseudo-intellectual bull**** really is almost beneath contempt.

Literally all Atheism means is that you have not received sufficient evidence to cause you to believe in a god. THAT IS IT.

Can you read? Probably. Rather, i think you're willfully ignoring what has been explained so far so you can stay on top of your great pillar of superiority.

Zombrex

DuPLeX wrote: »

I don't care about Deities.... they are for other people .

Then you are an atheist Sherlock.

It is that simple. You can object all you like but that doesn't change the English langage or the meaning of words. You are acting like someone saying they don't eat any meat but they aren't a vegetarian cause they don't like "labels". How old are you? This strikes me all as teenage rebellion nonsense. What next? You going to start saying that just because you have human DNA doesn't mean you are a "human" cause you don't want to get defined by species definitions. Who are we to tell you that you can't be a tree or a spider, you can be what ever you want to be! Stop oppressing me! :rolleyes:

This tread gets dumber by the hour. There isn't an emoticon to sum up how much your posts facepalm.