The Battle For Blackwater

Richard Dower · 20-05-2012 12:42pm #1

Finally!....some action and budget!

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/18/game-of-thrones-blackwater-photo/

http://ewinsidetv.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/blackwater.jpg

krudler · 20-05-2012 2:23pm

when does GOT ever look low budget? the production design is fantastic

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 20-05-2012 2:30pm

it doesnt look low budget because they take great care not to show much in the way of battles or anything that would require loads of extras

krudler · 20-05-2012 3:46pm

that pic is cool, lack of Bron this season as well he has some brilliant lines.

pixelburp · 20-05-2012 3:58pm

Foolish; For goodness sake, I keep reading this nonsense about a lack of action / budget either here or across the internet - it's like people are purposely missing the entire point of the show.

Two seasons in, and you'd think by now some people would realise the only swordplay in this show is when the various daggers are shoved into peoples' backs. I haven't read the books, but I'm not under the impression the novels are any different.

And as for comments about budget? Puh-lease; the show looks like a million dollars as it is. All those 100s of extras, the massive amount of CGI already used, the frankly astonishing costumes, the beautiful location work? Is that not enough?

Mickeroo · 20-05-2012 4:02pm

krudler wrote: »

that pic is cool, lack of Bron this season as well he has some brilliant lines.

Yea, he was one of my favourite characters in season 1.

iliketeaandcake · 20-05-2012 4:17pm

Some lovely images there. Can't wait for it, although I'm sad season 2 is almost over now.
I love Bronn, he has some brilliant lines in the show, my favourite being, re. Joffrey: 'You can't cure a cu*t'!
Brilliant!

krudler · 20-05-2012 4:34pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Foolish; For goodness sake, I keep reading this nonsense about a lack of action / budget either here or across the internet - it's like people are purposely missing the entire point of the show.

Two seasons in, and you'd think by now some people would realise the only swordplay in this show is when the various daggers are shoved into peoples' backs. I haven't read the books, but I'm not under the impression the novels are any different.

And as for comments about budget? Puh-lease; the show looks like a million dollars as it is. All those 100s of extras, the massive amount of CGI already used, the frankly astonishing costumes, the beautiful location work? Is that not enough?

this really, the costume design puts some movies to shame, the money is all up there on screen, the dresses, costumes, and especially the Lanniser armor looks brilliant.

pljudge321 · 20-05-2012 6:19pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Two seasons in, and you'd think by now some people would realise the only swordplay in this show is when the various daggers are shoved into peoples' backs. I haven't read the books, but I'm not under the impression the novels are any different.

True to an extent, however there are some extremely large battles described in a lot of detail within the books that have been given the offscreen treatment so far. I don't think they'd be able to do them justice without a budget that is a multiple of the current one.

Mickeroo · 20-05-2012 6:46pm

it seems they're building to a big battle at the end of this season. It kind of works better for the tv show to build up that way rather than having a battle scene every other week. The pay off will be better this way.

krudler · 20-05-2012 8:39pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

it seems they're building to a big battle at the end of this season. It kind of works better for the tv show to build up that way rather than having a battle scene every other week. The pay off will be better this way.

exactly, for me its the character interaction and writing that makes the show so good not action, or lack thereof.

titan18 · 21-05-2012 2:39am

pixelburp wrote: »

Foolish; For goodness sake, I keep reading this nonsense about a lack of action / budget either here or across the internet - it's like people are purposely missing the entire point of the show.

Two seasons in, and you'd think by now some people would realise the only swordplay in this show is when the various daggers are shoved into peoples' backs. I haven't read the books, but I'm not under the impression the novels are any different.

And as for comments about budget? Puh-lease; the show looks like a million dollars as it is. All those 100s of extras, the massive amount of CGI already used, the frankly astonishing costumes, the beautiful location work? Is that not enough?

You haven't read the books. The novels are different. Cutting characters, battles, lack of direwolf and dragons focus, a complete lack of horses and only the 1st book can get by with 10 episode seasons. Season 2 has been painful in what they're doing to trying to adapt it and it's only going to get worse as character count and battle count ramp up in later books.

Hopefully, they can make more money available for it, and that season 2 ends well

pixelburp · 21-05-2012 8:06am

titan18 wrote: »

You haven't read the books. The novels are different. Cutting characters, battles, lack of direwolf and dragons focus, a complete lack of horses and only the 1st book can get by with 10 episode seasons. Season 2 has been painful in what they're doing to trying to adapt it and it's only going to get worse as character count and battle count ramp up in later books.

Hopefully, they can make more money available for it, and that season 2 ends well

Uhm, ok that seems like a very odd thing to point out as a negative.

I took it for granted that material would be excised from the novels, that's standard procedure for any adaptation & shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone.

My main point is whether battles & action form an overall focus of the novels, or whether it's about the characters. The show makes it quite clear it's the latter that forms the focus for the TV adaptation, so I presume it's approximately the same for the novels. Whinging about the lack of swordplay and action seems a bit daft & naive & a serious case of missing the wood for the trees.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 21-05-2012 8:06am

yeah the first wasnt as bad but the second season it's really apparent they're telling someone elses story. they dont have the time for it all so they're just jumping so quickly between what seem like random scenes trying to give as much of an impression of what's going on.
its still the best thing on tv atm, but ideally it would have several more episodes a season so they could spend more time letting things develop naturally.

fitz · 21-05-2012 9:11am

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

yeah the first wasnt as bad but the second season it's really apparent they're telling someone elses story. they dont have the time for it all so they're just jumping so quickly between what seem like random scenes trying to give as much of an impression of what's going on.
its still the best thing on tv atm, but ideally it would have several more episodes a season so they could spend more time letting things develop naturally.

I started reading the books about 8 years ago, love them, but I've stopped seeing this series as a straight adaptation. I've started thinking about it as a TV show that's based on novels. It's not going to have everything from the source material, because that's not the goal. It's about telling the overall story.
I think when you start thinking about it in those terms, it's easier to just relax and enjoy it for what it is, rather than what you've already read in the books.

Sleepy · 21-05-2012 9:27am

I'd agree with fitz, it's a TV show based on the novels rather than a straightforward filming of source material that was written out of a frustration of having to write to Television budgets. I actually find the changes are making me enjoy the show more as, while I know where the broad strokes are going, there's some things for me to speculate about such as

who took Dany's eggs, how Jon is going to end up with Mance Raider after the deviation from the Ygritte story, what names Arya will give when some of the characters don't exist etc.

While season 3 is again, only going to be 10 episodes, it's only going to attempt to cover half of A Storm of Swords which should see less needing to be cut from the source material or perhaps more of the good additions such as the Tywin / Arya scenes from the season.

krudler · 21-05-2012 9:35am

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

yeah the first wasnt as bad but the second season it's really apparent they're telling someone elses story. they dont have the time for it all so they're just jumping so quickly between what seem like random scenes trying to give as much of an impression of what's going on.
its still the best thing on tv atm, but ideally it would have several more episodes a season so they could spend more time letting things develop naturally.

hopefully they'll bump up the episode count to 13 or 14, it'd give the writers a bit more breathing room to flesh out a few things, but then it will cost more so its a catch 22, they either cut and adapt stuff or try stretch the budget more at the loss of something else. this season feels like its just getting going and theres only two episodes left.

Mickeroo · 21-05-2012 11:23am

season 3 is only going to be the first part of Storm of Swords? So I'll have to wait 2 years until I can finish that book :mad:

Interesting, thats shorter than either of the first two books right? Will enough happen in that book to warrant a season I wonder though? I know in movies when they split a book into two parts it usually ends up like you're watching half a film rather than a chapter in its own right, the last harry potter would be a good example of this.

obviously that might not be the case, Tv shows can get away with the pacing issues and such.

ArmaniJeanss · 21-05-2012 11:58am

Mickeroo wrote: »

season 3 is only going to be the first part of Storm of Swords? So I'll have to wait 2 years until I can finish that book :mad:

Interesting, thats shorter than either of the first two books right? Will enough happen in that book to warrant a season I wonder though? I know in movies when they split a book into two parts it usually ends up like you're watching half a film rather than a chapter in its own right, the last harry potter would be a good example of this.

obviously that might not be the case, Tv shows can get away with the pacing issues and such.

Its a bigger book than the first two, it had to be be partioned into two different books for the paperback editions it was so large.
10 episodes would have been pretty impossible without leaving out huge chunks. 20 episodes may actually be too much but its a more preferable outcome.

Its the best book by a long way imo, so it's good that its getting this treatment.

Sleepy · 21-05-2012 12:28pm

It wouldn't surprise me if we see parts of A Feast for Crows or A Dance with Dragons towards the end of Season 4. As the structure of the books is completely unsuited to filming (the books time-lines run in parallel to each other), they'll be completely deviating from the book's narrative at this point anyway.

MitchKoobski · 21-05-2012 12:52pm

Looks like they're gonna do fine!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WYMZUuNruA

titan18 · 21-05-2012 1:37pm

fitz wrote: »

I started reading the books about 8 years ago, love them, but I've stopped seeing this series as a straight adaptation. I've started thinking about it as a TV show that's based on novels. It's not going to have everything from the source material, because that's not the goal. It's about telling the overall story.
I think when you start thinking about it in those terms, it's easier to just relax and enjoy it for what it is, rather than what you've already read in the books.

They're making changes for no reason though, and in comparison to what they should be doing, it's making the story worse. Bar the Dany thing, which tbf was needed since Dany's story is boring for ages, any deviation from the books is coming off worse. I can understand not doing things for budget reasons to an extent, or cutting characters since there's a lot, but changing things like Jeyne going to this random Talisa one, or the scenes with Ros in it are pointless

OctavarIan · 21-05-2012 1:46pm

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Looks like they're gonna do fine!

Book

No sign of the chain and wildfire? HUGE disappointment if that's the case. That whole plan was by far the best part of the battle, the rest of it was just vanilla.

MitchKoobski · 21-05-2012 1:49pm

OctavarIan wrote: »

Book
No sign of the chain and wildfire? HUGE disappointment if that's the case. That whole plan was by far the best part of the battle, the rest of it was just vanilla.

This image would imply differently.

fitz · 21-05-2012 2:44pm

titan18 wrote: »

They're making changes for no reason though, and in comparison to what they should be doing, it's making the story worse. Bar the Dany thing, which tbf was needed since Dany's story is boring for ages, any deviation from the books is coming off worse. I can understand not doing things for budget reasons to an extent, or cutting characters since there's a lot, but changing things like Jeyne going to this random Talisa one, or the scenes with Ros in it are pointless

Ros has been a necessary exposition device.
Jeyne is

not a fleshed out character in the books, she's a plot device...a pawn of Tywin Lannister, and ultimately how he wins the war against Robb. Rather than introducing another family to a TV audience that already have a fair bit to follow, they've trimmed it. I can't really see a problem with that. It's still going to get us to the same place.

Shorter, leaner, less developed versions of the intricate plot lines are just a reality of adaptation for TV. It's easy to say that the TV version of events is "worse" because you're aware of a more fully drawn version of those events. But we're not watching a book. If you try and judge the show based on what was possible in the books, you're not going to enjoy it as much as if you accept that it's a different medium and judge it on its own merits...

titan18 · 21-05-2012 2:50pm

fitz wrote: »

Ros has been a necessary exposition device.
Jeyne is
not a fleshed out character in the books, she's a plot device...a pawn of Tywin Lannister, and ultimately how he wins the war against Robb. Rather than introducing another family to a TV audience that already have a fair bit to follow, they've trimmed it. I can't really see a problem with that. It's still going to get us to the same place.

Shorter, leaner, less developed versions of the intricate plot lines are just a reality of adaptation for TV. It's easy to say that the TV version of events is "worse" because you're aware of a more fully drawn version of those events. But we're not watching a book. If you try and judge the show based on what was possible in the books, you're not going to enjoy it as much as if you accept that it's a different medium and judge it on its own merits...

The Jeyne change is really important. Just spoilering something I posted before on it

Rather important actually, if she was some lowborn girl, Robb would never marry her, been allowed marry her, or if he did, she'd be cut loose. The fact that it's a member of a family sworn to House Lannister and a very old house (something that the Freys hate) makes the decision more important

Ros has been in a bunch of scenes where HBO seemed to be just trying to get more nudity into the show. She was pointless in some scenes and at one stage had more screen time than Sansa and Bran.

If the writers and producers were going to not do this show justice, they shouldn't have done it. Season 1 was good because bar Dany, everything pretty much revolves around Ned. Season 2 is making changes that aren't needed and cutting some important stuff

fitz · 21-05-2012 3:06pm

titan18 wrote: »

The Jeyne change is really important. Just spoilering something I posted before on it
Rather important actually, if she was some lowborn girl, Robb would never marry her, been allowed marry her, or if he did, she'd be cut loose. The fact that it's a member of a family sworn to House Lannister and a very old house (something that the Freys hate) makes the decision more important

Ros has been in a bunch of scenes where HBO seemed to be just trying to get more nudity into the show. She was pointless in some scenes and at one stage had more screen time than Sansa and Bran.

If the writers and producers were going to not do this show justice, they shouldn't have done it. Season 1 was good because bar Dany, everything pretty much revolves around Ned. Season 2 is making changes that aren't needed and cutting some important stuff

On the Jeyne change:

I think you may be jumping the gun. She's been pretty cagey about her background. I suspect we may find out that she's just been pretending to be low born. Tywin's comments to Arya (M'Lord instead of My Lord), would seem to mirror this...we'll have to wait and see. Even if they don't, it still doesn't really matter imo. The important part of the arc is that Robb did the honourable thing. Even if she's low-born, his morals (so like those of his father) are what ultimately spell his downfall. He could have had his way with her and cast her aside. Low-born or Lannister loyalist, it's Robb's sense of honour to the first girl he sleeps with that screws everything up.

Any time Ros has been used on screen, it's been to provide someone for one of the main characters to talk out loud to. They needed some way of getting across information that was conveyed as POV characters thoughts in the books, I don't think it's something to get hung up on.

None of the changes have been too substantive with regards the overall story arcs, and some have been an improvement, imo. I just think the show is more enjoyable when you watch it as something based on the overall story-arc. It can't have every scene from the book, but as long as it's true to the characters, and main plot-points, it will make a compelling TV show. Expecting it to be able to cover everything in the books will just mean you'll be consistently disappointed. Enjoy it for what it is!

Tenger · 21-05-2012 3:20pm

Judging by that battle teaser I think we will see wildfire, listen to the last comment. The chain is a huge element of the victory so I can't see them leaving it out, it allows the wildfire to do its work.

The Jeyne/Lady Tilissa plotline works well in my opinion. No need to introduce the Westerlings, the important thing is the insult that Robb inadvertently caused to the touchy Frey's.

I agree that the TV show is still heading the same direction as the books, but it was always going to be different. They have to trim it down to more easily digested chunks for TV fans.

titan18 · 21-05-2012 3:30pm

fitz wrote: »

On the Jeyne change:
I think you may be jumping the gun. She's been pretty cagey about her background. I suspect we may find out that she's just been pretending to be low born. Tywin's comments to Arya (M'Lord instead of My Lord), would seem to mirror this...we'll have to wait and see. Even if they don't, it still doesn't really matter imo. The important part of the arc is that Robb did the honourable thing. Even if she's low-born, his morals (so like those of his father) are what ultimately spell his downfall. He could have had his way with her and cast her aside. Low-born or Lannister loyalist, it's Robb's sense of honour to the first girl he sleeps with that screws everything up.

Any time Ros has been used on screen, it's been to provide someone for one of the main characters to talk out loud to. They needed some way of getting across information that was conveyed as POV characters thoughts in the books, I don't think it's something to get hung up on.

None of the changes have been too substantive with regards the overall story arcs, and some have been an improvement, imo. I just think the show is more enjoyable when you watch it as something based on the overall story-arc. It can't have every scene from the book, but as long as it's true to the characters, and main plot-points, it will make a compelling TV show. Expecting it to be able to cover everything in the books will just mean you'll be consistently disappointed. Enjoy it for what it is!

It's not true to the characters though, or even the main plot-points. I understand things need to be cut and changed around for television, but

As I've already said on Jeyne, but to add Robb sleeps with her because she's pretty and nice, rather than learning of Bran and Rickon and his despair, and the fact he gets wounded driving him into a stupid decision.

Catelyn freeing Jaime without hearing about Bran and Rickon aswell is a huge change and it makes her seem incredibly selfish and makes the decision treacherous, rather than her being out of mind through despair. You don't need anything extra to convey about Bran and Rickon.

Along with those, you've got Jon and Qhorin not striking up a relationship, and with Jon being portrayed as an idiot, it'll look like he'll change more for Ygritte than Qhorin. There's no way they can do the change and build up a relationship between Qhorin and Jon at this stage.

Arya and Tywin's scenes whilst awesome acting are literally redundant after this weeks episode. She walks out of Harrenhal without killing anyone (so going down the FM route)

The lack of Tyrion's chain at this stage is pretty disappointing too. It acts as a catalyst for his future arc with not being given credit for beating Stannis, and with the wildfire being Cersei's idea, it's going to look like Tyrion didn't have much to do with the victory. Obviously, this can still change but it missed out on a lot of buildup.

Some spoilers from latest episode in the above so be careful.

The show doesn't need to do everything the book does, like I don't really care if the Reeds are cut, or how Vargo Hoat was cut, even though they're important in the book. But they have changed the characters and their motivations.

Also, so little direwolf focus, it's like they've been forgotten

calex71 · 21-05-2012 6:19pm

As I mentioned in the other thread the deviation in Jon's arc really did the series no favors, why thy would opt not to have the

chase across the mountains

is beyond me, it really would have added some tension and urgency, getting back to earlier points of budget, that is the only reason I can think of for that

Couldn't stretch to make a

cgi wildling horde of mammoths , giants etc.?

........ though thinking about that now maybe they just wanted that seen later rather than sooner for end of season impact?????

Riverrun being left out also struck me as being on the cheap , but that wasn't really a problem regards the show not using it as a setting.

Really can't wait now to see how they do Blackwater.

22-05-2012 11:08am

titan18 wrote: »

a complete lack of horses

A show on HBO called "Luck" got cancelled recently because so many horses died on set, this could be a reason for your "lack of horses"....

kronsington · 22-05-2012 11:19am

krudler wrote: »

that pic is cool, lack of Bron this season as well he has some brilliant lines.

Ah Bronn. What a great character. He's come a long way from this

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/44468625/Robson++Jerome+robjeromeblog.jpg

To this

http://i.imgur.com/ckCUk.jpg

Funglegunk · 22-05-2012 2:44pm

OctavarIan wrote: »

Book
No sign of the chain and wildfire? HUGE disappointment if that's the case. That whole plan was by far the best part of the battle, the rest of it was just vanilla.

MitchKoobski wrote: »

This image would imply differently.
bronn fire arrow image

As would this promo image:

And this entire scene from episode 5:

krudler · 23-05-2012 1:22am

kronsington wrote: »

Ah Bronn. What a great character. He's come a long way from this

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/44468625/Robson++Jerome+robjeromeblog.jpg

To this

http://i.imgur.com/ckCUk.jpg

I had no idea thats who Bronn was :eek: