Socialising an 8 year old collie?

ShaShaBear

I've had Shadow for 8 years in November, and he is my baby. He's a very well-trained doggy - never chews things he shouldn't, always goes toilet outside, displays impeccable manners when meeting all kinds of people, has never shown any form of aggression or attempt to dominate people even during Firework Season when he is terrified out of his mind! All-in-all, the perfect family dog. He currently lives in the family home with my sister and mother, and unfortunately does not get walked unless I come home to visit. Therefore, I decided to take him to live with me once I find a place with a garden (moving before the end of Summer).

The reason he does not get walked: Shadow is EXTREMELY aggressive toward other dogs. He will choke himself on a lead trying to get at ANY dog that crosses his path - hackles, snarling, that really disturbing dog-fight noise... you name it. Puppies, small dogs, dogs twice his size, old dogs - he does not discriminate. I have no problem taking him on the harness because I'm not afraid of his behaviour and I do exert control. I've tried walking him up and down past friends' dogs, giving commands like "sit" and "stay".
On one occasion though (I think this is worth mentioning), I took him for a walk where he crossed paths with an akita-cross who was off the lead (Shadow is neutered by the way). She approached with utter playfulness in mind and he delivered attack as always. The owner was very good, came running and apologized to me. I got down on my knees, put my arms around Shadow, and comforted him, and he allowed the bitch to approach, lick his face, smell his bottom, and she got a few licks in and had him wagging his tail. Soon as I let go, he went for her.

He'll always be my baby, and if I can never get him to socialise, so be it, but it would make things so much easier for him when he moves with me if he can enjoy a walk in peace!

Anyone got any tips I can do from home? I know about getting a behaviorist, which I plan to do, but I want to be able to get the ball rolling immediately.

DeeRottie

Poor Shadow, if he has been rarely walked in 8 years and missed out on socialising with other dogs then no wonder he is having such an extreme reaction. Glad you'll be getting him out of that situation tbh - may I suggest they get a lawn ornament to replace him and not another dog? I know that sounds harsh, but not every person is suited to have a dog due to not being willing/able to put the work in and as you can see from Shadow's behaviour it is to the detriment of the dog. I think he will be much better off living with you, as you obviously have his best interests at heart and are willing to do right by him.

At 8 years old changing this behaviour will be tough and take time but hopefully doable. Deffo get on to a behaviourist for an assessment. Also find out if there are any classes he can start doing to enable him to interact with other dogs - however inform the trainer beforehand as they may not run classes for more 'difficult' dogs'. Also please do your research and ensure that both your behaviourist and trainer have the correct qualifications - the industry is unregulated in Ireland atm so I could go out tomorrow and call myself a behaviourist and noone would be the wiser. And while I have done courses in training, I wouldn't dream of giving classes myself unless I had a diploma or degree - yet others with the same qualifications of me would ... Also if you are required to physically punish or 'dominate' your dog in any way then run!!!

Anyway, as to what you can do to get started. While I didn't have aggression probs with my dogs, they get so excited when they see another dog they lose the plot - bark, choke themselves with lead, lunge forward, and the little guy would cry/squeal if he didn't get near the other dog! So I started with the 'look' command - hold treat between eyes, dog will follow treat and end up looking you in the eyes, say look, then give treat. After a while you will be able to say look without the treat there and he will look at you. Then extend the amount of time he has to stay looking at you before treat is given. Then take it outside - on the walk practice getting him to look at you when on lead. He'll get really good at this, but it will take time, and go back a step if having problems. The next stage will be for you to keep an eye out for dogs and as soon as you see one get Shadow to look at you the whole way past - if he manages it, even for a little bit a first, treat him and make a huge deal out of him!

I see people screaming at their dogs, dragging them off on their leads, allsorts - only serves to heighten the dogs stress in the situation. I can honestly say that while it may have taken time and patience, and there were hiccups along the way, now I can have all 3 of mine walk past other dogs with their instinct to bark in check and their focus on me.

Hope that helps, I'm off to bed now after writing all that

DeeRottie

Oh I might also add you may want to start muzzle training him - trust me, you could end up with a warden at your door demanding your dog be destroyed if he does harm another dog - you may be able to control him, but you can't control other dogs that are off lead.

With the muzzle, you will need to work your way up to getting him wearing it - try shove it on his face for the first time in 8 years and you'll prob end up with a battle on your hands every time.

Look up 'conditioning' and 'positive reinforcement' for the most modern and up-to-date methods of dog training - please don't listen to the 'domination/wolf pack' crowd, as these theories have been disproved and found to have been based on flawed research. And now I really am off to bed ...

yellowlabrador

Does he respond well to treats? If you carry some in your pocket and distract him while there are other dogs present. I also think he's scared and protective. Would he do better in an open space and off the lead. I find that unsocialised dogs are worse when the owner is very close and also when on the lead. Once you move and make an effort 2x a day he'll calm down. I've done it with dogs I've rescued and after a lot of hard work and reassurance he'll settle down.

ShaShaBear

Dee, it's not in 8 years he's been barely walked, it's only since I moved out for college two years ago. The lawn ornament comment sounds a tad harsh as he is my dog, not my mother's, and the fact that she has housed, fed, cleaned and covered his vet bills while I got an education is something I am grateful for. I plan to take over as soon as I can, I wouldn't expect my mother to walk him as she is quite afraid of strange dogs.

As for the muzzle, it's worth a try, but I imagine if he comes across another dominant dog off the lead, he will only learn copious amounts of fear being unable to defend himself. I usually just turn around and walk the other way if there is a dog off-lead, it's just childish to continue walking knowing exactly what is going to happen.

I'd be terrified of bringing him to classes, it would set him crazy. Mum's next door neighbour just got a dog that he can smell and see through the fence, and he goes stir crazy outside trying to get at him. I dont know how he would react to a room full of dogs. I'd prefer some one-on-one training until both of our confidence is assured, then try something like that?

I really like that "look" idea, he's very smart so I imagine he could easily pick that up. All I want is to be able to walk him comfortably, this is completely for him because I can only imagine how stressful it is to walk around a park and keep bumping into people that make me feel like fighting :rolleyes:

Thanks for the advice though

I don't believe in the wolf-pack theory either. Shadow gets fed the same time as us, gets scraps, sleeps on beds and is completely spoiled - and yet is completely submissive. He does what he is told, when he is told The fact that he doesn't get on well with other dogs is completely my doing. I was only 17 when my dad got him for my birthday, and only learned about these things in recent years.

Yellow, I don't walk him off-lead, I'm not confident in his recall if he sees another dog, and if something did go wrong in that situation then I would be entirely to blame.

yellowlabrador

I wouldn't suggest somewhere that he can run away. Somewhere enclosed like a garden but with plenty of space. Also you would be in control, as the other dog would be a friendly one and you and the owner would be there. I did this with my Molly. She'd been locked up in a run, away from the farmhouse and with very little human, and no other dog contact. She was a nervous wreck and aggressive every time she saw another dog. It took me six months of hard work to socialise her and it was hard going. I only made a breakthrough using the above method. I let her loose and distanced myself from her. Then the other dog was introduced. Me and the other owner kept our distance from each other and the dogs were left to make friends. Molly started barking and being aggresive, then as the other dog didn't react. she quietened down and slowly made friends. After that things got a lot easier and now I can even have dogs visit our house. She is a bit nervous at first but I know she's a big coward at heart and scared. It also helps that she is very food driven and can be distracted with treats.
you'll get there, with familiarity and daily walks, Shadow will get better. Have you tried a halti to control him?

ShaShaBear

Ive just got a regular harness at the minute, it works very well and he doesn't get the opportunity to get near another dog unless they happen to be off the lead. If I see one, I usually just turn around and walk the other way!

It could very well work, but I think I'd have to do that with a professional instead of a friend, Shadow almost killed my neighbour's Westie before, I wouldn't want to risk something awful happening!

The Sweeper

ShaShaBear, lots of people have dog-aggressive dogs. I know quite a high number of trainers and breeders who think dog parks are a terrible idea and would never be caught dead in one, because of the potential fallout from your dog getting in one bad fight and how that can change how they react to other dogs.

You can probably work with Shadow to stop him being so reactive, but personally I think it's very late to socialise him and you probably won't be able to change his attitude to other dogs, but you WILL be able to change his reactiveness - e.g. you can train him to ignore other dogs, pass them by, stick with you, and trust you to get him out of a situation where another dog is in his face. In other words, you can teach him that you'll get between him and an approaching dog, and you'll remove him from the situation quickly and calmly so he doesn't need to have a go.

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I got down on my knees, put my arms around Shadow, and comforted him, and he allowed the bitch to approach, lick his face, smell his bottom, and she got a few licks in and had him wagging his tail. Soon as I let go, he went for her.

This was a TERRIBLE idea. Please don't ever do this to your dog again. It's extremely unnatural for a dog to be hugged, and it's not comforting for him for you to hug him. What you were actually doing is restraining him so that he had to tolerate unwanted attention. Imagine this - you're out and you receive an unwanted advance from a man who you have no interest in. You warn him off, but someone you know tells you that's not a nice thing to do, and then they come and hold you still to allow that man to continue to make his advance, perhaps touch you, prod at you, so on. Can you imagine how stressful that would be?

Your dog has his own boundaries. While it's important for you to ensure he never damages anyone else's animal, it's vital for you to understand that you shouldn't forcibly make him submit to unwanted attention. That won't help matters at all.

Collies are highly intelligent so with the help of a good behaviourist you should be able to achieve a situation where Shadow can be walked and can be taught to ignore the advances of other dogs, and doesn't jump or lunge at them when on-lead. Giving him a sense that his environment is well controlled and he is praised and rewarded for ignoring other dogs may also help him be less anxious when walked, which will hopefully have the knock-on effect that he's less reactive and fear-aggressive when he's out and meets another dog.

Basically I think your goal should be to control the behaviour and soothe your dog, not try and turn him into a different dog (which may just be very stressful for him and you ultimately).

star-pants

deerottie, please watch your tone, sarcastic comments about ornaments is not nice, especially given you completely misread the situation.

ShaShaBear

Star-Pants I think Rottie just misread the situation, thinking I meant he was being neglected at home, I could have put it in better context.

Sweeper, I didn't really restrain him, more got down to his level and comforted him, I was trying to demonstrate positive results to not attacking the dog. Again, it was that or have the poor thing mauled and then have a dog warden battering on my door despite the fact that it was her dog that was off-lead.
But I get where you are coming from, I just reacted, didn't really think.
I really am just hoping for a nonchalant approach to other dogs from him at this stage, for his own benefit. He's halfway through life and the last thing I want is to be stressing him out three times a day and have him associate a walk with agression with other dogs.

TooManyDogs

When I was helping my friend socialise her dog aggressive dog we would go on a walk together but on opposite sides of a quiet road both going the same directon. He would plunge and bark and my dogs would ignore him and his owner firmly keep walking. Every time he was quiet he got rewarded and gradually the gap in between the outbursts got bigger. They can't keep up the aggressive outbursts forever and if you ignore them and the other dog ignores them Shadow will soon realise that he's the only one reacting that way and it's getting him nowhere. You can gradually move them closer and closer together but always going the same direction, face to face contact can spark a lot of rows because it's quite rude in the dog world. If you're going to try this then make sure you pick a dog that is non reactive, if Shadow gets a reaction from the other dog it will only show him it is worthwhile being aggressive.

ShaShaBear

I dont actually know anyone in this area with a dog, that's where I was hoping a behaviourist would come in. I took Shadow for a walk in a park here in Dundalk, and if he saw a dog 30 feet away, he'd pull. Mind you, now that you mention it, after three walks a day for two weeks he only reacted when he came face-to-face so I guess it is just habit.

Tranceypoo

I have a similar problem to you with my collie mix who's about 3 or 4 years old, however it's not as severe as your dogs as Lily can be around other dogs , it seems to be only some dogs she meets when she is on a lead and it depends on the other dog as well, if they are friendly she will be ok, however the only place we meet friendly dogs is out walking woods and parks where other dogs are with their owners and I can ask 'are they friendly' and if they are I can let Lil have a sniff and all is good, so we'll have 2 or 3 positive experiences and then have a negative experience and that sets us back a step, walking the country lanes round here there are a lot of dogs who are just out roaming on their own or who are outside their houses and run up to their gates barking furiously, you never know when they're going to appear it's a flippin minefield and now it's affecting my older dog who will always react the same way as Lily.

Now I walk both of them in the morning and stick to the same walk where I'm least likely to meet other dogs (although no guarantees), in the afternoon I just walk Lil so am prepared to meet other dogs, this was recommended to me by a boardsie http://functionalrewards.com/ and I'm using it with Lily, of course the prob is if I'm walking the 2 of them and we meet another dog (which happened only last week!) it all goes out the window and I'm back to square one. Anyways, it's definitely worth a try, there's a lot of helpful info on that site and she really seems to know her stuff!! Good luck, it's an ongoing process I know myself, re the off lead, I think Lily would be better if she could be off lead but because I just can't trust her 100% I can't take the risk, as you say, it would then be you (me) that would be totally to blame if anything went wrong. So I feel your pain!! Good luck with Shadow!!

ShaShaBear

Thanks Trancey, I'll take a good look at that this evening. It would be great just to walk him stress-free!

DeeRottie

ShaShaBear, I apologise if there was offence caused as I clearly pointed out that I think you are a person who has her dog's best interests at heart and loves her dog. It didn't say in the original post that the dog had not been walked only since you've gone to college so it came across like he hadn't been walked in 8 years - and seeing dogs like this on a regular basis does mean I have a bit of a jaded attitude at this stage.

I think you are getting a lot of good advice here RE: treats and positivity, but I would disagree with the part about leaving him off-lead too. It's true that he'll feel less restricted but that's absolutely no guarantee that he won't get into an altercation with another dog, which would be a horrible situation to get into for all involved.

RE: the classes, I went to classes in the DSPCA and the guy who runs them had dogs there with aggression problems - I don't think I'm allowed to mention his name or dog school (or am I???) so if you want it you can PM me. You can find him on Facebook and I know sometimes he does offers where he will assess your dog for free, but I'd deffo think he's worth getting in contact with to see if he runs anything that would be suitable for you, or even do one-on-one classes at first.

Anyway best of luck with Shadow, I do hope it works out for you both.

ShaShaBear

It's alright Dee, I've gotten slated here quite a bit over the way Shadow is "treated" at home. Being a collie/bernese cross, I know he needs his exercise, but no way could anyone else walk him - it just wouldn't be safe, same as offlead. I just take comfort in knowing he didn't end up in a shelter!

I don't have a car (an hours drive from Dublin) but social classes would be great if they helped with dogs like Shadow!

DeeRottie

Lol I have no idea why I assumed Dublin, I don't even live there anymore! There's also a great lady in Laois too - again no idea if it's near you. If you come across anything in your area I'm sure someone on here would be able to review them for you anyway! Btw, what an unusual cross, I bet he looks like a stunner but must be very difficult for you to walk him with his reactiveness alright!!!:eek:

Whispered

DeeRottie wrote: »

Oh I might also add you may want to start muzzle training him - trust me, you could end up with a warden at your door demanding your dog be destroyed if he does harm another dog - you may be able to control him, but you can't control other dogs that are off lead.

Just wanted to point out that this is not the case, a warden cannot demand your dog be PTS under any circumstances, even if it bit a person, a court order is needed. Never mind if your dog was on his lead, and attacked another dog, which was off-lead and approached him.

I'm only saying so because I don't want the OP afraid to walk the dog in case it leads to it being PTS.

OP I agree that at this stage it might be a lot to ask for shadow to enjoy other dogs and their company, but there is every hope you'll be able to get him to stop being so reactive.

I would say that your best bet would be a trainer, maybe a couple of one on one classes to help you with control then a slow introduction to a group class. Where are you going to be based, maybe people can recommend a trainer in your area.

DeeRottie

Whispered I should have been more clear on that, but I just didn't want to go into that whole side of things here. The warden does have to get a court obtained destruction order to have the dog PTS alright, but if they receive a complaint they can and will do it. I have a thread in this forum relating to someone's Rottie X who escaped from their garden and bit another dog, doing some minor damage to the other dog who was also off lead at the time. The warden turned up saying that if the Rottie is not rehomed, then he is prepared to go to court and get that order. Loooooooooong story short (you can read the thread if you want the whole story) the owner is afraid of going to court and ending up with her dog being destroyed and is now rehoming her dog. So basically I would just like to warn people off leaving a dog with 'issues' off-lead, because I can't imagine how horrible it would be for someone to have the warden around threatening them, and from the sounds of things you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. And obv it would be horrible for the dog that got hurt too. Moral of the story: don't get yourself in that position.

Whispered

I just wanted to ensure that the OP didn't think her dog was in danger if it got into a fight with another dog who might approach him, while he's on his lead. I didn't comment on the thread you have but I would imagine that a warden would have a very very hard time having a dog destroyed for fighting with another dog. Especially if her dog was on the lead and the other was allowed to approach. Considering that her dog is not restricted, have a previous incident nor would he be out unsupervised. They are two very different situations.


I completley agree it'd be better to not get into that situation in the first place. Definitely.

ShaShaBear

Dee he really is a star of a cross, slightly brutish with all the physical features of a collie, but he's a whopping 52kilos and his coat is a lot thicker than a collie.

Very aggressive and scary, as you can see

I'm in Dundalk with no means to move around by car, so it would be absolutely great if anyone could recommend someone that I could maybe meet and work with in preparation of Shadow moving.
Whispered, I was never afraid to walk him, despite my COMPLETE naivety with regards to socialising him, he is very well-trained (he seems to have gotten the brains of both breeds, despite demonstrating regularly that he is very "touched" in the head ). He will stay if I give the command (although he won't usually sit unless I touch him when he sees another dog, probably on the defensive) so I can usually control him and avoid another dog once I stop moving. Problem is, sometimes you end up in a spot where you kinda don't have a choice but to walk on, and that's where the trouble starts!

Again, I know he likely won't take to being friendly with other dogs, but the reaction while walking is mainly what I want to work on, and other silly things like taking him to the vet or groomers without fearing for other dog's safety. He is a bit of a brute :rolleyes:

JyesusChrist

It is never to late to train a dog. I had a 13 year old collie who hated other dogs but I decided enough was enough and read up on the subject and of course "The Dog Whisperer" T.V show really helped. After a (long) time he wouldn't really bother too much with other dogs walking past us and even made friends with a Husky/German Shepard mix named Rebecca. The problem lay with me, I used to get really nervous when I seen another dog, once I learned to control my nerves and just chill he started to do the same. I know you're dog may need a different approach but just because he is 8 doesn't mean he cant learn! Especially since collies are the most intelligent breed!

Also. Cute Dawgy:D

Whispered

ShaSha He's absolutely gorgeous!

You obviously have good control on him and he is must very tuned in to you. I mean if you can get him to sit for you when another dog is close by when he's so riled up you're probably 75% there already.

I really think a good trainer will help you sort it quickly. Most of the time problems can be sorted by a dedicated owner, which you obviously are.

ShaShaBear

He's my little baby, we got him at 6 weeks (too young, I know) and I foolishly spoilt him rotten. Although with training there didn't seem to be any negative effects.

Myself and the boyfriend are taking him for a walk when I go home to visit on Wednesday, I've gotten a lot of great advice and some links to check out, so I'm really excited to see if biscuits can distract him from reacting to other dogs! If we can get him to become indifferent, maybe I can start letting him swim again!

planetX

ShaShaBear wrote: »

He's my little baby, we got him at 6 weeks (too young, I know) and I foolishly spoilt him rotten. Although with training there didn't seem to be any negative effects.

Myself and the boyfriend are taking him for a walk when I go home to visit on Wednesday, I've gotten a lot of great advice and some links to check out, so I'm really excited to see if biscuits can distract him from reacting to other dogs! If we can get him to become indifferent, maybe I can start letting him swim again!

not biscuits - use small pieces of sausage or chicken to start with if you want to really get his attention.

Whispered

ShaShaBear wrote: »

maybe I can start letting him swim again!

Has his level of aggression gotten worse since his level of exercise dropped? If he was used to having loads of exercise and a chance to do enriching things like having a sniff around and a swim, I'd invest in a lunge rope or a long lead to give him a bit more freedom for the time being. If he's frustrated it will make things harder to deal with.

Dodd

I just want to say you might have to do some work on your dogs nails if he hasn't been walked often to wear them down.

DeeRottie

Awww he looks gorgeous, some pose on him there! I deffo think you will see an improvement in him, it's not too late. And I don't want to start an argument about Cesar Milan here, but you should know that he has been widely discredited for his methods - the show is edited so you see what he wants you to see, you're not getting the whole picture. In fact, for entry to a degree course in training and behaviour I had to write an essay about what damage he and his ilk are doing to dogs and their owners. Anywho, I know a great qualified behaviourist in Dublin and I'm gonna ask if she knows anyone in Drogheda that she recommends. Please do keep us posted on how you are getting on.

ShaShaBear

Thanks a million guys

Whispered, no, he has always been like this with regards to dogs. Even bucked-tired after three walks he would do it. I think it might be more a guarding thing than aggression!

DeeRottie

Got a recommendation for a Louth-based behaviourist who is a member of the APDT - will send on the details.

Whispered

Yes I saw your post in the group I think Dee. The person recommended is actually on boards so she might have already even seen this thread, and is a founding member of the APDT, so couldn't really come better qualified.

(that is if I have not confused you with someone else)