Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 MOD POST #1130

whatawaster

Selling players at above their value makes sense.

I've always liked Skrtel, but anything over 15 million should be accepted imo and a younger replacement can be brought in. Agger+NEW+Coates+Kelly+Carragher is plenty of depth and if the new CB costs less than 10m then it's more money to spend elsewhere.

I'd rather he stayed, but there's no sense in turning down massive offers.

Kirby

Dickerty wrote: »

You don't think he'd get in ahead of Lescott? Sure he would. Kompany is the more cultured type, they need someone hardnosed to deal with the more direct teams. I think they'd be a great partnership.

Not a chance. Lescott is highly rated at city and he had an excellent season. I always thought he was overated and that the Everton fee was too big but its hard to argue with last seasons form.

He is also home-grown so they wouldn't replace him with a player who wasn't.

Kess73

Dickerty wrote: »

Some very good stats here on some of the players featured in the last few pages -

http://www.eplindex.com/14807/liverpool-opta-stats-season-review-11-12-part-one-defence.html

Interesting Stat 1 - Skrtel won 80% of aerial duels, highest of all our defenders by 16%. Of the 59 Premier League players to have won 40 or more aerial duels this season no other player has won a higher percentage (remembering that Vidic was injured). No wonder City are interested.
Interesting Stat 2 - Enrique won 81% of tackles, highest of any defender.
Interesting Stat 3 - Henderson won 84% of tackles, highest of anyone in the side. Of all the PL players to win 40 or more tackles last season, only 5 players won a higher proportion.

The latter kind of debunks the myth that Henderson couldn't play CM cause he can't tackle.

It does not really. On the very same site that you are using, it points out that over the course of the entire season Henderson only attempted 53 tackles. So his 84% success rate comes to winning 41 tackles over an entire season. Lucas is listed as having made 68 tackles from just 12 games to put it into context.

Also if you go through the site in detail, a lot of the tackles that Henderson won did not have a ground duel, meaning that he did not actually tackle another player to get his tackle stat.

If you look at the ground duels stats on that site you will see that Henderson came last in the team for ground duels and even Carroll and Suarez had more than him. Henderson had an average of a ground duel every 12.8 minutes but only attempted a tackle every 52.22 minutes. So he pulled out of a hell of a lot of one on one tackling duels.

Adam, Carroll, Lucas, Agger, Skrtel, Downing, Lucas, Kuyt, Johnson, Enrique, Kelly, Maxi, Shelvey, Bellamy, Gerrard and Spearing all come ahead of Henderson in terms of number of ground duels per game and all are ahead of him in terms of tackles per minute. Interestingly the player who is almost as bad, last season anyway, in terms of attempting so little tackles per game is Gerrard. Last season he averaged one tackle attempt every 50.5 minutes based on the minutes he was on the pitch, making him the second lowest for this.

If you use the same sit and look at his attacking stats, he is way down the list as well with only one shot attempt every 85.9 minutes, and only one clear chance created for every 887.67 minutes played. Only Lucas and Spearing did worse than this of all the players that play in the CM, AM, DM, LM, and RM positions.

So yeah Henderson has the stat of winning 84% of his tackles from last season, but the stats on how rarely he actually gets involved in a ground duel or how little he attempts tackles put his 84% success rate into context.

Jayob10

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Can't believe people are so receptive to the idea of cashing in on Skrtel. For years he's got nothing but abuse but now that he's performing to a high standard again, people think he's dispensable for the right price.

Loyalty for some, none for others. I wonder what those who'd like to sell him at the right price would say if his replacement ended up being a donkey?

Bar the latter end of the season, the defence was rock solid. Don't ****ing mess with a winning formula.

If Martin Skrtel is loyal he won't want to be going anywhere will he?

It may be all bullsh*t of course but if its not, pardon me if I don't feel a sense of loyalty to a lad whose head has been turned by Man City's millions.

a bid of £20million plus simply has to be accepted as he is not a player of that value. Skrtel is not indispensible to the club, as a certain dodgy pundit would say- good player, he's not a great player.

amiable

duncan jenkins ‏@duncanjenkinsFC
among the many B.S rumours #lfc interest in #borini is real talk. no bid as far as my mole on the wall is aware but more than just a rumour

Leiva

Dirks medical at Fenerbahce has hit a snag. They can't work out how such a big heart can fit in one single body

joe123

I really don't get this attitude. Agger/Skrtel partnership was one of the only positives from last season and now people on here are like "yeah let's go sell him for lovely money"

Sorry but I'd rather we keep our solid CB pairing and BUILD on that. Some people think its too easy to just go out and bring in new players at the drop of a hat.

Lay off the football manager.

Jayob10

joe123 wrote: »

I really don't get this attitude. Agger/Skrtel partnership was one of the only positives from last season and now people on here are like "yeah let's go sell him for lovely money"

Sorry but I'd rather we keep our solid CB pairing and BUILD on that. Some people think its too easy to just go out and bring in new players at the drop of a hat.

Lay off the football manager.

20million for a central defender who has had one good season in his last 3. Thats how I see it.

He was terrific last year, I just never rated him in the top bracket of central defenders. If there is potential to upgrade with the money we receive then we should take it.
We could find a player with more ability for less money IMO.

mada999

I think it's wise to keep our good spine of players and ship out the dross....

Leiva

Yea let's sell our best players and replace them with less able players.

Wait ain't we already tried this one ???

~Rebel~

amiable wrote: »

duncan jenkins ‏@duncanjenkinsFC
among the many B.S rumours #lfc interest in #borini is real talk. no bid as far as my mole on the wall is aware but more than just a rumour

I haven't seen much of him, but Rodgers obviously knows him inside out from Chelsea youths and Swansea. Seems well thought of at Roma too.

Could be an interesting one!

On Skrtel, I'd rather we didn't sell unless he really pushes for it himself. If he does, then absolutely rape City for whatever we can.

I think the 1 good season in 3 is kind of unfair too. His poor spells have all come beside Carra. While it may be that Agger makes him better, I actually think its more that he has trouble playing with Carra. He generally looks great at international level too with no Agger beside him.

joe123

Out with Meireles, in with Adam/Henderson. That worked.

Out with Skrtel, in with easily obtainable CB. :rolleyes:

Why spend even more time dealing with a position we don't need to worry about when so much more work needs to be done in other areas. Selling Skrtel would be such a foolish decision.

jasonb

I think if crazy money is offered for any player, we should at least consider it.

That said, it needs to be crazy money. Otherwise, we've enough fair or poor players to get rid of without getting rid of good ones! I'd be more than happy with Skrtel / Agger at CB for next season, so lets not break that up unless it's really worth while.

Even if we got £25m for Skrtel, that doesn't mean we'll definitely get a better CB to replace him. That better CB has to be available, and want to come here, which is by no means certain.

Of course, this is all speculation based on Twitter. But for the moment, I'd keep our CBs, who play well, and focus on the areas where we do need improvement! It's not becuase of our CBs that we're not challenging for the league ( or 4th )...

J.

amiable

joe123 wrote: »

Out with Meireles, in with Adam/Henderson. That worked.

Out with Skrtel, in with easily obtainable CB. :rolleyes:

Why spend even more time dealing with a position we don't need to worry about when so much more work needs to be done in other areas. Selling Skrtel would be such a foolish decision.

The point is his head seems to have been turned by City and if that's the case and he wants out I'd quite happily sell him at the price mentioned.
I don't think many are just saying lets just cash in on Skrtel, I think it's more the rumour is out that he's interested in going to City and he has 2 years left on his contract and is now 27 years old.

Jayob10

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I haven't seen much of him, but Rodgers obviously knows him inside out from Chelsea youths and Swansea. Seems well thought of at Roma too.

Could be an interesting one!

On Skrtel, I'd rather we didn't sell unless he really pushes for it himself. If he does, then absolutely rape City for whatever we can.

I think the 1 good season in 3 is kind of unfair too. His poor spells have all come beside Carra. While it may be that Agger makes him better, I actually think its more that he has trouble playing with Carra. He generally looks great at international level too with no Agger beside him.

I think that says more about Agger than Skrtel.

Maybe with 20million we could find a centre half who can play well consistently when Agger is injured.

Don't get me wrong, Skrtel is a decent player. But sometimes you get an offer for a player that is way above their market value. Ironically usually its us making the bid on the back of one eye catching season.

Skrtel is never a 20million player much like Downing never was.

There are value options out there at centre half. Coates is a ready made replacement anyways.

I'd bring in a left sided central defender in replacement of Skrtel. Agger will have fitness problems throughout the season at some stage.

I'd like to see us sign Vertonghen, for half the money we'd supposedly get for Skrtel. I just think it makes sense.

---

Coates

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Agger

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Carra

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Vertonghen

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Kelly

D'Agger

Jayob10 wrote: »

20million for a central defender who has had one good season in his last 3. Thats how I see it.

You saw him playing out of position for the majority of 2 of those seasons tbf

20m is hard to resist - only thing is, other clubs knowing we got that for Skrtel would result in us being held to ransom for a replacement.

amiable

It's been pointed out by other posters that Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa would be an excellent replacement at a fraction of Skrtel's fee

Kess73

Leiva wrote: »

Yea let's sell our best players and replace them with less able players.

Wait ain't we already tried this one ???

Who suggested replacing him with a less able defender? If Skrtel could be sold for £20m and either a better defender could be brought in for the same or less, or a defender who is currently as good as Skrtel but who seems to have the potential to be much better, then why not?


There are a number of good to very good centre backs who would be in the £10m to £20m mark that would most likely be an upgrade on Skrtel and who would be younger than him as well (not saying Skrtel is old).


Now I would agree with you if we were to sell Skrtel and bring in some overpriced and overhyped replacement like we did with our recent batch of English players that cost Harrods money but gave pound shop performances more often than not, but a bit of smart buying could see us upgrade on Skrtel and maybe make a little bit of profit in doing so.

Kess73

amiable wrote: »

It's been pointed out by other posters that Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa would be an excellent replacement at a fraction of Skrtel's fee

Pretty sure that anyone who has watched him play would regard him as an upgrade on Skrtel tbh, and would think that he would compliment Agger's style of play as well.

Jayob10

joe123 wrote: »

Out with Meireles, in with Adam/Henderson. That worked.

Out with Skrtel, in with easily obtainable CB. :rolleyes:

Why spend even more time dealing with a position we don't need to worry about when so much more work needs to be done in other areas. Selling Skrtel would be such a foolish decision.

I still think this will prove to be a shrewd piece of business in time.

Meireles is 30 years old, we got 15million for him. Its a case of either accept a big bid for him or offer him what he wanted (what Chelsea dangled in front of him).

You are then tied to a long term contract with a player entering his 30's with no resale value in essence. This is acceptable if the player is absolutely indispensible. But he wasn't.

Sometimes it makes sense to sell a player from your first XI. Obviously you have the proviso that they need to be replaced adequately.

20million in this market buys you more than an excellent replacement for Martin Skrtel.

Opinions will differ, I just don't rate Skrtel as highly as some on here. Good player for sure, but i'd love to see us replace him with someone better and still have money left to spend.

Jayob10

PaulieC wrote: »

You saw him playing out of position for the majority of 2 of those seasons tbf

20m is hard to resist - only thing is, other clubs knowing we got that for Skrtel would result in us being held to ransom for a replacement.

playing on the right or left or the pairing, I see him as a centre half.

Maybe we could upgrade to a central defender whose level of performance doesn't suffer when moved onto his weaker side.

NabyLadistheman

Surely it has to be a positive that Jen Cheng has been employed by the club. He has a vast knowledge of player's across Europe, their qualities etc. Over the past 12 months we have seen some amount of names flash across this thread alone. Player's who could be got relatively cheap as well.

I think we didn't have the correct people at the club last year to identify appropriate target's at a reasonable price. Hopefully that has changed now & it will be reflected in our dealing's this summer.

Jayob10

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Surely it has to be a positive that Jen Cheng has been employed by the club. He has a vast knowledge of player's across Europe, their qualities etc. Over the past 12 months we have seen some amount of names flash across this thread alone. Player's who could be got relatively cheap as well.

I think we didn't have the correct people at the club last year to identify appropriate target's at a reasonable price. Hopefully that has changed now & it will be reflected in our dealing's this summer.

I don't think that will be part of his brief, but i'd love to be proved wrong on that, he has displayed very good knowledge of the game and individual players globally

D'Agger

amiable wrote: »

It's been pointed out by other posters that Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa would be an excellent replacement at a fraction of Skrtel's fee

Until we get 20m for Skrtel and the price gets jacked up that little bit more was my point.

Don't know that player but I'm simply pointing out a potential knock on effect of selling Skrtel for crazy money

NabyLadistheman

Jayob10 wrote: »

I don't think that will be part of his brief, but i'd love to be proved wrong on that, he has displayed very good knowledge of the game and individual players globally

Ya I know he is head of communication's but surely he will have an input

amiable

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Surely it has to be a positive that Jen Cheng has been employed by the club. He has a vast knowledge of player's across Europe, their qualities etc. Over the past 12 months we have seen some amount of names flash across this thread alone. Player's who could be got relatively cheap as well.

I think we didn't have the correct people at the club last year to identify appropriate target's at a reasonable price. Hopefully that has changed now & it will be reflected in our dealing's this summer.

Jen Chang works in the communications department

Chucky the tree

Kenny and Comolli are gone. I've a lot more faith in Rodgers and Co. bringing in a decent replacement for sensible money.


Edit: Also, Meireles was 28 when we sold him Jayob.

Jayob10

PaulieC wrote: »

Until we get 20m for Skrtel and the price gets jacked up that little bit more was my point.

Don't know that player but I'm simply pointing out a potential knock on effect of selling Skrtel for crazy money

thats where the club should be smart, have an agreement in place with a club in terms of an offer, before Skrtel has even left. No point going knocking on a clubs door when they know we have 20million burning a hole in our pocket. This should all be done before the world knows how much we potentially got for Skrtel.

Thats how a smart deal is brokered.

Kess73

PaulieC wrote: »

Until we get 20m for Skrtel and the price gets jacked up that little bit more was my point.

Don't know that player but I'm simply pointing out a potential knock on effect of selling Skrtel for crazy money

Yanga-Mbiwa has just entered the final 12 months of his contract and has not taken up the option of an extension. He would cost less than the figure being banded about for Skrtel.

Do agree with the point you are making though, and I have no doubt that whatever we got for Skrtel (if he were to be sold of course) would have a knock on effect on what other clubs might look for with regards their own players, especially players who had a number of years left on their contract.

But the flipside is that if the Skrtel offer is genuine, I would expect the club to already be sussing other replacements and for how much.

amiable

PaulieC wrote: »

Until we get 20m for Skrtel and the price gets jacked up that little bit more was my point.

Don't know that player but I'm simply pointing out a potential knock on effect of selling Skrtel for crazy money

That's up to Liverpool to negotiate a decent and fair fee for the likes of Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa.

Nuri Sahin

amiable wrote: »

It's been pointed out by other posters that Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa would be an excellent replacement at a fraction of Skrtel's fee

Howedes too would be the other name I'd include. Probably a few more I could mention, but Howedes and Mbiwa would be the pick of the bunch for me.

Was going say that maybe with 'arry gone we could make a play for Vertonghen, but just after looking into it a bit more. Seems the player has said in recent days that he is still set for a move to Spurs. Shame.

Re: Skrtel, I agree with those saying we should cash in for the right price. We rarely ever do that, and miss out on the premium when selling. Skrtel will be 28 soon too. Got to factor in FSG's policy too. This is the best price we'll get for Skrtel I feel if you believe the fees being brandied around.

amiable

Is there any realistic players Liverpool could work in to a deal with City for Skrtel that people would like?

Besides Adam Johnson

DrumSteve

amiable wrote: »

Is there any realistic players Liverpool could work in to a deal with City for Skrtel that people would like?

Besides Adam Johnson

Silva?

missingtime

amiable wrote: »

Is there any realistic players Liverpool could work in to a deal with City for Skrtel that people would like?

Besides Adam Johnson

Probably that Guidetti fella.

Player plus cash deals rarely work though, but if we are getting their head of scouting we'll probably try for Guidetti anyway.

Nuri Sahin

Also if we could get Guidetti in a cash plus player deal, I'd take it and run.

Tusky

For all the people advocating selling Skrtel for about £5 million above his value: (he is worth £15m in today's market if he can continue his form from last season)

We really really need to stop selling our best players. It simply has not worked out for us over the last five years. Regardless of the fees we have taken in, we have not been able to replace them.

£30m for Alonso - good business you might say, but who replaced him?

£50m for Torres - more than twice what we paid! But how has that worked out?

£20m for Mascherano - still haven't replaced him. And don't point to Lucas, because at one point we had both of them in our squad. Ended up with Spearing playing in his position for much of last season.

If the bid of £20m is true, sure, it's a lot of money, but lets tell them to **** off and make a statement that we are not a selling club, as we have been over the last few years. We need to hang on to our best players and build on what we have. Skrtel has built an immense partnership with Agger, why break that up? It's one of the few parts of the team that actually works at the moment. Agger could probably build a similar partnership with someone else - but this is not certain.

~Rebel~

Jayob10 wrote: »

No point going knocking on a clubs door when they know we have 20million burning a hole in our pocket. This should all be done before the world knows how much we potentially got for Skrtel.

Thats how a smart deal is brokered.

...considering we're all here chatting about it on a forum, I think that ship has sailed...

I'd imagine any club we start talking to about an offer for a CB will know exactly what's up. Sure, they might not know exact figures, but certainly enough to inflate their own valuation.

NEDDURC

From what I have seen of Stefan Savic he looks decent - how do people rate him here?

I reckon Man City will probably sign another few first team players this summer which will increasingly squeeze James Milner out too.

Chucky the tree

Tusky wrote: »

For all the people advocating selling Skrtel for about £5 million above his value: (he is worth £15m in today's market if he can continue his form from last season)

We really really need to stop selling our best players. It simply has not worked out for us over the last five years. Regardless of the fees we have taken in, we have not been able to replace them.

£30m for Alonso - good business you might say, but who replaced him?

£50m for Torres - more than twice what we paid! But how has that worked out?

£20m for Mascherano - still haven't replaced him. And don't point to Lucas, because at one point we had both of them in our squad. Ended up with Spearing playing in his position for much of last season.

If the bid of £20m is true, sure, it's a lot of money, but lets tell them to **** off and make a statement that we are not a selling club, as we have been over the last few years. We need to hang on to our best players and build on what we have. Skrtel has built an immense partnership with Agger, why break that up? Agger could probably build a similar partnership with someone else - but this is not certain.

We haven't been able to replace them because we've had people in charge who have been terrible at it. That doesn't mean we should just stop doing it forever.

Kess73

Tusky wrote: »

For all the people advocating selling Skrtel for about £5 million above his value: (he is worth £15m in today's market if he can continue his form from last season)

We really really need to stop selling our best players. It simply has not worked out for us over the last five years. Regardless of the fees we have taken in, we have not been able to replace them.

£30m for Alonso - good business you might say, but who replaced him?

£50m for Torres - more than twice what we paid! But how has that worked out?

£20m for Mascherano - still haven't replaced him. And don't point to Lucas, because at one point we had both of them in our squad. Ended up with Spearing playing in his position for much of last season.

If the bid of £20m is true, sure, it's a lot of money, but lets tell them to **** off and make a statement that we are not a selling club, as we have been over the last few years. We need to hang on to our best players and build on what we have. Skrtel has built an immense partnership with Agger, why break that up? Agger could probably build a similar partnership with someone else - but this is not certain.

There is the possibility that Skrtel will push for the move as well.

There is always the risk that when you sell the replacement will be inferior and boy do we have plenty of examples of that, but there is always the chance that it could go the other way as well.

Kirby

NEDDURC wrote: »

From what I have seen of Stefan Savic he looks decent - how do people rate him here?

I reckon Man City will probably sign another few first team players this summer which will increasingly squeeze James Milner out too.

Managers like Mancini loves players like Milner. You can see it with the current england team too. They keep more "talented" players out of the team because they do exactly what they are told. Can't see him being shipped out.

Kess73

amiable wrote: »

Is there any realistic players Liverpool could work in to a deal with City for Skrtel that people would like?

Besides Adam Johnson

Kompany :pac: I really want the Kompany- Agger combo that I was dreaming of years ago up to the point City nicked MY player

Jayob10

Tusky wrote: »

For all the people advocating selling Skrtel for about £5 million above his value: (he is worth £15m in today's market if he can continue his form from last season)

We really really need to stop selling our best players. It simply has not worked out for us over the last five years. Regardless of the fees we have taken in, we have not been able to replace them.

£30m for Alonso - good business you might say, but who replaced him?

£50m for Torres - more than twice what we paid! But how has that worked out?

£20m for Mascherano - still haven't replaced him. And don't point to Lucas, because at one point we had both of them in our squad. Ended up with Spearing playing in his position for much of last season.

If the bid of £20m is true, sure, it's a lot of money, but lets tell them to **** off and make a statement that we are not a selling club, as we have been over the last few years. We need to hang on to our best players and build on what we have. Skrtel has built an immense partnership with Agger, why break that up? Agger could probably build a similar partnership with someone else - but this is not certain.

again, just an opinion but I don't equate losing Martin Skrtel for 20million + with us losing Mascherano, Alonso or Torres. These guys were indispensible for the first XI.

Not saying it isn't possible, but finding a like for like or better player than Xabi for 30million or less is a big task.

Finding someone on par with Skrtel or even better for 20million or less is not as difficult.

amiable

Reports from Turkey that Fenerbahce want Aquilani on loan and will pay 100% of his wages

Kirby

amiable wrote: »

Reports from Turkey that Fenerbahce want Aquilani on loan and will pay 100% of his wages

Whats the definition of insanity again?

Jayob10

amiable wrote: »

Reports from Turkey that Fenerbahce want Aquilani on loan and will pay 100% of his wages

if they want him, let the make an offer to buy. no more loans, I hope to god we have learned our lesson.

whatawaster

amiable wrote: »

Reports from Turkey that Fenerbahce want Aquilani on loan and will pay 100% of his wages

I would ask them will they take him permanently for free

Handsome Bob

If there was any more dignity left at our club we'd reject any loan offers for him.

D'Agger

Jayob10 wrote: »

thats where the club should be smart, have an agreement in place with a club in terms of an offer, before Skrtel has even left. No point going knocking on a clubs door when they know we have 20million burning a hole in our pocket. This should all be done before the world knows how much we potentially got for Skrtel.

Thats how a smart deal is brokered.

Kess73 wrote: »

Do agree with the point you are making though, and I have no doubt that whatever we got for Skrtel (if he were to be sold of course) would have a knock on effect on what other clubs might look for with regards their own players, especially players who had a number of years left on their contract.

But the flipside is that if the Skrtel offer is genuine, I would expect the club to already be sussing other replacements and for how much.

amiable wrote: »

That's up to Liverpool to negotiate a decent and fair fee for the likes of Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa.

True - I still forget that we have new management, my trigger reaction is to assume that we'll get fúcked in our transfer dealings because we've seemed to allow ourselves to be in recent times. Smart, Fair Fees - haven't been used to those in a bit.

I agree with all points though - have the deal lined up before we sell/if we sell.

ben.schlomo

NEDDURC wrote: »

From what I have seen of Stefan Savic he looks decent - how do people rate him here?

I reckon Man City will probably sign another few first team players this summer which will increasingly squeeze James Milner out too.

Wouldnt touch Savic with a barge pole, he looked error prone any time he played last season, yes hes young and he was thrown in there but if we let Skrtel go he needs to be replaced with someone better than a young player of potential.