Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 MOD POST #1130

doc_17

doc_17 wrote: »

Spearing isn't an option - at all. Not even for cover, Leauge Cup, Europa Cup. I wish he was but he's just not good enough.

I scratch my head when I read posts like this. You're being way too dramatic.

Spearing has shown on plenty of occasions he can fill in and do a job when asked.

He shouldn't be first choice which is what happened last year when Lucas got injured. In fact he was the only choice. Without doubt another DM should have come in last season to share the responsabilities with Spearing. He's ok for cover but not for long periods of the season.

Other positions are priority over DM tbh and it'd be hard to get an improvment on Spearing without spending cash and probably paying higher wages. Not to mention the fact that they will most likely have to sit on the bench for most of the season.

Francie Barrett

Being linked with the same old players today. Sturridge, Kalou, Sinclair.

Apparently Juventus are going to bid £94,000, a set of training bibs and two bags of match balls for Suarez.

Grayditch

If we are still playing Jay Spearing this season, I'm going to be very worried. His passing. My God, his passing.

skywalker

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Being linked with the same old players today. Sturridge, Kalou, Sinclair.

Apparently Juventus are going to bid £94,000, a set of training bibs and two bags of match balls for Suarez.

Juve do have some set of balls alright.

Francie Barrett

rarnes1 wrote: »

I scratch my head when I read posts like this. You're being way too dramatic.

Spearing has shown on plenty of occasions he can fill in and do a job when asked.

He shouldn't be first choice which is what happened last year when Lucas got injured. In fact he was the only choice. Without doubt another DM should have come in last season to share the responsabilities with Spearing. He's ok for cover but not for long periods of the season.

Other positions are priority over DM tbh and it'd be hard to get an improvment on Spearing without spending cash and probably paying higher wages. Not to mention the fact that they will most likely have to sit on the bench for most of the season.

It would be barmy to get rid of Spearing. He isn't good enough for the first team, but he is a decent Premier League player and considering he's probably only on £25k a week and he cost nothing, I think he's good enough to fill in for 15 or so games in the season.

spockety

Francie Barrett wrote: »

It would be barmy to get rid of Spearing. He isn't good enough for the first team, but he is a decent Premier League player and considering he's probably only on £25k a week and he cost nothing, I think he's good enough to fill in for 15 or so games in the season.

I'd be flabbergasted if he's on even half that..

missingtime

I'm sorry guys but Jay Spearing is not good enough for the squad never mind the team. Works hard and all that but he's not competing for positions and I think we need more competition in the squad.

SlickRic

yes, and Spearing isn't good enough.

he filled a hole last season as we hadn't prepared for a long-term Lucas injury.

his passing just is not good enough for the level we need to get to. no amount of hard work, tenacity and passion can make up for that unfortunately, which is a pity, because I reckon he'd throw himself in front of a bus for the shirt.

if we don't get DM reinforcements then keep him, but we need to be signing proper back up for Lucas (i.e. someone who can in some way control the tempo of a game in his absence).

whatawaster

Shelvey and Henderson played well as a midfield pair at end of season, sharing the defensive duties. much better than Spearing performed in that role.

pointless keeping him because a) he is no good, and are other midfielders are just as defensively sound as Spearing is, while offering more in attack

Name an improvement on Spearing that is willing to keep the bench warm for the season on (I'd imagine) low wages.

Chucky the tree

whatawaster wrote: »

Shelvey and Henderson played well as a midfield pair at end of season, sharing the defensive duties. much better than Spearing performed in that role.

pointless keeping him because a) he is no good, and are other midfielders are just as defensively sound as Spearing is, while offering more in attack

This is crap tbh. Both players are poor defensively. As a DM I'd take Spearing 100% of the time.

5starpool

Why can we never do our transfer business early, both incoming and outgoing, and stop these silly constant rumours. SIGN SOMEONE PLEASE.

murpho999

5starpool wrote: »

Why can we never do our transfer business early, both incoming and outgoing, and stop these silly constant rumours. SIGN SOMEONE PLEASE.

Early....the window only opened this week.

We did plenty of shopping early last summer and look what happened.

I don't understand what the rush is. Just have to be patient and wait for the right opportunity.

Sappy404

5starpool wrote: »

Why can we never do our transfer business early, both incoming and outgoing, and stop these silly constant rumours. SIGN SOMEONE PLEASE.

We've had a manager for just over a month. The transfer window has been open for three days. We're still hiring scouts. Have patience.

Grayditch

You cannot have a player on the pitch who gives the ball away as much as Spearing. I know its old news now, but playing him in the F.A Cup Final last season was one of the most frustrating decisions to watch unfold. It was then I really decided I didn't want to see him play in any game of even the slightest importance for us.

I'd like to see him start regularly for another team and be part of squad and do well, but... Right now, he's not for me.

Dickerty

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This is crap tbh. Both players are poor defensively. As a DM I'd take Spearing 100% of the time.

Go look at last season's stats -

http://www.eplindex.com/15811/liverpool-opta-stats-season-review-1112-part-midfield.html

Henderson has better tackling stats that Spearing, the best in the team in fact. And his passing ratio is almost on a par, despite often playing in a more advanced and wider area. Spearing is more successful in ground duels, but would be exposed to them more often. Henderson has the energy, tackling ability and distribution to play in that position. He did it for England twice this summer.

Grayditch

Jaysus, I would have thought Hendo would have been a lot more accurate with his passes than Spearing. Then again, if pushed, I would have thought Spearing would have completed more tackles.

klose

Dickerty wrote: »

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This is crap tbh. Both players are poor defensively. As a DM I'd take Spearing 100% of the time.

Go look at last season's stats -

http://www.eplindex.com/15811/liverpool-opta-stats-season-review-1112-part-midfield.html

Henderson has better tackling stats that Spearing, the best in the team in fact. And his passing ratio is almost on a par, despite playing in a more advanced and widee area. Spearing is more successful in ground duels, but would be exposed to them more often. Henderson has the energy, tackling ability and distribution to play in that position. He did it for England twice this summer.

Somebody pulled that stat a while ago and someone else commented that hendo only made around 90 tackles or something so its not a solid fact. Dunno about spearings tackle stats. Hendo cant play dm atm and would need a good while to make that transfer.
Although spearing Isint the best footballer he gets a lot of harsh criticism here, almost feel people have a personal thing against him. Some mentioned about the fa cup final with spearing, we where terrible in it as a whole till we went 2-0 down anyways.
Also we've 4 competitions next season, we need a large squad, id like to see someone bought in for a reasonable fee to cover for Lucas, keep in mind that Lucas won't be able to play every game as he won't be fit enough so the other player can step in then so he's not exactly a bench warmer.
Spearing then for Europa and early rounds of the cups, let's all pray Lucas comes back the player he left

whatawaster

Grayditch wrote: »

Jaysus, I would have thought Hendo would have been a lot more accurate with his passes than Spearing. Then again, if pushed, I would have thought Spearing would have completed more tackles.

Pass accuracy tends to decrease the further forward you get.

what those stats say to me is that Henderson is capable defensively, but doesn't get involved in tackles or ground duels as often as other players. Something to improve on, but I do think he has excellent work rate. He tends to press players but then not dive in to win the ball. not necessarily a bad thing

Kess put Hendersons great tackle % to bed a few days ago iirc.

opr

Peoples perceptions of what kind of player Spearing is are completely warped. The guy came up through the age groups as a ball playing centre mid. He was for the most part the more progressive of the two in the centre. The role he was asked to perform in covering for Lucas isn't really his game and he obviously struggled massively. If he had of been beside Lucas he wouldn't have looked nearly as poor similar to Adam. That said I don't think he's good enough.

Opr

Chucky the tree

Dickerty wrote: »

Go look at last season's stats -

http://www.eplindex.com/15811/liverpool-opta-stats-season-review-1112-part-midfield.html

Henderson has better tackling stats that Spearing, the best in the team in fact. And his passing ratio is almost on a par, despite often playing in a more advanced and wider area. Spearing is more successful in ground duels, but would be exposed to them more often. Henderson has the energy, tackling ability and distribution to play in that position. He did it for England twice this summer.

Having a DM who tackles every 52 minutes should see us in great shape. :rolleyes:

D'Agger

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Having a DM who tackles every 52 minutes should see us in great shape. :rolleyes:

He wasn't playing as a DM when he recorded that stat tbf - alot less traffic on the right wing

Dickerty

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Having a DM who tackles every 52 minutes should see us in great shape. :rolleyes:

He only tackles that rarely because he plays in a wide or more advanced position. About the same figure as Stevie (50 mins). But when Stevie tackles you, you stay tackled!

He's also moreso the type of player to stand someone up, make it hard for them to get beyond him. If he was more central and further back, he'd have to do that a lot more...

whatawaster

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Dickerty wrote: »

Go look at last season's stats -

http://www.eplindex.com/15811/liverpool-opta-stats-season-review-1112-part-midfield.html

Henderson has better tackling stats that Spearing, the best in the team in fact. And his passing ratio is almost on a par, despite often playing in a more advanced and wider area. Spearing is more successful in ground duels, but would be exposed to them more often. Henderson has the energy, tackling ability and distribution to play in that position. He did it for England twice this summer.

Having a DM who tackles every 52 minutes should see us in great shape. :rolleyes:

He played most of last season on the right flank

Chucky the tree

Dickerty wrote: »

He only tackles that rarely because he plays in a wide or more advanced position. About the same figure as Stevie (50 mins). But when Stevie tackles you, you stay tackled!

He's also moreso the type of player to stand someone up, make it hard for them to get beyond him. If he was more central and further back, he'd have to do that a lot more...

The less tackles you make the higher the success rate should be. Having a high success % when you tackle very rarely is no sign that he'll be able to play as DM.

whatawaster

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Dickerty wrote: »

He only tackles that rarely because he plays in a wide or more advanced position. About the same figure as Stevie (50 mins). But when Stevie tackles you, you stay tackled!

He's also moreso the type of player to stand someone up, make it hard for them to get beyond him. If he was more central and further back, he'd have to do that a lot more...

The less tackles you make the higher the success rate should be.

How do you figure that out?

Should Messi have a higher tackle % than Mascherano?

Chucky the tree

whatawaster wrote: »

How do you figure that out?

Should Messi have a higher tackle % than Mascherano?

Because when you tackle less often it's easier to pick and choose which tackles to make. If Messi pulled out of tackles as often as Henderson then I wouldn't be surprised if he'd have a higher tackle % than Mascherano. If a player is making 51 tackles a season I'd expect him to winning a lot of them.

Dickerty

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The less tackles you make the higher the success rate should be. Having a high success % when you tackle very rarely is no sign that he'll be able to play as DM.

Nonsense. It shows that you know WHEN to tackle and when to stay on your feet. Many players don't have that knowledge - Paul Scholes, I'm looking your direction!

whatawaster

http://www.aliverbirduponmychest.com/2012/05/season-in-stats.html

Henderson's tally of 54 interceptions was the highest in the Premier League

Interceptions are often preferable to tackles because they are more likely to retain possession for your team.

this, combined with his low tackle count and high tackle success rate - tell me that he has decent decision-making defensively

Chucky the tree

Dickerty wrote: »

Nonsense. It shows that you know WHEN to tackle and when to stay on your feet. Many players don't have that knowledge - Paul Scholes, I'm looking your direction!

Or it shows when you don't have the balls to make a tackle. As for staying on his feet, that would be handy if he was able to staying on his feet and still make a tackle. He won 41% of ground duels last year, Spearing won 58%.

Kess73

Awww no. Not the Henderson as a tackling defensive midfielder debate again. The guy had the worst rate, if I remember right, of personal duels in the entire first team outfield squad. Yes his tackle rate looks good in isolation, but his personal dual rate adds a bit more depth to the debate.


Suarez, Carroll, and Downing beat him on that front if one wants to avoid pitting Henderson's stats against midfielders.


I really don't see how anyone could think that Henderson could be good cover for Lucas should Lucas get injured next season. We saw this season exactly what kind of cover the squad had when Lucas got injured. Henderson should not be expected to be able to do what Lucas does because Henderson is a very different style of player to Lucas and he is also an inferior player to Lucas in terms of heart/courage. Then again that comment does not hold true to just Henderson alone though, last season showed that none of of midfield options were good enough to marshall the midfield without Lucas there to cover the cracks.


Hendersdon as cover for Lucas is a no go in my eyes. Whatever else Henderson may be as a player, he is not good enough to stand in for Lucas, and not good enough to play in a DM role that requires a lot of physical battles. Would be folly to use him in that role, and would do the team no favours.

redzerdrog

while i don't think henderson is anywhere near good enough to cover for lucas i do think he will be perfect in the role beside him ( joe allens role) and actually looking forward to seeing him play there this year. I think he might just suprise a few people.

whatawaster

redzerdrog wrote: »

while i don't think henderson is anywhere near good enough to cover for lucas i do think he will be perfect in the role beside him ( joe allens role) and actually looking forward to seeing him play there this year. I think he might just suprise a few people.

100% agree with this

Giggsy11

whatawaster wrote: »

http://www.aliverbirduponmychest.com/2012/05/season-in-stats.html

Henderson's tally of 54 interceptions was the highest in the Premier League

Carrick averaged 2.5 interceptions per game (Not 100% sure, have to check again) and he played over 30 games, so surely he has intecepted more passes than Henderson?

D'Agger

Kess73 wrote: »

Awww no. Not the Henderson as a tackling defensive midfielder debate again. The guy had the worst rate, if I remember right, of personal duels in the entire first team outfield squad. Yes his tackle rate looks good in isolation, but his personal dual rate adds a bit more depth to the debate.


Suarez, Carroll, and Downing beat him on that front if one wants to avoid pitting Henderson's stats against midfielders.

Out of interest would that stat include Henderson attempting to beat his man on the wing? i.e. taking on and going past players?

From previous posts it's clear I like Henderson and perhaps I do jump to his defense when it's not warranted, but I do think the guy is a talent and will be a very good CM for us, given the chance to play in CM

Peoples perception of him based on last year annoys me a little - he was out on the right and it's not a position that suits him, add onto that, the English media painting him out to be the second coming of Christ after some solid performances for Sunderland.

I hope he'll come through because, while you've mentioned that he may lack heart etc. I'm well and truly hoping that he'll come back this season with a determination to prove the doubters wrong - we've all heard the stories about his work ethic in training etc. so I do think he'll do it - given the chance.

redzerdrog

redzerdrog wrote: »

while i don't think henderson is anywhere near good enough to cover for lucas i do think he will be perfect in the role beside him ( joe allens role) and actually looking forward to seeing him play there this year. I think he might just suprise a few people.

Now that's a different argument.

When played as a CM Henderson impressed me at times.

SlickRic

whatawaster wrote: »

He tends to press players but then not dive in to win the ball. not necessarily a bad thing

i'm not in any way comparing him to Busquets in terms of quality, but that's generally how he in particular, as well as much of the Barcelona midfield, defend.

he just needs to be fitter, and the whole team needs to press for it to work.

he also needs to improve his positioning for it to work. he needs to be on top of a player as they receive the ball for it to be successful, and that's why Barca and Busquets are so good at it.

Vicxas

Football 365 are running a rumour that Juventus want Suarez...

Dickerty

Perhaps we have gone too far on this. Yes, he can be a good CM. No, he's no Lucas. Yes, I'm glad we signed him.

So has Jovetic arrived yet? Will Gylfi be using the Babelcopter?

Dickerty

Vicxas wrote: »

Football 365 are running a rumour that Juventus want Suarez...

Good for them! Boss man has already said today he's not leaving and we are talking on a new contract...

billymitchell

SlickRic wrote: »

i'm not in any way comparing him to Busquets in terms of quality, but that's generally how he in particular, as well as much of the Barcelona midfield, defend.

he just needs to be fitter, and the whole team needs to press for it to work.

he also needs to improve his positioning for it to work. he needs to be on top of a player as they receive the ball for it to be successful, and that's why Barca and Busquets are so good at it.

All Liverpool midfielders need to improve their positioning, it was woeful last year.

Dickerty

billymitchell wrote: »

All Liverpool midfielders need to improve their positioning, it was woeful last year.

Reina seems to get it....

whatawaster

billymitchell wrote: »

All Liverpool midfielders need to improve their positioning, it was woeful last year.

I don't think our manager prepared them terribly well.

Rodgers seems to be all about shape and positioning

Sir Gallagher

billymitchell wrote: »

All Liverpool midfielders need to improve their positioning, it was woeful last year.

2nd half of the CC semi-final against City was the probably the most extreme case of this. We got through it thank god but it was a shambles.

slingerz

Dickerty wrote: »

Perhaps we have gone too far on this. Yes, he can be a good CM. No, he's no Lucas. Yes, I'm glad we signed him.

So has Jovetic arrived yet? Will Gylfi be using the Babelcopter?

TBF Lucas when he arrived wasnt a well thought of DM either. I think its a role that Henderson could fill if push came to shove although he'll never be the out and out destructive influence that Masherano was he will be quite a capable centre midfielder, already mentioned in a role akin to what Joe Allen had at Swansea

Kess73

PaulieC wrote: »

Out of interest would that stat include Henderson attempting to beat his man on the wing? i.e. taking on and going past players?

From previous posts it's clear I like Henderson and perhaps I do jump to his defense when it's not warranted, but I do think the guy is a talent and will be a very good CM for us, given the chance to play in CM

Peoples perception of him based on last year annoys me a little - he was out on the right and it's not a position that suits him, add onto that, the English media painting him out to be the second coming of Christ after some solid performances for Sunderland.

I hope he'll come through because, while you've mentioned that he may lack heart etc. I'm well and truly hoping that he'll come back this season with a determination to prove the doubters wrong - we've all heard the stories about his work ethic in training etc. so I do think he'll do it - given the chance.

Granted most people say that Henderson would excel in a cm role and that putting him on the right put the player at a disadvantage. But was Henderson even bought as a CM to start with? He had two full seasons before he joined Liverpool where he mostly played at RM for Sunderland so it is not as though the role was alien to him.

I know people will say that he plays in CM for the Englan u-21, but I would pay more heed as to where he played week in week out at club level over an under age international set up that he would play with a smaller number of times a year.

I do think that there might be a reclyer style midfielder in him, but that role usually require the player to be able to show initiative and that is something that Henderson lacks badly at present inho. I think he is the type of player/person who needs pretty defined parameters in his role and that he does better when he has that. The way he filled in at right back kind of backs this up as he was put in a role and he worked that narrow channel quite well, and did not have to do anything that required any sort of outside the box thinking.

I do think that he lacks in courage, but plenty of players could have that said about them and many of them have gone on to be good players. I think the biggest flaw in Henderson's game is that he comes across as a bit of a stupid footballer in that he is slow to spot an obvious pass, slow to spot a run, or slow to twig that if he moved quickly after giving a pass that he would be able to receive the ball back quickly in the better position.

Granted he is still youngish in footballing terms, but many of the players that people have mentioned on here in terms of who they would like to see at Liverpool are around the same age as Henderson and many are younger, and they all seem far more rounded players and far more developed. Henderson may come good, but if he plays the coming season the way he played a large chunk of last season, then I really don't see him amounting to much. Huge season for him as he needs to step up his game to a huge degree and also become consistent in terms of being able to stay at that level.


Just to bring age and money into it a little.

Henderson was 21 when we got him for £16m (plus almost four million in future add ons) and is now 22.

Just to throw out a few of my usual names and see how they and Henderson match up.

Moussa Sissoko. 22 years of age. Big, powerful, tough tackler, quick, good passer. Very good in defence and good going forward. Would rate him as being a good few levels better than Henderson and would be in the £10m to £12m.


Markus Henriksen. 19 years of age, turns 20 towards the end of this month. Tall, strong, good tackler, good passer, can defend and attack. Seems to be a natural leader even when playing with guys up to ten years his senior. Seems to already to be capable of stepping in against international level players and looking a match for them. Probably in the £10m range at present, maybe less.

Younes Belhanda. 22 years of age. Four months older than Henderson. Huge amount of attacking talent be it in CM, CAM, or out wide. Great passing range, and excellent playmaker and attacker. Probably in the £12m to £20m range.


All three are in the Henderson price bracket or less and all three are in the same age bracket but I would take any of them over Henderson because I would have more confidence on any of them being able to impose themselves onto a game, and would have confidence in their abilities because it is pretty obvious what each is good at because they back it up week in week out on the pitch. Now can anyone come on here and say exactly what Henderson is good at and what qualities does he impose onto a game week in week out? No I doubt anyone can. I reckon many can come on and say what it looks like Henderson might be able to do or what he might develop into, but trying to pin down things that he does bring week in week out is difficult.

If I go slightly older than Henderson but try to say in the same price bracket or less, then we get names like Ever Banega, Steven Defour, or even Gary Medel (threw Medel in since people are making an arguement for Henderson as a DM:)) I can see exactly what those three bring to games on a regular basis and what they do .

The price tag is not Hendersons fault, but the price tag does make people sit up sometimes and take a look at the kind of player the same money or less would buy, and Henderson fares badly in those comparisons imho and I have not even thrown out a list of CMs that are younger than Henderson (but probably more expensive) like Yann M'Vila.

I hope that all the guys and gals that say they see a potential top class player in Henderson get proven right though and that he goes on to become a lynchpin in the centre for Liverpool, but with all the names I mentioned in this post I can see lots of very obvious qualities that the named players show week in week out, but with Henderson I see a long list of maybes that he might bring to his game on a regular basis.

Dickerty

Kess, you make a lot of sense, but we know Kenny had a semi for buying British, so that explains a part of it. And then we don't know if those other players would have signed for us. 12 months ago, we had NO European football to offer. We had sold Alonso, Masc and Torres in the previous 18 months. We were clearly coming out of a very difficult period.

If you were an up-and-coming player, would YOU have signed for us?

budgemook

Vicxas wrote: »

Football 365 are running a rumour that Juventus want Suarez...

What they are doing is reporting that The Daily Mail is reporting Juve are in for Suarez.

I assume everyone has a similar level of respect for The Daily Mail as I do.

Devilman40k

Delighted to announce that gylfi will sign for #thfc deal will be announced later today hopefully he looks forward to working with AVB

From his agents twitter account (fake account disregard)