Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 MOD POST #1130

Chucky the tree

Also if we do bring in Dempsey then Carroll becomes 3rd choice tbh. If we are in a game with 20 minutes to go and we need a goal and I have Dempsey and Carroll sitting on the bench then I am nearly always picking Dempsey to be a sub to bring on. He gives you far more variety and options and he's a better play then Carroll. I think turning down £15m+ for a third choice striker who'll only really feature in the cups is pretty dumb. I'd also prefer to see Morgan given a chance in the carling cup.

Mr Alan

Morgan isn't even nearly ready.

The fact he is being mentioned shows the level of fantasy this thread has reached.

If we sell Carroll, we'll regret it in time. I've no doubt about that.

Dickerty

Jaxen Purring Socket wrote: »

I don't see why he would miss the first few games, he is basically doing pre season at the Olympics and with the big games we have early on we cant afford to rest him.

Its not like when he played in the Copa America he had his break at the start of the summer this time.

He could be included up to the weekend of 11th August, so he'll miss the two Europa qualifiers on 2nd and 9th, and he's had no big holiday yet as Uruguay had WC Qualifiers in first two weeks of June, and were back maybe 2 weeks later for a warm-up match against Chile...

Dickerty

Mr Alan wrote: »

Morgan isn't even nearly ready.

The fact he is being mentioned shows the level of fantasy this thread has reached.

If we sell Carroll, we'll regret it in time. I've no doubt about that.

I don't think we'll ever know for sure. If he ends up banging them in for Newcastle again, it will be down to him being happier in his surroundings, playing to his strengths, not so much pressure on him. We can't manufacture that.

Mr Alan

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Add Carrolls name to the list and it's still not good enough.

Maybe not. But it's closer to what we need.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

Morgan isn't even nearly ready.

The fact he is being mentioned shows the level of fantasy this thread has reached.

If we sell Carroll, we'll regret it in time. I've no doubt about that.

Based on his overall form since joining Liverpool, it could just as easily be argued that we could regret keeping him at the expense of bringing in one or two more effective players.


Personally I think Carroll is at the wrong club and that he may indeed thrive back at Newcastle or at another club that builds a system around him. But just because he may do well should he leave Liverpool, that does not mean he would have done the same had he stayed.


Cannot say that I saw anyone touting Morgan as a solution. I saw Dickerty say that he thinks none of the youngsters are ready but certainly no great number of people saying Morgan should step in for Carroll. In fact the only mention of Morgan I can see is what Chucky said about giving him a chance in some of the league cup games, something I disagree with myself but was certainly no talk of replacing Carroll with Morgan.

Francie Barrett

Dickerty wrote: »

Playing 3 up front, we need 5 good options - Suarez, Dempsey, Borini, Bellamy. None of the youngsters are there yet. So I need something else there.

We easily have enough cover if we're playing 3 up top without Carroll.

Suarez, Dempsey/Walcott and Borini will start most often. Bellamy, Downing and Cole will rotate in. Pacheco and Sterling play the a few of the cup games and get drafted into rotation if we get a few injuries.

Mr Alan

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

Our lack of patience toward managers has now extended to young players too. Sweet. I look forward to us trying to flog Borini if he's doesn't hit the ground running.

Dickerty

Kess73 wrote: »

I saw Dickerty say that he thinks none of the youngsters are ready but certainly no great number of people saying Morgan should step in for Carroll. In fact the only mention of Morgan I can see is what Chucky said about giving him a chance in some of the league cup games, something I disagree with myself but was certainly no talk of replacing Carroll with Morgan.

Morgan hasn't even managed to crack the bench yet, no chance he can be considered the 5th striker. Maybe Sterling, Ibe, Sinclair or Eccleston (he still there?) could be part of a front 3, but not considering part of the Party Of Five...

Luckycharms_74

NukaCola wrote: »

Me fail english? Thats unpossible

Leiva

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

Our lack of patience toward managers has now extended to young players too. Sweet. I look forward to us trying to flog Borini if he's doesn't hit the ground running.

I see your point but I don't think it's that extreme nor do I think we have become so fickle.

But looking at the bigger picture I just don't see Andy Carroll in a Brendan Rodgers style/formation .

That's not to say that Carroll should be totally forgot about or Rodgers is not considering him for certain type games, but if we could get the desired £20mil for him then it would be very silly (IMO) to not take the offer and buy players than dove tail into Rodgers future plans.

Dickerty

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

18 months is not a BIT of time. I actually really like him too, but right now, he is a valuable asset, and the money he could raise could buy some other players either better suited or not requiring the same level of patience (and time)

Mr Alan wrote: »

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

The fact that you have to say "A game like City" referring to a good performance 15 months ago says a lot. Yes, he had some very good showings last season. But so did Henderson, and Shelvey, and Downing, and Spearing...over a long enough period of time, everyone has some good games. The number of games where he showed his true potential with goals attached, I could count on one hand.

So when do we give him all the time to develop? Should we give up results to develop him, in lieu of a more complete performer? How many goals would Maxi have scored if he had Carroll's minutes last season as well as his own? Did he step up massively when Luis was suspended?

Francie Barrett

Mr Alan wrote: »

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too.

It's not really though.

If we're playing the Rodgers system, then Carroll needs to start as the point in the front 3 every time. He cannot switch positions, he is not known for quick passing or having the ability to distribute the ball quickly. He clearly does not fit the system and it's a massive gamble for Rodgers to have him in the first eleven given who he struggled to score last season.

K-9

Mr Alan wrote: »

Maybe not. But it's closer to what we need.

Or some decent money added to our transfer pot. The money would have to be extra to Dempsey and Borini and I can't imagine why it wouldn't. I would expect £20 Million minimum to be spent this Summer with sales on top, otherwise we can just forget about even attempting a challenge for fourth.

I am pie

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

Our lack of patience toward managers has now extended to young players too. Sweet. I look forward to us trying to flog Borini if he's doesn't hit the ground running.

This completely ignores the fact that Roger's team will not play a game which suits Andy Carroll. I completely disagree that he put in any excellent performances, anywhere outside of Newcastle. Not Liverpool and not for England. He has ruffled a few feathers by throwing his weight around but i have not seen him dominate a match for a few years.

He is young, but that is completely irrelevant. He is not suitable for the football we want to play. 'Plan B' talk is also ignoring the fact the Rogers does not relent and hoof balls at the big man if his game plan isn't working. Nor should he.

Successful teams don't buckle and throw the kitchen sink at some ill construed naive 'Plan B' , they adapt personnel make more intelligent tactical changes. Carroll affords us none of that.

It was a mistake signing him. Simple. Kenny made a mistake and it it's one we need to reverse now, quickly, rather than hoping he settles in. What actually does 'settle in' mean in the context of a big guy like Carroll who key attribute is hi aerial threat and physical presence? What has he got to remember how to do?

Simply not skillful and intelligent enough to be a liverpool no.9. He'll be better off somewhere else, and we'll be better to see the back of him.

BorneTobyWilde

All this talk of style formation is crap
We're not Real Madrid or Barcelona
Andy Carroll would be a valuable asset this season,

When he first entered team we hoofed it up to him non stop,
But all that changed near end of last season, We played football with him in team,
And he was more than capable of adapting

If newcastle buy him cheap , i can see them selling him in year for 40 million :P

Sir Gallagher

Are people suggesting Suarez Borini and Dempsey would be enough heading into next season? Fck that. Borini is a complete unknown quantity and people have him pegged as our starting striker, very optimistic and fanciful imo.

Turtyturd

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

Our lack of patience toward managers has now extended to young players too. Sweet. I look forward to us trying to flog Borini if he's doesn't hit the ground running.

Can you list these?

noodler

I too have reservations about possibly sacrificing an effective player for stylistic purposes.

All depends on the price tag for me - wouldn't accept 15m - would taxi him myself for 25m.

amiable

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Are people suggesting Suarez Borini and Dempsey would be enough heading into next season? Fck that. Borini is a complete unknown quantity and people have him pegged as our starting striker, very optimistic and fanciful imo.

I don't think he is unknown to Rodgers and that is the most important part.
I agree with you though that those 3 aren't enough and I would imagine there will be more on the way if Carroll is sold.

I am pie

noodler wrote: »

I too have reservations about possibly sacrificing an effective player for stylistic purposes.

All depends on the price tag for me - wouldn't accept 15m - would taxi him myself for 25m.

What is effective about his goals per games ratio, or his goals per minutes on the pitch ratio ? We simply aren't going to play a brand of football to his strengths, so why would we keep him? What benefit ?

Sir Gallagher

I am pie wrote: »

This completely ignores the fact that Roger's team will not play a game which suits Andy Carroll. I completely disagree that he put in any excellent performances, anywhere outside of Newcastle. Not Liverpool and not for England. He has ruffled a few feathers by throwing his weight around but i have not seen him dominate a match for a few years.

He is young, but that is completely irrelevant. He is not suitable for the football we want to play. 'Plan B' talk is also ignoring the fact the Rogers does not relent and hoof balls at the big man if his game plan isn't working. Nor should he.

Successful teams don't buckle and throw the kitchen sink at some ill construed naive 'Plan B' , they adapt personnel make more intelligent tactical changes. Carroll fords us none of that.

It was a mistake signing him. Simple. Kenny made a mistake and it it's one we need to reverse now, quickly, rather than hoping he settles in. What actually does 'settle in' mean in the context of a big guy like Carroll who key attribute is hi aerial threat and physical presence? What has he got to remember how to do?

Simply not skillful and intelligent enough to be a liverpool no.9. He'll be better off somewhere else, and we'll be better to see the back of him.

Since when did plan B automatically mean hoofball, this the premiership not pub football.

Phoenix Park

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

All this talk of style formation is crap
We're not Real Madrid or Barcelona
Andy Carroll would be a valuable asset this season,

When he first entered team we hoofed it up to him non stop,
But all that changed near end of last season, We played football with him in team,
And he was more than capable of adapting

If newcastle buy him cheap , i can see them selling him in year for 40 million :P

to us?

noodler

I am pie wrote: »

What is effective about his goals per games ratio, or his goals per minutes on the pitch ratio ? We simply aren't going to play a brand of football to his strengths, so why would we keep him? What benefit ?

Easy chief.

I said possibly - my argument (hope, wonderings, whatever) is predicated on Carroll consistently building on the glimpses he has shown us over the last 6 months.

My reasoning would be that we are going to have occasion to play to his strengths at numerous times throughout the season (when a team is too stuborn to break down or against a team who does the Rodgers' style far better) and that a fee of 15m for someone his age would be a little weak if we find out we don;t have the players required to play Rodgers' football to an effectively high level (i.e. a serious challenge ofr fourth).

Leiva

£35 million
- £20 million

---

= £15 million

---

£15 million/ 18 months = £833,333.333 per month.

WOW just WOW .

Knex*

Leiva wrote: »

£35 million
- £20 million

---

= £15 million

---

£15 million/ 18 months = £833,333.333 per month.

WOW just WOW .

Now add wages. :mad:

NukaCola

Leiva wrote: »

£35 million
- £20 million

---

= £15 million

---

£15 million/ 18 months = £833,333.333 per month.

WOW just WOW .

He played for free did he?

Beaten to it lol

noodler

Leiva wrote: »

£35 million
- £20 million

---

= £15 million

---

£15 million/ 18 months = £833,333.333 per month.

WOW just WOW .

Knex. wrote: »

Now add wages. :mad:

But don't pass go and don't collect 200.

Dr Galen

How long was Carrolls contract for when he signed? 3 years?

wonderfullife

The £35m figure has to be forgotten about and cast into a black hole. If they can get £15m back now it's better than £8m next January/summer if he flops again on the limited appearances he will get this coming season. Whether it's Comolli or Kenny at fault, at this stage it's a case of "if the £15m coming in can be used more effectively on other players, is it better than holding out for more to save face?" - i think it is.

Look at Robbie when he went back to Spurs, massive loss on the deal, he did well at Spurs on his return yet Liverpool still did better that season. That result applied to Carroll/Newcastle i'm sure everyone would take. Newcastle, Everton and Spurs are likely the closest rivals to Liverpool this year in the table.

amiable

Dr Galen wrote: »

How long was Carrolls contract for when he signed? 3 years?

5 and a half years I do believe.
He has 4 years left.

Leiva

Knex. wrote: »

Now add wages. :mad:

We all make the valid point about the Man City's of this world and how they trump us all with the wages they can offer and how a transfer fees can be deceiving, but a loss @ £833k a month would have paid for a top top player.

Jeez Mr Comolli and Mr Henry what were you thinking

Really puts things into perspective and I'm stretching it even suggesting he goes for £20 mil .

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

Our lack of patience toward managers has now extended to young players too. Sweet. I look forward to us trying to flog Borini if he's doesn't hit the ground running.

What a load of rubbish. Some players, even really good players, don't settle or perform at one club for one reason or another but do well elsewhere. A player doing well at one club does not mean he would have done the same at an old club nor does it mean he would do the same at his next club.

How long exactly should Carroll be able to get away with shyte form more often than he shows good form on a consistant basis? Another 12 months? 24 months?

Yes he might come good at some point in the future, but based on his lack of consistent form over the course of an entire season there is a good chance that he may not come good at Liverpool and all he would have done is maybe take the spot of a player who might have done better than him.

Knex*

amiable wrote: »

5 and a half years I do believe.
He has 4 years left.

Yeah, I remember Kenny constantly bleeting on about how "We signed Andy fir five years, nay 6 months" and so on.

Dont be at yourself

Ourselves and Arsenal now linked with this chap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mirallas

I am pie

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Since when did plan B automatically mean hoofball, this the premiership not pub football.

Carroll = hoofball. Depressingly simple.

That's what we did last season when we used him in games where we couldn't break teams down, that's what England did when the used him in Euro 2012.

Why are people slapping lipstick on this particular pig? He has no intelligence in terms of making space for himself, making runs into space, is cumbersome with the ball at his feet and is simply unlike any good number 9 we've had. Carroll is Heskey for this decade.

Mr Alan

Kess, Carroll has performed well for the last few months. You're ignoring that & using his scoring stats to beat him with, while important, they are not the sole indicator of whether he's played well.

All this talk of Rodgers style etc, I can't ****ing wait for the season to start. People are gonna be scratching their heads when we don't turn into Barca overnight.

Washington Irving

wonderfullife wrote: »

Look at Robbie when he went back to Spurs, massive loss on the deal, he did well at Spurs on his return yet Liverpool still did better that season. That result applied to Carroll/Newcastle i'm sure everyone would take. Newcastle, Everton and Spurs are likely the closest rivals to Liverpool this year in the table.

We didn't make a massive loss on Keane. He was signed for £19 million and sold back to Spurs for £15m rising to £19m

klose

I assume rodgers has a presser soon in America and hopefully will shed some light on all this. Too many contrasting reports going about, he wants to go he dosent, he wouldnt mind a loan he dosent want to go atall, he wants to go home he wants to prove himself at lfc.
It's getting tedious enough now and am aware tis transfer window but this is still fairly annoying. The guy has been hounded from day 1 he came here by the ****ty media and feel for the guy, the amount of pressure he was under was insane for his age. I'd love to see him banging in the goals for us and shut the media up but if rodgers dosent fancy him well then that's that. Some clarification please

All aside can't wait to see the lads line out on Saturday, mon!

Turtyturd

whippedcream wrote: »

I assume rodgers has a presser soon in America and hopefully will shed some light on all this. Too many contrasting reports going about, he wants to go he dosent, he wouldnt mind a loan he dosent want to go atall, he wants to go home he wants to prove himself at lfc.
It's getting tedious enough now and am aware tis transfer window but this is still fairly annoying. The guy has been hounded from day 1 he came here by the ****ty media and feel for the guy, the amount of pressure he was under was insane for his age. I'd love to see him banging in the goals for us and shut the media up but if rodgers dosent fancy him well then that's that. Some clarification please

All aside can't wait to see the lads line out on Saturday, mon!

He had the chance to do that towards the end of last season.......and this happened.

noodler

Saul-Goode9 wrote: »

We didn't make a massive loss on Keane. He was signed for £19 million and sold back to Spurs for £15m rising to £19m

Thats a huge, huge loss over a 4/5 month period.

Nearly 1m a month?

Nuri Sahin

Sky Sports reporting that we are interested in Kevin Mirallas, who has a £6.4m release clause.

Tis Sky, so take it with a pinch of salt. But he's worth a punt at that price. Besides the game against BVB last season and against England before the Euros for Belgium, I've not seen much of him. Wasn't up to much in the latter but was very good against us coming in off the LW and RW at times. Can also play as a ST too AFAIK.

Knex*

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kess, Carroll has performed well for the last few months. You're ignoring that & using his scoring stats to beat him with, while important, they are not the sole indicator of whether he's played well.

All this talk of Rodgers style etc, I can't ****ing wait for the season to start. People are gonna be scratching their heads when we don't turn into Barca overnight.

Who on earth is expecting this?

Look, even last year we played a passing game, somewhat similar to how Rodgers will want to play only nowhere near as structured. Unfortunately, at times it seemed that Kenny sent the players out with no real instructions or tactics except for "pass it to the guy in red".

Its not ridiculous to expect us to continue the passing game, especially since its what Rodgers is all about, only this season to have a bit more structure and a bit less tactical naivety.

A competent passing team with a solid structure and system? Certainly. Barcelona, ala Messi, Xavi and Iniesta? Nobody here is that delusional.

Mr Alan

Turtyturd wrote: »

He had the chance to do that towards the end of last season.......and this happened.

Why cite that & not his phenomenal cameo against Chelsea in the FA Cup where he very nearly brought the game into extra time by himself?

grohlisagod

Just listening to Lucas' interview on Lfc.tv. Sounds like all of his best friends at the club have left. Cavalieri, Meireles, Maxi and Aurelio. A part of being a professional footballer I always tend to forget about it.

mayordenis

I'm just going to say what we're all thinking.

Everyone in this thread is a troll, every last one of you, and me. Everybodys Trollin'.

NukaCola

noodler wrote: »

Thats a huge, huge loss over a 4/5 month period.

Nearly 1m a month?

In that time Robbie scored 5 League goals. Andy has scored 6 league goals in a year and a half.

Overall Robbie scored 7 for us, Andys on 11.......its simply not good enough...

Dr Galen

If you want to be analytical about (and I'd suggest the club/FSG are) things in regards to Carroll, then right now his "book value" is about £24 million.

In that case, flogging him for anywhere between £15 - £20 million isn't the huge loss that people would think, from an accounting perspective at least. We've already written off a portion of his fee already.

None of that changes the fact that spending £35 million was nuts in the first place and we shouldn't have ever found ourselves in this position.

noodler

NukaCola wrote: »

In that time Robbie scored 5 League goals. Andy has scored 6 league goals in a year and a half.

Overall Robbie scored 7 for us, Andys on 11.......its simply not good enough...

Hey I am Keane's biggest defender during his time here (7 goals and 5 assists in 5 months).

I am just saying a loss of 4m in such a short space of time is still colossal.

Knex*

grohlisagod wrote: »

Just listening to Lucas' interview on Lfc.tv. Sounds like all of his best friends at the club have left. Cavalieri, Meireles, Maxi and Aurelio. A part of being a professional footballer I always tend to forget about it.

Think Kuyt was another person that got on really well with everyone also, including Lucas.

Reina is really gonna have to up his game in the dressing room (And on the pitch too for that matter)