Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 MOD POST #1130

Mr Alan

Dickerty wrote: »

If you saw 1 car heading in one direction, and 15 other cars heading the other, would you assume that the 15 were going the wrong way??

Yes, loaning Carroll unless the purchase clause was non-negotiable and absolute would be a bad idea.

I heard similar analogies when we were sacking Rafa & bringing in Roy & I was something of a figure of fun.

No loan deal has a non negotiable & absolute purchase clause, therefore effectively any loan deal would be stupid.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

I expect better from you Slick.

Kenny deserves leeway, I don't get anyone who wouldn't agree.

because of the reason i've stated in the post you quoted.

i don't worship the man.

so for you, his history with the club, where he last had meaningful success over 20 years ago...means he can spend all the money he wants, have the team playing aimlessly for the most part, be paid a monstrous wage while doing it, but must still be given much more time because he's Kenny Dalglish?

seems odd, and more like hero worship than anything.

i'd have accepted him staying on, but I fully get why he would be let go after last season.

Dickerty

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kenny deserves leeway, I don't get anyone who wouldn't agree.

Why does he? As I see it, the fact that he was successful 20 years ago means almost nothing anymore. He took over a winning team full of quality, and kept them winning. That's a lot easier.
The game has changed massively. If anything, he proved that point more than any manager in recent times. He didn't handle the media very well, he had a narrow view of buying players (English = Good), and he got too emotionally involved in certain things.

The fact that he followed Hodgson, he looked great. Had he followed Rafa, he would have looked far less impressive in that first few months.

mike65

****s sake the coals of Dalglish don't need raking over again, he's gone. Rodgers has a clear coherent vision of how the game should be played. If he deems Carroll not part of it then he'll sell him and he will others (I wonder if anyone will be screaming blue murder if Downing is moved on for 8 million?).

Dickerty

Mr Alan wrote: »

No loan deal has a non negotiable & absolute purchase clause, therefore effectively any loan deal would be stupid.

Ok then, we agree on that.

Mr Alan

SlickRic wrote: »

because of the reason i've stated in the post you quoted.

i don't worship the man.

so for you, his history with the club, where he last had meaningful success over 20 years ago...means he can spend all the money he wants, have the team playing aimlessly for the most part, be paid a monstrous wage while doing it, but must still be given much more time because he's Kenny Dalglish?

seems odd, and more like hero worship than anything.

i'd have accepted him staying on, but I fully get why he would be let go after last season.

We played good football most of last season.
We lost our most important player for the bulk of the season.
We won a trophy.
Got back into Europe.
Got to another final.
Ridiculously unfortunate throughout the season.
Most importantly, it was his first full season back at the club.

Not hero worship. Common sense.

Sir Gallagher

Liverpool's £10m signing Fabio Borini cuts short holiday to join up with new team-mates on tour of the US

Borini who signed from Roma and reached the final of Euro 2012 with Italy, was not due to report for duty until Aug 1 but he will now link up with Liverpool next week when Andy Carroll and the rest of the Anfield England internationals return.

Liverpool's new manager Brendan Rodgers arrived in Boston on Monday for the pre-season tour and is looking forward to Borini's arrival early next week.

"Fabio will come out next week with the England players, and that's a great demonstration of his commitment to Liverpool." Rodgers said.

"He was involved with Italy right the way through to the (Euro 2012) final and I'd given him the time off, like the others – four weeks.

"He was due to come back on August 1 but he made it very clear when he came that he wanted to get back and train with the group.
Related Articles


"We've agreed that he'll come out next week and we're looking forward to seeing him.

'"He is very determined and committed to doing well and I'm sure he'll play some part in some of the games once he's over here."

Rodgers added on Liverpool's website: "They are getting an opportunity. It's important for a young player, all you ask for is an opportunity.

"Even in pre-season games, they can plant a seed in the manager's mind and in supporters' minds of their qualities.

"It's a great opportunity for me to look at them close hand, and so far they've done very well and adapted very well to the training and the work.

"Alongside talent, the biggest thing for me in young players is personality. It's having the personality to play, and having that courage. Not all young players are ready to play for such a prestigious club as Liverpool. It takes time.

"For me, the age isn't a barrier. If they're good enough, if they have the personality and the talent, then I'm always willing to put them in."

Liverpool will open their tour against Toronto FC at the Toronto Blue Jays’ Rogers Centre and will meet Roma at Boston's Fenway Park.

The last game of the three match tour will pit the Reds against Tottenham Hotspur in Baltimore.

Seems as though the lad has a good attitude but cutting short your summer holidays to go and play football in America is hardly going back to your factory job a week early. Footballer's lifestyles eh...bastards.

Gbear

NukaCola wrote: »

Article from EPLIndex. Andy Carroll in Brendan Rodgers system.

I think that analysis raises some good points but it doesn't factor in the quality of play each player was playing in.

Did Graham have to deal with as many punts from Jamie Carragher? Did he lose the ball because nobody was onto the rather hopeful flick ons he had to make?

Just dismissing Carroll out of hand because he didn't play that system last season is insane. How do we know he can't do as good a job as Graham if he's never been tested in it?

There's this ignorant assumption going around that Carroll cannot play in Rodgers system because..


The lads on TAW raised it again and I've heard it a few times now, at Porto with Helder Postiga (I think) at Chelsea with Joe Cole, at Inter with Balotelli
and then with Benzema at Real, Mourinho has picked a player who's a little bit iffy in general for whatever reason - it generally seems to be mental issues.
He then gives them a bit of a hard time.
If it works, the player responds, like Benzema who was getting linked with a move away and then he lost a few stone last pre-season and was amazing for Real, and if it doesn't the manager gets to assert his authority, ship out a player because he doesn't work and get some more money for his transfer kitty.

It's turning a situation like Carroll into a relative win-win.
I really hope that's what Rodgers is doing and not just dismissing Carroll out of hand. I don't give a **** who he is - there is no rational justification for doing that at this point unless we get a really good deal from it.

Mr Alan

Gbear wrote: »

I don't give a **** who he is - there is no rational justification for doing that at this point unless we get a really good deal from it.

How anyone disagrees with this is a mystery to me.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

We played good football most of last season.

better football than Woy, yes, but it wasn't winning football. i think this "good football" gets overused. i used it before, but it doesn't totally wash.

We lost our most important player for the bulk of the season.

our season did not rely on Lucas. if it did, well Kenny not adapting to it, and/or preparing for it, is his fault.

We won a trophy.

yup, we did.

Got back into Europe.

the same point as winning the trophy really.

Got to another final.

yup, and i was delighted.

but the cup runs, as i've said before, masked the bigger issues. people used the excuse of "we were focusing on the cups once mid-March came." absolute bollocks, and if that's the case, then that's ridiculous and unacceptable.

Ridiculously unfortunate throughout the season.

and/or just not good enough. you can't just be unlucky for a whole season.

Most importantly, it was his first full season back at the club.

true, but he had 18 months in all, with 3 transfer windows, and it was very uninspiring for the most part.

Not hero worship. Common sense.

maybe not hero worship, but yours, and others' glass with Kenny is very much half full;; while it's very much half empty with Rodgers. if Kenny was doing the same things Rodgers is now, you'd probably laud him for being so strong willed and focused on his vision for the club.

i mean, Kenny got applauded in many quarters on here for his approach to the Suarez stuff because that's exactly what he showed - no nonsense and focus in what he believed to be right.

Sir Gallagher

Mr Alan wrote: »

How anyone disagrees with this is a mystery to me.

You seem to be mystified at the thought of anybody disagreeing with you :pac:

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

SlickRic wrote: »

no, he didn't.

the League form was absolutely atrocious, and more often than not we went out with very little in the way of a clear gameplan. very little impetus in so many games. this is backed up by the fact we barely ever scored early goals. it was only in the last few minutes of games that we looked dangerous.

and, quite clearly, the owners didn't believe Kenny could get us 4th, after he spent £100m on what we got last season.

it's very easy to forget all that money spent.

never mind the Suarez stuff.

it's not the most ridiculous of conclusions to sack Kenny, even though i'm still not convinced on Rodgers, and I won't be until we see how this season at the very least pans out.

it just seems to me, there are some posters waiting for Rodgers to fail so they can say "I told you so". i hope i'm wrong.

the amount of leeway Kenny gets from you Al is astounding. yes, he's a legend, and rightly always will be. but it seems to me you sometimes have this romanticised view of our tenure under him because he's who he is, and you wouldn't give that leeway to anyone else bar Rafa.

I expect better from you Slick.

Kenny deserves leeway, I don't get anyone who wouldn't agree.

Liverpool's future = more important than Kenny Dalglish. Kenny would be the first to agree

missingtime

And now for something completely different....

LIVERPOOL FC has applied for planning permission to put up a marquee behind Anfield to provide corporate hospitality for 500 people.

The marquee will be put on club-owned derelict land, once occupied by homes, in Anfield Road for two years.

It will address the club’s need to expand its corporate hospitality, while it continues to mull over whether to move to a new stadium or stay at Anfield.

The club insists it is getting close to making a decision. Planning permission still exists to build the stadium designed by Manchester architects AFL but obtaining a lucrative naming rights deal is crucial to subsidising the £300m project.

AFL are also behind the club’s planning application for the marquee.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/07/17/liverpool-fc-seeks-planning-permission-for-corporate-hospitality-marquee-behind-anfield-100252-31414335/

Turtyturd

missingtime wrote: »

And now for something completely different....



http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/07/17/liverpool-fc-seeks-planning-permission-for-corporate-hospitality-marquee-behind-anfield-100252-31414335/

If we sold Carroll we would only need 287/8 million.:pac:

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

How anyone disagrees with this is a mystery to me.

Really? And where are all the posts that are baffling to you that are saying sell Carroll no matter what? Nearly everyone on here has said no way to a loan, and only sell him if the fee is a good one.

Mr Alan

Kess73 wrote: »

Really? And where are all the posts that are baffling to you that are saying sell Carroll no matter what? Nearly everyone on here has said no way to a loan, and only sell him if the fee is a good one.

A "really good one" as GBear said.

10m-15m is not really good. He'll always fetch that on the market. Young, English, Good.

20m-25m is a very good price.

Loaning is retarded.

The general tone on here is to sell for anything above £10m.

RayCon

missingtime wrote: »

And now for something completely different....



http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/07/17/liverpool-fc-seeks-planning-permission-for-corporate-hospitality-marquee-behind-anfield-100252-31414335/

I can hear the "tent" jokes now ....

Sir Gallagher

missingtime wrote: »

And now for something completely different....



http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/07/17/liverpool-fc-seeks-planning-permission-for-corporate-hospitality-marquee-behind-anfield-100252-31414335/

I would have got a cheque for 50k in the H&G days for this.

Artist's representation:

NukaCola

Mr Alan wrote: »

A "really good one" as GBear said.

10m-15m is not really good. He'll always fetch that on the market. Young, English, Good.

20m-25m is a very good price.

Loaning is retarded.

The general tone on here is to sell for anything above £10m.

You seem to really fall apart when it comes to everything LFC......every post is seeping in panic. Its getting very tiresome.....

Mr Alan

Yea. Panicking :rolleyes:

Knex*

Mr Alan wrote: »

A "really good one" as GBear said.

10m-15m is not really good. He'll always fetch that on the market. Young, English, Good.

20m-25m is a very good price.

Loaning is retarded.

The general tone on here is to sell for anything above £10m.

Absolute bollocks. Find one quote suggesting anything of the sort. The consensus here is 17m+ or so and you know it.

Dickerty

Mr Alan wrote: »

A "really good one" as GBear said.

10m-15m is not really good. He'll always fetch that on the market. Young, English, Good.

20m-25m is a very good price.

Loaning is retarded.

The general tone on here is to sell for anything above £10m.

I haven't seen a SINGLE post that has suggested that just over £10M would be acceptable. The general tone is definately over £15M, I'd say the audience is averaging around £17/18M.

Why is 15M not really good, and 20M very good? Does that mean you agree with the group, in between 15M and 20M is acceptable?

Dickerty

Knex. wrote: »

Absolute bollocks. Find one quote suggesting anything of the sort. The consensus here is 17m+ or so and you know it.

Snap - we are in sync today...

No doubt.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

A "really good one" as GBear said.

10m-15m is not really good. He'll always fetch that on the market. Young, English, Good.

20m-25m is a very good price.

Loaning is retarded.

The general tone on here is to sell for anything above £10m.

If Carroll is a £25m forward then your surname must be Comolli.:p:pac:


You think that Carroll could fetch a fee as high as £25m? Just because Liverpool paid far too high a price for the player does not mean that another club would do so.

If Carroll was still at Newcastle and had a season like he just had for Liverpool, there would be outrage on here if we bought him for £25m.

If Carroll was not english and had the season he just did, I would expect him to cost under £10m.


Just say we sold Carroll for £17m and that money brought in one or two young players who improved the first team in a significant manner, whould you still be bemoaning the sale of Carroll based on what he might have done in a Liverpool shirt or would you be happy that his departure ended up bringing more to the team as a unit than Carroll did?

Mr Alan

Sweet as, I look forward to the first criticisms of Rodgers when we loan him out/let him go for less than £15m.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

Sweet as, I look forward to the first criticisms of Rodgers when we loan him out/let him go for less than £15m.

For a guy who is spending so much time talking about others criticising Carroll, you seem to be really looking forward to criticism of Rodgers and criticism of Borini.


Rodgers may not have been my first, second, or even third choice as Liverpool manager, but I sure as hell am hoping that in three or four seasons time we are all going "what a brilliant appointment"

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

Sweet as, I look forward to the first criticisms of Rodgers.

FYP.

Mr Alan

More meant that I'm looking forward to proof that the majority of people in this thread aren't the droolers & football manager experts I currently suspect they are.

NukaCola

Mr Alan wrote: »

Sweet as, I look forward to the first criticisms of Rodgers when we loan him out/let him go for less than £15m.

You'd love it Al.....and then you'll tell everyone how you backed Rafa and Kenny should have never left, and how you knew Hodgson was a disaster.....YAWN....tiresome......why cant you just say it would be a bad decision if we loan out the player without dragging up the past all the time! 4 pages of garbage in this forum because of you, and everyone agrees with your main point!

Mr Alan

Deleted User wrote: »

FYP.

Actually I've bought into the appointment & until this frankly ridiculous carry on with Carroll, he hadn't put a foot wrong. The biggest thing I've been impressed with is our style of football under him, been a joy to watch.

Knex*

Mr Alan wrote: »

Sweet as, I look forward to the first criticisms of Rodgers when we loan him out/let him go for less than £15m.

Why? Because you'll feel (wrongly) vindicated about your criticism of the whole thing now?

Nobody here is saying to do either of the options you just posted, naturally, if it does happen then there will be criticism from the fans. People here are saying 17m + as the figure deemed acceptable, and that also comes with the assumptions of Carroll being replaced by Dempsey and one or two others. Its the whole package.

Coming on here and calling it a disaster if Carroll is sold and then saying you look forward to him being sold for less than anyone wants, or loaned out, so as you can start quoting yourself when people complain about the deal and "prove" you were right is something I honestly don't get.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

More meant that I'm looking forward to proof that the majority of people in this thread aren't the droolers & football manager experts I currently suspect they are.

Must be terrible to be so bothered about the opinions of others that it becomes a case of hoping something goes wrong at the club so that you can be proven right.


I much prefer when any negative opinions I have on a player or manager get smashed to pieces as it means my team is doing well.

Mr Alan

Knex. wrote: »

Nobody here is saying to do either of the options you just posted, naturally, if it does happen then there will be criticism from the fans. People here are saying 17m + as the figure deemed acceptable, and that also comes with the assumptions of Carroll being replaced by Dempsey and one or two others. Its the whole package.

The way it's been handled selling on the cheap or loaning are the only real outcomes IMO. We shall see though.

Mr Alan

Kess73 wrote: »

Must be terrible to be so bothered about the opinions of others that it becomes a case of hoping something goes wrong at the club so that you can be proven right.


I much prefer when any negative opinions I have on a player or manager get smashed to pieces as it means my team is doing well.

LOL

Super-Rush

Mr Alan wrote: »

More meant that I'm looking forward to proof that the majority of people in this thread aren't the droolers & football manager experts I currently suspect they are.

If at first you don't succeed, insult people.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

LOL

I will always love you though. Mainly because you are as stubborn about your opinions as I am with mine.:)

K-9

Mr Alan wrote: »

More meant that I'm looking forward to proof that the majority of people in this thread aren't the droolers & football manager experts I currently suspect they are.

Now I know you are on the wind up.

Mr Alan

K-9 wrote: »

Now I know you are on the wind up.

I was actually serious, but ok

In fairness, anything less than £20m for Carroll is a disaster from a financial point of view.

He's cost us £41m so far including wages.

We need to at least get half our money back so I can get where Alan is coming from.

Imo anyway it doesn't make sense getting rid when he starts to show form especially when we have signed a guy from Italy that could take as long as Carroll to settle.

Carroll will score more than 9 goals this eason, I'd be sure of it.

Keep Carroll and get Dempsey, that's what I think.

whatawaster

rarnes1 wrote: »

In fairness, anything less than £20m for Carroll is a disaster from a financial point of view.

He's cost us £41m so far including wages.

We need to at least get half our money back so I can get where Alan is coming from.

Imo anyway it doesn't make sense getting rid when he starts to show form especially when we have signed a guy from Italy that could take as long as Carroll to settle.

Carroll will score more than 9 goals this eason, I'd be sure of it.

Keep Carroll and get Dempsey, that's what I think.

That money is gone. We need to make cold decisions now about our future

As much as I personally want to keep Carroll, if the manager doesnt want him then we have to get rid.

If that's the case we need to sell him for market value (i suspect around 14m) and buy a better player for less. that would be good business

daithijjj

Carroll will end up leaving on loan.......only if.....there is a guaranteed fee. No messing, guaranteed. The fee and loan fee together will be close to 20m before its deemed acceptable imho. Thats how i think it will play out.

The owners signed that cheque and fee on the last day before FFPR came into effect. If they had an ounce of 'sporting play' they should absorb that hit on the fee themselves and back Rodgers with 'that' out of the equation.

Chucky the tree

rarnes1 wrote: »

In fairness, anything less than £20m for Carroll is a disaster from a financial point of view.

He's cost us £41m so far including wages.

We need to at least get half our money back so I can get where Alan is coming from.

Imo anyway it doesn't make sense getting rid when he starts to show form especially when we have signed a guy from Italy that could take as long as Carroll to settle.

Carroll will score more than 9 goals this eason, I'd be sure of it.

Keep Carroll and get Dempsey, that's what I think.

I really don't get this logic at all. It doesn't matter what he cost. It's not Rodgers fault Comolli is a complete clown and massively overpaid for a donkey. The £35m is gone, at this stage it is irrelevant. What matters next is getting the best value you can from Carroll which is about £15-£20m. And that's being generous.

Mr Alan

daithijjj wrote: »

Carroll will end up leaving on loan.......only if.....there is a guaranteed fee. No messing, guaranteed. The fee and loan fee together will be close to 20m before its deemed acceptable imho. Thats how i think it will play out.

Can you cite me am example of any loan move that had a similar guaranteed purchase at the end? I don't believe they exist & I have no idea why a club taking a player on loan would sign up for 1. What happens if the player is ****e on loan? Or gets injured? Why would a club agree to it when we've already made it known he has no place in our managers plans?

whatawaster

whatawaster wrote: »

That money is gone. We need to make cold decisions now about our future

As much as I personally want to keep Carroll, if the manager doesnt want him then we have to get rid.

If that's the case we need to sell him for market value (i suspect around 14m) and buy a better player for less. that would be good business

Carroll is young, he'll only get better. Getting rid is showing no patience in a player that is likely to improve. He showed that after a tough 6 start to his Liverpool career.

Why not keep him and bring in another top forward too? The season is long with the Europa Cup and inevitable injuries/suspensions.

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I really don't get this logic at all. It doesn't matter what he cost. It's not Rodgers fault Comolli is a complete clown and massively overpaid for a donkey. The £35m is gone, at this stage it is irrelevant. What matters next is getting the best value you can from Carroll which is about £15-£20m. And that's being generous.

My point is that I think we can get more value in keeping Carroll than letting him go.

As for calling a current player a donkey? Bit sad tbh.

whatawaster

rarnes1 wrote: »

whatawaster wrote: »

That money is gone. We need to make cold decisions now about our future

As much as I personally want to keep Carroll, if the manager doesnt want him then we have to get rid.

If that's the case we need to sell him for market value (i suspect around 14m) and buy a better player for less. that would be good business

Carroll is young, he'll only get better. Getting rid is showing no patience in a player that is likely to improve. He showed that after a tough 6 start to his Liverpool career.

Why not keep him and bring in another top forward too? The season is long with the Europa Cup and inevitable injuries/suspensions.

The manager obviously wants to buy different players with the money and obviously doesn't rate Carroll.

we may not have the money to keep him, Borini and Suarez and bring in another top forward as you suggest

whatawaster

whatawaster wrote: »

The manager obviously wants to buy different players with the money and obviously doesn't rate Carroll.

we may not have the money to keep him, Borini and Suarez and bring in another top forward as you suggest

If the manager doesn't like Carroll, and he has to go, so be it, but personally I'd like to see him stay for another year at least.

Also, if he goes we don't need one striker,we need two.

If it's Dempsey for Carroll only, it's a mistake.

Chucky the tree

rarnes1 wrote: »

My point is that I think we can get more value in keeping Carroll than letting him go.

As for calling a current player a donkey? Bit sad tbh.

How? I honestly can't see him improving to a level where he is ever worth £25m. Not only that but how long will it take? As time goes by his contract becomes shorter and his price will decrease because of that. Not to mention we'll be paying £4m ever year to ride the bench. To me turning down £15m or so now an saving on £4m a year on wages in the hope he becomes a £25m play in a year or two max is a bit stupid.

lol - I take it you've never said anything ngative about Poulsen, Konchesky or Joe cole for example.

People in glass houses

rarnes1 wrote: »

Poulsen, WTF YOU ****

Yakult

Carroll is worth keeping. Yeah he was pretty woefull last season but so were a lot of the team. Not to mention he was injured for quiet a while when we signed him and didnt look fit at all. As the season progressed he looked much more of a threat. Just hope he gets a chance to impress BR.

daithijjj

Mr Alan wrote: »

Can you cite me am example of any loan move that had a similar guaranteed purchase at the end? I don't believe they exist & I have no idea why a club taking a player on loan would sign up for 1. What happens if the player is ****e on loan? Or gets injured? Why would a club agree to it when we've already made it known he has no place in our managers plans?

Not off hand no, im on me hols so cant be arsed to look either :pac: but im sure it has happened however which way it was dressed up. Of course there is always wriggle room with such things but the crux of the point stands. Basically a 20m stg amount is reached some way or gtfo.