Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 MOD POST #1130

CL7

ush wrote: »

Personally I think Barnes should be an ambassador for the club.

Heh, that's the first thing you've posted here that I agree with. Great call Imo.

whatawaster

Pro. F wrote: »

This is my understanding of what Liverpool are right now: a club with owners who want to get back into the top four; a club with owners willing to spend a decent chunk of money, but who might run out of patience if success doesn't come soon

I'm not sure that's exactly where Liverpool are right now with regard to the owners. Although sacking Dalglish and Comolli so soon may seem impatient, I do think they are all about trying to put a long-term structure in place with closer ties between the academy and the first team.

The transfer strategy of Dalglish and Comolli was disastrous and I can't blame the owners for getting rid.

Although getting back into the top 4 is obviously massive for the owners and their investment, I don't think they are willing to spend massively in the short term to achieve it.

I've said it already - given that we have decided to go down the Director of Football route - getting that appointment right will be the most important decision this summer. If we get the right person in and they sign the right kind of players, then it won't be an unfix-able disaster if Martinez (or whoever) fail next season. We can get in a new manager and we won't need a rebuilding job next summer because the DOF made good moves the previous year and there is a good squad for the new manager to work with.

On the other hand, if we get another Comolli it will be a disaster.

I'm fully behind the DOF model, but we have to get it right.

Sgt Pepper 64

Leiva wrote: »

It's only a matter of time now.

The captain has been rolled out now to say his piece .




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2150285/Steven-Gerrard-backs-Roberto-Martinez-Liverpool-job.html

Speaking of Roberto, would you lads be happy with the "other" roberto?
You know, the one who beat ye in the cup and won old big ears?

Could happen!

Leiva

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Speaking of Roberto, would you lads be happy with the "other" roberto?
You know, the one who beat ye in the cup and won old big ears?

Could happen!

Nah hope he gets the Chelsea job.

redzerdrog

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Speaking of Roberto, would you lads be happy with the "other" roberto?
You know, the one who beat ye in the cup and won old big ears?

Could happen!

no and i hope you lot keep him on and if you do I think you will struggle to get top four next year

unless you get in hazard and hulk :P

Sappy404

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Speaking of Roberto, would you lads be happy with the "other" roberto?
You know, the one who beat ye in the cup and won old big ears?

Could happen!

No. I don't think he'll get the Chelsea job either.

Sgt Pepper 64

redzerdrog wrote: »

no and i hope you lot keep him on and if you do I think you will struggle to get top four next year

unless you get in hazard and hulk :P

Well, I can certainly see us getting Hulk. He wants to come and its just agreeing a fee.
And Roman has agreed to build a separate gold changing room for Hazard and one for his ego, so watch this space!

Sgt Pepper 64

Ranieri might be a better fit for you

Sappy404

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Ranieri might be a better fit for you

He has a knack for getting big jobs alright.

He can f**k off though.

Sgt Pepper 64

Sappy404 wrote: »

He has a knack for getting big jobs alright.

He can f**k off though.

gee you are a hard man to please - who would you like to see then (realistically)?

Jesus Wept

Q. What do you call an Italian with a rubber toe?



A. RobbbbbbbbbbbbbbberTO.

El Inho

with the frame FSG are putting in place though, does that not make the manager almost obsolete?

Or does it simply remove the role of buying onto a director?

Gbear

Sappy404 wrote: »

He has a knack for getting big jobs alright.

He can f**k off though.

He has a knack for getting big jobs failing and then getting more big jobs.

He did fairly well at Roma and Chelsea but overall his record is poor.

Leiva

El Spearo wrote: »

with the frame FSG are putting in place though, does that not make the manager almost obsolete?

Or does it simply remove the role of buying onto a director?

If the rumored structure being put in place is true the yes the managers role is somewhat diluted.

But I don't know what to believe but I still think the owners are winging it somewhat, and putting lots of spin on things .

Remember how we were spun a lot of what now was obviously crap when Camolli & Kenny and the owners had a holy trinity with a clear philosophy that would guarantee success .

Me thinks there is some of that going on again.

Only time will tell.

Pro. F

El Spearo wrote: »

with the frame FSG are putting in place though, does that not make the manager almost obsolete?

Or does it simply remove the role of buying onto a director?

Well at the very least he'd still be responsible for motivating and disciplining the players, picking and organising the team and tactics from game to game. So presumably the suits would be in charge of scouting and buying players and selecting a new manager whenever that was required.

They do that in a lot of Italian clubs. I remember hearing that at Juve the manager just tells the DOF what position he wants and then he goes and gets the best he can. The continuity in the scouting staff means some Italian clubs have been the best in the world at recruiting young talent.

rossie1977

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Ranieri might be a better fit for you

The Chessplayer

Kess73 wrote: »

From Calvin Klein with ranges for men, women, and you.

Ho ho ho, on fire today Kess!

Leiva wrote: »

It's only a matter of time now.

The captain has been rolled out now to say his piece .




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2150285/Steven-Gerrard-backs-Roberto-Martinez-Liverpool-job.html

Did the same with Roy for England.

ush wrote: »

Gerrard hasn't been rolled out to answer a question or support Martinez. He's respectfully answering a question about a managerial candidate. What else is he supposed to do in that situation?

He could've said "no comment". Need a big year from Stevie G next season. Didn't give enough this year.

Sappy404 wrote: »

He has a knack for getting big jobs alright.

He can f**k off though.

I wouldn't like to see Ranieri's style of football at Liverpool. He'd probably be a safe pair of hands but I'd love to see us get a manager with a more attacking ethos. In my opinion, Martinez and AVB are too young.

djPSB

Kess73 wrote: »

Martinez on the other hand has three seasons of skin of the teeth survival with Wigan, and a win % of around 26% whereas Mourinho had one of around 50% with a tiny club in the top division in Portugal. Also a lot gets made of the time Martinez spent at Swansea, but many leave out that half his time there was spent in what is the third divison in England and only one year was spent in the Championship. 34 games is all that Wigan have won over three seasons in all comps under Martinez. Now that does not mean that the man could not up his game to a massive degree with financial backing, but his seven wins from nine towards the end of this season seems to be what is making his name much as Hodgson's run to the Europa cup final seemed to make his name with the then Liverpool owners.

It would be interesting to know what Klopp's win percentage was at Mainz 05.

Some excellent points there though.

Kess73

djPSB wrote: »

It would be interesting to know what Klopp's win percentage was at Mainz 05.

Some excellent points there though.

40.7% is what is listed on his wiki page

When he then got his hands on a bigger club with more resources he jumped to the 57% mark

djPSB

Kess73 wrote: »

40.7% is what is listed on his wiki page

When he then got his hands on a bigger club with more resources he jumped to the 57% mark

And some of them games were played in the second division of the Bundesliga.

I'd imagine if Martinez had Wigan in the Championship for a season or two, he could increase his win % significantly.

K-9

djPSB wrote: »

And some of them games were played in the second division of the Bundesliga.

I'd imagine if Martinez had Wigan in the Championship for a season or two, he could increase his win % significantly.

Bit like Brian Kerr having a good win %, problem was it was usually in friendlies!

daithijjj

Suso V Italy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zziG86Xus_g&feature=youtu.be

Kess73

djPSB wrote: »

And some of them games were played in the second division of the Bundesliga.

I'd imagine if Martinez had Wigan in the Championship for a season or two, he could increase his win % significantly.

Valid point. Martinez did manage in the Championship and he did manage in what was the old third division and he had a good win % during that time.

But unlike some of the examples used in this thread, Martinez was unable to achieve even a modest win % when he managed in the top division whereas some of the other guys that were listed as examples of "risks" were able to achieve good to high win % with small clubs (small in financial terms)

Martinez may indeed be a very good manager at some point in his career, but right now I feel that he would be too big a risk.

djPSB

K-9 wrote: »

Bit like Brian Kerr having a good win %, problem was it was usually in friendlies!

I reckon Martinez has achieved more than Klopp had before he got the Dortmund job.

Whether Martinez would be as successful is a different story though.

djPSB

Kess73 wrote: »

Valid point. Martinez did manage in the Championship and he did manage in what was the old third division and he had a good win % during that time.

But unlike some of the examples used in this thread, Martinez was unable to achieve even a modest win % when he managed in the top division whereas some of the other guys that were listed as examples of "risks" were able to achieve good to high win % with small clubs (small in financial terms)

Martinez may indeed be a very good manager at some point in his career, but right now I feel that he would be too big a risk.

Wenger in his three seasons with Nancy had a win percentage of 29.95%.

He went on to win the league with Monaco the year after.

I agree that Martinez would be a big risk, but there are examples out there of when has worked for clubs in the past.

Kess73

djPSB wrote: »

I reckon Martinez has achieved more than Klopp had before he got the Dortmund job.

Whether Martinez would be as successful is a different story though.

Klopp took Mainz to the Bundesliga for the first time in their history and into the UEFA cup. Granted he only managed to keep them there for three seasons, but he did show that he could work his way up to the top division with the same team and consolidate to a degree once there.

Martinez has only one such achievement to his name and that is taking Swansea from the old third division up to the Championship.


Comparing Wigan and Mainz in terms of wealth sees Wigan win quite easily, and Wigan also have a bigger stadium than the stadium that Mainz used to play in during Klopp's reign. So Klopp did what he did with a smaller club and with even less finances than what Martinez has had available to him.

I wonder if Wigan's form this season was reversed and they had that 7 wins from 9 games run at the start of the season and their 8 league losses in a row at the end of the season would Martinez even be considered for the job or would he be seen as a guy who just scraped staying up.

Kess73

djPSB wrote: »

Wenger in his three seasons with Nancy had a win percentage of 29.95%.

He went on to win the league with Monaco the year after.

I agree that Martinez would be a big risk, but there are examples out there of when has worked for clubs in the past.

I don't disagree that a risk could pay off, but unlike some of the names that get used to defend Martinez, the record Martinez has did not improve as he moved up divisions.

djPSB

Kess73 wrote: »

Klopp took Mainz to the Bundesliga for the first time in their history and into the UEFA cup. Granted he only managed to keep them there for three seasons, but he did show that he could work his way up to the top division with the same team and consolidate to a degree once there.

Martinez has only one such achievement to his name and that is taking Swansea from the old third division up to the Championship.


Comparing Wigan and Mainz in terms of wealth sees Wigan win quite easily, and Wigan also have a bigger stadium than the stadium that Mainz used to play in during Klopp's reign. So Klopp did what he did with a smaller club and with even less finances than what Martinez has had available to him.

I wonder if Wigan's form this season was reversed and they had that 7 wins from 9 games run at the start of the season and their 8 league losses in a row at the end of the season would Martinez even be considered for the job or would he be seen as a guy who just scraped staying up.

He took them to the UEFA Cup through the Fair Play rules due to their good discipline not because of their league position.

His record in the Bundesliga is:
2004/2005: 43 points
2005/2006: 38 points
2006/2007: 34 points relegated
2007/2008: Failed to get promoted from the second division

Granted there are only 18 teams in the Bundesliga which doesn't make the points tallys directly compareable, but there is nothing there to suggest he had achieved more than Martinez has at this stage of his career.

Gbear

daithijjj wrote: »

Suso V Italy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zziG86Xus_g&feature=youtu.be

Very impressive.

He looks very very composed on the ball. Constantly getting caught in possession but then having the skill to get out of trouble and still give good passes after. He's not just hoofing it back to the keeper.

Absolutely brilliant bit of play by him at about 3.15.

Kess73

djPSB wrote: »

He took them to the UEFA Cup through the Fair Play rules due to their good discipline not because of their league position.

His record in the Bundesliga is:
2004/2005: 43 points
2005/2006: 38 points
2006/2007: 34 points relegated
2007/2008: Failed to get promoted from the second division

Granted there are only 18 teams in the Bundesliga which doesn't make the points tallys directly compareable, but there is nothing there to suggest he had achieved more than Martinez has at this stage of his career.

Well for one he managed to get promoted from a second division to the main division, Martinez failed to manage that.

As for comparing them in terms of points, well the only way to do that would be to use the points per game avaerage of both, which right now I am too lazy to look up for Martinez.

But so far in this thread it is the likes of Wenger, Klopp, Mourinho etc that are being used as examples of what could be in terms of people arguing a point for Martinez. All those guys are exceptional managers who started off small. But if people want to make lists, why don't we look at the much longer list of managers who managed smaller clubs and who then flopped when they ended up at bigger clubs.

For ever Klopp that makes it at a big club, there must be a dozen that flop.

For me, and it is just my opinion, the smarter option would be to try and maximise the chance of success by setting out to appoint the man with the best trach record. If we cannot get that guy, then we should go for the guy with the second best track record and so on until we get our man.

Martinez has come back to Evens on betfair. Easy money?

Rodgers has come in quite a bit actually and now is 3/1.

Such a volatile market.

Rafa has drifted to 30/1

mike65

Kess73 wrote: »

Well for one he managed to get promoted from a second division to the main division, Martinez failed to manage that.

Martinez never got the chance, as he was head hunted by Whelan for the Wigan job.

daithijjj

Gbear wrote: »

Very impressive.

He looks very very composed on the ball. Constantly getting caught in possession but then having the skill to get out of trouble and still give good passes after. He's not just hoofing it back to the keeper.

Absolutely brilliant bit of play by him at about 3.15.

Think he only has a year left, would want to be signed up soon.

Kess73

mike65 wrote: »

Martinez never got the chance, as he was head hunted by Whelan for the Wigan job.

He did manage Swansea in the championship the season after he led them to promotion from the old third division.


My own view of preferring to get a manager with a proven track record of winning things over a period of time over a manager who is totally unproven is the one I am sticking with.

Whatever John Henry & co finally decide on will be what we all have to put up with for better or for worse, but between now and then trying to get the best possible available candidate makes the most sense for me.


Not too long ago we had quite a few people on here on about how the likes of Coyle deserved a shot at the Liverpool job (interesting that those posters are not calling out for him now), now we seem to have people trying to talk up Martinez as a manager by comparing him to successful managers who started off in lesser roles whilst ignoring the fact that most managers who start off in lesser roles don't go on to big things.

Right now Martinez has nothing to his name bar the fact he has managed in England for a number of years and that he had a great run his team had towards the end of this season that was only matched in scale by the terrible team had at the start of the season.


As I said earlier, if Wigan finished the season on the same amount of points as they did, but had that good run at the start of the season and the awful run in the second half of the season, how many would be even suggesting Martinez?

doc_17

Martinez is my opinion is an unambitous choice for manager. I really wish we had gone for someone else.

El Inho

doc_17 wrote: »

Martinez is my opinion is an unambitous choice for manager. I really wish we had gone for someone else.

unambitious or realistic...

discuss...

djPSB

El Spearo wrote: »

unambitious or realistic...

discuss...

or over-ambitious..

Turtyturd

http://whelansays.co.uk

murpho999

Kess73 wrote: »

That the second or third time that example has been trotted out by Liverpool supporters on here. Bill Shankly was a second division manager when he took over at Liverpool. Liverpool FC were a second division club in a poor state on and off the pitch when he took over, so Shank's experience as a manager was at the same level that Liverpool FC was at, and had been at for some time...............................

Kess, I agree with most of what you say here but just want to point out that I'm not advocating Martinez as manager far from it but I was just trying to make the point that nobody knows how managers can perform at different levels when given the opportunity.

I remember the headlines 'Arsene Who?' when Wenger was appointed regardless of his success at Monaco.

Shankly, regardless of what condition the club was in had not given any sign of being the great manager he went on to be.

Basically, every managerial appointment is different and is a gamble and there is a chance that Martinez could shine at LFC as he would have different resources than what he is used to!

Truth is nobody knows, and there is no guarantee that a manager with a successful record at other clubs will be so at Anfield.

El Inho

murpho999 wrote: »

Kess, I agree with most of what you say here but just want to point out that I'm not advocating Martinez as manager far from it but I was just trying to make the point that nobody knows how managers can perform at different levels when given the opportunity.

I remember the headlines 'Arsene Who?' when Wenger was appointed regardless of his success at Monaco.

Shankly, regardless of what condition the club was in had not given any sign of being the great manager he went on to be.

Basically, every managerial appointment is different and is a gamble and there is a chance that Martinez could shine at LFC as he would have different resources than what he is used to!

Truth is nobody knows, and there is no guarantee that a manager with a successful record at other clubs will be so at Anfield.

on some level Chelsea are a prime example of good managers not living up to the hype...or delivering...

while di matteo is an example of the underdog delivering twice.

I don't know what to expect, but ill support any choice for the simple reason we need to get behind the team

seanwhite20

El Spearo wrote: »

on some level Chelsea are a prime example of good managers not living up to the hype...or delivering...

while di matteo is an example of the underdog delivering twice.

I don't know what to expect, but ill support any choice for the simple reason we need to get behind the team

I think di matteo benefited from having no expectation on him in much the same way as kenny did when he came back first. I dont think he will live up to the expectation next season if he gets the Chelsea job.

Phoenix Park

Dunno if ayone has mentioned this but in the last few hours Brendan Rodgers price on the exchanges has collapsed and he is now less than 2/1, carries a bit more weight than the bookmakers and still not a dead cert or anything, but i'm getting worried now. Rodgers. Christ.

Usually these markets are very dodgy, but its a concern how short he now is :eek:

djPSB

Phoenix Park wrote: »

Dunno if ayone has mentioned this but in the last few hours Brendan Rodgers price on the exchanges has collapsed and he is now less than 2/1, carries a bit more weight than the bookmakers and still not a dead cert or anything, but i'm getting worried now. Rodgers. Christ.

Usually these markets are very dodgy, but its a concern how short he now is :eek:

Who do you want as manager? Rafa?

djPSB

Carroll starting for England.

Hope he goes well.

Phoenix Park

Phoenix Park wrote: »

Dunno if ayone has mentioned this but in the last few hours Brendan Rodgers price on the exchanges has collapsed and he is now less than 2/1, carries a bit more weight than the bookmakers and still not a dead cert or anything, but i'm getting worried now. Rodgers. Christ.

Usually these markets are very dodgy, but its a concern how short he now is :eek:

I mentioned it a while ago.

Rodgers now favourite with some bookies and not far off Martinez in the exchanges.

Martinez drifting big time...

I wouldn't be suprised if Dave Whelan was laying off Martinez in the exchanges yesterday when he was mouthing off saying he was offered the job!

Phoenix Park

djPSB wrote: »

Who do you want as manager? Rafa?

The original ones i put up were 1. Capello (realistic?), 2. Villas-Boas, and 3. Rafa.

I'm still hoping AVB is in with a shout as i can't see Capello being interested or Rafa getting a look in at this stage.

G.K.

Henriksen is playing for Norway tonight, he's a lad Kess rates.

G.K.

G.K. wrote: »

Henriksen is playing for Norway tonight, he's a lad Kess rates.

We don't really want to know about Kess's love life tbh !

Phoenix Park

Phoenix Park wrote: »

The original ones i put up were 1. Capello (realistic?), 2. Villas-Boas, and 3. Rafa.

I'm still hoping AVB is in with a shout as i can't see Capello being interested or Rafa getting a look in at this stage.

Currently 57/1,10/1 and 27/1 in order you have them there.