I can't believe there are still Northern Irish people like this.

awec

kermit_the_dog wrote: »

so you think sectarianism was visited upon each community in equal measure by the other ?

Yes. Both sides committed terrible acts. Neither side can really hold their head high. Nobody can claim any sort of highground.

Unless of course you really want to start this "well, this one time back in 1973..." stuff, in which case knock yourself out, I won't bother with that crap.

Crooked Jack

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Not those who were there that night, the NI fans were bitter of our success and when we qualified for the world cup on their backs they went ape. That scumbag Billy Bingham was also doing his best to wind them up from the sideline.

I'd say there were quite a few people from the north there supporting Ireland.
Ive no doubt it was terrifying, I was only 7 when it happened but I remember seeing it on the news.
Im just concerned that it gave you a north/south mentality, after all, that team doesnt really represent the north, it represents a certain section of the north.

DEFTLEFTHAND

eamo12 wrote: »

See absolutely nothing wrong with that. You seem to be a nationalist shinner type so of course your offended if you hear Londonderry. Thats what some people call it. Deal with it.

I'm not nationalist in the least, I'm perfectly happy with our 26 counties and for Northern Ireland to be its own state. I even look out for the NI teams results and always hope they do well. Its just that we weren't used to that kind of atmosphere and we found it very intimidating at the time.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I'd say there were quite a few people from the north there supporting Ireland.
Ive no doubt it was terrifying, I was only 7 when it happened but I remember seeing it on the news.
Im just concerned that it gave you a north/south mentality, after all, that team doesnt really represent the north, it represents a certain section of the north.

Thats right its only a certain section of the north but I suppose as a child I wasn't really aware that the divide ran so deep between the two communities.

kermit_the_dog

awec wrote: »

Yes. Both sides committed terrible acts. Neither side can really hold their head high. Nobody can claim any sort of highground.

Unless of course you really want to start this "well, this one time back in 1973..." stuff, in which case knock yourself out, I won't bother with that crap.

im not refering to violence , im talking about sectarianism in other forms from employment exclusivity to political priveledge to social stigma

rgmmg

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

We all remember the horrible night 93 in that concrete kip Windsor Park I presume. Terrifying experience for anyone with a southern accent. When Alan McLoughlin stuffed them with that equaliser it looked like a riot could break out. I was a young child at the time and that night forever engrained in me the divide between North and South, Loyalist and Republican etc.

I was at the first meeting between the Rep and Northern Ireland in the group at Lansdowne Road. Shortly after the Rep of Ireland went 3-0 up in the first half, a rendition of "One team in Ireland...there's only one team in Ireland" went up. That would annoy me if I was a Northern Ireland fan/manager/player so am sure that added to the anger at Windsor that night!

IrishAm

rgmmg wrote: »

I was at the first meeting between the Rep and Northern Ireland in the group at Lansdowne Road. Shortly after the Rep of Ireland went 3-0 up in the first half, a rendition of "One team in Ireland...there's only one team in Ireland" went up. That would annoy me if I was a Northern Ireland fan/manager/player so am sure that added to the anger at Windsor that night!

Watched that in class when I was in primary. Staunton scored from a corner!

Slagging the away fans is part and parcel of being a football fan and is meant in good humour. We get called junkies when we play away in Dublin and get abuse for being Dubs when we play outside of it.

If you get angry over it, you should probably invest in some anger management classes.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

true wrote: »

Our little country down here has only the population of a small to mid size city.....

Sorry to be pedantic now, but what small to mid-size city has a population of 4.5 million?

kermit_the_dog

deccurley wrote: »

Sorry to be pedantic now, but what small to mid-size city has a population of 4.5 million?

one in china :pac:

Richard

rgmmg wrote: »

I was at the first meeting between the Rep and Northern Ireland in the group at Lansdowne Road. Shortly after the Rep of Ireland went 3-0 up in the first half, a rendition of "One team in Ireland...there's only one team in Ireland" went up. That would annoy me if I was a Northern Ireland fan/manager/player so am sure that added to the anger at Windsor that night!

To be fair, I've hear Northern Ireland fans singing that too, in fact I suspect NI started that chant (I've heard them singing when NI play other teams) and the Republic fans were giving them a dose of their own medicine.

I think that's light-hearted slagging, tbh.

Of course, there's only one team that was every officially called Ireland, and its headquarters are in Belfast. :-)

fasttalkerchat

Did you think they all got deported as part of the Good Friday Agreement??

Of course those sort of people are still around!

fasttalkerchat

Richard wrote: »

Of course, there's only one team that was every officially called Ireland, and its headquarters are in Belfast. :-)

That's true too. Unfortunately they are now named Northern Ireland and do not represent all of Ireland.
I support the republic because I believe they come closest to representing Ireland as a whole. Although unfortunately only are a 32 county team when it suits them!

Ms.M

kermit_the_dog wrote: »

their is nothing to suggest bigotry in the republic of ireland is anything like it is in glasgow or parts of northern ireland , its stupid to suggest otherwise , when has the religon of a sports person , politican or businessman become an issue in the irish republic in the past several decades , constrast that with neil lennon or even rory mc elroy and the difference is stark

Oi! No need to be patronising!

I said that sectarianism is out of fashion in the Republic. All forms of bigotry are fundamentally the same thing; it is part of human beings' psychology that we have prejudices, when these are unchecked or unchallenged (or when people are plain old thick) they're sometimes taken for truth.

Many Irish people are very capable of replacing knowledge with prejudice to support their arguments. And we also have our punching bags. If any of our minorities constituted a similar percentage of the population as Nationalists do in the North or Catholics in Glasgow we'd be just as f%*ed.

I don't think bigots should ever be allowed represent an entire community. Nationalists and Unionists differ but bigots are the same everywhere. Don't give them so much credit! We have the Good Friday Agreement, we can ignore them now. So let's!

Chuck Stone

nornironnornironnornironnornironnornironnornironnornironnornironnornironnorniron

I'm ½norniron

Sound of Silence

awec wrote: »

Rory McIlroy?

What are you on about?

You're making it up as you go along.

With all that bitterness you need to make sure you don't ruin your dinner!

I'm not sure if he's being bitter. I think he's just identifying an unfortunate aspect of Northern Irish society.

You do realise that for some people in Northern Ireland, Sports Stars can't be shared between the communities.

Many Northern Irish Sportsmen have had to at some point negotiate the perillous subject of idendity.Some people have been able to straddle it well and appeal to both sides of the Community. Others haven't been quite so subtle.

Whilst we may have on the whole emerged as a more peaceful nation since the GFA, the existence of petty sectarian divides will remain an issue for many years to come.

kermit_the_dog

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I'm not sure if he's being bitter. I think he's just identifying an unfortunate aspect of Northern Irish society.

You do realise that for some people in Northern Ireland, Sports Stars can't be shared between the communities.

Many Northern Irish Sportsmen have had to at some point negotiate the perillous subject of idendity.Some people have been able to straddle it well and appeal to both sides of the Community. Others haven't been quite so subtle.

Whilst we may have on the whole emerged as a more peaceful nation since the GFA, the existence of petty sectarian divides will remain an issue for many years to come.

prescisely

some have deal with it skillfully like martin o neil and rory mcilroy , others less so like nigel worthington or billy bingham

Varied

We aren't all bad, well, not all the time hai.

mikemac1

Eddie Irvine got a podium place in Argentina and the tricolour was raised

His parents in Down got death threats from the UVF

And so the Union Flag was used from then on

briany

Of course OWC is of a unionist bent but see how far you'd get if you were an open unionist posting on YBIG and then decided from the responses you got that that's how all people from the Republic of Ireland were. I don't think that would be a fair assessment based on such a small and skewed sample.


Let's not fuel the fires of sectarian bigotry mocking the bigots which invariably, unfortunately, leads to the mockers making bigoted statements of their own and looking just as bad to outside eyes.

yore

I can't believe it's not butter

mikemac1

Crazy nordies

How can you trust people who have Harp Lager as their favourite?

cesc77

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You sound like the worst kind of patronising arsehole. Yer man was only asking a question and a fairly legitimate one given that people from the north can opt to play for either Ireland or Britain.
Also "geography lesson much." I feel compelled to inform you that you are not Ace Ventura.

I dont mean to be patronising,Jackie boy but believe me I could if I wanted to.

You dived into a conversation there without reading the full thread

I dont give a damn what countries people decide to play for.What i do give a damn about is fcking bigots.

I am not one (agnostic) but calm the feck down and stop watching 12s movies.

If you would like a chat about each of the bloody sentences I wrote I will gladly speak slowly to you.......

Now read back through the thread and give me a coherent response argument.

fasttalkerchat

cesc77 wrote: »

I dont mean to be patronising,Jackie boy but believe me I could if I wanted to.

You dived into a conversation there without reading the full thread

I dont give a damn what countries people decide to play for.What i do give a damn about is fcking bigots.

I am not one (agnostic) but calm the feck down and stop watching 12s movies.

If you would like a chat about each of the bloody sentences I wrote I will gladly speak slowly to you.......

Now read back through the thread and give me a coherent response argument.

To be fair the poster is right. There is no "Northern Ireland" Olympic team. Athletes born in the 06 choose to represent Ireland or Britain.

true

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

. Athletes born in the 06 choose to represent Ireland or Britain the republic of Ireland or the UK of great Britain and N. Ireland.

fixed that for you. Thats what the passports say.

fasttalkerchat

true wrote: »

fixed that for you. Thats what the passports say.

Team GB or Ireland.

true

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Team GB or Ireland.

so you do not recognise a passport which says its " UK of great Britain and N. Ireland."?

My "Pas" ( passport !) is issued by the Republic of Ireland.

aquascrotum

Right well to be slightly controversial...as one who used to be a regular on OWC (havent read it much the last year or 2) and have followed Norn Iron through thick and much thin over the last 10-15 years.

OWC itself - believe it or not was set up by some of the more "progressive" NI fans and is as much a cold house for the really hard old-school loyalist support as it is to trolls who want to rile. It was OWC who set up initiatives such as Sea of Green (which sickened old-school support whose thought process was something along the lines of "green is for taigs"), and continues to provide a forum for debate on anthems, emblems, and progressing the Football for All program.

The Football for All policy is a big part of the reason why NI football is a far, far different animal to the Windsor Park atmosphere in 93.

I would be genuinely surprised if anyone on OWC condoned the extreme vitriol (threats of violence etc) that came to James McClean from some quarters - but noone should be surprised if supporters arent overly impressed if a promising young player who has turned out at various school and underage levels turns round and says he never wanted to play for them. I'm all for choice, if a player doesnt want to play for NI then don't play - but don't take a squad place through the youth system that then denies a player who does want to play for NI.

OWC other sports (even GAA)...an attempt at irony at worst. I cant access now as its become a paid part of the site, but there used to be some quite in-depth GAA discussion.

OWC threads where pubs etc are outed as being anti-NI - absolutely. The crux of OWC is that there are a huge majority of followers of NI who are of a moderate disposition (but pro NI mindset by definition) who are busting balls to change opinions, yet are continuing to be tarred as a group by a society at large who think of NI and its whole support as being the uber loyalist, widespread vocal sectarianism crowd that was in the Windsor that night in 93, and for many years before that, and for a few years after. So yes it does offend me that pubs in mixed areas continue to discriminate against me if I wear an NI top, yet in some cases would allow an RoI top or GAA jersey.

I'm a moderate, but of a unionist mindset and background - but I've more Catholic friends than Protestant, I'm engaged to a Catholic from Dublin, but I like that NI is my wee country, and I want to be able to be proud to follow my team and wear my shirt in a mixed pub in NI without being seen as a bigot. I've even worn an NI scarf around Dublin - not to rub people up the wrong way, but because it was quite cold. I'll happily chat football with RoI supporting NI and RoI workmates and can happily have the piss taken out of me about us currently being dire, and I'll gladly return the favour when yous get chinned in the Euros. That is progress - but I know that because of the NI "situation" any part of my conversation could be construed by someone who is looking to be offended as being bigoted /sectarian etc etc, when in fact its a bit of football rivalry and banter between friends.

On Neil Lennon - that night (which was incidentally my first NI match) was in my opinion a watershed moment for the NI support. Any halfwit with a 20p and access to a phonebox can make a deaththreat via the Belfast Telegraph, yet the whole NI support was again tarred as bigots. That night was (I believe) the lowest home attendance at an NI match in memory, and it was after that that support galvanised through OWC and attracted a new and different crowd shortly afterwards with a different atmosphere, to replace the old crowd who were put off because singing Billy Boys was no longer socially acceptable. The news reports of that night very rarely mention the 10 mins before and after the game when the whole ground stayed in chanting One Neil Lennon.

For example when I travelled to the Faroes last year for a qualifier there were a couple of old school "fans" present - one of whom shouted "No Surrender" during the anthems and was promptly told to f*ck up by about 30 others, and another who questioned Niall McGinns place on the team due to his club affiliation - and ended up getting gubbed for his trouble.

Admittedly there definitely are some (quite a few at some matches) dicks who will go for the old party tunes - I believe that a good few went to the Aviva matches but that was because they wanted to stick one up at ye's. The rest of us (the significant silent majority) stayed at home and were embarassed by the whole lot. You wont find much support for that behaviour on OWC, unless I'm much mistaken. And you won't find it at home matches either, as the majority are there and the few remaining dicks dont even try anything because they know they'll be drowned out.

I'd say there would definitely be opinions on OWC that would put boards.ie noses out of joint - by definition its a Northern Ireland football team forum, they like that Northern Ireland exists which many here struggle to come to terms with (which is a different topic) which is something NI society and the IFA are trying to and will continue to try to come to terms with - there is a feeling of injustice on OWC because there has been huge change, yet perceptions remain the same. Changes of the last remaining divisive symbols (flag, anthem) are continually being debated on forums like OWC - and there is a diverse spectrum of opinion on it, just as there is a diverse spectrum of opinion on everything else in NI.

Anyway thats my tuppence. There will always be a political dimension to an NI football team, by definition. I'd just like it if being proud to be a Northern Irishman didn't immediately cause me to be labelled a bigot by default. That would be progress.

fasttalkerchat

true wrote: »

so you do not recognise a passport which says its " UK of great Britain and N. Ireland."?

My "Pas" ( passport !) is issued by the Republic of Ireland.

What I said was:

To be fair the poster is right. There is no "Northern Ireland" Olympic team.

UK passports are for Britain and NI but the Olympic team is called Team GB.

true

I suppose the USA team is called the American team even though there are people from Hawaii ( several thousand miles from America ) on their team.

Deedsie

true wrote: »

so you do not recognise a passport which says its " UK of great Britain and N. Ireland."?

My "Pas" ( passport !) is issued by the Republic of Ireland.

Mine is issued by Ireland. When did the the FAI start issuing passports?

fasttalkerchat

aquascrotum, I'm not quoting your post because it is long. You made a lot of fair and valid points. I noticed you felt that mixed pubs discriminate against you when you wear an NI top.
In my opinion everyone who wears an NI top is making some type of political statement whereas someone wearing a ROI top may not be.
When I see a NI top I am aware that they may not be a bitter loyalist but I can be 99% sure that they are a unionist/partitionist and someone I want to steer clear of in a pub.

fasttalkerchat

Deedsie wrote: »

Mine is issued by Ireland. When did the the FAI start issuing passports?

Passports for all Irish citizens are issued by the Dail government i.e. the Republic regardless of which side of the border you reside on.

aquascrotum

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

aquascrotum, I'm not quoting your post because it is long. You made a lot of fair and valid points. I noticed you felt that mixed pubs discriminate against you when you wear an NI top.
In my opinion everyone who wears an NI top is making some type of political statement whereas someone wearing a ROI top may not be.
When I see a NI top I am aware that they may not be a bitter loyalist but I can be 99% sure that they are a unionist/partitionist and someone I want to steer clear of in a pub.

So wearing an NI top in Northern Ireland is political, but wearing an RoI top in Northern Ireland isn't? You don't see the irony or inconsistency in that? The main OWC gripe is this inconsistency - mixed pubs viewing an NI top as political but a GAA top (which is just as polarised in NI) as acceptable. Either allow all or ban all to kill the argument.

Kind of sums the whole thing up as per my original post. There are a majority of NI supporters who want to do just that - support their team, without making a political point. Instead if you saw me in the Bot in Belfast you'd think "bigot".

So who has the problem? Given the title of this thread, who is it that hasn't really moved on?

true

aquascrotum wrote: »

So wearing an NI top in Northern Ireland is political, but wearing an RoI top in Northern Ireland isn't?

Its ironic that some of those wearing the RoI top - whither it be in Belfast or in Glasgow - get their money from the UK government, then support the team and fly the flag of a different country.

fasttalkerchat

aquascrotum wrote: »

So wearing an NI top in Northern Ireland is political, but wearing an RoI top in Northern Ireland isn't? You don't see the irony or inconsistency in that? The main OWC gripe is this inconsistency - mixed pubs viewing an NI top as political but a GAA top (which is just as polarised in NI) as acceptable. Either allow all or ban all to kill the argument.

Kind of sums the whole thing up as per my original post. There are a majority of NI supporters who want to do just that - support their team, without making a political point. Instead if you saw me in the Bot in Belfast you'd think "bigot".

So who has the problem? Given the title of this thread, who is it that hasn't really moved on?

I chose to support the ROI because they are called Ireland and represent more of Ireland than the NI team does. Nonetheless, it irks me that the FAI only represent the Island of Ireland when it suits them.

When you choose to support NI you are choosing to accept a sectarian partition. In many cases this is not because the supporter is sectarian but they are making a choice which entrenches the divide.

aquascrotum

true wrote: »

Its ironic that some of those wearing the RoI top - whither it be in Belfast or in Glasgow - get their money from the UK government, then support the team and fly the flag of a different country.

That doesnt bother me in the slightest and I'm not sure if its relevan to the point being debated. If someone from West Belfast wishes to support RoI then good luck to them.

The problem is they are discounting supporting NI on the basis of a 20-year old stereotype (cold house for nationalists / sectarian atmosphere etc) that has moved on and simply does not exist on matchdays any more with very few exceptions. Even Lennon-gate was 10 years ago.

If Caral na Chuillan and Martin McGuinness can attend an NI match (and Peter Robinson can attend a GAA national league match by reciprocation) then progress has been made and should be acknowledged.

Deedsie

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Passports for all Irish citizens are issued by the Dail government i.e. the Republic regardless of which side of the border you reside on.

Dáil Éireann is the government of Ireland. "The republic of Ireland" is a description not a title. It is also a name FIFA gave the FAI representative team. There was a dispute with Northern Ireland over who should be called Ireland. Ireland is the internationally recognised name of the 26 counties (actually we have 34 counties, this is to be reduced).

Anyway back to the point Ireland issued my passport. The united kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland issued Passports to those of a unionist persuasion in Northern Ireland!

K-9

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

When I see a NI top I am aware that they may not be a bitter loyalist but I can be 99% sure that they are a unionist/partitionist and someone I want to steer clear of in a pub.

That says more about you than it does the jersey wearer.

Like 2002 in Derry, if Ireland get a result there'll be loads wearing ROI jerseys and waving tricolors there, doesn't mean they are all SF or IRA supporters, particularly in a city with a strong SDLP tradition.

aquascrotum

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

When you choose to support NI you are choosing to accept a sectarian partition. In many cases this is not because the supporter is sectarian but they are making a choice which entrenches the divide.

Generations ago it was a sectarian divide. To someone born today it is simply the status quo.

I am not a unionist because I am anti Irish - I am a unionist (if only marginally arsed about it) partly because of the background into which I was born and mostly because that is the situation that exists currently and I have no overriding fears or desires to change it that would make my life any better.

Am not sure what vintage you are, but if your older than me then perhaps we're living proof that NI is indeed moving on. I find everything about your classification of me and my support for NI as sectarian as pretty distasteful, and frankly outdated.

true

Deedsie wrote: »

The united kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland issued Passports to those of a unionist persuasion in Northern Ireland!

I know more than a few Catholics in N. I. who have UK passports. Maybe its the usual thing worldwide to have the passport of the government which you pay your taxes to and which in return provides the social services etc of the jurisdiction in question.

Of course I know people there have the choice to get the other passport either, and no harm in that.

Deedsie

true wrote: »

Its ironic that some of those wearing the RoI top - whither it be in Belfast or in Glasgow - get their money from the UK government, then support the team and fly the flag of a different country.

I'm sorry but that is a nothing comment! Plenty of people throughout the UK receive benefits and don't support the four home nations. Why single out Irish people living in Northern Ireland?

fasttalkerchat

Deedsie wrote: »

Dáil Éireann is the government of Ireland.

I do not feel that Dáil Éireann, in its present form, adequately represents all of Ireland. The interests of my British Protestant neighbours are represented to an even lesser extent.
Neither I nor anyone in my electoral constituency can vote in Dáil elections so I cannot understand how you feel that it represents all 32 counties in its current form.

Deedsie

true wrote: »

I know more than a few Catholics in N. I. who have UK passports. Maybe its the usual thing worldwide to have the passport of the government which you pay your taxes to and which in return provides the social services etc of the jurisdiction in question.

Of course I know people there have the choice to get the other passport either, and no harm in that.

Are Catholics not allowed to be unionists? Do they not pay taxes to entitle them to equal British or Irish status?

fasttalkerchat

K-9 wrote: »

That says more about you than it does the jersey wearer.

I should perhaps have been more careful with my wording.
If I know that someone is a unionist and I am in a pub (where drunk words are aplenty) I would avoid them to keep myself safe. If someone is wearing a Rangers/NI/Linfield jersey I would assume that they are a unionist for that purpose only.

aquascrotum

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If I know that someone is a unionist and I am in a pub (where drunk words are aplenty) I would avoid them to keep myself safe.

Holy god. Don't know where to start with that. Must go put my taig-beater back in its box.

All them bad pradestants and all that. Would ye cop on man!

Deedsie

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I do not feel that Dáil Éireann, in its present form, adequately represents all of Ireland. The interests of my British Protestant neighbours are represented to an even lesser extent.
Neither I nor anyone in my electoral constituency can vote in Dáil elections so I cannot understand how you feel that it represents all 32 counties in its current form.

Quote my entire comment please, you misrepresent me by quoting snippets. I don't really care what you feel. Dáil Éireann is the government of Ireland! Read the constitution, the ROI doesn't exist. Bar as a description of Irelands 26 counties and the FAI team. The UK gov recognizes Dáil Éireann to represent Ireland!

true

Deedsie wrote: »

Are Catholics not allowed to be unionists?

They are and many - I would say about a third - of Catholics in N. Ireland wish to stay in the UK.

Even here in the republic there are more than a few who realise we are not capable of governing ourselves. Even Gay Byrne, arguably Irelands most famous media person, suggested we hand the country back to the Queen with a note of apology!

fasttalkerchat

Deedsie wrote: »

The UK gov recognizes Dáil Éireann to represent Ireland!

Doesn't the UK government claim to be the government of Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone?

It wasn't my intention to misrepresent your opinions by quoting snippets. I was saying that from my point of view that since I cannot vote in Dáil elections that they do not represent me adequately.

Deedsie

true wrote: »

They are and many - I would say about a third - of Catholics in N. Ireland wish to stay in the UK.

Even here in the republic there are more than a few who realise we are not capable of governing ourselves. Even Gay Byrne, arguably Irelands most famous media person, suggested we hand the country back to the Queen with a note of apology!

So why distinguish them from unionists? Surely unionism is now a political view and not a social status/religously motivated opinion! There are thousands of unionists in Ireland and about 70% of Northern Ireland are currently unionist!

fasttalkerchat

aquascrotum wrote: »

Holy god. Don't know where to start with that. Must go put my taig-beater back in its box.

All them bad pradestants and all that. Would ye cop on man!

It has nothing to do with being protestant. Because of the history of sectarian killings and beatings in pubs (particularly prevalent in the area I grew up in) I would be wary of what I say in front of someone who I believe to be of a unionist persuasion.
I know that I would be safe talking about a Celtic match or GAA while standing beside an NI supporter at the bar 99% of the time but I still err on the side of caution. Hopefully in the future things will be different.