I can't believe there are still Northern Irish people like this.

Deedsie

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Doesn't the UK government claim to be the government of Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone?

It wasn't my intention to misrepresent your opinions by quoting snippets. I was saying that from my point of view that since I cannot vote in Dáil elections that they do not represent me adequately.

You just did it again. Misquote me again by selecting snippets of my comment and I'll report your attempt to portray my comments incorrectly. Just quote my full comment if you take issue with my comment!

Now antrim, Armagh, Derry, down, Fermanagh and Tyrone are in Northen Ireland. I said Dáil Éireann represents Ireland! A country that at present represents 26 counties. Ireland is the official name of the country! The island of Ireland is made up of Ireland* and Northern Ireland!

*Ireland may be defined as the republic of ireland to distinguish from northern Ireland

fasttalkerchat

Deedsie wrote: »

You just did it again. Misquote me again by selecting snippets of my comment and I'll report your attempt to portray my comments incorrectly. Just quote my full comment if you take issue with my comment!

Now antrim, Armagh, Derry, down, Fermanagh and Tyrone are in Northen Ireland. I said Dáil Éireann represents Ireland! A country that at present represents 26 counties. Ireland is the official name of the country! The island of Ireland is made up of Ireland* and Northern Ireland!

*Ireland may be defined as the republic of ireland to distinguish from northern Ireland

Fair enough.

Since you object to me selecting snippets of your post I'll let you guess what part I'm talking about.

briany

true wrote: »

They are and many - I would say about a third - of Catholics in N. Ireland wish to stay in the UK.

Even here in the republic there are more than a few who realise we are not capable of governing ourselves. Even Gay Byrne, arguably Irelands most famous media person, suggested we hand the country back to the Queen with a note of apology!

I think Gaybo had his tongue planted in cheek on that one. Besides, I don't think the UK would particularly want us at this stage.

To keep this on topic (hopefully) yes, Northern Irish supporters have made leaps and bounds in their progress toward a more united footballing community but there remains a couple of realities that will so for the foreseeable future that threaten to disrupt the process and I'm not sure if they'll be overcome any time soon.

1. Bigotry makes good for a good story. Tabloid newspapers would rather trot out a headline about death threats than the good work done by the IFA and it's supporters in making the N.I. football system more inclusive. This means that the bigots' voice becomes greatly amplified. To change this the bigots would need to be silenced completely or a change be brought about in the culture of news reporting.

2. Players switching associations. This has been causing controversy within the Northern Irish support community, threatening polarisation and understandably so but let's face it, the reason that these players are switching is primarily because as it stands the Republic of Ireland team offers them a greater chance of success in the international arena so it is puzzling when I hear RoI supporters saying the switch is because "He's Irish. End of." as it is when I hear N.I. supporters saying "He should be playing for his country." both arguments are weak and show a willful ignorance of the fact that these are also professional sportsmen who want to play in big tournaments and yes, there is some feeling of affiliation in there but in no way is it the overriding factor.

fasttalkerchat

briany wrote: »

2. Players switching associations. This has been causing controversy within the Northern Irish support community, threatening polarisation and understandably so but let's face it, the reason that these players are switching is primarily because as it stands the Republic of Ireland team offers them a greater chance of success in the international arena so it is puzzling when I hear RoI supporters saying the switch is because "He's Irish. End of." as it is when I hear N.I. supporters saying "He should be playing for his country." both arguments are weak and show a willful ignorance of the fact that these are also professional sportsmen who want to play in big tournaments and yes, there is some feeling of affiliation in there but in no way is it the overriding factor.

I would agree with you there. Nearly all young footballers that I know who play to a decent level are involved with NI, only one is with the republic. Most of them support Ireland but it was NI who offered the chance to play at that level.

Nodin

true wrote: »

They are and many - I would say about a third - of Catholics in N. Ireland wish to stay in the UK.

Even here in the republic there are more than a few who realise we are not capable of governing ourselves. Even Gay Byrne, arguably Irelands most famous media person, suggested we hand the country back to the Queen with a note of apology!

The Sage Gay Byrne? O well it must be the right thing then so.

cournioni

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I would agree with you there. Nearly all young footballers that I know who play to a decent level are involved with NI, only one is with the republic. Most of them support Ireland but it was NI who offered the chance to play at that level.

Sure, and then they play in front of a larger crowd, get taunted and abused, and eventually say f*ck this, I'm going to play for the Republic of Ireland, because they identify themselves as Irish.

sanbrafyffe

very sad and sick people

fasttalkerchat

cournioni wrote: »

Sure, and then they play in front of a larger crowd, get taunted and abused, and eventually say f*ck this, I'm going to play for the Republic of Ireland, because they identify themselves as Irish.

Unfortunately this does often happen but the point stands that they were happy to play for either side because it was mostly a footballing decision.

gurramok

true wrote:

They are and many - I would say about a third - of Catholics in N. Ireland wish to stay in the UK.

Keep dreaming.

aquascrotum wrote: »

The problem is they are discounting supporting NI on the basis of a 20-year old stereotype (cold house for nationalists / sectarian atmosphere etc) that has moved on and simply does not exist on matchdays any more with very few exceptions. Even Lennon-gate was 10 years ago.

Aviva-gate was last year! NI supporters came down here with their Union Flags in abundance and singing GSTQ. That is not what Nationalists support.

Perhaps to be inclusive is to drop these symbols and anthems to attract broader support?

Deedsie

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Unfortunately this does often happen but the point stands that they were happy to play for either side because it was mostly a footballing decision.

Yes, but the obvious counter argument is that the FAI don't have a schoolboys set up in Northern Ireland. If they did the kids would have the option to choose. Underage representation is a tool to improve their ability and as a shop window for club scouts looking for new talent!

I don't think a kid should be hamstrung into being stuck playing for a team they don't associate with because they used the only underage set up available to them to further their professional soccer player ambitions. I know it should be and is an honour to represent a country, but at underage level nationalist or unionist kids have only one option.

In saying that, I don't think it's fair that a player who represents Northern Ireland in a friendly at senior should be allowed transfer to the FAI team.

Equality would be an FAI and IFA school boy set up in Northern Ireland. Let the players decide who they want to represent. You could then have an FAI player defecting the other way.

swimming in a sea

NiallFH wrote: »

I find it odd that this surprises you. Being from the North myself its a very common thing. I know it will sound biased coming from a Nationalist but Unionists/Loyalists for the most part tend to be a nasty bunch.

Goodness that's sounds like a nasty comment, I've worked in Belfast in one job and all around NI in another job and I can honestly say that Unionist people were who I got on best with, helpful and hard workers. The majority of nationalists when they new I was from ROI would think it meant I liked hearing anti protestant jokes and their GAA stories.

The above quote seems to have no relevance when it comes to famous people either, take George Best, Darren Clarke, Graeme Mcdowell, Joey Dunlop and Eddie Irvine who always tried to represent all the people of NI.

fasttalkerchat

swimming in a sea wrote: »

Goodness that's sounds like a nasty comment, I've worked in Belfast in one job and all around NI in another job and I can honestly say that Unionist people were who I got on best with, helpful and hard workers. The majority of nationalists when they new I was from ROI would think it meant I liked hearing anti protestant jokes and their GAA stories.

The above quote seems to have no relevance when it comes to famous people either, take George Best, Darren Clarke, Graeme Mcdowell, Joey Dunlop and Eddie Irvine who always tried to represent all the people of NI.

Eddie Irvine used the tricolour until his family got death threats from Loyalists. Rory McIlroy snubbed the tricolour and the red hand flag.

briany

cournioni wrote: »

Sure, and then they play in front of a larger crowd, get taunted and abused, and eventually say f*ck this, I'm going to play for the Republic of Ireland, because they identify themselves as Irish.

James McClean spoke about this type of experience in playing in the underage NI setup. I would have to question the reality of rife sectarianism at under 21 NI games, though, not least because they can't exactly attract a whole lot of people to begin with and the majority of Northern Ireland fans would be decent people who want to improve their reputation. Therefore I'd say they'd be quick enough to shout down the idiots who'd have the neck and be thick enough to hurl sectarian abuse at a catholic/nationalist player. Nobody really enjoys getting abuse especially over their background but a player who experiences this has to use their head and look to see if it's coming from a mere smattering of idiots living in the stone age or a large vocal group of people.

You only have to look at the NI team to see that there are indeed catholic players present. Take a player like Niall McGinn, he's catholic, he's an RoI fan* and yet he's opted to play for NI. Why would he do so? If he was getting the same kind of abuse as James McClean was claiming to be getting, why not just opt out altogether? Maybe he didn't want to play for RoI or they weren't showing an interest but if it's a choice between not playing for RoI or playing for a team where you allegedly run the risk of getting sectarian abuse and insults then I would say feck the whole lot and just concentrate on the club level game.

*Skip to 1:10*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn8bkvgVTCE

awec

McClean strikes me as more of an idiot than someone with a chip on his shoulder. Comes across as the sort of person who's never met a Protestant in his life which has clearly given him a rather skewed view on life.

He's young and naive. Would be interesting to hear what his current club manager thinks of his inane ramblings.

LordSutch

awec wrote: »

McClean strikes me as more of an idiot than someone with a chip on his shoulder. Comes across as the sort of person who's never met a Protestant in his life which has clearly given him a rather skewed view on life.

Ironic, with a surname like McClean, most of whom I guess are Protestant ???

IrishAm

awec wrote: »

McClean strikes me as more of an idiot than someone with a chip on his shoulder. Comes across as the sort of person who's never met a Protestant in his life which has clearly given him a rather skewed view on life.

He's young and naive. Would be interesting to hear what his current club manager thinks of his inane ramblings.

Or, he could be from Derry and has experienced the joys of being a nationalist in a orange statelet.......

Deedsie

I can't figure out why they don't like us... We are a great bunch of lads!

true

swimming in a sea wrote: »

Goodness that's sounds like a nasty comment, I've worked in Belfast in one job and all around NI in another job and I can honestly say that Unionist people were who I got on best with, helpful and hard workers. The majority of nationalists when they new I was from ROI would think it meant I liked hearing anti protestant jokes and their GAA stories.

+1. As a southerner I always found, over many years , the northern security forces nice people too. I have found northern nationalists / PIRA sympathisers very sectarian in their thinking too.

Fenian Army

awec wrote: »

McClean strikes me as more of an idiot than someone with a chip on his shoulder. Comes across as the sort of person who's never met a Protestant in his life which has clearly given him a rather skewed view on life.

He's young and naive. Would be interesting to hear what his current club manager thinks of his inane ramblings.

You do realize he is from Derry?

Sound of Silence

true wrote: »

+1. As a southerner I always found, over many years , the northern security forces nice people too. I have found northern nationalists / PIRA sympathisers very sectarian in their thinking too.

I'm assuming this wasn't just biased conjecture?

What surprises me is your apparent eagerness to stress Nationalist sectarianism based on what pretty much amounts to some surface level experiences you had in Northern Ireland. You're also clearly reluctant to accept that the UDR had a penchant for Loyalist collusion - This, despite a wealth of links and evidence provided by other posters.

Even among hard-line Loyalists, there is a kind of loosely held belief that Nationalists are less overtly sectarian. I've even witnessed this on bastions of tolerance such as the Rangers Forum, where they like to call it boxing clever.

Whether or not Nationalists are less sectarian is almost impossible to know for certain, but I wouldn't be so quick to paint either community as being more bigoted than the other. If you're going to make claims about either community, at least have the decency to post some supporting evidence.

As for me, I've never really heard any sectarian slurs in the Nationalist community. I've lived there my entire life, and it's never a topic of conversation.

forfuxsake

true wrote: »

+1. As a southerner I always found, over many years , the northern security forces nice people too. I have found northern nationalists / PIRA sympathisers very sectarian in their thinking too.

The Miami Showband found them very nice too, until they started shooting. In reality most of them today are as nice as any other Police Force, in the past they were not. This is why the UDR and the RUC were disbanded.

A small percentage of northern nationalists would consider themselves PIRA sympathisers. For verification of this check out Sinn Fein's election results before it was disbanded and after.

Ms.M

true wrote: »

+1. As a southerner I always found, over many years , the northern security forces nice people too. I have found northern nationalists / PIRA sympathisers very sectarian in their thinking too.

Using a forward slash between northern nationalists and PIRA sympathisers is heavy-handed. Practise what you preach.

Eggy Baby!

go onto youtube and have a look through some of the comments left on videos related to the Troubles, or the paramilitaries. You will get an idea of what kind of attitudes are still alive and well today

Yeah I know right? Like this video for example, such a violent and hateful IRA video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJDeipvpjGQ















(Cookie for getting the reference)

Ms.M

Eggy Baby, you obviously haven't seen this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARv3fAe_UaM

Frightening in a similar vein. But worse. Much, much worse.

woodoo

true wrote: »

Its ironic that some of those wearing the RoI top - whither it be in Belfast or in Glasgow - get their money from the UK government, then support the team and fly the flag of a different country.

Thats because the UK government administers Belfast and Glasgow. Whats their choice? move?

Eggy Baby!

Ms.M wrote: »

Eggy Baby, you obviously haven't seen this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARv3fAe_UaM

Frightening in a similar vein. But worse. Much, much worse.

Did he shout "Ireland" at the end?

briany

Originally Posted by true
Its ironic that some of those wearing the RoI top - whither it be in Belfast or in Glasgow - get their money from the UK government, then support the team and fly the flag of a different country.

If the worst those people did was go around wearing an RoI jersey or fly the flag, I think the law abiding citizens of Belfast or Glasgow would be pretty happy with that overall and if all the fellow dole-ites wearing Celtic, Rangers and NI tops to joined in on the peaceful behavior, we might be one step closer to a utopia.

Protestant behind enemy lines

awec wrote: »

McClean strikes me as more of an idiot than someone with a chip on his shoulder. Comes across as the sort of person who's never met a Protestant in his life which has clearly given him a rather skewed view on life.

He's young and naive. Would be interesting to hear what his current club manager thinks of his inane ramblings.

That seems to be the case. Shame as I think he a good player but if such disrespect towards the Northern Irish National team is down to a disdain for the British Protestants, then that is a shame.

laoch na mona

its fair to say some unionists are a bit not right

IrishAm

Protestant behind enemy lines wrote: »

That seems to be the case. Shame as I think he a good player but if such disrespect towards the Northern Irish National team is down to a disdain for the British Protestants, then that is a shame.

Strange username there, friend. Protestants are very welcome in this part of the country. In fact, the vast majority of people couldn't give a bollix if you were Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim or dissenter.

nizo888

Spent more than six months working in Belfast last year and I had no problems and I've a thick enough Dublin accent.

Didn't venture much into the known flashpoint areas though.

Richard

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Eddie Irvine used the tricolour until his family got death threats from Loyalists.

Not quite, the Union Flag was used initially, but on one of his early races the Irish Tricolour was used by mistake. He asked for a neutral flag (like Barry McGuigan used) to be flown but the FIA refused. I thought too that his family were intimated by loyalists over this issue, but I can't find a reference at the mo. He certainly didn't want to use the Tricolour all the time, however; another possibility was alternating flags.

Rory McIlroy snubbed the tricolour and the red hand flag.

I have seen footage of his father waving the red hand flag - probably best to avoid that really - flag waving like that isn't good for his image.

Richard

laoch na mona wrote: »

its fair to say some unionists are a bit not right

And it's fair to say the same about some nationalists. Your point?

Protestant behind enemy lines

Richard wrote: »

Not quite, the Union Flag was used initially, but on one of his early races the Irish Tricolour was used by mistake. He asked for a neutral flag (like Barry McGuigan used) to be flown but the FIA refused. I thought too that his family were intimated by loyalists over this issue, but I can't find a reference at the mo. He certainly didn't want to use the Tricolour all the time, however; another possibility was alternating flags.



I have seen footage of his father waving the red hand flag - probably best to avoid that really - flag waving like that isn't good for his image.

Lucky for Rory though, there is a freedom to be able to hold what flag you want. Hopefully he isn't intimidated to abandon his political views.

Richard

forfuxsake wrote: »

The Miami Showband found them very nice too, until they started shooting. In reality most of them today are as nice as any other Police Force, in the past they were not. This is why the UDR and the RUC were disbanded.

The UDR was incorporated into the Royal Irish Regiment, whilst the RUC became "Police Service of Northern Ireland (incorporating the Royal Ulster Constabulary)".

Richard

Protestant behind enemy lines wrote: »

Lucky for Rory though, there is a freedom to be able to hold what flag you want. Hopefully he isn't intimidated to abandon his political views.

No, but whatever your political feelings, political wisdom is going to tell you that waving the Ulster Banner is going to alienate some of your fans.

Imagine the outcry that there would be if another Northern Irish golfer or his family started waving the tricolour about.

briany

Richard wrote: »

No, but whatever your political feelings, political wisdom is going to tell you that waving the Ulster Banner is going to alienate some of your fans.

Imagine the outcry that there would be if another Northern Irish golfer or his family started waving the tricolour about.

Not as likely to happen because golf's a relatively cultured game and the people involved in it not so apt to be drawn into sectarianism which is lucky because when the bullets run out, a 9 iron could be used as a weapon.

Sound of Silence

briany wrote: »

Not as likely to happen because golf's a relatively cultured game and the people involved in it not so apt to be drawn into sectarianism which is lucky because when the bullets run out, a 9 iron could be used as a weapon.

How exactly is that sectarian?

A bad choice maybe, but certainly not an expression of sectarian views.

briany

Sound of Silence wrote: »

How exactly is that sectarian?

A bad choice maybe, but certainly not an expression of sectarian views.

The waving of a flag is not necessarily sectarian but it certainly wouldn't be a big leap for the act to be taken that way by some whichever flag they decide to wave. I say fair play to any Northern Irish sportsman who can sidestep the issue of identifying with one community or the other and just get on with his profession with minimal drama.

true

Sound of Silence wrote: »

As for me, I've never really heard any sectarian slurs in the Nationalist community.

Never opened your ears dring a match against rangers or England? During the troubles, I sometimes heard comments like " another black protestant b****d gone" expressed with glee by some nationalists / republicans / PIRA sympathisers if/when they heard another UDR or RUC man was shot. Everyone else heard sectarian comments from some nationalists, especially after a few pints.

fasttalkerchat

true wrote: »

During the troubles, I sometimes heard comments like " another black protestant b****d gone" expressed with glee by some nationalists / republicans / PIRA sympathisers if/when they heard another UDR or RUC man was shot. Everyone else heard sectarian comments from some nationalists, especially after a few pints.

I've never heard the term "black protestant b*****d".
Surely if a Catholic "Black B*****d" was killed that would be the same if not more welcomed?

Deedsie

Some great whataboutery going on now?

Going back to the OP, why is OWC.co.uk a private site? Ybig.ie is public to everyone and anyone to view!

mcko

I am old enough to remember the troubles as we tend to call them, I always thought it was an economic problem rather than a political one. Most people involved with paramilitary groups on both sides were poor working class people from estates that in the south or in England would see them in prison as members of some criminal gang.
Most people had more in common with each other but the Unionist middle class kept the divide in place, the old divide and conquer principle.
I don,t think you will ever have a normal society in the north to be honest, the two governments are happy that soldiers and policemen are not being killed and the bombs have stopped. Apart from that if you live in a poor estate in the north I don't think you got much out of the peace process.

Sad really been to the north a few times, once stayed in Derry for an Easter weekend playing hurling, put up by a family in the bog side, they had feck all but we're the nicest people you could wish to meet.

Monty Burnz

irish-stew wrote: »

As for scotish and english football. In terms of the UK, they are the mainland.

And not just for NI fans. Most ROI folks don't give a toss and know even less about Irish football, but cram the pubs and planes to watch teams from Birmingham, Glasgow, Manchester and London.

gurramok

true wrote: »

Never opened your ears dring a match against rangers or England? During the troubles, I sometimes heard comments like " another black protestant b****d gone" expressed with glee by some nationalists / republicans / PIRA sympathisers if/when they heard another UDR or RUC man was shot. Everyone else heard sectarian comments from some nationalists, especially after a few pints.

This is a strange one. One could only know such detail unless they were a regular follower of Rangers or Celtic as Ireland rarely played England in soccer over the last 30 years. Curious, which side you support?

Deedsie

true wrote: »

Never opened your ears dring a match against rangers or England? During the troubles, I sometimes heard comments like " another black protestant b****d gone" expressed with glee by some nationalists / republicans / PIRA sympathisers if/when they heard another UDR or RUC man was shot. Everyone else heard sectarian comments from some nationalists, especially after a few pints.

I know of and Ireland v England game in the 5 nations in 1972 where the Irish crowd gave England a standing ovation before the game even started. And rightly so, under the threat of violence from the PIRA the England team still travelled unlike their Scottish and Welsh counterparts.

Also the title to the thread is can't believe there are still people like this today.

J Cheever Loophole

I wont bother with the 'us' and 'them' arguments.

Deedsie wrote: »

I know of and Ireland v England game in the 5 nations in 1972 where the Irish crowd gave England a standing ovation before the game even started. And rightly so, under the threat of violence from the PIRA the England team still travelled unlike their Scottish and Welsh counterparts.

However, on a football related matter, I'm not sure this is the case Deedsie. I have a notion that there were a number of years at the start of the troubles where there was no international matches in Belfast. The reason I say this is that I recall as a kid going to see Northern Ireland play Yugoslavia (possibly 1975), and from memory it was the first international match to be played in Belfast since 1971 when the USSR had played. I'm open to correction though.

As regards 1972, that was actually a famous Northern Ireland victory over Engalnd at Wembley - Terry Neill scored the winner in a 1-0 win.

Monty Burnz

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

I wont bother with the 'us' and 'them' arguments.

Deedsie wrote: »

I know of and Ireland v England game in the 5 nations in 1972 where the Irish crowd gave England a standing ovation before the game even started. And rightly so, under the threat of violence from the PIRA the England team still travelled unlike their Scottish and Welsh counterparts.

However, on a football related matter, I'm not sure this is the case Deedsie. I have a notion that there were a number of years at the start of the troubles where there was no international matches in Belfast. The reason I say this is that I recall as a kid going to see Northern Ireland play Yugoslavia (possibly 1975), and from memory it was the first international match to be played in Belfast since 1971 when the USSR had played. I'm open to correction though.

As regards 1972, that was actually a famous Northern Ireland victory over Engalnd at Wembley - Terry Neill scored the winner in a 1-0 win.

It was a Five Nations game - rugby. The English were hammered, and at the after-match dinner that evening, the captain said 'we may be rubbish, but at least we turn up'.

J Cheever Loophole

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It was a Five Nations game - rugby. The English were hammered, and at the after-match dinner that evening, the captain said 'we may be rubbish, but at least we turn up'.

Apologies to Deedsie - just noticed that - thanks Monty.

Ms.M

gurramok wrote: »

This is a strange one. One could only know such detail unless they were a regular follower of Rangers or Celtic as Ireland rarely played England in soccer over the last 30 years. Curious, which side you support?

But gurramok, if you were a bitter sectarian Catholic wouldn't it be smart to post like this? Could be misconstrued to represent an unfortunate element of unionist society...
Or you could just be a not very smart bitter sectarian Protestant.

Smart and sectarian don't seem to go well together though.

But that poster is a southerner. Phew! I would sure hate to offend anyone. :eek: