If funding stopped?

chickenfarmer

SoJoMo wrote: »

My point was that if the EU supports go then beef farming will end up being a "stack em high sell em cheap" business ... high volume/low margin

Your comment followed a comment about Pigs been fed anti-biotics to keep them alive in conditions that no-one would boast about. That is definitely not the case in poultry production. Even the stack em high idea is not a fair comment on poultry production. We are regulated and frequently inspected by the dept (every flock) to ensure that the welfare of the birds is up to scratch and that all stocking densities are strictly adhered to as prescribed by the dept.

I understand your point now tho. Intensive farming model.

As explained above I picked it up that it was to do with antibiotics and poor housing conditions.

reilig

We are in the top 4 beef exporting countries in the world. The Irish agri-food sector accounts for 60% of exports from Irish-owned companies, valued at €8bn per year, and provides up to 250,000 jobs or 20% of all jobs outside greater Dublin. With an output value of €2bn, including beef exports of 500,000t and live cattle exports of over 300,000 head, the beef and livestock sector employs over 120,000 people including farmers.

You're talking 1970's IFA when the largest countries in the world were telling us that the future of food production was GMO. Things have changed significantly in the last 15 years and the IFA have a clear stance on GM Food

http://gmoireland.blogspot.com/2006/05/irish-farmers-association-finally-take.html

Pigs meat, as well as chicken, lamb and beef are all part of the traceability scheme that exists in this country. You, as a consumer, as part of this traceability scheme, you can see where your bacon comes from, you can find out how it was fed - organically or intensively. You can see what the pig was treated with. And therefore, because of this traceability scheme, you, and anyone else in the world who buys our bacon can choose the pork that you but. The shine on the bacon that you buy is caused by the way that the bacon was cured as opposed to the amount or type of antibiots that the pig might have been treated with.

Only the pork which may have been contaminated was removed from the shop shelves. This was done as a precaution, and a wide circle of pork products were removed in order to maintain consumber confidence. Surely the speedy manner in which this pork was removed, and the fact that they were able to identify pork products that may have been contaminated is a testiment to how well the traceability scheme is working. No other country in the world has the processes in place to handle a situation in such an efficient manner.

Urea isn't used to dry grain. You are giving misleading information here which may be taken up wrong by people. Ammonia from urea is used to crimp grain for storage. This is a natural product and it is used in many other aspects of preservation such as silage making. It has been used for preservation for hundreds of years. It keeps disease spreading vermin at bay and prevents the growth of mould.

Around here, cattle like our slatted sheds. When the ground gets wet, and they are ploughing to their bellies, they will almost walk to the sheds themselves. Cattle are much healthier in properly built sheds with proper ventilation and protection from the rain. Housing cattle reduces pollution from runnoff of muck, slurry and urine to rivers which can be spread on the land once the ground is dry enough to absorb it. I think that you may be confusing slatted sheds with poor animal welfare conditions of feedlots which can be seen in South America, USa and the European continent - these animals go onto the feedlots at 6 months of age and never see grass until the day that they are slaughtered. They are force fed with concentrates to ensure fast growth. In Ireland, 99% of our beef is grass fed and supplimented with a very small proportion of concentrates. This is what makes our beef tender and tasty, and cheaper to feed than in any other contry in the world.

SoJoMo wrote: »

I don’t disagree but my question was not what % of our produce is exported which is high and very important to us but what % of the international trade is made up of our exports?



One of the reasons that the Greens were disliked in the last government was that they wanted to make ireland GMO free.
How many of our farming bodies have organised a campaign to ban GMOs and stop the trials by Teagasc? And it says enough that a government body that’s there to help Irish farmers are even allowed to do this without all farmers complaining.
If the IFA does not actively come out against it and protect our land and food from GMOs then they are secretly, uncontroversailly and tacitally agreeing with it. The current IFA man has argued for the allowing of GMO feed to help the profits of the pork industry and so its not a long step from that to wanting something similar and more to help the profits of the all farmers when the EU funding ends. If he/them were actively against GMOs in ireland then he’d say so and be fighting to protect our “green” status.
http://www.ifa.ie/IFAInformation/tabid/586/ctl/Detail/mid/2202/xmid/4245/xmfid/23/Default.aspx



Again, I can see the name and maybe the face of the pig farmer on my pack of bacon but but his pigs are still being feed antibiotics in conditions that no one would boast about and I fear thats what will happen to the beef industry if/when eu supports end. Tracebility is a nice gimmicky selling point but does not prove anything only the source of the meat.



If traceibility worked so well to remove the contaminated pork from the food chain then why was all pork removed – possibility PR/optics – but still it has to be said that the result of traceibility on the consumer was very little.





Well I wont presume to tell you what you do or dont know but from my experience when our cattle are given a choice in winter to go out and sit at the back of a ditch or go inside on the concret slats then 6 days out of 7 they will stay out side even in bad weather and they usually end up being the healtiest ones. You go stand on a concret factory floor in your rubber booths for as little as 8 hours a day and you will feel the affects.
Meal is natural, using Urea to dry it is not and fattening/killing a bull at 16 months or a chicken at 10-12 weeks is not but thats what more irish farmers might have to do in the race to the bottom when EU funding ends.
This is my point and is the future I see for farming when EU funding ends



Fair enough but give me time to find it. I remember reading it as a small point in an article about something else and it just struct me as very contradictory to the usual cliche they trot out…. Thats why I remembered it

djmc

chickenfarmer wrote: »

Your comment followed a comment about Pigs been fed anti-biotics to keep them alive in conditions that no-one would boast about. That is definitely not the case in poultry production. Even the stack em high idea is not a fair comment on poultry production. We are regulated and frequently inspected by the dept (every flock) to ensure that the welfare of the birds is up to scratch and that all stocking densities are strictly adhered to as prescribed by the dept.

I understand your point now tho. Intensive farming model.

As explained above I picked it up that it was to do with antibiotics and poor housing conditions.

That is made up about pig farmers too
A pig only gets an antibotic injection if it is sick same as a cow or sheep or any other animal and thats a very small percent
there is nothing wrong with the conditions they are keeped in either they preform better indoars than outdoars because they are warmer
and more comfortable.
Most pig farmers were put out of business here in the last few years when
animal rights activists convinced politics that it was cruel to tie up sows
when the were untied under eu law natural peckin order kicked in they fought
for place first to eat etc. leading some getting too fat to get pregnent others
not getting enough to eat and getting hurt more abortions less pigs born etc.
All because some genius who never worked on a pig farm thought they knew everything.
I suppose next they will want to ban slatted houses for cattle and let them
die outside over the winter
Pig farms are inspected by bord bia

SoJoMo

my question was about the our exports as a % of the international trade in beef? still waiting for that
when a country has a food scare and no traceability then they remove all products ... same as we did with our traceability
The article about the current IFA president and GMOs was not from the 1970s but from last year and I would love to be shown evidence that they are against it because I'd feel alot better about our future
there might be good reason to use ammonia\urea but I dont want it in me food and the consumer would not want it if given a choice
First I'm misleading and then I'm confused ... you can bully and insult me all you want but my experience is not of foriegn feedlots but on our own farm and given a choice the cattle prefer to be outside and are healthier for it

draiochtanois

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axel7

Do you know what urea is ? A derivative of nitrogen. The human body contains urea. It's in no way harmful (except very large concentrations). I've never heard of urea being used to dry grain.

fodda

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And like you will never believe.......together with fuel prices through the roof.

Food can be produced at a lower cost here than virtually anywhere else in the world.

How ? Ireland does not have much good quality land. Has some of the worst of the European weather. Has to import all it's fuel, ......hasnt invested in renewables........has too many small less productive farms (not even called farms elsewhere).......doesnt manufacture agricultural equipment so has to import these.

axel7

Because we have some of the worst European weather we have such green, lush grass.

KCTK

SoJoMo wrote: »

my question was about the our exports as a % of the international trade in beef? still waiting for that

This link will show you the % of international trade in Beef Ireland does, it stood at 10% in 2010 and we are the 4th largest exporter in the world, we currently produce enough beef to feed 30 million consumers. So if we stopped producing beef in the morning I think you would have to admit that a sudden 10% drop in the world trade in beef would have to have a marked effect in worldwide beef prices.

http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/2965/ireland-looks-to-germany-for-beef-export-opportunities

fodda

axel7 wrote: »

Because we have some of the worst European weather we have such green, lush grass.

So does New Zealand 24/7 365 days per year.

So do parts of UK, France and other European countries.

I should imagine there are quite a few countries which have parts of their countryside similar to Irelands climate.

reilig

SoJoMo wrote: »

my question was about the our exports as a % of the international trade in beef? still waiting for that
when a country has a food scare and no traceability then they remove all products ... same as we did with our traceability
The article about the current IFA president and GMOs was not from the 1970s but from last year and I would love to be shown evidence that they are against it because I'd feel alot better about our future
there might be good reason to use ammonia\urea but I dont want it in me food and the consumer would not want it if given a choice
First I'm misleading and then I'm confused ... you can bully and insult me all you want but my experience is not of foriegn feedlots but on our own farm and given a choice the cattle prefer to be outside and are healthier for it

Please point out where I bullied and insulted you and I will make a full apology.
Your farm must be different to most with regard to your sheds and your cattle. if you have issue with the way that you keep cattle, why do you keep doing it?
Ammonia is in practically everything you eat. If you want it out of your food, stop eating food and drinking water. It occurs naturally in the atmosphere. when it is used in liquid form to crimp grain, it evaporates within minutes of being applied to the grain and is absorbed back into the atmosphere.

International beef export figures

Brazil 1.2 million tonnes in 2011
Argentina 1.1 million tonnes in 2011
Ireland 500,000 tonnes of processed beef + 365,000 live cattle (@ approx 200,000 ton if it was processed).

Keeping in mind that both Brazil and argentina have massive home markets with Brazil producing over 9 million tonnes of beef annually, and Argentina with quite similar figures, our ratio of beef produced to exported is staggering at 90% exported.

Brazil had 25% of the world's beef export market in 2011 - down from 30% in 2007. Argentina had approximately 22% of the world's beef export market in 2011. Ireland had approximately 12%.

Hope that answers your questions.

reilig

axel7 wrote: »

Do you know what urea is ? A derivative of nitrogen. The human body contains urea. It's in no way harmful (except very large concentrations). I've never heard of urea being used to dry grain.

Ammonia derived from urea is used to crimp the kernals on the outside of grain to preserve it. there is no drying involved in the process.

bbam

SoJoMo wrote: »

My point was that if the EU supports go then beef farming will end up being a "stack em high sell em cheap" business ... high volume/low margin

Many of us are trying to get into a position where we can produce more
And more efficiently which will allow us to continue to produce a food quality product if and when supports are removed.
I disagree with the idea that Irish farming will throw out all ethical standards at the first hurdle and produce crap products. Maybe some of the more synical out there will but they probably don't farm to that high of standards anyway with their cattle preferring to lie at the back of a cold wet ditch rather than in a clean dry well designed shed.

Farming well after supports will be possible but only by those preparing NOW to do it. Those that go on for the moment as if things will never change will have a tough time surviving.

SoJoMo

reilig wrote: »

Please point out where I bullied and insulted you and I will make a full apology.
Your farm must be different to most with regard to your sheds and your cattle. if you have issue with the way that you keep cattle, why do you keep doing it?
Ammonia is in practically everything you eat. If you want it out of your food, stop eating food and drinking water. It occurs naturally in the atmosphere. when it is used in liquid form to crimp grain, it evaporates within minutes of being applied to the grain and is absorbed back into the atmosphere.

Brazil had 25% of the world's beef export market in 2011 - down from 30% in 2007. Argentina had approximately 22% of the world's beef export market in 2011. Ireland had approximately 12%.

Hope that answers your questions.

Now you presume to tell me that I have an issue with the way I keep my cattle. Yours are healthier indoors, mine are given a choice and prefer and are healthier out.... no issue.

Good luck

SoJoMo

bbam wrote: »

they probably don't farm to that high of standards anyway with their cattle preferring to lie at the back of a cold wet ditch rather than in a clean dry well designed shed.
.

Ours was designed by an Ag department guy, is very well ventilated, clean and dry as a slatted shed can be but given a choice the cattle prefer to be out and are healthier for it... maybe ours are more like free range chickens :-)
questioning our standards? ah jaysus
Good luck

reilig

SoJoMo wrote: »

Now you presume to tell me that I have an issue with the way I keep my cattle. Yours are healthier indoors, mine are given a choice and prefer and are healthier out.... no issue.

Good luck

You are the person who said that you have an issue with keeping cattle in a slatted shed. Yet you tell us that you have a slatted shed. Just like you have a choice when buying pork products, you also have a choice as to whether you want to house your cows or not. It is your decision. There is no need for you to justify your decisions to me, nor me to you!

Of course mine are healthier inside. My land is very poor. The cows sink to above their knees if we get rain. Calves left out for the winter get chills and have respiratory problems. If I was to leave my cattle out for the winter, they would do so much damage to the ground that it would take half of the following summer for it to recover. And given a choice, mine will always choose dry slats with a straw lie back as opposed to standing to their oxters in mud. As you say, No Issue.

Good Luck to you too.

SoJoMo

reilig wrote: »

You are the person who said that you have an issue with keeping cattle in a slatted shed.
Good Luck to you too.

ah FFS .. I never said I had an issue with keeping cattle in a slatted shed ... its you who presumed to tell me that I have ... all my point was that they are healthier out - its you who has the problem of not being able to give them the choice.

Aye and good luck again

axel7

There you go:

"Keeping animals housed for up to 6 months on slats over a pit of their own **** is not good for man or beast"

I'm sure you're referring to slatted shed of some description here SoJoMo

Farmer Pudsey

SoJoMo wrote: »

ah FFS .. I never said I had an issue with keeping cattle in a slatted shed ... its you who presumed to tell me that I have ... all my point was that they are healthier out - its you who has the problem of not being able to give them the choice.

Aye and good luck again

SoJo/Relig alot is down to stocking levels and land. If I stock at very low levels I could winter outside however I would have no grass in spring and be unable to make decent quality silage cattle would take longer to finish and I would fail to meet age limits required by consumers/retailers.

Yes if cattle have a dry lye under a hedge they are healthier and happier however there are times that when you get wet wild weather in Ireland. We are the one of the wetest countries in the world they do not get as much rain in NZ. We average 40'' in Ireland and places along the west cost get 80'' rainfall a year. So while an animal might be quite happy under a hedge in Wexford where I think the recvieve 28'' rainfall a years it might not be happy on the side of a mountain in Mayo if it was hungry. In winter depending on conditions cattle can be as happy inside as outside.

There has always been more of a tradition of housing catte in the West of ireland more so than the east or midlands.

SoJoMo

axel7 wrote: »

There you go:

"Keeping animals housed for up to 6 months on slats over a pit of their own **** is not good for man or beast"
I'm sure you're referring to slatted shed of some description here SoJoMo

I dont see how that negates my point that they are healthier out and ours are given a choice and choose (mostly) to go out side ..
If I was allowed I'd have them out on kale for the winter.
I dont think I'm wrong in thinking that standing on concret for up to 6 months is good for an animal... why did they introduce rubber mats?

All this was related to what I think is one of the possibilities post eu funding ie more intensive farming which if allowed can be less heathy for the animals and if we are not careful will affect the reputation people say we have for quality food

axel7

You said you didn't have an issue with cattle and slatted sheds. However you previously posted that you have an issue with ""Keeping animals housed for up to 6 months on slats over a pit of their own **** is not good for man or beast". Conflicting.

SoJoMo

Axel - I forgot that you like debating :-)
Anyways, my response was to being pretty much told that if I didnt like the way that I cared for my animals then I why do I keep doing it. the thing is I dont have a probelm with it as they can go in and out of the shed. If you are looking for an issue then its that - No one has convinced me that an animal on slats for 6 months is as healthy as an animal out doors.

And sure while I'm here:
I have not been convinced that traceibility in and of itself equals quality food (see my points above), nor that irish farmers get paid any/much more for their cattle than farmers elsewhere (see above) and I'm not convinced that the likes of the IFA or Teagasc are willing to actively protect our "green" status and our unique selling point for competing with farmers who have enormous economies of scale - being neutral or conducting GMO trials is not good enough.

from KCTKs link it seems like in 2010 that Brazil had 40% and Ireland had 10% of the export market

djmc

What is wrong with GM crops is there any evidence that they are harmful to health Im asking because I dont know much about it other than its in some soya
bean meal imported into the country for animal feed

SoJoMo

sorry djmc, dont mean to be short with you and I'm pretty much finished here but google is your friend, there might even be a section on boards who will happily help you. my point is that if we are not careful we could end up competing on the same level with farmers who have economies of scale that we can never have while loosing our unique selling point in the market place