Trashiness and Gaming

johnny_ultimate

So: let's talk about sex and the gaming industry's continued odd relationship with it.

I'm kind of curious just to hear people's thought on that relatively wide topic, and I was provoked to start this thread after reading this. I'm not going all PC here: I'm well aware Saints Row is a series that has built itself on increasingly outrageous exploitation, and sometimes to amusing effect. But when does this all stop becoming blissfully ironic & 'grindhouse' and just become sort of embarrassing? I think we can all name plenty of games - from Leisure Suit Larry to Dead or Alive Extreme Volleyball - that understandably lend gaming a slightly negative and misogynistic image. Even great games aren't immune to it, though. I think Bayonetta is the finest game of the generation in terms of basic gameplay, but it's trashy as hell nonetheless. Mass Effect and Dragon Age's sex scenes and disproportionate female characters are entirely worthy of much ridicule. Heavy Rain's 'adult' content still was slightly disturbingly skewed towards violence against women / pointless nudity. The jury is out on whether Lollipop Chainsaw is going to be cleverly subversive or childishly exploitative. Don't even get me started on Japan's... seedier side! And, as fascinating as Catherine is, it's not exactly the most balanced portrayal of gender ever conceived.

Not to say there aren't a plethora of sensible developers and gamers out there, crafting and applauding strong female protagonists like Jade or FemShep. And, of course, the many, many games that don't even consider indulging in their basest instincts. But when I look at many games and their trashy presentation, I just can't tell who they're aimed. Certainly not me: the twenty-something hetrosexual male gamer. Certainly not a female audience. And certainly not the critics of gaming culture who simply find more ammunition to mock us with (and, alas, with good cause). There's an audience, supposedly, but is it an imagined one? Or perhaps one that should probably be ignored? Not that gaming is unique in this respect (from Zoo magazine to the well-made but undeniably trashy Game of Thrones) but we sure have a long way to go IMO...

So I open up the floor to you, male and female gamers alike. Is gaming culture too obsessed with trash and exploitation? Or are you happy to ignore it in the name of entertainment? Are we stuck in adolescence, or simply stuck with the unavoidable quirks of being a mass market medium? Or, indeed, is it not a problem at all and the negativity simply politically correct ramblings?

nyarlothothep

Sometimes sex is part of the plot, I don't consider that trashy so GoT isn't trashy. Dragonage isn't trashy either, why should it be? The relationships play into the development of the plot and characters. As for those titles you mentioned, yes some of them sound exploitative. I can't claim to be any different but as a culture we seem to treat sex in films/games etc as somehow inherently more taboo than violence in terms of embarrasment etc and why is this?

johnny_ultimate

Well the problem with something like GoT or Dragon Age is they don't need to be quite as trashy as they need to be. Not saying there aren't plot justifications (and some of the Bioware female characters are actually pretty well written, like Liara or Tali), but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. Mass Effect and Dragon Age particularly - the sex scenes are so awful that the only appropriate response is to laugh at the ludicrousness of it all. At least Mass Effect has the good sense to cut to black from time to time, rather than the bizarre humping and chest hugging jumpsuits we have to put up with the rest of the time.

Games, like other mediums, need to address the topic of sex to tell stories - it's actually pretty much unavoidable as a topic, and it shouldn't be taboo (we can blame America for that one). But I think there's a more mature way to handle it. Has there been any game that has handled sexual content in a wholly sensible way?

nyarlothothep

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well the problem with something like GoT or Dragon Age is they don't need to be quite as trashy as they need to be. Not saying there aren't plot justifications (and some of the Bioware female characters are actually pretty well written, like Liara or Tali), but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. Mass Effect and Dragon Age particularly - the sex scenes are so awful that the only appropriate response is to laugh at the ludicrousness of it all. At least Mass Effect has the good sense to cut to black from time to time, rather than the bizarre humping and chest hugging jumpsuits we have to put up with the rest of the time.

They're not trashy at all, they're just...well explicit compared to subtle, which is to say they show the sex scenes as opposed to cutting to the next day where they're in bed or move the camera away to a silhouette or something like that. But why should explicit=trashy? I mean we have explicit sex scenes in books, some of which are completely ridiculous and actually do descend into trashiness, Peter F Hamilton comes to mind. But it doesn't necessarily render the work as a whole trashy. Yes the sex scenes in DA and ME look silly but that's down to the limitations of the medium and also...ok the sex scenes aren't necessary and are just there to draw in the male demographic but they sort of contribute to the plot, the consummation of the relationship in the story etc.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Games, like other mediums, need to address the topic of sex to tell stories - it's actually pretty much unavoidable as a topic, and it shouldn't be taboo (we can blame America for that one). But I think there's a more mature way to handle it. Has there been any game that has handled sexual content in a wholly sensible way?

Hmm...no. Not to my knowledge.

johnny_ultimate

nyarlothothep wrote: »

They're not trashy at all, they're just...well explicit compared to subtle, which is to say they show the sex scenes as opposed to cutting to the next day where they're in bed or move the camera away to a silhouette or something like that. But why should explicit=trashy? I mean we have explicit sex scenes in books, some of which are completely ridiculous and actually do descend into trashiness, Peter F Hamilton comes to mind. But it doesn't necessarily render the work as a whole trashy. Yes the sex scenes in DA and ME look silly but that's down to the limitations of the medium and also...ok the sex scenes aren't necessary and are just there to draw in the male demographic but they sort of contribute to the plot, the consummation of the relationship in the story etc.

It's certainly a fine line between explicit and trashy, can't deny that. Look at a film like Shortbus and you have a film where the explicit sex actually feels completely necessary to the plot. I guess it's the difference between that and actual porn - where does one stop and the other begin? To me trashiness is when the relevance stops. It's actually really hard-to-pin down. And you're right about books - there's a reason the Bad Sex Awards exist :pac:

Perhaps you're right that gaming as a medium is inherently restricted by its very nature. Perhaps (ahem) bump mapping will never be able to adequately capture a sex scene that's anything more than ridiculous. But still: I'm not convinced gaming has moved beyond the Carry On approach to sex yet. Phwoar phwoar, wink wink and all that. Something like the Saint's Row DLC is just cringey to me, and that level of 'maturity' is all too common.

Retr0gamer

Another problem is that games aren't really accepted as a medium for expressing and exploring sexual issues. For example there's the controversy over the release of Rule of Rose in the West. The politicians jumped on it and it got pulled from the UK and Ireland by its publisher. It was accused of promoting and celebrating brutallity to minors and pedophilia. I've played the game and it's very tame. It is in fact a fantastic look at bullying within close nit groups of female children. There are hints that some of the children were sexually abused but it's never gratuitous just hinted at and its more about how they react and deal with it.

Even the sex scenes in Mass Effect caused controversy, I remember one politician saying that you could act out any sexual desire even male on male sex, which is of course total lies.

I'd love for games to explore sex and relationships in a more intellectual and mature manner but the fact remains that most games are written and produced by people in their mid to late twenties who aren't really mature enough to deal with it and it's also not very often that you find someone that is a lead on a game project and a good writer. There's exceptions of course, the likes of Ken Levine and Itoi Shigesato who is a writer and worked on the Mother games for Nintendo, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule. It's for this reason that I think the most satisfying developments in this area will be by indie developers.

Morag

Sexuality and sexual expression in games doesn't bother me, sexism does.

pixelburp

Well it goes without saying that the prime source for general immaturity & crassness are the marketing departments of devlopers & publishers; they're the ones who come up with all the cringe-inducing campaigns, clearly have massive budgets or creative free-reign, and they have positively embraced the "bad boy" image of gaming; effectively using the accusations of being a crass and trashy medium as tools for promotion.

There's no publicity like bad publicity and all that lark, don't forget. And it's not always about sex either: marketing campaigns for games such as Dantes Inferno or Dead Space 2 have shown this. I don't think it's about hitting a target market - I think it's simply a case of attention for attention's sake & the more elaborate and excessive it is, the better

So the solution is actually kind of simple: once gaming blogs / journalism / press stop giving coverage to this kind of material, the industry will move on and mature naturally. It's like any hyperactive, attention-seeking child: once you stop giving it the attention it craves, it'll calm down.

Having worked in a marketing agency myself and seen the ideology firsthand, you really can't underestimate the natural troublemaking mentality of marketeers. And it's not like gaming history isn't littered with apparent precedent of bad-press giving games an extra leg-up in sales (Carmeggedon, Doom, Soldier of Fortune ...). Gaming will grow-up when we stop rewarding its idiocy.

krudler

I thought Naughty Dog made a very positive step forward with Uncharted 3, not only is the villain female, she's middle aged. Not some big titted caricature who swans around in skin tight tops, but an actual woman, who looks like a real person would. More realistic female characters and less cliche video game chicks please.

johnny_ultimate

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Even the sex scenes in Mass Effect caused controversy, I remember one politician saying that you could act out any sexual desire even male on male sex, which is of course total lies.

Actually not a lie anymore, as they did introduce male-male relationships in Mass Effect 3 (which, despite its shoddy execution, is actually to be applauded for at least offering the choice). What's funny is that the FemShep option actually had gay relationships from the off. I'm not actually sure if that proves any point. But I guess it just illustrates the hetrosexual male perspective - actually a considerably skewed parody of that - is the dominant one.

Pixelburp makes an interesting point about the violence aspect of it too. Does Sniper Elite v2 really require such a graphic kill cam? How many games over the years have actually attracted attention solely for their violence? Of course, gratuitous violence in itself has existed in great art over the years, especially in cinema (films of Takeshi Miike, or Martyrs). Perhaps the problem is games rarely actually have a point to make through their 'extreme' content, other than the visceral thrill of it. Bioshock sort of did in the 'golf club' scene, but other than that I can't think of many games that actually use violence to genuinely provoke or critique in a more positive manner. Instead, it's the grindhouse or exploitation effect again: hollow thrills, with no attempt to justify them.

Retr0gamer

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Actually not a lie anymore, as they did introduce male-male relationships in Mass Effect 3

He was talking about the first game though.

Dave_The_Sheep

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I get the impression that most games include sex not for story reasons, or because it enhances the emotional impact of the game or any actual proper reason. More they do it to;

a) Attract a male audience. *

b) Get a bit of media attention and thus a higher profile.

* Most, if not all, of the sex scenes in games that I've seen was there to titillate males rather than females. That's understandable, males are the larger gaming demographic compared to females. But you can't really take it seriously when it's like this. Even if ME or Dragon Age, sure it was an interesting diversion but it hardly mattered in the grand scheme of things (the sex, as opposed to the romance - "gay" as that sounds).

5uspect

I think I lot of it has to do with the growing development of technology. From an 8bit Samus in a bikini to a low poly, top heavy Lara Croft, the female form in games had probably historically been designed by male nerdy types who probably had little female contact.

With the maturation of gaming technologically the culture hasn't really changed and we're left with hyper sexualied female characters and beefcake male leads with a big weapon. This could be because the target audience appears to be a 16 year old hormone machine, but also because the stories that drive games haven't really changed. The addition of sex scenes is just the logical extension of longer, but similar, stories.

The awfulness of the HL2 cinematic mod's trashy Alyx models really show how far some developers have come in creating a fairly normal female character. The female characters in the L4D games are also pretty good.

There also seems to be competition as to who can make the curviest, most tessellated arse for us to leer at, see Catwoman in Arkham City and of course Bayonetta. Ask a 3D modeller to make you a female character and you'll get the modern interpretation of the idealised female form rather than an ordinary woman. (Actually I remember such a competition a few years back)

But as significant advances in graphics fidelity are somewhat plateauing (we're adding better textures and more polygons to more detailed worlds rather than making the massive jump form low res 2D to 3D) we hopefully should see the stories that drive games also mature as the barriers to development fall to better story tellers.

We're seeing more and more attention given to indie games and I would imagine/hope that we'll see more intelligent and sophisticated approaches to sex and sexuality in this area.

Reekwind

5uspect wrote: »

I think I lot of it has to do with the growing development of technology. From an 8bit Samus in a bikini to a low poly, top heavy Lara Croft, the female form in games had probably historically been designed by male nerdy types who probably had little female contact

I think you've identified the problem here but it's not a matter of developing technology. Or rather, it's in the development of the technology

I don't work in the field myself but by all accounts games developers remain a male-dominated environment (surprise) and often hotbeds of misogyny. There's been a few blogs/accounts over the years from female workers who have been really uncomfortable with that environment. It shouldn't be a surprise when this filters through to game design. Put a dozen manchildren in a room and they're likely to come up with obscenely top-heavy character designs and testicle-popping kill-cams, regardless of the technology available

Retr0gamer wrote:

Another problem is that games aren't really accepted as a medium for expressing and exploring sexual issues

But can anyone name more than a half dozen AAA titles (if even that?) that have seriously tried to explore these issues? I don't think anyone here has a problem with sex/sexuality in games but rather the industry's instinctive to shun this in favour of titillation and exploitation

dibkins

Reekwind wrote: »

testicle-popping kill-cams

And to think, just a few weeks ago that was just a dream...

Sarky

Best relationship I've seen in a recent game was Captain Titus and 2nd Lieutenant Mira in Space Marine. Whenever she was in it she was busy organising a planet-wide resistance and getting sh*t done. I'm not sure if it was meant to turn out like that, but it worked, and I quite enjoyed how she engaged with the other characters. So I'd say kudos to the developers there. If it was a mistake, pretend it wasn't and keep doing things like that.

gizmo

pixelburp wrote: »

Well it goes without saying that the prime source for general immaturity & crassness are the marketing departments of devlopers & publishers; they're the ones who come up with all the cringe-inducing campaigns, clearly have massive budgets or creative free-reign, and they have positively embraced the "bad boy" image of gaming; effectively using the accusations of being a crass and trashy medium as tools for promotion.

God this is so true. The recent Team Ghost bull**** for Ghost Recon made me ill...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K0eRtLeFiM

richymcdermott

i dont have a problem of sex scenes in videogames as long its comes natural. if a developer feels a couple should express love towards another in a scene in the story im ok for , i more have a problem with the image developers have towards women who seem thrashy and nothing more like just to get kids blood pumping and too buy the games.
Capcom had jill valentine nailed down perfect before they decided to bring out resi 5 and have her blonde with her in spandex with her cleavage showing that just annoyed me more than anything.
but yeah it is sort of annoyance but i think its should just be ignored at this stage

TheGunns

gizmo wrote: »

God this is so true. The recent Team Ghost bull**** for Ghost Recon made me ill...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K0eRtLeFiM

I dont see how they think we might believe that she plays....via kinect..... half naked

honestly, no one will play via kinect :pac:

hooradiation

Frankly, any attempts at including sex in video games is always going to be embarrassing. It's always going to be rendered polygons being animated in an awkward and kinda creepy approximation of human intimacy. It is just 'off'.

And outside of finding a way to cross the uncanny valley, it always will be.

gizmo

TheGunns wrote: »

I dont see how they think we might believe that she plays....via kinect..... half naked

honestly, no one will play via kinect :pac:

The amusing thing is, the only area Kinect is used is in the Gunsmith and attached firing range, there's no Kinect stuff in the main game at all.

Retr0gamer

hooradiation wrote: »

Frankly, any attempts at including sex in video games is always going to be embarrassing. It's always going to be rendered polygons being animated in an awkward and kinda creepy approximation of human intimacy. It is just 'off'.

And outside of finding a way to cross the uncanny valley, it always will be.

Only if developers are going to keep pushing for a more realistic look. I think with more stylised art styles it would work. I very much doubt we will ever get out of the uncanny valley and these scenes will forever be as awkward as the ones in Mass Effect and Heavy Rain for more realistic looking games.

There's really no need for sex scenes though I've not played any game that has been narratively enhanced by showing me every gritty detail that goes on. It should be just implied what it's happening and not shown unless the tender moment actually has an impact on story or emotion.

hooradiation

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Only if developers are going to keep pushing for a more realistic look.

Somehow I don't think cartoon-ish depictions of intimacy are going to work either.
Unless you're Japanese.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

There's really no need for sex scenes though I've not played any game that has been narratively enhanced by showing me every gritty detail that goes on. It should be just implied what it's happening and not shown unless the tender moment actually has an impact on story or emotion.

I'm going to throw this out there - maybe that's not what games are good at and we should just stop wasting our time with it.

yeah, yeah, yeah - I know. Story is important and whatever. Fine, if you want to believe that fair enough.
But there is a difference between a functional narrative for why you have to move from point A to point B (because apparently "to get to B" isn't enough) and trying to make it so we care about the why that the rendered avatar has.
Or showing that lump of polygons A loves lump of polygons B.

Films, while being more passive than games, also have the bonus of having real people in them, making it slightly easier to relate to. We relate to people all the damn time, even if we don't know them personally.
Games don't have that, and never will.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

neither do cartoons but Wall-E, Toy story, Grave of the fireflies are all widely regarded as great stories and you can't actually watch them without relating in some way or another with the characters and their situations.

not that I disagree with what you said in the rest of your post mind, just that last bit was.... wrong and a tiny bit silly.

hooradiation

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

neither do cartoons but Wall-E, Toy story, Grave of the fireflies are all widely regarded as great stories and you can't actually watch them without relating in some way or another with the characters and their situations.
not that I disagree with what you said in the rest of your post mind, just that last bit was.... wrong and a tiny bit silly.

I haven't seen Grave of the fireflies and Wall-E bored me so I never finished it, but I don't recall anything to relate to in toy story.

Probably because they're toys.

krudler

hooradiation wrote: »

I haven't seen Grave of the fireflies and Wall-E bored me so I never finished it, but I don't recall anything to relate to in toy story.

Probably because they're toys.

growing up, abandonment, childhood reminiscence? all pretty big themes in Toy Story, which are three of the finest animated films ever made.

hooradiation

krudler wrote: »

growing up, abandonment, childhood reminiscence? all pretty big themes in Toy Story, which are three of the finest animated films ever made.

If you say so, all I remember is not caring about that at all, and a pretty funny Picasso joke.

TheGunns

It doesn't really make any difference to me whether the game is trashy or not, just the same as with a movie. If I enjoy I enjoy it, if i don't I don't.

If you're bothered about how women or anything is shown in a video game then you can't really handle free speech. Developers have a vision just like any of us have making something and they can do with it as they feel fit. If you don't like it don't play it. Don't think you should be too bothered by what some people may like in a video and what gives them an experience that they enjoy.

Just as there is aspects of any game that people don't like and other people will like those aspects but may not like something else. It's all about taste and there's no way that they can make it a perfect fit for each and every one of us individually

pixelburp

TheGunns wrote: »

If you're bothered about how women or anything is shown in a video game then you can't really handle free speech. Developers have a vision just like any of us have making something and they can do with it as they feel fit. If you don't like it don't play it. Don't think you should be too bothered by what some people may like in a video and what gives them an experience that they enjoy.

Just as there is aspects of any game that people don't like and other people will like those aspects but may not like something else. It's all about taste and there's no way that they can make it a perfect fit for each and every one of us individually

Lol, what? Freedom of speech has nothing to do with it, spare the hyperbole; and in any case, Freedom of Speech isn't protection from criticism. Or justification for gaming being an immature ass. It doesn't require pointing out that people have different tastes, think we all worked that one out ourselves, and doesn't negate legitimate criticism

Besides, I think you're missing the point of this debate and tbh you're being naive if you talk of developers having a 'vision'. 90% of the tone and material surrounding a game's content comes from marketing agencies or departments external to the developers (see gizmo's dreadful Ghost Recon video - what 'vision' was this), and these departments' mandates are what drives this immature, trashiness.

For those of us who think gaming can be a little more than tits & trash, it's frustrating to see our favorite hobby portrayed in this wannabe grindhouse fashion.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

of course gaming can be more than tits and trash but it is mainly tits and trash

accept it, find a new hobby or just dont play those **** games that godawful console teenagers play.

Notorious

pixelburp wrote: »

For those of us who think gaming can be a little more than tits & trash, it's frustrating to see our favorite hobby portrayed in this wannabe grindhouse fashion.

I see where you're coming from and I would agree with you, but I just don't think that there is any game ruined for me because of 'tits & trash'. It seems to be much more common in games made today (Mass Effect and the Witcher, to name a few), but I don't think it's been too excessive to ruin a game for me. The scenes in Mass Effect were funny, if almost cringe-worthy at times, but they were short lived and didn't deviate much from the main story - they just developed Shepard's character a little bit more.