ISSF Pistol & Rifle

dev110

Ever since IRLConor gave me a few shots out of his rifle I have got an interest in ISSF and have been watching the current World Cups on youtube.

Only after a few shots (BR) I realised how hard it actually is to line up the sights. I always taught it was like a hunting set up with the post at the end of the rifle. When I looked through the sights and just saw two circles it finally clicked what is involved to be 'great' in this sport.

Just wondering what do the jackets actually do?
Do they give support to minimize movement?
If so why don't they use them the pistol comps?

Also is there ever an novice shoots for this type of shooting?
Money won't allow me to pursue this but would like to give it a go.

Sparks

dev110 wrote: »

Just wondering what do the jackets actually do?
Do they give support to minimize movement?

No, they give support to prevent chronic back injuries. The amount of stiffness in the jacket is strictly regulated and there are testing machines at the larger matches to ensure nobody's pulling a fast one. The problem is the weight of the rifles and the length of the matches; an air rifle can go up to 5.5kg (mine weighs 5.4) and over the course of a match you'll hold it up for the guts of an hour. Without a jacket, that could do your back a fair amount of damage if your technique wasn't perfect every single time or if your core strength was in any way lacking. Since injury as a punishment for imperfection isn't a great way to run a sport, we use the jackets as protective kit.

Prone's an easier position from the back strain viewpoint, but the rifles are even heavier (up to 8kg) which means it evens out - you'd just strain and damage different bits of your back.

If so why don't they use them the pistol comps?

Pistols don't weigh enough to give you a chronic injury. Simple as that, really.

Also is there ever an novice shoots for this type of shooting?

Yup, every single event in Ireland has novices at it, and there are classes for different skill levels so you compete against peers. (There's no classes once you go onto the international circuit, mind - but you could be at the sport for a few years before you got to that stage).

Money won't allow me to pursue this but would like to give it a go.

Go to the next club match and ask the club ahead of time if you could use club equipment.
Also, just because your rifle's not a Bleiker doesn't mean you can't use it. A CZ might not be competitive against the top shooters, but if you can get a set of borrowed aperture sights on it, you can use it (you just load it one round at a time).

And don't forget that just because it's an ISSF rifle, it doesn't mean it's expensive. You see second-hand Vickers and BSA martini-action rifles going for a song in the UK fairly often - for prices less than a new CZ quite a lot of the time, and so long as the barrel isn't completely shot out, those will do you right up to national level in smallbore ISSF shooting.

dev110

Sparks wrote: »

No, they give support to prevent chronic back injuries. The amount of stiffness in the jacket is strictly regulated and there are testing machines at the larger matches to ensure nobody's pulling a fast one. The problem is the weight of the rifles and the length of the matches; an air rifle can go up to 5.5kg (mine weighs 5.4) and over the course of a match you'll hold it up for the guts of an hour. Without a jacket, that could do your back a fair amount of damage if your technique wasn't perfect every single time or if your core strength was in any way lacking. Since injury as a punishment for imperfection isn't a great way to run a sport, we use the jackets as protective kit.

Prone's an easier position from the back strain viewpoint, but the rifles are even heavier (up to 8kg) which means it evens out - you'd just strain and damage different bits of your back.

Ah that makes sense. How exactly do they give you support? Are they fitted to a specific person? Sorry for the stupid questions

Yup, every single event in Ireland has novices at it, and there are classes for different skill levels so you compete against peers. (There's no classes once you go onto the international circuit, mind - but you could be at the sport for a few years before you got to that stage).

Go to the next club match and ask the club ahead of time if you could use club equipment.
Also, just because your rifle's not a Bleiker doesn't mean you can't use it. A CZ might not be competitive against the top shooters, but if you can get a set of borrowed aperture sights on it, you can use it (you just load it one round at a time).

And don't forget that just because it's an ISSF rifle, it doesn't mean it's expensive. You see second-hand Vickers and BSA martini-action rifles going for a song in the UK fairly often - for prices less than a new CZ quite a lot of the time, and so long as the barrel isn't completely shot out, those will do you right up to national level in smallbore ISSF shooting.

I will have to keep an eye out for a competition and give it a bash and then decide if it is something I would like to get into. Have you a list of a few websites to keep an eye on or forums that I could learn a few things on like position etc?

It wasn't me!

They give support by being a little bit stiff around the base of the back and the key areas to offset against the strain of the rifle weight. My gun's up around 7kg, and shooting that standing the other day reminded me how much I need to work on my core strength! I'll be around the range tomorrow and sunday if you want to have a chat about it in person.

dev110

The Midlands or in Dub?

Sparks

dev110 wrote: »

Ah that makes sense. How exactly do they give you support? Are they fitted to a specific person? Sorry for the stupid questions

They're not stupid questions.
The jackets come in both off-the-rack standard sizes and tailor-made to the shooter. The latter are more expensive, give better results and tend to be what you find at the higher levels. The former are perfectly find if they fit you well enough

Basicly, the jacket being tight means that the weight of the rifle is spread out across the shoulders and back instead of being concentrated in one place.

I will have to keep an eye out for a competition and give it a bash and then decide if it is something I would like to get into. Have you a list of a few websites to keep an eye on or forums that I could learn a few things on like position etc?

TargetShooting.ie is the NTSA's website, they have the competitions calendar up there; and there's this forum
There's also targettalk.com but they're more american in tone. Good information there though.
But your best bet would be to turn up and ask one of the coaches to show you how to do it; it's a lot easier to show than to explain in a book

dev110

Are the jackets expensive? Or is it the same with everything, you get what you pay for?

I presume prone would be the easiest to start with. Is there any set position for prone or do you just get comfortable and try get the most support you can from your arms on the ground?

It wasn't me!

I'll be in Midlands. As regard clothing, yeah, you kinda get what you pay for. If you're a pretty standard size, then an off the peg jacket will probably fit pretty well, but if not, made to measure is worth every cent extra.

Prone would be the easiest position to start getting good at, but realistically, if you want to get very good and minimise your entry costs, while maximising your competition exposure, air rifle is the way to go. Would mean a ramble to Wilkinstown for you I guess but your ammo costs are negligible, you learn the least stable position right off (meaning assembling the others is much easier when you decide to move to smallbore prone and three-positions) and you'll have a serious mastery of aiming and triggering by the time you move on to any of the cartridge rifle stuff. When you can get 5,000 pellets for less than a hundred quid it's kinda hard to argue! It's also cheaper in terms of the rifles to get into it. You'd have a few extra bits and pieces required but realistically, it's the cheap entry point, and the best from a development point of view.

dev110

I'll be up there tomorrow any way so can have a chat about it and might get you out to 800 or that too

I was thinking the same with the air rifle but with the licensing I would be better off getting a .22 and save changing in the future. The .22 would be easy enough run as I am used to CF rifles now so €5-€10 per 50 is easy to take.

I have a nice bit to think about now.

Sparks

dev110 wrote: »

Are the jackets expensive? Or is it the same with everything, you get what you pay for?

Pretty much. The last trip abroad, I was wearing a new jacket I'd bought as a stopgap because the old one was well past it's lifespan and I didn't want to buy a new custom one just then. Intershoot sent down a few to try on and the one I bought cost around 200 euro or so, and it was good enough to hit the MQS with. So while you can pay 2700 euro for a top-of-the-line custom-made synthetic suit, you don't need to do that on day one

I presume prone would be the easiest to start with. Is there any set position for prone or do you just get comfortable and try get the most support you can from your arms on the ground?

Well, prone's the easiest to start plinking with; and if you just wanted to go to a match and take part to see, prone smallbore would be the way to go I think. Standing air rifle is something you'd want to build up to if you've never shot a match standing before. But when we take in complete newbies in WTSC, we start them shooting air rifle off the bench while sitting down, for at least the first few lessons - that way they can figure out the sights and the trigger and get used to them before they also have to start worrying about balance.

As to which is the best, well IWM is right, air rifle is the cheapest to run with (and it's my personal favorite and has been for a few years now, so I'm biased); but if you already have a smallbore rifle that you can fit a set of borrowed sights to, I'd actually recommend going with that at a match as the cheapest way of getting a taste for it.

dev110

Thanks Sparks & IWM.
I think I will look into this in the future when money frees up.
Have a lot of reading to do and learn what I can.

It wasn't me!

As I say, I'll be down shooting standing and kneeling tomorrow so swing over and have a chat. There'll be a match in a week and a half down there so might be able to sort something out in time.

fish slapped

IWM I'll be in midland's as well, so if you fancy the 1000 yard, we can sort ya out, since you enjoyed the 300 last Sunday.

FS

It wasn't me!

fish slapped wrote: »

IWM I'll be in midland's as well, so if you fancy the 1000 yard, we can sort ya out, since you enjoyed the 300 last Sunday.

FS

Hmm, I get to blather on about the shooting I do and then go do some more? I fail to see any down side!

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

You see second-hand Vickers and BSA martini-action rifles going for a song in the UK fairly often - for prices less than a new CZ quite a lot of the time, and so long as the barrel isn't completely shot out, those will do you right up to national level in smallbore ISSF shooting.

I have a pair of left and right hand 1957 and a 1962-made BSA International MkII rifles that were respectively a club rifle and the personal rifle of a regional champion [many times]. Both might have had at least ten gazillion rounds down them - in fact, it's not possible to say how many.

Shooting the cheapest GECO standard ammunition - outdoors at 50m - both of these old guns will happily make a single raggedy 5-shot hole if you do your bit.

The 1957 gun - complete with a left-hand P-H diopter sight and tunnel foresight, AND a complete Al Freeland/Unertl POSA tube sight, cost me £55 about five years back.

The later gun, which has a custom-made laminated prone stock [made by the long-time owner], cost me £65.

There ARE bargains to be had over here- and they CAN be made available over in Ireland, too, if you know who to ax.

tac