Tha Nature of Hell

Morbert

Inspired by the video in another thread. I'm curious as to what understanding of Hell most Christians hold. The three options above are the concepts I am most familiar with.

Run_to_da_hills

The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of evidence that Hell is a literal and eternal place of torment, where those who die in their sins without Jesus Christ are punished in flaming fire and vengeance by God

"The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:17)

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Revelation 21:8

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night" Revelation 14:11

.

Morbert

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of evidence that Hell is a literal and eternal place of torment, where those who die in their sins without Jesus Christ are punished in flaming fire and vengeance by God

"The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:17)

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Revelation 21:8

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night" Revelation 14:11

.

I have a follow-up question that, I admit, is slightly rhetorical. Do you believe God's love for you is stronger than, say, the love between a parent and child?

Run_to_da_hills

Morbert wrote: »

I have a follow-up question that, I admit, is slightly rhetorical. Do you believe God's love for you is stronger than, say, the love between a parent and child?

Yes, would a parent send his son too come to earth and die on a cross for you?

That's how much he loves you.

Morbert

This is a discussion I've had before, so I am treading old ground a little. I had expected option #2 to be the more popular choice.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Yes, would a parent send his son too come to earth and die on a cross for you?

That's how much he loves you.

Surely a parent would not subject their child to everlasting torment though? This is presumably why people like C. S. Lewis suggest that Hell is "locked from the inside"; that the reason God does not save them is because they don't want to leave. Choosing option 1 raises the question of why, as you say, god would commit a great sacrifice out of love, but not offer the gift of grace to people in Hell. It sounds like they would appreciate it the most.

StudentDad

Hell is all around us - on this planet - Whether we see it or not depends on how we live our lives - Hell is man made.

SD

Run_to_da_hills

StudentDad wrote: »

Hell is all around us - on this planet - Whether we see it or not depends on how we live our lives - Hell is man made.

SD

That's true because Satan is the god of this world.

"The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. As a result, they don't see the light of the Good News about Christ's glory. It is Christ who is God's image" 2 Corinthians 4:4

tayto lover

If God knows all things and is almighty then how come he puts us on Earth to test us ?. He surely already knows how we will fare.
If he is all forgiving then why create Hell to punish those of us who die in sin ?

I am beginning to have serious doubts about all this religion stuff. I prefer to treat others like I would like to be treated myself.

HamletOrHecuba

Morbert wrote: »

I have a follow-up question that, I admit, is slightly rhetorical. Do you believe God's love for you is stronger than, say, the love between a parent and child?

The thing is though, as much as the damned want to escape hell do they actually want to enter Heaven? Maybe Heaven would be worse for them than hell?

StudentDad

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

That's true because Satan is the god of this world.

"The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. As a result, they don't see the light of the Good News about Christ's glory. It is Christ who is God's image" 2 Corinthians 4:4

Nope - there is no 'satan' only hominids who like to do evil things. If humanity chose it, there would be no hell.

SD

Zombrex

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Morbert wrote: »

I have a follow-up question that, I admit, is slightly rhetorical. Do you believe God's love for you is stronger than, say, the love between a parent and child?

The thing is though, as much as the damned want to escape hell do they actually want to enter Heaven? Maybe Heaven would be worse for them than hell?

Why would it be worse for them?

Opticom

Morbert wrote: »

This is a discussion I've had before, so I am treading old ground a little. I had expected option #2 to be the more popular choice.

Surely a parent would not subject their child to everlasting torment though? This is presumably why people like C. S. Lewis suggest that Hell is "locked from the inside"; that the reason God does not save them is because they don't want to leave. Choosing option 1 raises the question of why, as you say, god would commit a great sacrifice out of love, but not offer the gift of grace to people in Hell. It sounds like they would appreciate it the most.

Perhaps it could be said that many of us are offered the grace, and, either by our thoughts or by our actions, or both, some of us refuse it. Perhaps most of us do if we are honest about it. The prodigal son comes to mind, perhaps many of us choose never to come back.
My understanding is that a truly loving parent, although they will deeply desire their children to love them back, if they truly love their child, they will not try to 'force' their children to love them. Such love has no real value, nor is it genuine.

kermit_the_dog

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Yes, would a parent send his son too come to earth and die on a cross for you?

That's how much he loves you.

millions of parents saw thier sons go to certain death during WW2 , those young men had none of the certaintys and connections JC had

kermit_the_dog

Opticom wrote: »

Perhaps it could be said that many of us are offered the grace, and, either by our thoughts or by our actions, or both, some of us refuse it. Perhaps most of us do if we are honest about it. The prodigal son comes to mind, perhaps many of us choose never to come back.
My understanding is that a truly loving parent, although they will deeply desire their children to love them back, if they truly love their child, they will not try to 'force' their children to love them. Such love has no real value, nor is it genuine.

people who get a bum deal when it comes to the kind of parents and enviroment they have growing up may become cynical in the way someone who had a " sound of music " upbringing may not

thats why im suspicious of this one size fits all approach the bible takes , i give more licence to a thief in war torn somalia than in beverly hills yet according to the good book ,a thief is a thief

Run_to_da_hills

kermit_the_dog wrote: »

people who get a bum deal when it comes to the kind of parents and enviroment they have growing up may become cynical in the way someone who had a " sound of music " upbringing may not

thats why im suspicious of this one size fits all approach the bible takes , i give more licence to a thief in war torn somalia than in beverly hills yet according to the good book ,a thief is a thief

According to the book, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 3 23.

That would include every man woman and child on the face of this planet irrespective where their place of birth or cultural surroundings. So it wouldn't matter whether a person was a thief or a good living person, they are still damned to hell if they don't repent of their original sin and believe in Christ as their savior.

Lady Chuckles

I'm not sure if I believe in hell

Opticom

kermit_the_dog wrote: »

people who get a bum deal when it comes to the kind of parents and enviroment they have growing up may become cynical in the way someone who had a " sound of music " upbringing may not

thats why im suspicious of this one size fits all approach the bible takes , i give more licence to a thief in war torn somalia than in beverly hills yet according to the good book ,a thief is a thief

I think bible covered this :

“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 19:23-24

"One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:32-43

Captain_Generic

Something I always wondered was: Satan is meant to be pure evil, yet he punishes evil people who end up in hell. Surely these people would be rewarded for their evil ways? Or if Satan does punish them then he is helping God and he can't be truly evil? I must be missing something here

gimmebroadband

The doors of Hell are locked from the inside - C.S. Lewis!

Slav

Morbert wrote: »

The three options above are the concepts I am most familiar with.

Neither option sounds right for me. First two assume that it is possible to wish to leave Hell without defining what does it mean "to leave Hell". The third would be a pure speculation beyond revelation.

Slav

Captain_Generic wrote: »

Satan ... punishes evil people who end up in hell.

^^ Development of the Late Medieval Europe. Mostly unbiblical.

Morbert

Opticom wrote: »

Perhaps it could be said that many of us are offered the grace, and, either by our thoughts or by our actions, or both, some of us refuse it. Perhaps most of us do if we are honest about it. The prodigal son comes to mind, perhaps many of us choose never to come back.
My understanding is that a truly loving parent, although they will deeply desire their children to love them back, if they truly love their child, they will not try to 'force' their children to love them. Such love has no real value, nor is it genuine.

This is why the second option is the only one that makes sense to me. For even if a child of mine didn't love me, I would not lock them in a torture chamber for eternity.

PDN

Captain_Generic wrote: »

Something I always wondered was: Satan is meant to be pure evil, yet he punishes evil people who end up in hell. Surely these people would be rewarded for their evil ways? Or if Satan does punish them then he is helping God and he can't be truly evil? I must be missing something here

You're probably missing an understanding of Christian and biblical teaching. Not sure where you're getting this idea that Satan punishes people in hell?

Sonics2k

PDN wrote: »

You're probably missing an understanding of Christian and biblical teaching. Not sure where you're getting this idea that Satan punishes people in hell?

It's one of the many misconceptions about the idea of Satan and Hell, honestly.

It's probably got a lot to do with the widespread use of Satan themes in various movies, as well the well-known American Evangelical Preacher types who love to throw it around.

As I recall, I had a Priest in Primary School religion (Catholic school at that) class who taught us that Satan did actively punish people in Hell as well.

lmaopml

Hell, is not about punishment, it's about justice, consequence -

It's about 'sin' and the natural consequence of it - That's why it's important to be honest with oneself and also to actually know the wisdom of Christ and how every thought is revealed, to be true as best we can because being honest is important...Christ came to give redemption and mercy to fallen people. That's the offer..He knows every heart, their difficulties..

How could anybody not love Jesus, not see the beauty of the Cross, the continuety of love? If love was personified, who comes to mind?

If there is a God in heaven above than Jesus Christ is none other - and if 'they' do not accept him, how could anybody not see that if there is a God in heaven above that sent some goodness in the form of man, a new covenant, a totally unexpected saviour, baffling - it's not in the form of Jesus Christ, who fulfills and still surpasses in ways that were not expected in the OT, he fulfills them perfectly as a God who lived among us, who knows, understands, is personable, he loves above all, and yet is the voice of the ages too - not popular, not new, but popular and new....

The continouse relationship is perfected in Christ, Scripture is perfected, the word became flesh. If a person doesn't like 'people', or feels seperated, let them find rest and a start in Christ on their path on this pentecost feast day to take the first step to walk with him.

kjw47

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of evidence that Hell is a literal and eternal place of torment, where those who die in their sins without Jesus Christ are punished in flaming fire and vengeance by God

"The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:17)

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Revelation 21:8

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night" Revelation 14:11

.

If one knows God they know an eternal place of torment was not literal.
Deut 32:4 teaches--- All of Gods ways are justice-- justice is represented by a set of scales--- lets apply an eternal place of torment to Gods justice scales---- 70 -90 years of unrepented sin on one side---- trillions x trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc,etc x infinity of never ending years of eternal torment

---

one can easily see that there is no justice in that teaching--thus not the God taught in the bible. The religions that teach that sadistic lie about God know its not truth.

HamletOrHecuba

kjw47 wrote: »

If one knows God they know an eternal place of torment was not literal.
Deut 32:4 teaches--- All of Gods ways are justice-- justice is represented by a set of scales--- lets apply an eternal place of torment to Gods justice scales---- 70 -90 years of unrepented sin on one side---- trillions x trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc,etc x infinity of never ending years of eternal torment

---

one can easily see that there is no justice in that teaching--thus not the God taught in the bible. The religions that teach that sadistic lie about God know its not truth.

Only Eternity is NOT time.

Run_to_da_hills

Satan and those that follow him will be tormented in the lake of fire. with everyone that is condemed to hell I dont think there is going to be anytime for any such "ruler" to punish people. The burning sulphur and the agony is going to keep people busy.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" Revelation 20:10

kjw47

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Satan and those that follow him will be tormented in the lake of fire. with everyone that is condemed to hell I dont think there is going to be anytime for any such "ruler" to punish people. The burning sulphur and the agony is going to keep people busy.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" Revelation 20:10

Fire destroys forever-- Gods word teaches that those who walk the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction.---- Also Hades gets thrown into the lake of fire,along with death.neither one can suffer but can be destroyed forever.

deathbot

lol, whose saying they want to leave? That doesn't make any sense. If God is all loving, and has given us free will, then people can only send themselves to hell not God sending us there. That would violate our freedom. This is why Islam is such a heresy, Allah simply leads some astray, and sends them to hell, and leads others to heaven. So they have no choice in the matter! logically incoherent.

People choose hell when they keep opting for sin again and again and never repent in shame. God gives them what they want.

Morbert

lmaopml wrote: »

Hell, is not about punishment, it's about justice, consequence -

It's about 'sin' and the natural consequence of it - That's why it's important to be honest with oneself and also to actually know the wisdom of Christ and how every thought is revealed, to be true as best we can because being honest is important...Christ came to give redemption and mercy to fallen people. That's the offer..He knows every heart, their difficulties..

How could anybody not love Jesus, not see the beauty of the Cross, the continuety of love? If love was personified, who comes to mind?

If there is a God in heaven above than Jesus Christ is none other - and if 'they' do not accept him, how could anybody not see that if there is a God in heaven above that sent some goodness in the form of man, a new covenant, a totally unexpected saviour, baffling - it's not in the form of Jesus Christ, who fulfills and still surpasses in ways that were not expected in the OT, he fulfills them perfectly as a God who lived among us, who knows, understands, is personable, he loves above all, and yet is the voice of the ages too - not popular, not new, but popular and new....

The continouse relationship is perfected in Christ, Scripture is perfected, the word became flesh. If a person doesn't like 'people', or feels seperated, let them find rest and a start in Christ on their path on this pentecost feast day to take the first step to walk with him.

I don't actually see it as a justice issue. According to Christianity, justice is a concept that comes from God. Instead, it's the juxtaposition of revolutionary ideas about God's relationship with man, and asinine, comic book ideas about torture chambers and eternal "punishment".

Doc Farrell

Interestingly a great deal of the imagery we associate with hell comes directly from Dante.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)
Milton might also have to answer a few questions!

tayto lover

Hell is not having enough to pay your bills and feed your family and the worry that goes with it.
Why would a God who has everything and who is supposed to love us all, especially the sinners, want to punish those same souls ?

tayto lover

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Interestingly a great deal of the imagery we associate with hell comes directly from Dante.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)
Milton might also have to answer a few questions!

Had Dante a Golden Ticket ?
What would he know that other mortals wouldn't ?

Doc Farrell

tayto lover wrote: »

Had Dante a Golden Ticket ?
What would he know that other mortals wouldn't ?

Imagery used in popular culture, he was a poet, give the link a quick click.

kjw47

deathbot wrote: »

lol, whose saying they want to leave? That doesn't make any sense. If God is all loving, and has given us free will, then people can only send themselves to hell not God sending us there. That would violate our freedom. This is why Islam is such a heresy, Allah simply leads some astray, and sends them to hell, and leads others to heaven. So they have no choice in the matter! logically incoherent.

People choose hell when they keep opting for sin again and again and never repent in shame. God gives them what they want.

One would have to gain eternal life if one was sentenced to eternal punishment--Gods word teaches this truth-- the road leading to life( eternal) is cramped, few will find it--Broad and spacious the path leading to destruction. eternal destruction is the exact opposite of eternal life.

Opticom

Morbert wrote: »

This is why the second option is the only one that makes sense to me. For even if a child of mine didn't love me, I would not lock them in a torture chamber for eternity.

Why did God allow bad things such as hell to come into being ? - He didn't.

God's creation of free will beings must allow for the possibilty of rejecting God completely.

Man's sin, not God, brings suffering, and hell, into existance.
The results of greed, pride, egotism, and hunger for power. Things that do not have any use for people. Man made suffering and hell, are the fruits of sin.

Many of us would like to live in our favorite sins and answer to no one else. We know that if we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior that God will want us to change our lives, and we might have to give up some of our autonomy, and some of our so called pleasures.

We don't know all the metaphorical or otherwise fire and other self chosen punishments Hell might contain, but the chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

In the end the only way for God to resolve the situation of hell would be to disregard the free choice of those who have rejected him, and force them into his presence, or to end their existance.

We are left ultimately with the mysterious reality of hell and can only conclude that, in the end ''hell', and whatever it is, has to be.

There is no one more merciful than God, but we have to ask for his mercy, be merciful to others, and completely trust in Jesus Christ.

Morbert

Opticom wrote: »

Why did God allow bad things such as hell to come into being ? - He didn't.

God's creation of free will beings must allow for the possibilty of rejecting God completely.

Man's sin, not God, brings suffering, and hell, into existance.
The results of greed, pride, egotism, and hunger for power. Things that do not have any use for people. Man made suffering and hell, are the fruits of sin.

Many of us would like to live in our favorite sins and answer to no one else. We know that if we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior that God will want us to change our lives, and we might have to give up some of our autonomy, and some of our so called pleasures.

We don't know all the metaphorical or otherwise fire and other self chosen punishments Hell might contain, but the chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

In the end the only way for God to resolve the situation of hell would be to disregard the free choice of those who have rejected him, and force them into his presence, or to end their existance.

We are left ultimately with the mysterious reality of hell and can only conclude that, in the end ''hell', and whatever it is, has to be.

There is no one more merciful than God, but we have to ask for his mercy, be merciful to others, and completely trust in Jesus Christ.

This sounds like you selected option two?

Opticom

Morbert wrote: »

This sounds like you selected option two?

None of the options really fit

Morbert

Opticom wrote: »

None of the options really fit

Your previous post was very much in line with the second option.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vggzqXzEvZ0

Opticom

Morbert wrote: »

Your previous post was very much in line with the second option

Hell as the logical consequence of the soul using its free will to reject union with God. It is compatible with God's justice and mercy because God will not interfere with the soul's free choice. Once chosen for eternity it’s a state of no return, hell is choosing eternal seperation from God, whether we then want to leave or stay in that state in the afterlife makes no difference. Only God can bring eternal peace and relief to our hearts.

A better poll choice would have been :

People are in hell because of their own choices and sins
People are in hell, not because of their own choices and sins, but because God wants them there.

If someone wants out of hell, do you think the others there will let them out ?

Now is the time of God's mercy, patience, and understanding, and then we will have our judgement.
I'm not sure that any mortal man on earth can have a full understaning of eternal hell, I do know one thing, I don't want anyone to go there, but many of us will, and it will be through our own words, choices, actions and deeds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMW2kHHGPa8

Hell should not be hidden away, but rather than focussing on it, we should focus on loving one another, and works of mercy for the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the homeless, the imprisoned, the afflicted etc. and by doing so we will obtain mercy for our own shortcomings. "All have sinned."

Run_to_da_hills

Whole nations are destined to hell.

"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God". Psalm 9:17

Morbert

Opticom wrote: »

Hell as the logical consequence of the soul using its free will to reject union with God. It is compatible with God's justice and mercy because God will not interfere with the soul's free choice. Once chosen for eternity it’s a state of no return, hell is choosing eternal seperation from God, whether we then want to leave or stay in that state in the afterlife makes no difference. Only God can bring eternal peace and relief to our hearts.

A better poll choice would have been :

People are in hell because of their own choices and sins
People are in hell, not because of their own choices and sins, but because God wants them there.

If someone wants out of hell, do you think the others there will let them out ?

Now is the time of God's mercy, patience, and understanding, and then we will have our judgement.
I'm not sure that any mortal man on earth can have a full understaning of eternal hell, I do know one thing, I don't want anyone to go there, but many of us will, and it will be through our own words, choices, actions and deeds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMW2kHHGPa8

Hell should not be hidden away, but rather than focussing on it, we should focus on loving one another, and works of mercy for the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the homeless, the imprisoned, the afflicted etc. and by doing so we will obtain mercy for our own shortcomings. "All have sinned."

The problem with this is everyone has already chosen the path to Hell. That's why God sent Jesus to receive the wages of our choices, so that we wouldn't have to suffer the consequences. The lesson seems clear, and the notion that God would turn a deaf ear to anyone seems to contradict that lesson.

philologos

Morbert wrote: »

The problem with this is everyone has already chosen the path to Hell. That's why God sent Jesus to receive the wages of our choices, so that we wouldn't have to suffer the consequences. The lesson seems clear, and the notion that God would turn a deaf ear to anyone seems to contradict that lesson.

Our wretched human selfishness can get in the way of the big picture. That is that there is a God who loves us, that is there is a God who knows us far better than we know ourselves. That is there is a God who longs for us to know Him. There is a God who cares for us so deeply that He sent His Son Jesus into the world, to ultimately put an end to Satan and His word.

God shows us most clearly through Jesus, that we might be making the wrong decision. God shows us most clearly through Jesus, that we have gone so far from the world that He created. God shows us most clearly through Jesus, that we have hearts of stone. God shows us most clearly through Jesus, just how much we need a Saviour. How fallen this world is. How evil man's heart is.

Jesus is a wakeup call. It's not a case that we have made the decision, it's that we're so led by selfishness rebellion and self-consumed idolatry that we have rejected God.

In the modern twenty-first century you don't have all that many people prostrating themselves before idols of gold or silver. You do have plenty of people worshipping other idols though. The god of me, the god of lust, the god of money, the god of material, the god of alcohol, the god of "living in the here and now". The gods of greed, the gods of hate, the gods of gluttony, the gods of expedience. The gods that we erect for ourselves in the twenty first century, are just as blasphemous as the idols that the pagans used to worship.

And most of all, God cares.

antiskeptic

Morbert wrote: »

The problem with this is everyone has already chosen the path to Hell...

The Fall indicates that Adam's offspring were born with their natures compass already set in the direction of Hell. And this without their choosing to have compass set so.

The choice seems to revolve around whether a person wills to escape that path or whether they continue on their way.

Morbert

antiskeptic wrote: »

The Fall indicates that Adam's offspring were born with their natures compass already set in the direction of Hell. And this without their choosing to have compass set so.

The choice seems to revolve around whether a person wills to escape that path or whether they continue on their way.

I think this (along with philologos's post) merely reiterates a postion, rather than showing how it is consistent with God, as portrayed in the Bible.

The person in Hell is still a human being, presumably still capable of emotions like regret, fear, love Etc. A God who leaves a human being in a state of Hell, against their will, is not the God portrayed in the Bible.

Fanny Cradock

Isn't it fairly standard theology amongst some folks that God gives people exactly whet they want and will want in perpetuity? And this goes for heaven or hell.

HamletOrHecuba

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Isn't it fairly standard theology amongst some folks that God gives people exactly whet they want and will want in perpetuity? And this goes for heaven or hell.

No-this is the first time I have heard of anyone wanting eternal torment.

philologos

It's entirely Biblical that man lives once and then there is judgement, and that judgement is final. It determines our ultimate destiny. A God who judges is entirely Biblical.

Zombrex

philologos wrote: »

It's entirely Biblical that man lives once and then there is judgement, and that judgement is final. It determines our ultimate destiny. A God who judges is entirely Biblical.

Judging isn't the issue. Judging is simply deciding that what you did was right or wrong.

The issue is the punishment that follows the judgement. You can see this even in our court system, where the first thing decided is whether a person is guilty or not and then, sometimes days later, the person is sentences.

The issue is God punishing people with eternal torture as punishment for what they did within a finite time on Earth.

There is a contradiction between a God who would decide to construct an eternal torture realm where he sends people to be punished for sinning and a God who would desire so much that we didn't go there and go to great lengths to help us avoid going there by sending his son to die on the cross for us.

The problem Christians seem to have with not understanding this point is that you guys all seem to just assume hell is what it is, that it is a give it is as it is, rather than something God decided would be as it is.

Why would God construct hell in the first place if he didn't want anyone to go there (something he demonstrates through Jesus)?

It can't be that he has to send people to hell, God doesn't have to do anything. Remember judgement is separate to punishment. Even if we assume God has to judge people for sin, it doesn't follow that he has to select hell as the punishment, even if he judges your guilty of sin, particularly when he doesn't want to select hell as punishment.

And it can't be that if he doesn't send people to hell he has to let them into heaven either. That is simply limited thinking, assuming that because there is a hell and heaven there can only be a hell and heaven. Again God can make what ever he likes, there is no requirement that this is the only way it can be.

PDN

Zombrex wrote: »

And it can't be that if he doesn't send people to hell he has to let them into heaven either. That is simply limited thinking, assuming that because there is a hell and heaven there can only be a hell and heaven. Again God can make what ever he likes, there is no requirement that this is the only way it can be.

I don't think that is true.

Many Christians define hell as an absence of God's presence (I know you atheists much prefer the concept of a torture chamber). Heaven, on the contrary, is to be in God's presence.

It is not unreasonable or contradictory, therefore, to argue that we either end up in God's presence (heaven) or out of His presence (hell).

There is a contradiction between a God who would decide to construct an eternal torture realm where he sends people to be punished for sinning and a God who would desire so much that we didn't go there and go to great lengths to help us avoid going there by sending his son to die on the cross for us.

The problem Christians seem to have with not understanding this point is that you guys all seem to just assume hell is what it is, that it is a give it is as it is, rather than something God decided would be as it is.

There is no contradiction between a God who desires for everyone to be saved and to come into His presence, and a God who allowed for the possibility that people might want to remain outside of His presence.

Your problem, once again, is that you want to cling to your concept of a medieval torture chamber. Therefore you are not positing a contradiction in the Christian position per se, but simply a contradiction among those Christians who subscribe to the view of a medieval torture chamber.