Sinn Fein appealing to the lowest common denominator

smash

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

And what have FF/FG being doing? Yes that's right, submitting. Our version of change involves the replacement of FF with FG. Yet there is absolutely no difference between either. I don't particularly give a shít about Sinn Fein to be honest. But a pack of dogs would do a better job running the country, than the meek shower of balless fúckwits currently in post.

What has anything you just said, got to do with the people that SF target with their campaigning?

Morlar

LordSutch wrote: »

Dear Lord, can you imagine Gerry Adams or Mary Lou as Taoiseach/Tánaiste

Now there's two scary thoughts 4 starters, it just aint goin to happen, and it wont happen - The prospect is just too scary.

I can see how it could be the mother of all nightmares for the less progressive loyalists alright.

Sleepy

fishy fishy wrote: »

listen lads the fact is the SF is on the rise. They are the second biggest party in Ireland now. People have finally copped on and can see what is being done to the country to ensure that the FF/FG have their pockets lined.

I know some of you can't handle it - but tough. Get used to is. Ye' don't seem to bothered about the other party's throwing away everything and making us pay up. maybe ye were part of the gravy train, maybe not.

The 31st Dail has 14 Sinn Fein TD's. This makes them the 4th largest party with less than 20% the numbers of the largest (Fine Gael), under half the numbers of the second largest (Labour) and at roughly 75% of the third largest (Fianna Fail who happened to be the party most responsible for the economic climate Ireland is currently in).

You can quote whatever polls you like and it won't change the *FACT* that Sinn Fein are a minority party in Dail Eireann. While they may continue to gain traction amongst the uneducated welfare class, that class represents less than 10/15% of our population and I can't see the middle classes ever voting for someone who's policies would result in even those of us earning modest salaries being taxed into oblivion.

Its time now for the Shinners to shine - hey, maybe it won't be too bad. Maybe Nelson Mandela will come over to visit Gerry and ye can all climb over each other to shake his hand. :D

Think I might take a weekend trip to Killarney.

Enjoy your buzz words in the meantime and remember if it gets too much ye can "talk to joe".

How exactly are the Shinners going to shine?

Morlar

Sleepy wrote: »

The 31st Dail has 14 Sinn Fein TD's. This makes them the 4th largest party with less than 20% the numbers of the largest (Fine Gael), under half the numbers of the second largest (Labour) and at roughly 75% of the third largest (Fianna Fail who happened to be the party most responsible for the economic climate Ireland is currently in).

You can quote whatever polls you like and it won't change the *FACT* that Sinn Fein are a minority party in Dail Eireann. While they may continue to gain traction amongst the uneducated welfare class, that class represents less than 10/15% of our population and I can't see the middle classes ever voting for someone who's policies would result in even those of us earning modest salaries being taxed into oblivion.



How exactly are the Shinners going to shine?

All recent polls I have seen have SF the 2nd biggest party in the state.

You (along with the rest of the anti-SF crowd) can try to avoid acknowledging that but polls are the standard, universally accepted way to gauge the political landscape (in between general elections), & all the most recent ones I have seen show SF as the 2nd biggest party in the state.

forfuxsake

Sleepy wrote: »

The 31st Dail has 14 Sinn Fein TD's. This makes them the 4th largest party with less than 20% the numbers of the largest (Fine Gael), under half the numbers of the second largest (Labour) and at roughly 75% of the third largest (Fianna Fail who happened to be the party most responsible for the economic climate Ireland is currently in).

You can quote whatever polls you like and it won't change the *FACT* that Sinn Fein are a minority party in Dail Eireann. While they may continue to gain traction amongst the uneducated welfare class, that class represents less than 10/15% of our population and I can't see the middle classes ever voting for someone who's policies would result in even those of us earning modest salaries being taxed into oblivion.



How exactly are the Shinners going to shine?

Who are you to call anyone else uneducated?

And as for your comments, that's what the SDLP thought in the North. Until Sinn Fein took their middle class vote from them.

LordSutch

Morlar wrote: »

I can see how it could be the mother of all nightmares for the less progressive loyalists alright.

Forget Loyalists and Northern Ireland for a moment, I am talking about the man in the street down here! Fine Gael supporters, Fianna Fail supporters, Labour supprters, these would be the people to suffer the nightmare if Adams or Mary Lou became Taoiseach or Tánaiste.

Ruralyoke

Morlar wrote: »

All recent polls I have seen have SF the 2nd biggest party in the state.

I can guarantee you they have peaked.

This is as popular as they will ever be and they can only wane. It was a popularity based on disillusion with other parties, easily influenced and naive floating voters and motivated staunch republicans.

The republicans will always be there to some extent and the other two will cop themselves on, given time.

The SF election machine is very well organised and hard working - I'll give them that but the job is done. Maxed out.

Morlar

LordSutch wrote: »

Forget Loyalists and Northern Ireland for a moment, I am talking about the man in the street down here! Fine Gael supporters, Fianna Fail supporters, Labour supprters, these would be the people to suffer the nightmare if Adams or Mary Lou became Taoiseach or Tánaiste.

I am not sure Gerry Adams would be taoiseach in a coalition govt but if he were I doubt he could do worse than Brian Cowen or Enda Kenny (who have both been 'nightmare' enough for me).

Morlar

Ruralyoke wrote: »

I can guarantee you they have peaked.

No offence, but remind me again why I should take the word of an internet randomer on that ?

Ruralyoke

Morlar wrote: »

No offence, but remind me again why I should take the word of an internet randomer on that ?

So do you disagree then?

smash

Morlar wrote: »

All recent polls I have seen have SF the 2nd biggest party in the state.

you're confusing speculative popularity with the size of their party. They don't have enough TD's to run a government on their own and most other parties would not go into coalition with them.

Morlar

Ruralyoke wrote: »

So do you disagree then?

You've yet to establish why anyone should agree with your assessment. This reminds me of a Gary Larson cartoon where the old man on the porch says 'my elbow feels a funny - bad storms a comin'. In other words you are putting forward your gut feelings with nothing to support it.

Morlar

smash wrote: »

you're confusing speculative popularity with the size of their party. They don't have enough TD's to run a government on their own and most other parties would not go into coalition with them.

No I am not, you are attempting to undermine and dismiss their support on the supposed basis that it's 'speculative'. As to who will and who won't go into coalition with them, it's not uncommon for parties to say they will not go into a coalition with party x - then after the election do just that. It's in their interests to try to maximise their own support, that doesn't mean they wont actually go into a coalition.

Ruralyoke

Morlar, the praragraph following the section you have quoted is fairly unambiguous.

If you are focusing on the word "guarantee" it's merely a turn of phrase. Obviously.

Replace with "I believe" if you like.

smash

Morlar wrote: »

No I am not, you are attempting to undermine and dismiss their support on the supposed basis that it's 'speculative'.

All opinion polls are speculative.

Morlar

smash wrote: »

All opinion polls are speculative.

I think the term clutching at straws springs to mind.

I think the lowest common denominator in relation to this thread is the bizarre & convoluted lengths some on the 'Anti-SF' or 'anybody but SF' side of this discussion are prepared to go to. It's really quite transparent imo.

Show Time

I have no problem with Sinn Fein and would like to see the party in power to see how they would stand up to the fourth Reich of Europe.

smash

Morlar wrote: »

I think the term clutching at straws springs to mind.

I think the lowest common denominator in relation to this thread is the bizarre & convoluted lengths some on the 'Anti-SF' or 'anybody but SF' side of this discussion are prepared to go to. It's really quite transparent imo.

Are you serious? Any comment from SF supporters has been clutching at straws and throwing out general comments about how it's their day to shine and other such BS without ANY form of economic plan to help the country in any shape or form.

Climber

They appeal to the lowest common denominator, the "ordinary" man, the common man.

It sounds like they appeal to Irish people :rolleyes:

PogMoThoin

smash wrote: »

Are you serious? Any comment from SF supporters has been clutching at straws and throwing out general comments about how it's their day to shine and other such BS without ANY form of economic plan to help the country in any shape or form.

Enda Kenny has a plan? I'd love to hear it. To me it looks like more of the same

AEDIC

Climber wrote: »

They appeal to the lowest common denominator, the "ordinary" man, the common man.

It sounds like they appeal to Irish people :rolleyes:

Correction - it sounds like they appeal to 17 - 20% of the Irish people depending on which 'Opinion' Poll you subscribe to.

smash

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Enda Kenny has a plan? I'd love to hear it. To me it looks like more of the same

I'd love to hear it too. But as mentioned previously we a re tied into a bailout programme and that will not change even if the shinners get in.

Crooked Jack

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Whatever about the economic literacy of the incumbent government the thought of Sinn Fein running the show scares me.

Preaching one thing in the South while doing the opposite in the North.

This is one of those myths constantly trotted out by parties in the south and the SDLP.
Sinn Fein's policies are the same all over Ireland. They are not overseeing cuts in the north, Stormont is (sadly) a totally different set up to the Dail, they have little to no control over fiscal matters. Fiscal responsibility is however something Sinn Fein campaign for vigorously in the north, precisely so they can introduce the type of economic policies they espouse north and south.
Claiming Sinn Fein "preach one thing in the south and do the opposite in the north," is either willfully disingenuous or displays an incredible level of ignorance about the party and the institutions on this island.

Sergeant

Show Time wrote: »

I have no problem with Sinn Fein and would like to see the party in power to see how they would stand up to the fourth Reich of Europe.

With the proud drum of rebellion ringing in our ears, and the spirit of the brave soldiers of 1916 in our hearts. Gushing with nationalistic pride as we tell those pesky Germans to take their money and go.

We'll then hit the forests of Wicklow and harvest the money trees, and enjoy a socialist paradise where there are no difficult decisions to be made, no fiscal adjustments, and no greedy capitalists coming in here to the Emerald Isle to exploit our workers and take advantage of our corporation tax rate.

I really cannot wait.

Happy Monday

Crooked Jack wrote: »

This is one of those myths constantly trotted out by parties in the south and the SDLP.
Sinn Fein's policies are the same all over Ireland. They are not overseeing cuts in the north, Stormont is (sadly) a totally different set up to the Dail, they have little to no control over fiscal matters. Fiscal responsibility is however something Sinn Fein campaign for vigorously in the north, precisely so they can introduce the type of economic policies they espouse north and south.
Claiming Sinn Fein "preach one thing in the south and do the opposite in the north," is either willfully disingenuous or displays an incredible level of ignorance about the party and the institutions on this island.

They don't control spending in the North.
The British government does.
The Irish government has tax raising and spending powers.

Crooked Jack

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Not quite the same as bombing people in the North (and South) for decades.

wait. So killing people in 1920 is somehow different from or better than killing people in 1970? How? What a load of nonsense. Unless you vote Greens practically every party on this island has its origins in violence.

paddyandy

There is a very noticeable absence of debate and dissent among the Shinners .All behind closed doors .The Hymn Sheet must have clear Voices and in accord .Suspicious .

Ruralyoke

Crooked Jack wrote: »

...Sinn Fein's policies are the same all over Ireland. They are not overseeing cuts in the north...

So, just to be absolutely clear, are you claiming that SF in Northern Ireland did not approve of cuts (which include education) to the tune of £4 billion?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/sam-smyth-sfs-policy-is-hypocrisy-on-both-sides-of-border-3107921.html

http://www.johnomahony.ie/?p=1799

http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2012/sinn-fein-is-closing-scho/index.xml

Sleepy

Morlar wrote: »

All recent polls I have seen have SF the 2nd biggest party in the state.

You (along with the rest of the anti-SF crowd) can try to avoid acknowledging that but polls are the standard, universally accepted way to gauge the political landscape (in between general elections), & all the most recent ones I have seen show SF as the 2nd biggest party in the state.

A poll is a poll, an election is what matters. Look at the demographic of the average person who'll answer Sinn Fein to a pollster and you'll find many of them won't even be registered to vote. Seats are what matter, though if Sinn Fein want to think otherwise, that's no bad thing for their opponents.

forfuxsake wrote: »

Who are you to call anyone else uneducated?

Someone with a B.Comm and a post-grad diploma. I spent a total of 4 years studying economics at Leaving Cert and Undergraduate level. A typo on an internet forum doesn't undermine that.

Obviously, there are those out there that are far more qualified than me in the area of economics but I don't see many of them representing or supporting Sinn Fein. The ad in the OP clearly demonstrates the sort of support the party are targeting: the disaffected, uneducated portion of society who would give someone a vote (or at least say the will to a pollster ) because Sinn Fein are being vocal about supporting the national soccer team (as if the other parties want to see them crash out in the first round :rolleyes:).

And as for your comments, that's what the SDLP thought in the North. Until Sinn Fein took their middle class vote from them.

Different country, different political environment and, based on what we've seen of their differing policies in the two countries, different Sinn Fein tbh.

Climber

The North spends more than it raises in taxes.

Instead of borrowing to fund the difference, the tax payers of Britain fund the difference.

This is a well known fact and when it is put to any Shinner they tend to be a little sheepish in their responses.

Sleepy

Crooked Jack wrote: »

wait. So killing people in 1920 is somehow different from or better than killing people in 1970? How? What a load of nonsense. Unless you vote Greens practically every party on this island has its origins in violence.

As far I can remember from the history I've read, Collins and DeValera tended to target soldiers rather than innocent civilians. There's also the small matter of the foundation of the Irish state in the meantime, though maybe you're part of the Republican movement that doesn't recognise the government Sinn Fein wish to play a part in these days?

swimming in a sea

Climber wrote: »

The North spends more than it raises in taxes.

Instead of borrowing to fund the difference, the tax payers of Britain fund the difference.

This is a well known fact and when it is put to any Shinner they tend to be a little sheepish in their responses.

When this is put to them before I've heard them say they don't have tax raising powers, as if this would make a difference. Unless they would introduce a knee cap tax, a yearly £100 tax to keep your knee caps in place. That would raise a few pound.

Crooked Jack

Ruralyoke wrote: »

So, just to be absolutely clear, are you claiming that SF in Northern Ireland did not approve of cuts (which include education) to the tune of £4 billion?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/sam-smyth-sfs-policy-is-hypocrisy-on-both-sides-of-border-3107921.html

http://www.johnomahony.ie/?p=1799

http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2012/sinn-fein-is-closing-scho/index.xml

That's exactly what I'm saying. The block grant comes in from Westminster and Stormont has no control over how much it is. So if cameron says "you get £4bn less," how is that Sinn Fein's fault.
Stormont's Finance dept decide how it is divvied up but that is currently in the hands of the DUP.
When the north gains fiscal autonomy then you can begin to compare Sinn Fein's policies and actions north and south. As I said, until then it's either disingenuous or ignorant.
Nice sources by the way, two Fine Gael websites and an Indo opinion piece.

donvito99

Did anyone else see SF's party-political broadcast last night? BBC2 I think.



My favourite part was when Martin Mc Guinness' eyes were darting from one side of the card behind the camera he was reading to the other.

Crooked Jack

swimming in a sea wrote: »

When this is put to them before I've heard them say they don't have tax raising powers, as if this would make a difference. Unless they would introduce a knee cap tax, a yearly £100 tax to keep your knee caps in place. That would raise a few pound.

ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.... typical reaction of the anti SF crowd, people who will always be anti-Sinn Fein no matter what they say or do.
Ask a question, Sinn Fein answers it, they dont get the response they wanted so they resort to this tiresome kneecap/bombing/shooting schtick.
How much longer do you think that stuff is going to work for. There is a new generation of voters coming through who are judging parties on their policies and their actions, not the prejudices they were brought up with.
Better change your tune.

Ruralyoke

Crooked Jack wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm saying. The block grant comes in from Westminster and Stormont has no control over how much it is. So if cameron says "you get £4bn less," how is that Sinn Fein's fault.

Approve is the operative word here. Approve.

I am well aware that Stormonts hands are tied in many ways but when and where were SF up in arms about this then? Never heard a peep out of them. Their approval was required and was seemingly easily given.

Nice sources by the way, two Fine Gael websites and an Indo opinion piece.

Knew you'd say that of course - random search results. There are dozens, scores of others. You can check yourself.

I guess all these sites/journalists had better watch out then eh?

SF will be giving out stink about all that disingenuous commentary won't they?

...won't they?

Oh. Hasn't really happened though has it. Why is that? :rolleyes:

Happy Monday

Ruralyoke wrote: »

So, just to be absolutely clear, are you claiming that SF in Northern Ireland did not approve of cuts (which include education) to the tune of £4 billion?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/sam-smyth-sfs-policy-is-hypocrisy-on-both-sides-of-border-3107921.html

http://www.johnomahony.ie/?p=1799

http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2012/sinn-fein-is-closing-scho/index.xml

You are missing the point.
The UK government calls the shots in NI.
The Irish government calls the shots down here.
FG has the power to raise taxes and cut spending.
SF does not. The Unionists do not.

Crooked Jack

Sleepy wrote: »

As far I can remember from the history I've read, Collins and DeValera tended to target soldiers rather than innocent civilians. There's also the small matter of the foundation of the Irish state in the meantime, though maybe you're part of the Republican movement that doesn't recognise the government Sinn Fein wish to play a part in these days?

Yup, the same soldiers the PIRA targeted. You're also living in an FF/FG fantasy land if you think no civilians were killed by the IRA in 1919-1921.
It's high time somebody challenged this notion that the "old" IRA were a group of pacifists who nobly fought the british off with rebel songs and pillows.
War is brutal, gruesome and horrific, wether it happened 10 years ago or 100 so to try and justify 1919 on one hand and condemn the PIRA on the other is just rank hypocrisy.
I dont see what part the foundation of the Free State plays when comparing the "old" IRA and PIRA.
Both were born into an enemy state that was illegally occupying Irish territory and they fought it.

MagicSean

Crooked Jack wrote: »

ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.... typical reaction of the anti SF crowd, people who will always be anti-Sinn Fein no matter what they say or do.
Ask a question, Sinn Fein answers it, they dont get the response they wanted so they resort to this tiresome kneecap/bombing/shooting schtick.
How much longer do you think that stuff is going to work for. There is a new generation of voters coming through who are judging parties on their policies and their actions, not the prejudices they were brought up with.
Better change your tune.

Yes i can see their actions now. "We condem the killing of this Garda. Oh **** that reminds me, I have to pick his killer up from court."

You want something more recent? How about the recent issue of trying using snippets of pro treaty speaches to support their no campaign. That's pretty untrustworthy.

Ruralyoke

Happy Monday wrote: »

You are missing the point.
The UK government calls the shots in NI.
The Irish government calls the shots down here.
FG has the power to raise taxes and cut spending.
SF does not. The Unionists do not.

I understand. But my point is that SF didn't object. They just went with it. Tacit approval.

Fenian Army

The comments about SF in power in the North are disingenuous. Firstly its a forced coalition with the DUP. There is no economic control, they get a kitty from the Brits. So what can they do?

When the assembly gets fiscal control and the ability to change taxes etc I'd expect greater change. As it is I think they have done a good job in difficult circumstances working with some of the most intransigent people the world has ever seen.

In the six counties they don't have the options that the govt in the 26 do.

And dont start the "good old IRA" nonsense. People need to cop on and realise that war is brutal and the "old" IRA was every bit as ruthless as the provos were.

Fenian Army

MagicSean wrote: »

Yes i can see their actions now. "We condem the killing of this Garda. Oh **** that reminds me, I have to pick his killer up from court."

You want something more recent? How about the recent issue of trying using snippets of pro treaty speaches to support their no campaign. That's pretty untrustworthy.

If people like you had their way the troubles would still be ongoing.Those who know the craic know why it was necessary to collect them for jail and show some support and/or solidarity.

Fenian Army

Happy Monday wrote: »

Why has he been banned?
Jean McConville was murdered by SF types.
A lot of evidence to suggest that Adams ordered the murder.

Can I see this evidence please?


If Gerry was interested in cash he could have been a millionaire by now just by suing for defamation

Crooked Jack

Ruralyoke wrote: »

Approve is the operative word here. Approve.

I am well aware that Stormonts hands are tied in many ways but when and where were SF up in arms about this then? Never heard a peep out of them. Their approval was required and was seemingly easily given.



Knew you'd say that of course - random search results. There are dozens, scores of others. You can check yourself.

I guess all these sites/journalists had better watch out then eh?

SF will be giving out stink about all that disingenuous commentary won't they?

...won't they?

Oh. Hasn't really happened though has it. Why is that? :rolleyes:

You must listen to no northern news whatsoever.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8649679.stm

http://www.u.tv/News/SF-calls-for-Stormont-pay-cut/425f7f51-83b7-48d9-af4d-be985a8a6abe

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/the-fight-against-tory-cuts-continues-sf-mla-1-3376040

http://www.westbelfastsinnfein.com/news/18993

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/paterson-sinn-fein-cuts-protest-childish-and-pathetic-15008108.html


Thats a very very small example of the level of opposition that was put up during the last budget discussions. Not a peep, eh?

In regards to your sources I was merely pointing out that you specifically went looking for "Sinn Fein hypocrisy," no doubt that's what you typed into google, so of course you found it on the website of an opposing party and an anti-republican mouthpiece.

srsly78

I will never vote for Sinn Fein. Not because of the whole terrorist thing, but because they are fscking Marxists :pac: Sure they have been playing down this angle lately, but once they get into power -> BAM -> CAMBODIA or worse.

What about all of us beard-deficient republicans?

Nodin

srsly78 wrote: »

I will never vote for Sinn Fein. Not because of the whole terrorist thing, but because they are fscking Marxists :pac: Sure they have been playing down this angle lately, but once they get into power -> BAM -> CAMBODIA or worse.

What about all of us beard-deficient republicans?

Beards will be provided.

Ruralyoke

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Thats a very very small example of the level of opposition that was put up during the last budget discussions.

Just standard crowd pleasing guff. All parties do it. Nothing specific.

...you specifically went looking for "Sinn Fein hypocrisy," no doubt that's what you typed into google...

Well sorry to disappoint and I know you guys can be paranoid types but I actually typed "Sinn Féin budget cuts" - that's it.

Fenian Army

Dudess wrote: »

Ok but they hold huge appeal, for instance, to those delightful youths who rioted for Love Ulster (I'm not a fan of Love Ulster either). I'm not saying all involved with/supportive of SF are yobs, but they do greatly appeal to many yobs.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Morlar

Ruralyoke wrote: »

Just standard crowd pleasing guff. All parties do it. Nothing specific.

One minute it's 'never heard a peep' then it's 'well yes we heard quite a few peeps actually but they were the wrong kinds of peeps - just standard crowd pleasing stuff'. Clutching at straws there.

Crooked Jack

Ruralyoke wrote: »

Just standard crowd pleasing guff. All parties do it. Nothing specific.



Well sorry to disappoint and I know you guys can be paranoid types but I actually typed "Sinn Féin budget cuts" - that's it.

Nothing specific?!?! You obviously didnt even read them. One of them is about an economic paper the party produced in response to the Tory cuts that outlines £1.9bn in savings and revenue without attacking front line services or low income families.
Clearly you're one of these "anti-SF no matter what" people i referred to earlier