Rescue dog reacting to other dogs

Slinks

I am a new dog owner, so would appreciate any advice given. Have great areas, extremely close by, for bringing my dog walking, or so I thought! I need to explain this from the start. I got my lovely dog from the pound just over a week ago. He had been in pound for at least 5 days before I got to collect him. When I arrived at the pound he was standing up against wall all excited, but not barking mad like other dogs. It took a while waiting for my turn to talk to warden. She said she would bring him out to me. I went around to side of building and once warden tried to bring my Charlie out, a Staffy attacked him in front of my eyes. The warden remained very calm (for me a bit too calm as she didnt actually stop the staffy.) When she eventually got Charlie out to me she checked his mouth and all I could see was blood. So I brought him home, and he is so well behaved. After he settled in tho I did notice a tooth missing in front of mouth. My cousin came to stay to help me integrate him with my cat. That went well. By the way, he is 1 year old.

But he was very heavy on lead...which I am starting to combat. Also he is going ape if other dog around.. Only 2 examples so far, as I have been taking walks very early in morning and very late at night so as not to meet other dogs. As I have only witnessed the one dog attacking Charlie, don't know if that has scared him. But also he didnt seem bothered by other dogs at all in pound, before that happened. Dogs all around our house bark mad in there back gardens, and Charlie rarely if ever answers.

The 2 intances was 1: very small dog on lead went mad but Charlie did go mad first. 2nd time was in field when Charlie barked like mad and dog off lead came running. Other dog gave the playfull stance and all, but Charlie went mad. I dont really know the difference between the playful and aggressive bark, but would think it was more on the verge of aggressive. I am thinking this could have something to do with his experience at pound. Is there a way around this without spending money on trainers etc.

I dont really know anyone closely enough to try him out with other dog in garden. What if he did get vicious? I dont really know his history...But maybe that is part of it. I know dogs sense your reactions. Dont tell me not to react, cos that will be very hard to do. I am hoping if I can get him trained to heel that I can train him to focus on me when other dogs are around. But training him to heel is difficult...Treats dont work. But he does actually walk beside me at times. Even when he is walking beside me I cant distract him enough to give a treat!

Anyway, I think I can learn enough from internet to teach him to walk on lead. Just not sure how to stop him going mad when he sees another dog. All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Zapperzy

Sounds very very similar to my situation, here's a thread I started about a year ago with my story and lots of advice http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056360476

My fella is also called Charlie, gotten as an adult rescue dog and also attacked by a dog at the shelter around when I got him! :eek: What breed or mix is your charlie?

As an update to that thread in the last year mine has gotten much better with other dogs, everything really (cattle, bikes, men with hats or hoods, cars with trailers and noisy lorries etc.). What I have found worked was lots and lots of exercise, when he's tired he's got less energy for barking at things, a short lead using a headcollar (I use a halti) as I find he's calmer when walking on it and when he's calmer at least were going into a situation without too much pent up energy, he's also much easier to control if he lunges and it relaxes me knowing I'v better control over him. And as a complete turnaround to what I was ranting about in that thread friendly off lead dogs have helped to a certain degree, I think the socialisation of meeting other dogs, having a sniff and a general good experience with them has helped him.

I don't really have any magic formula that I used, in truth I just sort of 'gave up' after 3 and a half years of him being like that I couldn't change him, then one day I met my boss out walking her little dog, usually mine barked upon seeing a dog but whatever happened that day he didn't and the two dogs had a good old sniff of each other and toddled off happily without 1 bark. And it just improved from there, everytime I met another dog I allowed him to meet them and sniff. We've gotten to the stage now where he's fine with other small dogs but still has issues with big dogs. Still have a lot of work to do though, maybe in the next 3/4 years we'l get there eventually!

You've only had him a week so give him a while to settle in and get into a routine and get to know each other's little quirks. Look up clicker training, it's useful for teaching things like 'look' or focus on you so at least on walks you could get him to focus on you rather than on other dogs in the distance. I think it was a stanley coren book that I found useful for little diagrams and explanations of the different stances, it explained what each position meant for example what position a dogs ears or tail are in and what they mean. Though I would really recommend a trainer at least a session or two to train you to train him, there's plenty of dodgy information on the internet as regards dog training, a good website though to start off is http://www.dogstardaily.com/

scholar007

Slinks wrote: »

My cousin came to stay to help me integrate him with my cat.

How did you "integrate" Charlie with kitty?

Slinks

Thanks for the reply Zapperzy. I followed your links and read most of the posts. (Will read the rest later) Very good reading, if not a little disheartening to think that I may just have to get used to this. It was interesting to read that even when you let your dog interact with other dogs, the reactions and lunges continue to happen. I was kinda hoping that if I bit the bullet and stopped avoiding other dogs that the lunging etc might stop. More for the dogs sake. At the moment I am walking him at 6.30 in the morning before work, (if I go after 7 a few other dog owners seem to be out and about with their dogs), and waiting to walk him again around 9.30 at night. He is a terrier cross, and is on the medium size, and is very strong, so at the moment I cant let my sons walk him, as they wouldn't have the strenght to hold him if confronted with another dog (they are only in very early teens). Also my parents live the far side of village and go walking every day. They would bring Charlie for walks too, but not the way he is at the moment. I know they wouldn't be able to manage him. He could be getting out and about so much more if I could get him used to other dogs. But as you say, I do only have him just over a week, so maybe it is a temporary thing, new area etc.

Scholar007 "integrate" was probably the wrong word to use. I have managed to bring the cat into the kitchen without much fuss. I started by carrying the cat around the room and eventually put her sitting on the table (where she could feel safe, on high ground) Charlie only tried to jump up and barked a couple of times the first day. I constantly treat him when I have the cat in the room, and he can be easily distracted when she is around (wish I could say the same with other dogs)

ISDW

The internet is a great tool, but it is also full of unproven techniques and tips, so I really wouldn't recommend just using it. I would recommend that you go and join a dog training class, whereabouts do you live, people on here could recommend a good one. Explain to the trainer what the situation is, and hopefully they will work with you, in a group situation, so that he will get used to the other dogs. It will only be once a week, and you will be expected to carry on the training at home and out on your walks, but its a great way to get your dog used to other dogs, and to meet other dog owners. It can get a bit lonely doing 2 walks a day every single day by yourself. Its a great social thing to meet up with other dog owners and go for a walk and a chat

From my own perspective, I have a dog here that sounds like Charlie. He will lunge and attack first, ask questions later. I think its because he doesn't trust the human he's with to look after him, so he feels he has to do it. I took him on a walk a few weeks ago with a new dog. Had the new dog on a lead, got Blizz out of the van, he went straight for Bodie. I had him on a lead with a traffic handle (handle near his collar) and I had hold of that, so I had him close to me and under control. I told him no when he lunged. I had to do it a couple of times, but then we went for an hour long walk with me holding the two dogs, no issues at all. They are now best pals and play together all the time. I know that Blizz's issues haven't gone away, but he is learning to trust that I will look after him, and he doesn't have to worry. He met another new dog yesterday, it just took one 'no' and he settled down.

Slinks

Thanks for reply ISDW. I am bringing him for a longer walk later, down to my parents. I am gonna go the long way down (which would be out on the main road, rather than through the town). I am sure I will still meet other dogs, but the traffic might help distract him, and I will be less hassled without feeling the whole town looking at me. When I bring him walking I use two leads at the moment. I have a lead attached to his collar, which he tends to pull on less (and no I dont jerk on it, as I do realise that can do damage to the dog), and also an ordinary harness, which I attach a lead to also. That is more of a back up, in case we come across other dogs, as I know he wont slip out of that.

I will look into classes to go to, but I had a dog years ago, when in my teens that I brought to training classes, and she came out of them worse. She didn't initially have a problem with other dogs, but after the training classes she came away a nervous wreck. She wouldn't even listen to me at the classes, as she was too busy trying to hide between my legs. But I am sure that is not always the case.

ISDW

Slinks wrote: »

Thanks for reply ISDW. I am bringing him for a longer walk later, down to my parents. I am gonna go the long way down (which would be out on the main road, rather than through the town). I am sure I will still meet other dogs, but the traffic might help distract him, and I will be less hassled without feeling the whole town looking at me. When I bring him walking I use two leads at the moment. I have a lead attached to his collar, which he tends to pull on less (and no I dont jerk on it, as I do realise that can do damage to the dog), and also an ordinary harness, which I attach a lead to also. That is more of a back up, in case we come across other dogs, as I know he wont slip out of that.

I will look into classes to go to, but I had a dog years ago, when in my teens that I brought to training classes, and she came out of them worse. She didn't initially have a problem with other dogs, but after the training classes she came away a nervous wreck. She wouldn't even listen to me at the classes, as she was too busy trying to hide between my legs. But I am sure that is not always the case.

Unfortunately there are a lot of trainers out there who shouldn't be allowed near a dog, which is why it would be a good idea to go to one that is recommended by other people.

The problem that I think you're going to have, is one that most people with lead aggressive dogs have, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You see another dog, you get nervous that your dog is going to react, your nerves pass down the lead to the dog, so then he does react, as he feels that there is something to react to. It is really, really hard to get over that. Try getting his attention on you when you see another dog, and give him a treat, then hopefully he'll start to associate other dogs with nice things.

Have you started him on his vaccinations yet? I wouldn't be in a rush to integrate him with other dogs until he's fully vaccinated, and coming from the pound, he could have been exposed to some nasties in there. I usually wait 2 weeks when a dog comes out of the pound before I start, so that anything they may have picked up in there becomes obvious. Its a waste of time vaccinating a dog that is ill.

Best of luck with him though, he sounds like a lucky dog to have landed with you and your family

Slinks

ISDW wrote: »

Unfortunately there are a lot of trainers out there who shouldn't be allowed near a dog, which is why it would be a good idea to go to one that is recommended by other people.

The problem that I think you're going to have, is one that most people with lead aggressive dogs have, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You see another dog, you get nervous that your dog is going to react, your nerves pass down the lead to the dog, so then he does react, as he feels that there is something to react to. It is really, really hard to get over that. Try getting his attention on you when you see another dog, and give him a treat, then hopefully he'll start to associate other dogs with nice things.

Have you started him on his vaccinations yet? I wouldn't be in a rush to integrate him with other dogs until he's fully vaccinated, and coming from the pound, he could have been exposed to some nasties in there. I usually wait 2 weeks when a dog comes out of the pound before I start, so that anything they may have picked up in there becomes obvious. Its a waste of time vaccinating a dog that is ill.

Best of luck with him though, he sounds like a lucky dog to have landed with you and your family

I registered for pet insurance once I got him home, so I am just waiting for the two weeks to be up before bringing him to vet. He apparently got his puppy vaccinations according to pound. But still want vet to give him a good look over. That is going to be another nerve racking experience at the vets. Hoping my dad might mind him in car, while waiting for Vet to see him. Could be a nightmare waiting in waiting room with a load of other dogs...:(

Heading out now shortly with a pocket full of treats...:D

ISDW

Slinks wrote: »

I registered for pet insurance once I got him home, so I am just waiting for the two weeks to be up before bringing him to vet. He apparently got his puppy vaccinations according to pound. But still want vet to give him a good look over. That is going to be another nerve racking experience at the vets. Hoping my dad might mind him in car, while waiting for Vet to see him. Could be a nightmare waiting in waiting room with a load of other dogs...:(

Heading out now shortly with a pocket full of treats...:D

Did you get given a vaccination card when you got him with the full record of his vaccinations?

Tranceypoo

Just on the taking the dog to the vet, do you have anyone else that could take him into the vets other than you? Just as ISDW said it really is a self fulfilling prophecy with the behaviour, you anticipating it, enhancing it etc etc, maybe someone else a friend or something, won't be in the same highly anxious state you will probably be in and that will make the dog worse!

Believe me I know because I have a dog aggresive dog myself, although she seems to be only lead aggressive and actually can be around other dogs quite happily, it literally seems to be meeting certain dogs when she's on the lead. Anyway, a fellow boardsie recommended this link to me and I would recommend putting it into practice, I've had some success however I have 2 dogs so it's a bit trickier when I'm out with both, but that's another post!! Have a look at this link
www.functionalrewards.com

Good luck with it, sounds like your dog landed on his paws with you anyways!!

Slinks

ISDW I got no vacination card. The background is that I saw Charlie on pounds website on the friday, and fell in love with him. (this was after checking out many rescue centers from around the country over several months - a lot of dogs I put my eye on didnt turn out to be suitable or were rehomed very quickly). I rang the shelter on the saturday morning and was told that they had taken the dog in, and knew the owners, but that the owners had refused to pay reclaim fee or license fee. They said that they had to wait for owners to come down and sign dog over before they could rehome him. I rang again on the Monday, and by time I got through, the owners had come and signed him over, but it was too late for me to collect him, and they close on Tuesdays. In that conversation I was told that he was a very strong willed dog. Or something along those lines. I told them I would call wednesday to see him and hopefully be able bring him home. I dont drive myself and usually depend on my folks for lifts when needed, but as I was off work this particular week, they had gone away. So I arranged a taxi (at a bit of expense). When I got to pound there were a couple of people in front of me (one taking 2 dogs and another dropping a dog off) so I was waiting a while. I got a chance to look at charlie in the enclosure and he seemed a very happy dog, among the other dogs. As I said in original post, that changed when warden went to bring him out and staffy attacked. Once I had Charlie on lead we went back around to fill in forms. I was told then that they had been told Charlie had been given his puppy vaccinations, and shown the form for the sign over, which original owners had given reason for giving dog up as he was fighting with his brother (also their dog) but was given the impression that they had to write something and sibling fighting or play fighting was completely normal. I know that I am lucky that the pound even had this information, as they can often have none at all.

I will go into detail another time about the two encounters charlie had with other dogs. Both times, looking back are probably my fault. Today on our extra long walk, we didnt come across any dogs until the end of the journey. On the way home I needed to go to supermarket which is located at top of town (my side of town) and as there was no one around I settled kids on bench a bit up from supermarket and told them to hold onto Charlie. When I came out of supermarket charlie was barking mad. When I got up to them kids told me that dog was across road and he just barked like crazy. By time I got there, there was no sign of another dog, but he was still barking. We cut through the park to get home (which is a short cut) and there was a dog on the lead a bit ahead of us, and he paid on attention. But think he didnt see it.

Last point aimed at Tranceypoo. I agree that maybe I might try and get my dad to bring Charlie into vet. That was a very good point with my nerves travelling down the lead. I checked out your link, and not sure if I could follow it fully. Granted I only checked out the first page and that was about nerves with children. A lot easier to tell a child to be quite and untreathening than a dog. But I will look more into that site, as I am sure they go into other things also.

So sorry for such a long post! If anyone even reads this it will be a miracle. Was never good at telling a long story short!

ISDW

You will need to start his vaccinations again from scratch if you have no card, so the vet will want to do that when you take him in.

littlebug

I've had to really work on similar with my dog. "strong willed "would be a good description of her also

it didn't happen overnight but I'm now confident that 99% of the time mine will be fine with other dogs and I'm also confident that I know the triggers for the other 1% so I try to avoid them where possible and manage it if I can't avoid.

I won't go into the finer detail but the biggest contributing factor in my case was me relaxing a bit, saying a big smiley cheery "hello" to anyone approaching us with a dog, generally met with a cheery reply. I think if my dogs sees that I'm not nervous then she's more relaxed too. More often than not a few seconds or more of chat in passing which gives dogs a chance to sniff and off we go. once we've had one good encounter with a particular dog then there isn't a problem next time we meet them.

On initially seeing other dogs mine sometimes wants to get to them (lunging).... I mistook this at the start as her wanting to attack. Now I see that it's not.The aggression only really kicks in if she and/ or the other dog are held back or if the other dog shows a nervous reaction to her.

I'm never 100% confident and always keep a close eye on the body language and a short lead so I can extract her from a situation quickly.

Tranceypoo

littlebug wrote: »

I've had to really work on similar with my dog. "strong willed "would be a good description of her also

it didn't happen overnight but I'm now confident that 99% of the time mine will be fine with other dogs and I'm also confident that I know the triggers for the other 1% so I try to avoid them where possible and manage it if I can't avoid.

I won't go into the finer detail but the biggest contributing factor in my case was me relaxing a bit, saying a big smiley cheery "hello" to anyone approaching us with a dog, generally met with a cheery reply. I think if my dogs sees that I'm not nervous then she's more relaxed too. More often than not a few seconds or more of chat in passing which gives dogs a chance to sniff and off we go. once we've had one good encounter with a particular dog then there isn't a problem next time we meet them.

On initially seeing other dogs mine sometimes wants to get to them (lunging).... I mistook this at the start as her wanting to attack. Now I see that it's not.The aggression only really kicks in if she and/ or the other dog are held back or if the other dog shows a nervous reaction to her.

I'm never 100% confident and always keep a close eye on the body language and a short lead so I can extract her from a situation quickly.

Agree with all of this, the cheery 'hello' works for me as well most of the time and a 'hello nice doggy, aren't you nice and friendly' etc in a cheerful but not excited voice. It's the dogs allow to wander from their houses round the country lanes we walk that cause me the most problem. Also re the lunging, I too mistook it for aggression but that isn't always the case. It is really hard though not to get stressed and nervous and anticipate a situation before it even happens.

Do persevere with that website though OP, she also has videos on You Tube about meeting other dogs etc.

LucyBliss

Slinks, first of all, fair play to you for rescuing a dog and for not not being discouraged enough by this behaviour that you are ready to get rid of him again.

What I'd say to you, is that yes, a lot of it can depend on your reaction in that he'll go ape at a dog and you get tense and he reacts to that then. But it's early days. You're adjusting to one another. The more you get to know him and how he is when you're together at home, the more he'll know about you. You'll get used to one another, is what I'm saying, and that will make your walks a lot easier, or it'll make it a lot easier for you to work with him.

It'll take time but it'll happen. Best of luck. Also, any pictures to share with us?