At least 63 children alone murdered in the last two days!

Biggins

In yet one more day (of many) of mass killings while the world does NOTHING, president Bashar Assad and his ordered army has murdered many, many more in central Syria on Friday.

Syrian troops using tanks, mortars and heavy machine guns pounded the area of Houla, a region made up of several towns and villages in the province of Homs, the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights and the Local Coordination Committees activist groups said.

An amateur video posted online by activists showed more than a dozen bodies lined up inside a room. They included about 10 children who were covered with sheets that only showed their bloodied faces.

LINK

As a poster on the news link above referred to, we are witnessing more 'Bosnia' style daily killings - and yet again the world is standing by doing little or nothing. Shame on all the nations standing by - including our own!

Bashar Assad AT THE VERY LEAST is now another war murdering criminal who's presence should belong in an international court of law.

UPDATE:

Syrian opposition organizations accused government forces on Saturday of carrying out a massacre in a village near Homs, leaving some 100 people dead, many of them children.

The toll, initially put at 50, climbed as more victims were found in the village of Houla, some 15 miles northwest of the central city of Homs. Many of the hamlets in the region are controlled by local militias loosely allied as the Free Syrian Army, and the government forces have been trying to drive them out.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, based in Britain, put the death toll at 90 on Saturday, while the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood issued a statement saying it was 100, including 50 children.

LINK.

---

This a disgrace.
Every nation that is doing bugger all to stop this and/or saying nothing (again, including our own) ought to be ashamed of themselves.
Terrible. Just terrible.

Stinicker

They don't have Oil, there is nothing to see here, move along folks.

Winston Payne

INTERVENE EVERYWHERE!

My name is URL

What exactly should the 'world' do? Send a load of weapons for them to use against the oppressors, and then once it's over have many different factions armed to the teeth and vying for power themselves?

mikemac1

Should we arm the side we favour?
That was done in Iraq and Afghanistan decades ago and see how that turned out


And in time the Libyan rebels will turn out to be worse then what was there before

hooradiation

My name is URL wrote: »

What exactly should the 'world' do?

follow biggins example - be outraged on the internet about it.

Run_to_da_hills

There are thousands of unborn babies murdered in abortion clinics through out the northern hemisphere every day and no one seems to bat an eye lid until something like this comes up.

My name is URL

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There are thousands of unborn babies murdered in abortion clinics through out the northern hemisphere every day and no one seems to bat an eye lid until something like this comes up.

Ah here.. I'm off for a walk!

Way too many racist hillbillies on this forum are more interested in Israel building a wall to give a flying fcuk about the actual genocide/ethnic cleansing/ state sanctioned terrorism carried out by real dictators surrounding them.

Looking forward to all the right-on hippies trying to invade Syria with an aid flotilla for the victims (of what is undeniably a disgraceful and preventable situation). What's good for the goose and all that...

Biggins

My name is URL wrote: »

What exactly should the 'world' do? Send a load of weapons for them to use against the oppressors, and then once it's over have many different factions armed to the teeth and vying for power themselves?

Strong economic sanctions, freeze ALL their assets, issue international arrest warrants for Assad and his cronies, not allow international travel for himself and his government ordering killers and more would be a good start.

hooradiation wrote: »

follow biggins example - be outraged on the internet about it.

...Then also with me, join a protest and/or further publicise these killing and shame the killers.
Show them to the world for what they are.

**Vai**

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There are thousands of unborn babies murdered in abortion clinics through out the northern hemisphere every day and no one seems to bat an eye lid until something like this comes up.

Brilliant

mikom

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There are thousands of unborn babies murdered in abortion clinics through out the northern hemisphere every day and no one seems to bat an eye lid until something like this comes up.

Proper order too......

Mrmoe

Nato seemed to intervene a lot quicker in Libya. I don't think they had much closer links to Russia than Syria so I can't see any reason for a delay

Jaafa

I'd wait before coming to any conclusions, both sides have been well documented as repeatedly lying and exaggerating claims of deaths, the opposition is no more credible than the regime.

This is not an opinion solely held by me, the american intelligence organisation Stratfor seems to believe the same. They claimed

“most of the opposition's more serious claims have turned out to be grossly exaggerated or simply untrue, thereby revealing more about the opposition's weaknesses than the level of instability inside the Syrian regime.”

Just as claims of massacres in Homs were proven untrue (the city was largely empty of civilians by the time major fighting begun), I would wait before crying massacre here too. Anyone who thinks this a simple case of a mad dictator going on a senseless rampage against innocent civilians is naive. The truth is far more complicated than that.

And one more thing, I didn't see any threads about the dozens of civilians killing by the bombings carried out by the opposition, odd that.

Link for the above, it's a good read.

EDIT: Some more to add from a similar article based on the stratfor leaks

Stratfor's investigation, however, found "no signs of a massacre," and warns that "opposition forces have an interest in portraying an impending massacre, hoping to mimic the conditions that propelled a foreign military intervention in Libya."

Biggins

I wonder why some are saying nothing in Ireland...

Syria Disrupts Text Messaging Of Protesters With Made-In-Dublin Equipment

Syriatel Mobile Telecom SA, the country’s largest mobile- phone operator, conducts the blocking with equipment from Cellusys Ltd., a privately-held company based in Dublin, according to one of the people, who is familiar with the filtering.

Cellusys delivered a filtering system to Syriatel in 2008 as the mobile operator struggled to combat viruses and spam, which can be blocked by such gear, according to Cellusys Chief Executive Officer Dawood Ghalaieny. Syriatel is controlled by Rami Makhluf, cousin of President Assad, according to the U.S. Department of the Treasury, which enacted sanctions against the company last year.

In addition, another Irish company, AdaptiveMobile Security Ltd., which is also based in Dublin, has supplied message- filtering technology to MTN Syria, the country’s second-largest mobile operator, according to four people familiar with that system.

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-15/syria-blocks-texts-with-dublin-made-gear.html

**Vai**

mikom wrote: »

Proper order too......

To quote an old Chinese proverb..."stop having so many f**cking babies or the country will sink....literally"

BunShopVoyeur

Every day, millions of insects are crushed beneath our feet.

Flushed down drains, swatted with newspapers and have their limbs torn off by children and yet we stand by and do nothing.

Stop the murder!


*hysterical scream*


(The internet will know what to do)

Mrmoe

Mrmoe wrote: »

Nato seemed to intervene a lot quicker in Libya. I don't think they had much closer links to Russia than Syria so I can't see any reason for a delay

The only Russian Naval base outside of Russia is in Syria. (Not counting Sevastopol in Ukraine which was actually part of Russia proper until the Soviets re-drew the border to put it in Ukraine in the 1950's).

So there already is a Russian military presence in Syria, has been for many many years now, which wasn't in Libya.

mike65

Mrmoe wrote: »

Nato seemed to intervene a lot quicker in Libya. I don't think they had much closer links to Russia than Syria so I can't see any reason for a delay

Have you any idea how different the logistics along are? Not to mention the **** storm that would follow when Syrias "boss" Iran gets involved. Hezzbollah (Iranian client army) would attack Israel, Israel would attack Tehran unless Washington could talk them out of it. Turkey being a NATO member would be attack by Syria/agents (so expect massive suicide bombings) and so on.

Throw in Putins Russia which is "friendly" with Syria...

Dudess

misterbizmuth wrote: »

Way too many racist hillbillies on this forum are more interested in Israel building a wall to give a flying fcuk about the actual genocide/ethnic cleansing/ state sanctioned terrorism carried out by real dictators surrounding them.

Looking forward to all the right-on hippies trying to invade Syria with an aid flotilla for the victims (of what is undeniably a disgraceful and preventable situation). What's good for the goose and all that...

No different to the people who have no connection whatsoever to Israel but militantly defend it and even the extreme acts its defence forces carry out because it's the anti "right-on hippy" thing to do.

/shrug

Dudess

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There are thousands of unborn babies murdered in abortion clinics through out the northern hemisphere every day and no one seems to bat an eye lid until something like this comes up.

Haha!

Biggins

Jaafa wrote: »

I'd wait before coming to any conclusions, both sides have been well documented as repeatedly lying and exaggerating claims of deaths, the opposition is no more credible than the regime.

This is not an opinion solely held by me, the american intelligence organisation Stratfor seems to believe the same. They claimed

Just as claims of massacres in Homs were proven untrue (the city was largely empty of civilians by the time major fighting begun), I would wait before crying massacre here too. Anyone who thinks this a simple case of a mad dictator going on a senseless rampage against innocent civilians is naive. The truth is far more complicated than that.

And one more thing, I didn't see any threads about the dozens of civilians killing by the bombings carried out by the opposition, odd that.

Link for the above, it's a good read.

If you bothered to read the exact detail of what I posted in the very first post you would have seen:

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, based in Britain

...So before anyone says that it might just be the fighting opposition making up these numbers, they might need to look again.

...Anyone who thinks this a simple case of a mad dictator going on a senseless rampage against innocent civilians is naive.

Forgive me for disagreeing but that above is a load of crap!
Even IF he had an excuse for sending in an army anywhere, shelling homes, killing wives and children - NOT fighters, is never excusable.
Be on the streets of Homs, on the streets of Manchester letting bombs off or on the streets of Northern Ireland - killing innocent adults and kids is disgusting - BY ANY SIDE.
Anyone that tries to justify such killing has their priorities totally wrong and sick in the head!

Dublin:
* http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5626/1046994.jpg
* http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3719/1046967.jpg

mikemac1

Shame on Ireland?

Let the old colonial powers step in if anyone needs to go in
Where is France? They were there for decades

Chuck Stone

Biggins wrote: »

Strong economic sanctions

Economic sanctions are a tricky issue because all it usually does is make the population even more impoverished and the regime more vicious -you could end up with a lot more dead children from deprivation and violence.

Biggins

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Economic sanctions are a tricky issue because all it usually does is make the population even more impoverished and the regime more vicious -you could end up with a lot more dead children from deprivation and violence.

Very true - so such sanctions should target those that have the most to lose.
Those that are supporting the regime - not just targeting the regime itself.
Target the industries/people that are propping up the killers (on BOTH sides).
Take away the killers support mechanism, their military resource suppliers alone, would make a huge difference.

token101

Sure 1000s die in Africa everyday and noone really gives a f*ck. That's people for you.

token101

Biggins wrote: »

Very true - so such sanctions should target those that have the most to lose.
Those that are supporting the regime - not just targeting the regime itself.
Target the industries/people that are propping up the killers (on BOTH sides).
Take away the killers support mechanism, their military resource suppliers alone, would make a huge difference.

And we could invent a giant rain machine in Africa and the world would be right again

Biggins

token101 wrote: »

Sure 1000s die in Africa everyday and noone really gives a f*ck. That's people for you.

Sadly true.

In the meanwhile for those that might espouse that the numbers are made up, they might care to explain the photograph with this Irish Times report just posted to their website: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0526/breaking6.html
(NOT graphic in blood, etc)

Dudess

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Economic sanctions are a tricky issue because all it usually does is make the population even more impoverished and the regime more vicious -you could end up with a lot more dead children from deprivation and violence.

That's why I question the boycotting of Israeli goods - I wonder whether it would have a trickle-down effect on Palestinian people themselves.

Jaafa

If you bothered to read the exact detail of what I posted in the very first post you would have seen:

...So before anyone says that it might just be the fighting opposition making up these numbers, they might need to look again.

Your the one who seems to be confused, the SOHR is publicly opposed to Assad, therefore they are in the opposition. The majority of their contacts on the ground are from groups like the FSA.

Forgive me for disagreeing but that above is a load of crap!
Even IF he had an excuse for sending in an army anywhere, shelling homes, killing wives and children - NOT fighters, is never excusable.
Be on the streets of Homs, on the streets of Manchester letting bombs off or on the streets of Northern Ireland - killing innocent adults and kids is disgusting - BY ANY SIDE.
Anyone that tries to justify such killing has their priorities totally wrong and sick in the head!

You honestly believe the army is directly targeting civilians? Really? What kind of practical sense does that make? My opinion is that people were more than likely killed as a result of crossfire and shelling of areas where attacks from the opposition originated from.
If you had bothered to read my link you would have seen the regime has been very careful to avoid incidents such as this to avoid international military intervention.

The risk analysis group argues that allegations of massacres against civilians were unlikely because the "regime has calibrated its crackdowns to avoid just such a scenario. Regime forces," Stratfor argues, "have been careful to avoid the high casualty numbers that could lead to an intervention based on humanitarian grounds."

And it makes sense, by attacking civ's they stand to gain exactly zero and potentially lose much much more.

And enough already of me trying to justify the killings, don't even go there, you know full well that's not my intention. I'm trying to gather what was the most likely reason for these deaths, and it isn't that one day Assad decided to order his men to kill close to a 100 hundred people for the craic.

Gee Bag

Biggins wrote: »

Target the industries/people that are propping up the killers (on BOTH sides).
Take away the killers support mechanism, their military resource suppliers alone, would make a huge difference.

This seems a bit naive to me,

If you don't at least let the rebel side have access arms then they are going to get hammered, like the Kurds and Shiites in Iraq were after the first Gulf War. Leaving you the status quo ante bellum - sh1tbag dicatator remains in power.

Anyway, there are already enough arms in Syria to keep the war ticking over for a long time yet

And what do the Russians think.............

(Reuters) - A Russian cargo ship loaded with weapons is en route to Syria and due to arrive at a Syrian port this weekend, Al Arabiya television said in a report that Western diplomats in New York described on Friday as credible.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/26/us-syria-arms-russia-idUSBRE84P00B20120526

The only way to stop the fighting would be for the Arab League to send in troops, lots of them. (the Saudi's were fairly quick to send their chaps into Bahrain). However, this isn't likely to happen as pretty much every other Arab country is a dictatorship of one form or another.

This war is just going to keep on going.

Biggins

token101 wrote: »

You honestly believe the army is directly targeting civilians? Really?

Yes, either that or his army is the worst shots in the history of probably nearly every army since the invention of the cannon.
Hell, they even fired upon the Arab independent observers and their vehicles that was clearly marked - and that was just last week.

Whats the pitiful excuse that those acts too?

And it makes sense, by attacking civ's they stand to gain exactly zero and potentially lose much much more.

He's not doing it for the 'craic' - as is the expression you mentioned.
He's doing it to terrify them into submission and silence.
A lot of the world sees this and recognises this tactic he's using - he's not the first to use it.

...And if he gets 'submission and silence' his tactics works very well in his favour!
His regime of torture and killings will further continue.

Jaafa

Biggins wrote: »

Yes, either that or his army is the worst shots in the history of probably nearly every army since the invention of the cannon.
Hell, they even fired upon the Arab independent observers and their vehicles that was clearly marked - and that was just last week.

Whats the pitiful excuse that those acts too?

Wow. Ok let me get this straight.

The US army using the most sophisticated weapon systems in the history of mankind regularly kills dozens of civilians in battles with Taliban or in strikes against militants in Pakistan, yet it is incomprehensible to you that the 2nd rate Syrian army using 70's and 80's era weaponry could do the same in battles with opposition forces?

What evidence do you have that the above isn't the case? Seeing as the SOHR is only source for these claims? Seeing that their allegiance has been established.

He's not doing it for the 'craic' - as is the expression you mentioned.
He's doing it to terrify them into submission and silence.
A lot of the world sees this and recognises this tactic he's using - he's not the first to use it.

...And if he gets 'submission and silence' his tactics works very well in his favour!
His regime of torture and killings will further continue.

Oh yeah because that worked out so well for Gadaffi. The army is more than capable of eventually defeating the rebels militarily without having to 'scare' them, what Assad can not afford is external intervention.

humberklog

Threads of this ilk on AH hours always give me the queasy feeling that it's really just fuel for a bluffers guide to caring.

A vacuous relevance. When you listen hard you can almost hear the internet slowly eating itself.

A cancer on concern, disguised as a cure.

Biggins

Jaafa wrote: »

...it is incomprehensible to you that the 2nd rate Syrian army using 70's and 80's era weaponry could do the same in battles with opposition forces?

Well that might explain why they are so crap at killing the people they are supposedly opposing - instead of innocent civilians.

Would you care to explain how attacking funerals, mourners and graveyards/gravesides is fighting armed militants?

Jaafa wrote: »

What evidence do you have that the above isn't the case? Seeing as the SOHR is only source for these claims? Seeing that their allegiance has been established.

These claims - as with previous ones will be either backed up by further Arab independent confirmation or someone will amazingly expose that the bodies shown in the Irish Times, the Youtube videos of the butchered children with the insides of their heads blown off, the women that have been cut in two by shells, etc... have been all made up!

Yea... Its all lies! :rolleyes:

What stupidity!

Jaafa wrote: »

The army is more than capable of eventually defeating the rebels militarily without having to 'scare' them, what Assad can not afford is external intervention.

Assad has tried (and still tries) alternative methods to scare the population into submission, the continuing killings - as witnessed by Arab independents alone - still continues.

...But you continue on trying to justify such killings and/or say/espouse that its all made up.
...And if they are not even HALF made up, how do you justify killing so many innocent adults and kids?

International leaders have condemned the reported killing of at least 90 people, including children, in the Syrian town of Houla by the government.

UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said he would seek a strong international response to the "appalling crime".

France's Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius and the Arab League also condemned the assault.

Shocking but unverified footage shows the bodies of children after government forces shelled and attacked the town.

This is said to be one the bloodiest attacks in one area since a nominal truce began in April.

The UN said its international monitors had visited the area.

The UN says at least 10,000 have been killed since an uprising began in March 2011 against President Bashar al-Assad's rule.

Arab League head Nabil al-Arabi called the killing a "horrific crime" and urged the Security Council to "stop the escalation of killing and violence by armed gangs and government military forces," the Reuters news agency reports.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18221461

Leana Hosea
BBC News
The "massacre" video which has emerged from Houla bears the sound of a man screaming:

"These are all children! Watch, you dogs, you Arabs, you animals - look at these children, watch, just watch!"

On a bedroom floor dozens of little children lie dead, their arms and legs strewn over one another. Many of their eyes are still open, bearing a look of shock and fright. They are all covered with blood and obviously suffered terrible deaths.

A girl, who is perhaps seven years old, wearing a headscarf and pink diamonte belt, lies face to face in death with a much younger boy.

Another little boy in a yellow jumper lies with his arms stretched out, almost cradling the head of the girl next to him. Blood covers both their faces and soaks their hair.

People off camera are shouting: "Oh God, oh God, oh God."

---

In one instance, six members of a family were killed when their house was shelled, the Observatory said.

Yea, thats a great fcuking military target!

wes

Yes, its shameful that what Assad is doing, but the simple fact is that Assad has some powerful friends who are protecting him. The same happened in the case of Bahrain as well recently.

To be fair, I am not sure what exactly could be done to stop them. Libya didn't quite work out so well, with intervention, and there seems to be a great deal of problems there still. BTW, I am not against intervention, just against people going in and making things worse, which is a real possibility imho.

Chuck Stone

Dudess wrote: »

That's why I question the boycotting of Israeli goods - I wonder whether it would have a trickle-down effect on Palestinian people themselves.

Afaia there are sanctions targeted at goods and services produced in the West Bank that are sold as Israeli which are more 'surgical' and are easier to support.

Biggins

Dudess wrote: »

That's why I question the boycotting of Israeli goods - I wonder whether it would have a trickle-down effect on Palestinian people themselves.

Strategic economic sanctions.

A first world country can tell a company and/or person that they should have no longer any dealings with such regimes - if they don't stop, their presence, their company and their business will no longer be desired or wanted within the confines of another modern country (such as America). Their ability to travel will be curtailed, their finances will be possibly frozen, they will be possibly charged with supporting a regime, as such assisting a regime that is killing innocent people, that they too are accountable as they are acting as an enabler!

If any company/person has any sense, they would stop supporting these dictator killing nutjobs - especially when they see their economic finances are effected - and thats effected outside beyond Syrian borders, not within.

Those within will still - as we might assume now - still struggle to find food, water and all the things they need to get through a day in safety.
Meanwhile outside the borders of Syria, a company/person will be pressurised to comply and if they lose or are put on hold, for a government contract for the likes of England, Ireland, Russia or America, they will soon kop themselves on when they start to see massive loss of profit in their bank accounts, from the businesses they are running outside of Syria.

UPDATE: RTE news at 6 reports that UN observers have confirmed the killings by the way!

Let the bullschite artists still continue with their rubbish...

skoomi

Biggins wrote: »

UPDATE: RTE news at 6 reports that UN observers have confirmed the killings by the way!

LoL... you still get your news from RTE?

planetX

Stinicker wrote: »

They don't have Oil, there is nothing to see here, move along folks.

they do have oil:p

mikemac1

22 countries in the Arab League

They already suspended Syria

Seems to be a bit of a toothless talking shop

Still, let the Arabs sort out their region


If another country steps in I'll be reading another thread in AH about the powerful countries becoming the worlds policemen and interfering where they are not wanted

Maybe from the same OP

Scioch

How much are those observers getting paid and who are they ? That would be some fcukin job, observing slaughter in a volatile place like that and even getting attacked regularly yourself from what I see.

Question is that now that the UN observers can confirm atrocities are taking place what will the UN do ? Surely its upscale pressure, pull the observers and do what was done in Libya ?

christmas2012

its a pity the UN dont have more powers

Biggins

mikemac1 wrote: »

...If another country steps in I'll be reading another thread in AH about the powerful countries becoming the worlds policemen and interfering where they are not wanted

Maybe from the same OP

I've never started a thread about "powerful countries becoming the worlds policemen" etc...

The world don't need to step in across borders as such, there is much they can at least try doing from outside.

christmas2012 wrote: »

its a pity the UN dont have more powers

Sadly they are restrained by Russia and China in this instance to a great extent.

Scioch

Biggins wrote: »

Sadly they are restrained by Russia and China in this instance to a great extent.

All a game of military chess while the poor old average schmoes get the raw end of the deal.

Apelles

humberklog wrote: »

Threads of this ilk on AH hours always give me the queasy feeling that it's really just fuel for a bluffers guide to caring.

A vacuous relevance. When you listen hard you can almost hear the internet slowly eating itself.

A cancer on concern, disguised as a cure.

Thats quite an unforunate outlook to have. What would you rather people just turned a blind eye to everything that doesn't directly concern themselves? what a sad selfish world that would lead to.

Really sh!tty stuff like this happens . . yes you guessed it, because 'good' people idly stand-by & just watch while doing nothing to help or even raise awareness.

Thanks Biggins for trying to enlighten us.

Nodin

humberklog wrote: »

Threads of this ilk on AH hours always give me the queasy feeling that it's really just fuel for a bluffers guide to caring.

A vacuous relevance. When you listen hard you can almost hear the internet slowly eating itself.

A cancer on concern, disguised as a cure.

A silly post, phrased to look "deep".

Biggins

LordSmeg wrote: »

All a game of military chess while the poor old average schmoes get the raw end of the deal.

No argument there.

Jester252

When did everybody become cool with US lead invasion across the world?

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

Very true - so such sanctions should target those that have the most to lose.
Those that are supporting the regime - not just targeting the regime itself.
Target the industries/people that are propping up the killers (on BOTH sides).
Take away the killers support mechanism, their military resource suppliers alone, would make a huge difference.

How do you do that exactly? Economic sanctions affect the poorer people way more than the better off as it restricts (for most people) the entire economy to purely domestic and eventually towards subsistence. The middle class who may want to GTFO have had their assets seized and can't do ****.

Have a look at any country under harsh sanctions, is it the leaders and army who suffer? Is it shite.

Gee Bag

Apelles wrote: »

Thats quite an unforunate outlook to have. What would you rather people just turned a blind eye to everything that doesn't directly concern themselves? what a sad selfish world that would lead to.

Really sh!tty stuff like this happens . . yes you guessed it, because 'good' people idly stand-by & just watch while doing nothing to help or even raise awareness.

Thanks Biggins for trying to enlighten us.

There's nothing unfortunate about having a realistic outlook.

If you have watched the news or read a paper in the last 15 months you'll know there is a war in Syria. Posting in After Hours about it isn't 'raising awareness' (unless After Hours is your only news source)

Anyone with a brain in there head knows war is a bad thing, anyone who thinks posting on an internet forum based in a small neutral country will have any effect hasn't.

Wanting to publicly wring your hands and say why can't we all get along is not enlightening.