Fiscal treaty poll

ex_infantry man

i know there is another thread but it don't have a poll in it just to get an idead of what people are voting well i'm voting no

MitchKoobski

Voting Yes and always was. Still haven't seen or heard a NO argument that has convinced me otherwise.

Sully

Safely bet the No side will lead this poll. I'm voting Yes because having studied the treaty and both sides, I feel that this treaty isn't a bad thing seeing as it just protects our budget in a similar way it already did but with extra protection. A lot of the stuff about austerity being brought in is false. A lot of the figures (both millions/billions and percentages) are false. A lot about taxation is false.

I hate the way in Ireland neither side can debate properly and just be ****ing honest.

ex_infantry man

ya think sully? i think so as well, think people are fed up with being lead along by bull****ters that are in our government claiming to be creating jobs!!! no FDI coming into waterford rather leaving waterford!! the last big employer to enter waterford is genzyme, they would wanna get them thumb out and do something NOW about it!!!

ziedth

I picked No but I'm still undecided, looking at the info at hand I feel yes is the correct choice but another part of me is so disgruntled I just want to vote No to piss off the government. I'm aware feeling that way is awfully short sighted but it is how I feel.

I think Yes vote will win on the day but only just.

Sully

ex_infantry man wrote: »

ya think sully? i think so as well, think people are fed up with being lead along by bull****ters that are in our government claiming to be creating jobs!!! no FDI coming into waterford rather leaving waterford!! the last big employer to enter waterford is genzyme, they would wanna get them thumb out and do something NOW about it!!!

While Waterford isn't getting the jobs, Ireland is. Well over a thousands jobs announced this year and loads created weekly. No denying that to be fair.

ziedth wrote: »

I picked No but I'm still undecided, looking at the info at hand I feel yes is the correct choice but another part of me is so disgruntled I just want to vote No to piss off the government. I'm aware feeling that way is awfully short sighted but it is how I feel.

I think Yes vote will win on the day but only just.

I don't think its appropriate we use such important votes to give the government a "bloody nose" or to "send a message". It doesn't, never has, work and its why your asked to vote again.

People need to just put aside their issues with the government and deal with the issue at hand. Only the facts. I only deal in facts myself and the Yes side have not been very honest at times, but some of the stuff the No camp are suggesting is a disgrace, dishonest and complete bull****.

johndoe99

I always vote no to anything the government wants.

Do i need to explain why i think like that, i don't think so.

Politicians are like banana's, they start out green, turn yellow, then go crooked.

ziedth

Well over one thousand announced maybe but how many have gone? What's the net figure for jobs this year?

Oh I know the "No vote" is full of shiit somebody started a thread in Ah that SF play to the lowest common denominator and I think they have a very good point. The "Euro 2012" No vote sign is so awful I think it might actually be a double bluff from FG.

Sully

ziedth wrote: »

Well over one thousand announced maybe but how many have gone? What's the net figure for jobs this year?

Seems to be very few, if your using media as your source, compared to that announced. HP was the biggest lately, cutting thousands worldwide with everywhere guarnteed to be effected. I think there will be a lot of that where companies small and large over built their workforce and now need to cut to make savings.

The employment rate isn't increasing. People say its because they are leaving the country. But with the rate of jobs being announced - someone has to fill them. The employed are just that and even if they switched - there has to be vacancies for those on the live register to jump over (assuming its in their area, of course, which needs to be factored in).

Oh I know the "No vote" is full of shiit somebody started a thread in Ah that SF play to the lowest common denominator and I think they have a very good point. The "Euro 2012" No vote sign is so awful I think it might actually be a double bluff from FG.

Aye I was reading that at the start, gone a bit flat now with the usual nonsense about how good or bad policies are.

Cabaal

johndoe99 wrote: »

I always vote no to anything the government wants.

With all due respect that is frankly the most idiotic comment I've seen in a good long while,

By your own logic if the government wanted to hold a referendum on changes to protect children in the constitution or something that would bring a benefit to the citizens of Ireland you'd vote no just because the government wanted it too
:rolleyes:

Its your job as a citizen of this country to educate yourself when it comes to important matters that require a vote,

Frankly your idiotic comment just shows that some people take for granted and throw away what others would die just to be able to do in their own country, the right to vote.

Frankly I couldn't give a monkeys if you vote no but atleast have some self respect and vote no for the right reason, to be honest its insulting to anyone that has fought for the right to vote that you can't even be arsed to make a educated vote based on the actual affects voting yes v no will have and not just what party is in power.

Sully

Frankly = Word of the Day.

kensutz

Nah

johndoe99

Cabaal wrote: »

By your own logic if the government wanted to hold a referendum on changes to protect children in the constitution or something that would bring a benefit to the citizens of Ireland you'd vote no just because the government wanted it too.

Maybe i was a bit hasty with my wording, but thats low below par to bring children matters into my comments.

Cabaal wrote: »

Frankly I couldn't give a monkeys if you vote no but at least have some self respect and vote no for the right reason.

I am voting no for the right reasons, well my own anyway, which is my right.

Cabaal wrote: »

Frankly I couldn't give a monkeys if you vote no but at least have some self respect.

You don't know me, but to say i have no 'self-respect' by my comments which i have every right to voice, as a mod i'm sure you can insult people and get away with it.

Apologies for splitting your reply into 3 segments.

Sully

johndoe99 wrote: »

Maybe i was a bit hasty with my wording, but thats low below par to bring children matters into my comments.



I am voting no for the right reasons, well my own anyway, which is my right.



You don't know me, but to say i have no 'self-respect' by my comments which i have every right to voice, as a mod i'm sure you can insult people and get away with it.

Apologies for splitting your reply into 3 segments.

You walked into that yourself tho :P Wanna clarify for those interested?

johndoe99

Sully wrote: »

You walked into that yourself tho :P Wanna clarify for those interested?

I did walk into that, no doubt about that, let my fingers get ahead of my brain.

Apologies to Cabaal and others if i offended their views. I have a personal grudge against the goverments policies and let it get the better of me. But will be voting no on the Fiscal Treaty.

Cabaal

johndoe99 wrote: »

Maybe i was a bit hasty with my wording, but thats low below par to bring children matters into my comments.

What I said was only an example, if you want to replace it with same sex rights or anything else that affects people then by all means please do if you believed I was some how trying to undermine you.

Bottom line is if your voting no just because the government supports the vote yes on the matter then its a complete waste of a vote and it does more harm then good...you'd be better off vote spoiling or just not voting at all.

as a mod i'm sure you can insult people and get away with it.

:rolleyes:

As Sully or for that matter any other mod in this forum will point out, I am not a mod in this forum and am another user then same as yourself.

My mod title on other forums has nothing to do with my posts here, if however your upset by my comment then report the post same as you would on any other forum

johndoe99

Cabaal wrote: »

As Sully or for that matter any other mod in this forum will point out, I am not a mod in this forum and am another user then same as yourself.

My mod title on other forums has nothing to do with my posts here, if however your upset by my comment then report the post same as you would on any other forum

no harm done:)

letsbet

Sully wrote: »

The employment rate isn't increasing.

That's not a great claim to fame in fairness as the government had claimed that there'd be a lot more jobs created than there has been. Also it'd be more impressive if the unemployment figures weren't skewed by two key factors.

1. Emigration (you mentionned this earlier but it's more important than I think you acknowledge).
2. JobBridge and other such schemes. In the latest figures there are approximately 10,000 more people on these schemes (c. 70,000 -> 80,000) and they are not counted in the Live Register figures (which is crazy imo). About7,500 of these are on the jobBridge programme. These people cannot really be classified as being employed as companies are contributing peanuts towards their pay with the state still contributing full dole payments in most cases so there's nothing really to be proud of there. 10,000 peple represents about a third of a percentage point on the unemployment rate and if you adjust for that then we're at levels of unemployment even higher than the peak of late last year.

So let's face it, to say that loads of jobs are being created is really hiding the fact that at best things are getting no better in net terms and if anything they're getting worse. If we adjusted for the above two factors we'd get a much better picture of how bad things are and how little has been done despite promises.

Sully

johndoe99 wrote: »

I did walk into that, no doubt about that, let my fingers get ahead of my brain.

Apologies to Cabaal and others if i offended their views. I have a personal grudge against the goverments policies and let it get the better of me. But will be voting no on the Fiscal Treaty.

While its tough, but not as tough as it could be, you have to agree you were well warned this was going to happen. FG/Lab were agreeing to abide by the EU/IMF deal but with some changes. Now, that's not to say that they need to start looking at a top down approach with cuts and stop ****ing around with the lower end of the scale, and that's not to say things could be better in terms of payments, handling of new charges and so on.

decies

Never voted no for a euro treaty before this time having studied the fiscal treaty website , I am studying no. Just not happy with it to be honest. It will take you a few seconds to vote people get out and vote anyways.

Max Powers

Voting yes myself as I think
- balancing budgets is a good thing
- equating the treaty with austerity is incorrect and lazy from the no campaign. No one says this treaty is going to solve everything.
- most of the trade unions, employers groups, major employers is the country and economists say yes is better option.
- If we need more money, we will get it at a cheaper rate if we are in the ESM. If we are out of it, we will still be able to get money, but worse interest terms.
- when you see the likes of Nigel Farage (UKIP) and far right Norweigan parties lookin for us to vote no, my immediate thinking is they are more than likely wrong as well as xenophobes

Most of the no people i speak to are voting no for silly reasons:
- no because i hate the govt
- no because household charge
- no because i dont like angela merkel (even though she is proping up this country)
- no and cant articulate why they are voting no
- no because francois hollande wants to put in other stuff. (Hollande wants to put in some stuff on stimulating growth...hardly soemthing to be worried about. Even if it is contentious stuff he wants to put in, that will have to be agreed)
- no because they think they will send a message

jacquesbernis

Shane Ross..waits til the polls are in then goes with the likely losing side.
The man wouldn't know what to do if he got into power and had to make a decision with consequences.
Economist trying to make theory out of reality..always safer than the alternative..ask Jim Power

Sully

jacquesbernis wrote: »

Shane Ross..waits til the polls are in then goes with the likely losing side.
The man wouldn't know what to do if he got into power and had to make a decision with consequences.
Economist trying to make theory out of reality..always safer than the alternative..ask Jim Power

I wouldn't mind if he took the treaty at face value and gave facts for the reason for his decision, instead he goes on a completely different tangent. Talk about leaning on the fence without getting away from it completely.

AdMMM

Sully wrote: »

I wouldn't mind if he took the treaty at face value and gave facts for the reason for his decision, instead he goes on a completely different tangent. Talk about leaning on the fence without getting away from it completely.

He's in opposition to the referendum being held before its ratified by the countries who drafted it! The only way to secure that is to Vote No and then let the Government come out with "the bad weather on the day meant the little old dears couldn't get out to Vote Yes for us, so we're going to re-run the referendum in August, which just happens to be after Germany and France have finished tinkering with it".

I'm pretty sure that he agrees with much of the text and the treaty itself and that he would call for a Yes vote had Germany and France already ratified it. However, a Yes vote now would give the Government the power to ratify something which could be substantially different in a few months time!

cocoshovel

I admit 100% that I do not know much about the treaty in general, and have only read a small bit about it.
I am voting no, for reason that I feel the yes argument put forward to me just seem to be the same old tripe that is fed to us every time. "Vote yes for jobs!", yeah right. I feel like its almost a threat to make us vote yes, that if we dont then bad things will happen to us. Thats idiotic logic on my half I know as it may be very true.

Either way I know no matter what we vote there still will have to be cut backs and further problems needing to be overcome by the government. Im not a fan of Fine Gael, Labour, or Sinn Fein. Essentially yes I dislike all the main parties in this countries and place little trust in them. (hurr durr hate the government argument?).

No matter how much you read up on it, things will be worded the way they want us to hear it. Im only 20, and have felt let down constantly over the all the past political elections and referendums so I just am not up to trusting anybody. I see a lot of my future votes just being purpously spoilt, and past ones have.

Please tell me how much of a complete fool I am. Im completely open to criticism and info you would like to share on the topic.

Sully

cocoshovel wrote: »

I admit 100% that I do not know much about the treaty in general, and have only read a small bit about it.
I am voting no, for reason that I feel the yes argument put forward to me just seem to be the same old tripe that is fed to us every time. "Vote yes for jobs!", yeah right. I feel like its almost a threat to make us vote yes, that if we dont then bad things will happen to us. Thats idiotic logic on my half I know as it may be very true.

Either way I know no matter what we vote there still will have to be cut backs and further problems needing to be overcome by the government. Im not a fan of Fine Gael, Labour, or Sinn Fein. Essentially yes I dislike all the main parties in this countries and place little trust in them. (hurr durr hate the government argument?).

No matter how much you read up on it, things will be worded the way they want us to hear it. Im only 20, and have felt let down constantly over the all the past political elections and referendums so I just am not up to trusting anybody. I see a lot of my future votes just being purpously spoilt, and past ones have.

Please tell me how much of a complete fool I am. Im completely open to criticism and info you would like to share on the topic.

Would you not just dismiss the politics and just deal with the facts? Your asked to vote on issues that can effect you and future generations. You should research and vote on facts.

I read the treaty. I feel I get a very good grasp. Iv listened to nearly all the arguments fronted by either side. I'd be happy, and have done, to address any question and while I am politically associated with Fine Gael, I tend not to let my political preference get in the way of dealing with facts.

cocoshovel

Sully wrote: »

Would you not just dismiss the politics and just deal with the facts? Your asked to vote on issues that can effect you and future generations. You should research and vote on facts.

I read the treaty. I feel I get a very good grasp. Iv listened to nearly all the arguments fronted by either side. I'd be happy, and have done, to address any question and while I am politically associated with Fine Gael, I tend not to let my political preference get in the way of dealing with facts.

As I said above I havent read up enough on it. I find it hard not to let the political aspect impeach into the facts. Not being a major follower of politics in general, I feel that what it presented as facts can be warped to how each party wants me to see it. Reminds me of the lisbon treaty, although I couldnt vote at the time.

I really need to read up more on this and gain a better knowlege of how these things work, clearly. I can see myself that my reasoning is silly but my I tend to dwell on gut feelings and early impressions I form.

Please try not to judge my character on how I am with politics, I feel like a right tool saying this stuff

Sully

cocoshovel wrote: »

As I said above I havent read up enough on it. I find it hard not to let the political aspect impeach into the facts. Not being a major follower of politics in general, I feel that what it presented as facts can be warped to how each party wants me to see it. Reminds me of the lisbon treaty, although I couldnt vote at the time.

I really need to read up more on this and gain a better knowlege of how these things work, clearly. I can see myself that my reasoning is silly but my I tend to dwell on gut feelings and early impressions I form.

Please try not to judge my character on how I am with politics, I feel like a right tool saying this stuff

But you have been given a right to vote, a right so many across the world are dying for. You should use it, but use it wisely.

Not The Real Scarecrow

My simple opinion is that handing over any power or control over our country to a foreign body is extremely risky. Wars have been fought to gain independence and now we are willing to gladly surrender our autonomy because people are scared that we will no longer be mega wealthy and life might be slightly uncomfortable for a bit(compared to poverty in other countries, Ireland will remain relatively wealthy).
It starts with handing over a little bit of financial control and no one knows where it ends.
Instead of comparing ourselves to countries like Greece and fearing the absolute worst we should be looking at countries like Iceland and trying to copy their ascension from recession.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that they achieved this with little or no help from Europe.

THEIRISHMOB

I think that were fecked if we vote yes and were fecked if we vote no.
But I will be voting no because I don't trust our goverment and after years of lies why trust their advice now....

We have a great country with great people. And we can produce everything we need here in Ireland. We just need to cut the waste in all sectors and we would be fine. But I can never see it happenning because the goverment are afraid of the unions. We need to stand on our own two feet again and show the world what we are made of. And please get back our tourism as it is a way to get billions into the economy.
If I was a toursit I would want to go to an Irish Pub or Hotel or restaurant and be served by Irish Staff and experience Irish culture..after all this is what we were famous for.

God if I was a politicial I would tell it like it is.

Max Powers

THEIRISHMOB wrote: »

I think that were fecked if we vote yes and were fecked if we vote no.
But I will be voting no because I don't trust our goverment and after years of lies why trust their advice now....

We have a great country with great people. And we can produce everything we need here in Ireland. We just need to cut the waste in all sectors and we would be fine. But I can never see it happenning because the goverment are afraid of the unions. QUOTE]


Irish Mob,
These are exactly the reasons why im voting YES; we need (to be blunt), the EU to enforce our own idiot politicians on how to manage a country, they clearly cannot do it and they need a lot of strict guidance in the form of: ''this is how you manage a budget'' etc. This is what the treaty sets out, basic instructions on how to manage a country. If it isnt passed, they are free to borrow and spend like they have done for years now leading us into the mess we are in.