Rally Car Crashes into Spectators in Cavan- Two Dead Seven Injured

De Hipster

hairyprincess wrote: »

'Those rallies', as in rallies in general. I think you knew exactly what I meant.

I detest rallies and always have done. Individual people and groups have fought to get speed limits reduced. There are constant advertisements encouraging people to slow down. And then we have this legalized race, which fine has professional drivers taking part, but it is encouraging 'boy racers' thinking they are the next best thing. And people standing inches away from cars speeding.

There is no sense to it. It is not a sport. And I would 100% back a campaign to ban it. I have always held that opinion, long before the events of today.



A senseless waste of life of course. Do you think it wasn't a waste?

People have died, posters NEED to remember & respect that. Both the victims were avid followers and involved deeply in motorsport for most of their lives, Caroline a competitor and Joe has photographed possibly every event in the country over the years.

They both loved the sport, knew the risks and were very aware of the potential dangers.

Motorsport in Ireland has some of the most stringent safety regulations, Irish motorsport is safer and more strictly regulated that many of our European counterparts - youtube clearly demonstrates the differences.

Motorclubs and the governing body have an impeccable relationship with An Garda Siochana at national and local levels, (AGS also have their own motorclub) and ensure that competitors are law abiding and that any unsavoury behaviour of followers and fans is not only reported but actively discouraged at future events (e.g. recently prosecutions followed Killarney's 2012 rally when boyracers attended in an attempt to bring the event into disrepute).

Many sports are dangerous, stasticially more dangerous than motorsport are fishing and horse-racing (as examples) to call for the banning of all dangerous sports is ridiculous & reactionary - would the people commenting & calling for the ban even know enough to comment 'once' positively on the safe completion of an event - I think not!

Please do not comment further if you do not understand the sport, the rallying community are deeply saddened by the loss of two of their members & will rally together in support of eachother, family and friends of the victims and those in the competing car - who are also victims of this horrible tragedy.

Joe & Caroline - RIP.

Happyman42

My name is URL wrote: »

They chose to stand there. As has been said already, the race marshals can ask people to move, cordon off dangerous spots and advise people on where it is safe to spectate from, but they cannot physically stop people from standing in potential black spots. They just don't have the power to do so on an open stage. It's up to spectators to have a bit of cop on too at the end of the day. People should know that standing on a corner increases the risk of being injured. They take a chance by standing there, the same way drivers take a risk by competing.

What is the problem with stopping the rally until people move? If a crowd in any other stadium gets 'out of control' the game is stopped. You, as an organiser are responsible for protecting people even if it is protecting them from themselves. The crowd in this quarry was 'out of control' the driver should have been stopped or stopped him/herself. It's very simple.

cournioni

6 SPEED wrote: »

I'm very disappointed with the people of Boards and more importantly the moderators of Boards ! A Wife, Son and Daughter have lost their father and a boyfriend has lost his girlfriend and his unborn child. Imagine if any of them people came on here and saw the stuff that was being wrote :
''It cannot be a "freak" accident unless people are well out of harms way''

''What I am saying is that the spectators shouldn't have been where they were''

You are taking those quotes out of context. I do not mean any malice, I am just saying that the safety of the sport should be looked at which I'm sure it will be.

De Hipster

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is the problem with stopping the rally until people move? If a crowd in any other stadium gets 'out of control' the game is stopped. You, as an organiser are responsible for protecting people even if it is protecting them from themselves. The crowd in this quarry was 'out of control' the driver should have been stopped or stopped him/herself. It's very simple.

You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, what quarry?!

...And how exactly was the driver to determine what/how/who was 'out of control'?

Seriously, I suggest that you check the facts of the incident (rather than the press - full of misinformation & made up lazy journalism, shocking), read up on the principles of the sport & when you are suitably knowlegable - then consider making a comment.

Jeez...

Happyman42

De Hipster wrote: »

You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, what quarry?!

...And how exactly was the driver to determine what/how/who was 'out of control'?

Seriously, I suggest that you check the facts of the incident (rather than the press - full of misinformation & made up lazy journalism, shocking), read up on the principles of the sport & when you are suitably knowlegable - then consider making a comment.

Jeez...

I'm not talking about 'the incident'. Try at least to follow the thread before jumping in.:rolleyes:

Jammy Donut

This should be locked.....

At least untill what actually happened is known and comes from a reputable source, not people speculating on what happened.


I will add that I do not believe the driver of the car to be at fault, the idea of a rally is to go as quick as possible over a closed stage.

RIP

De Hipster

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'm not talking about 'the incident'. Try at least to follow the thread before jumping in.:rolleyes:

Oh... I read your previous comments - most were beyond comment, actually contemptuous.

You understand NOTHING of this sport, the competitors, marshals, spectators, regulations and governing body - stop commenting in ignorance PLEASE!

Happyman42

De Hipster wrote: »

Oh... I read your previous comments - most were beyond comment, actually contemptuous.

You understand NOTHING of this sport, the competitors, marshals, spectators, regulations and governing body - stop commenting in ignorance PLEASE!

Can you defend the marshalls in the quarry vid? :rolleyes:

I understand the sport and was once a spectator onsite and still watch RPM from Tyndall Productions on a Thursday night on UTV and sometimes the repeat on RTE 2, I have no problem with the sport, I do have a problem with it's organisers though.

De Hipster

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'm not talking about 'the incident'. Try at least to follow the thread before jumping in.:rolleyes:

Happyman42 wrote: »

Can you defend the marshalls in the quarry vid? :rolleyes:

I understand the sport and was once a spectator onsite and still watch RPM from Tyndall Productions on a Thursday night on UTV and sometimes the repeat on RTE 2, I have no problem with the sport, I do have a problem with it's organisers though.

It's organisers? Who is that - Motorsport Ireland, the FIA, the Regional & National Clubs, the event coordinators, marshals & volunteer groups...

WHO exactly is your 'problem' with...I'm sure they be delighted to educate and inform you in relation to where the majority of the real problems actually lie. Spectating & watching TV does not an expert make.

Also I don't think it appropriate to comment on a random video of a quarry event, which I did not organise, volunteer or spectate at and which is neither related to the event in question nor rallying on national roads...

Happyman42

De Hipster wrote: »

expert

Your 'experts' failed at the weekend, tragically failed. If you don't want to discuss ways of preventing that happening again don't take part in the discussion.
I can point out again and again incidents where safety was ignored, and that contradict all the claims of organiser's desire to prevent spectator injury. The simple action is to take the instrument (the car) of danger out of the equation until the situation is safe. Happens every day of the week in other sports, happens in what is the much safer environment of Grand Prix racing too (it's no accident that it is called 'The Safety Car')
As I said, responsible others will see to it that Rallying cleans up it's act if they don't do it themselves and that's a good thing.

opinion guy

Didn't Audi withdraw from rallying in 1986 after a fatal accident swearing never to return until crowd safety issues were resolved ?

De Hipster

opinion guy wrote: »

Didn't Audi withdraw from rallying in 1986 after a fatal accident swearing never to return until crowd safety issues were resolved ?

Yes - they are currently heavily involved in the sport developmentally and competively on a world level through the VW & skoda teams - same company.

red sean

Happyman42, can you not go troll on a less sad and emotional forum please.

De Hipster

Happyman42 wrote: »

Your 'experts' failed at the weekend, tragically failed. If you don't want to discuss ways of preventing that happening again don't take part in the discussion.
I can point out again and again incidents where safety was ignored, and that contradict all the claims of organiser's desire to prevent spectator injury. The simple action is to take the instrument (the car) of danger out of the equation until the situation is safe. Happens every day of the week in other sports, happens in what is the much safer environment of Grand Prix racing too (it's no accident that it is called 'The Safety Car')
As I said, responsible others will see to it that Rallying cleans up it's act if they don't do it themselves and that's a good thing.

If you want to misquote & continue to ramble incoherently around various aspects of unrelated sports - feel free. I will not be responding further to your baitings...

Dyr

So are we agreed that driving car's really fast on country roads is potentially very dangerous?

On a related note I've found myself reading a lot of the rallying enthusiasts posts in a cavan/louth accent.

. People should know that standing on a corner increases the risk of being injured. They take a chance by standing there, the same way drivers take a risk by competing.

the problem there is that participants would probably sign a waiver saying that they understand the risks in taking part. You can't hold joe public who's standing in a public place to that standard.

Happyman42

red sean wrote: »

Happyman42, can you not go troll on a less sad and emotional forum please.

Have you rung TV and Radio stations and asked them not to comment?
My regret and condolences with the victims of this tragedy is implicit in my call for organisers to up the ante in crowd control.
I work on a major sporting event in this country and one or two other events attended by crowds and I know the level of crowd safety proceedure required and I know what happens when people endanger themselves.
I just wish people would comment on what is posted and stop trying to censor debate which is going to happen anyway.

De Hipster

Bambi wrote: »

So are we agreed that driving car's really fast on country roads is potentially very dangerous?

On a related note I've found myself reading a lot of the rallying enthusiasts posts in a cavan/louth accent.



the problem there is that participants would probably sign a waiver saying that they understand the risks in taking part. You can't hold joe public who's standing in a public place to that standard.

This is very true, however the clubs and governing body take every available opportunity to attempt to educate the attending public - TV & radio advert campaigns in conjunction with the RSA - 'Keep the Race in it's Place', local press segments about the safety standards and the structure of stages. Explanations of the safety signage erected at access points, guides to safe viewing, warnings about having children at events, the potential dangers etc...all posted in press, the rally event programme etc.

Organisers cannot force people to read these & really do make every effort to ensure the utmost safety of event volunteers, competitors, residents and spectators over the length of the event closed route & between stages on public roads.

Happyman42

De Hipster wrote: »

If you want to misquote & continue to ramble incoherently around various aspects of unrelated sports - feel free. I will not be responding further to your baitings...

Whatever. You have refused to comment on what I posted and decided to go on a personal attack on me and my 'knowledge' and now I'm 'baiting'? Very good! :rolleyes:

The Big Red Button

Bambi wrote: »

So are we agreed that driving car's really fast on country roads is potentially very dangerous?

Apart from anything else, the cars don't even get up to particularly high speeds. The challenge in these rallies is the difficulty of the stage, with corners and uneven surfaces, etc. It's not like a Grand Prix! The car involved was a Mark 2 Escort - how fast do you think they can go? Cars drive every bit as fast on country roads every day/night of the week - the difference is, this is a controlled environment.

Bambi wrote: »

On a related note I've found myself reading a lot of the rallying enthusiasts posts in a cavan/louth accent.

That's quite strange.

Tigger

chatterpillar wrote: »

Apart from anything else, the cars don't even get up to particularly high speeds. The challenge in these rallies is the difficulty of the stage, with corners and uneven surfaces, etc. It's not like a Grand Prix! The car involved was a Mark 2 Escort - how fast do you think they can go? Cars drive every bit as fast on country roads every day/night of the week - the difference is, this is a controlled environment.

It was hardly a mk2 popular 1.1 now
They go fast enough

Happyman42

chatterpillar wrote: »

Apart from anything else, the cars don't even get up to particularly high speeds. The challenge in these rallies is the difficulty of the stage, with corners and uneven surfaces, etc. It's not like a Grand Prix! The car involved was a Mark 2 Escort - how fast do you think they can go? Cars drive every bit as fast on country roads every day/night of the week - the difference is, this is a controlled environment.

:eek: You see this type of thing everyday?????????

http://chrisescars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/20070801_Ford-Escort-Mk2-RS2000.jpg

Dyr

chatterpillar wrote: »

Apart from anything else, the cars don't even get up to particularly high speeds. The challenge in these rallies is the difficulty of the stage, with corners and uneven surfaces, etc. It's not like a Grand Prix! The car involved was a Mark 2 Escort - how fast do you think they can go?

fast enough to become airborne and leave the road, I guess?

this is a controlled environment.

Well actually no it isn't

The Big Red Button

Bambi wrote: »

fast enough to become airborne and leave the road, I guess?

Obviously, yes.

As are ordinary cars, which we drive every day, under normal conditions.

Bambi wrote: »

Well actually no it isn't

Well, actually, yes, it is a controlled environment.

Similar to other sports, though, there is naturally still a risk there.

You can't account for every possible accident. Any rally spectator knows the risks involved - and, these two who died, even moreso than most.

Paddy@CIRL

The amount of people who are spouting all sorts of nonsense on this issue is staggering. Do you just sit around all year waiting for something bad to happen so you can wade in with your ill informed opinions and f*ck all experience, just so you can feel good about yourselves? What's the view like from your high horse?

What happened yesterday was a tragedy. There are countless events run here every year where the events, thankfully, run safely with no injuries to spectators, volunteers or crews. However, anyone attending any motorsport event is well aware of the danger. Things can and do go wrong - mechanical failures, a missed note, driver error but there is only so much that the organizers of an event can do to keep everyone safe. To their credit, anytime I've worked a Motorsport Ireland event, safety is always their top priority - for marshals, spectators and media alike. If the marshals, spectator control or clerk of the course are unhappy with where people have assembled to watch, they will cancel the stage. There's definitely not a 'that'll do' attitude as suggested by some here.

My full time profession is automotive photography and the majority of my work is based around live events such as rallying, touring cars, drifting, endurance racing etc. Since I was a kid, it was bet into me that 'MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS' and the safest place to watch is from your living room. You can take all the precautions necessary but you still need to be aware that you're constantly at risk.

My thoughts and condolences are with the friends & families of Mr. Lane & Ms. Cleary, the driver and navigator of the car involved and all of those affected by yesterday's tragedy.

RIP.

De Hipster

chatterpillar wrote: »

Obviously, yes.

As are ordinary cars, which we drive every day, under normal conditions.



Well, actually, yes, it is a controlled environment.

Similar to other sports, though, there is naturally still a risk there.

You can't account for every possible accident. Any rally spectator knows the risks involved - and, these two who died, even moreso than most.

I completely agree with you for the most part, unfortunately not all spectators understand the risks, or if they do choose to ignore the safety aspects and respect marshals...

Unfortunately the TV coverage that the sport craves can and has created a small contingent of inconsistant followers who deem themselves experts & really do not respect nor completely understand the reality of the dangers when they place themselves and competitors at risk by compromising safety at events. But that is for another conversation...

ScumLord

I love Motorsport but I do think rally fans are a bit to flippant with regards safety. You'll quite often see them standing in the run off areas during and after rallies. 99% of the time nothing happens but if something is going to happen they're put themselves right in the firing line. People that don't know Motorsport may be able to plead ignorance but anyone that knows anything about racing knows where cars that have pushed the limits to much will more than likely end up after they've lost control on a corner.

Organisers should put more effort (or be given the power to) keep people out of the few spots that are known to be really dangerous but it's up to the drivers and spectators to force that issue through. Formula 1 didn't change until drivers and fans stopped going to races in protest to safety conditions.

Happyman42

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

The amount of people who are spouting all sorts of nonsense on this issue is staggering. Do you just sit around all year waiting for something bad to happen so you can wade in with your ill informed opinions and f*ck all experience, just so you can feel good about yourselves? What's the view like from your high horse?

What happened yesterday was a tragedy. There are countless events run here every year where the events, thankfully, run safely with no injuries to spectators, volunteers or crews. However, anyone attending any motorsport event is well aware of the danger. Things can and do go wrong - mechanical failures, a missed note, driver error but there is only so much that the organizers of an event can do to keep everyone safe. To their credit, anytime I've worked a Motorsport Ireland event, safety is always their top priority - for marshals, spectators and media alike. If the marshals, spectator control or clerk of the course are unhappy with where people have assembled to watch, they will cancel the stage. There's definitely not a 'that'll do' attitude as suggested by some here.

My full time profession is automotive photography and the majority of my work is based around live events such as rallying, touring cars, drifting, endurance racing etc. Since I was a kid, it was bet into me that 'MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS' and the safest place to watch is from your living room. You can take all the precautions necessary but you still need to be aware that you're constantly at risk.



RIP.

Instead of flaming those with an opinion, can you suggest how this can be avoided in the future?
Could you also, look at the video I posted earlier and honestly answer the following questions I have? (as most of the people defending rally organisers seem to be conveinently ignoring it)
1. How can you defend the rally in the video continuing with spectators standing where they where?
2. Do you think that sports should protect people from themselves and if you do, how would you do that?

Fighting Irish

6 SPEED wrote: »

I'm very disappointed with the people of Boards and more importantly the moderators of Boards ! A Wife, Son and Daughter have lost their father and a boyfriend has lost his girlfriend and his unborn child. Imagine if any of them people came on here and saw the stuff that was being wrote :
''It cannot be a "freak" accident unless people are well out of harms way''

''What I am saying is that the spectators shouldn't have been where they were''

Over on rallyforums.com which is a dedicated site for Irish Rallying they handled the situation very well be locking the thread and releasing OFFICIAL news when it was released by an OFFICIAL source and locking it again,etc. Just a bit of common sense prevails here for some people.

Not many people has said this in the 10 pages so far but ... Rest In Peace Joe and Caroline, two very committed people to Rallying. These people weren't normal rally fans, Joe had been involved with rallying longer than I'm alive and that's 20 years while Caroline was a Navigator and was involved with the Organising committees for some events.

TIP FOR MODS - Lock this thread and only post OFFICIAL FACTS AND REPORTS about the matter and that will stop people jumping to conclusions

EDIT- Fair enough the first post was an official statement

blah blah blah, let people have an opinion

upandcumming

6 SPEED wrote: »

I'm very disappointed with the people of Boards and more importantly the moderators of Boards ! A Wife, Son and Daughter have lost their father and a boyfriend has lost his girlfriend and his unborn child. Imagine if any of them people came on here and saw the stuff that was being wrote :
''It cannot be a "freak" accident unless people are well out of harms way''

''What I am saying is that the spectators shouldn't have been where they were''

Over on rallyforums.com which is a dedicated site for Irish Rallying they handled the situation very well be locking the thread and releasing OFFICIAL news when it was released by an OFFICIAL source and locking it again,etc. Just a bit of common sense prevails here for some people.

Not many people has said this in the 10 pages so far but ... Rest In Peace Joe and Caroline, two very committed people to Rallying. These people weren't normal rally fans, Joe had been involved with rallying longer than I'm alive and that's 20 years while Caroline was a Navigator and was involved with the Organising committees for some events.

TIP FOR MODS - Lock this thread and only post OFFICIAL FACTS AND REPORTS about the matter and that will stop people jumping to conclusions

EDIT- Fair enough the first post was an official statement

I wouldn't mind rallyforums.com... used to be a great site, now its a dump. You can't say or do anything without being banned.

De Hipster

ScumLord wrote: »

I love Motorsport but I do think rally fans are a bit to flippant with regards safety. You'll quite often see them standing in the run off areas during and after rallies. 99% of the time nothing happens but if something is going to happen they're put themselves right in the firing line. People that don't know Motorsport may be able to plead ignorance but anyone that knows anything about racing knows where cars that have pushed the limits to much will more than likely end up after they've lost control on a corner.

Organisers should put more effort (or be given the power to) keep people out of the few spots that are known to be really dangerous but it's up to the drivers and spectators to force that issue through. Formula 1 didn't change until drivers and fans stopped going to races in protest to safety conditions.

The only real way this can be achieved is to follow the Spanish system, police at each and every junction where if spectators, cross a 'live stage', or do not obey marshals and safety regulations they are charged on the spot.

I witnessed this while attending the WRC event in recent years - harsh but effective, but then again only effective where the police are, if spectators are visible to them @ junctions. Impossible in manpower terms to police every stage mile this way - access points and junctions only, which stills leaves areas where spectators walk further into the stage as vulnerable.

BUBBLE WRAP

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are you going to tell us why?


The cars is going way to SLOW! no excitment.

Would you have sent your children to a soccer match in the 80's before crowd control and spectator violence was stamped out? Cost a lot of money but it was done and the game as an entertainment didn't suffer one bit.
What will happen here is the decision will be taken out of Rallying's hands by responsible authorities.

Yes I would, it would do them no harm. Tuffen them up.
also That reply made me LOL, reason you ask? Becouse it funny.

Paddy@CIRL

Happyman42 wrote: »

Instead of flaming those with an opinion, can you suggest how this can be avoided in the future?
Could you also, look at the video I posted earlier and honestly answer the following questions I have? (as most of the people defending rally organisers seem to be conveinently ignoring it)
1. How can you defend the rally in the video continuing with spectators standing where they where?
2. Do you think that sports should protect people from themselves and if you do, how would you do that?

I wouldn't class the sort of nonsense some people are throwing about as an 'opinion'.

As with regards to that video, I just looked at the parts of the clip you mentioned in your original post. In the first instance (circa 50 seconds) the car is coming out of a first gear left hand corner with the spectators standing on a high bank. I'd personally have no problems standing there myself, as it's a relatively safe spot. Same goes for the second part you mentioned (circa 2m50s) although by rights, they should be standing on the left hand side of the road, not the right (you're nearly always safer on the inside of a corner than the outside). On a whole, that particular video has a lot more bark than bite - the car is never traveling that fast as the stage is too rough, it's just a lot of noise and engine revolutions in low gears, which some people mistake for speed.

Have you any motorsport experience out of curiosity?

Also, I don't think it's fair to use random YouTube videos to form an opinion / create an argument. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could probably find videos that show the dangers of tiddlywinks.

Dave!

Has there been anything released yet which reveals what actually happened? Were the spectators on a corner?

No anecdotes please... I presume an investigation is being conducted, or has already been.

Paddy@CIRL

Dave! wrote: »

Has there been anything released yet which reveals what actually happened? Were the spectators on a corner?

No anecdotes please... I presume an investigation is being conducted, or has already been.

The accident took place after a small jump AFAIK (based on the words of some those interviewed at the scene). AGS & MSI are both carrying out their own investigations and it'll be some time before we know the full story of what happened.

bbam

chatterpillar wrote: »

Apart from anything else, the cars don't even get up to particularly high speeds. The challenge in these rallies is the difficulty of the stage, with corners and uneven surfaces, etc. It's not like a Grand Prix! The car involved was a Mark 2 Escort - how fast do you think they can go? Cars drive every bit as fast on country roads every day/night of the week - the difference is, this is a controlled environment.



That's quite strange.

Hard to believe you think specially constructed and tuned rally cars go no faster on these roads than regular traffic.
The cars on these stages travel at multiples of the speed that regular traffic does. They would be travelling in excess of 100mph on roads where the usual traffic speed would be 40mph. They would be driving fully committed into blind bends where regular traffic slows with caution due to the risk of oncoming traffic.
I live close to where this unfortunate incident happened and regular traffic would never be approaching that stretch of road at that speed.

It's rough on the families involved. One can only imagine getting such a phonecall.

Ghost Buster

homer_simpson wrote: »

Really? On what grounds? What motorclub , rally and when was this. Im intrigued because its the first I've heard of it and it would have been smewhat a landmark case for many reasons regardless of what the charges were if you've won. Any links???

Read it again. i never said that this was as part of a rally or club. I had two of the same family in court for dangerous and reckless driving outside of a rally . i was the representative of a group of neighbours in a rural area who took the action.

De Hipster

Dave! wrote: »

Has there been anything released yet which reveals what actually happened? Were the spectators on a corner?

No anecdotes please... I presume an investigation is being conducted, or has already been.

There are currently two investigations underway - Garda & Motorsport Ireland. Time will tell, until then ...tabloid, broadsheet & internet forum speculation & conjecture is what's available I'm afraid.

Ironically having been in the vicinity, knowing some of the people involved, the Sun's coverage is substantially more factual & better researched than the Independent's - of today's paper articles that I've seen.

bbam

Dave! wrote: »

Has there been anything released yet which reveals what actually happened? Were the spectators on a corner?

No anecdotes please... I presume an investigation is being conducted, or has already been.

The road is virtually straight where the accident happened. The bridge is quite severe, and talking to one local lad who co-drives you need to get the jump right, the width means you can land with the back end still on the rise which can kick it up badly.
Haven't heard anything about what happened in this case.

Dyr

chatterpillar wrote: »

Obviously, yes.

As are ordinary cars, which we drive every day, under normal conditions.



Well, actually, yes, it is a controlled environment.

Similar to other sports, though, there is naturally still a risk there.

You can't account for every possible accident. Any rally spectator knows the risks involved - and, these two who died, even moreso than most.

orly? please explain why the general public can easily access this controlled environment so.

A boxing ring in a stadium with event management is a controlled environment. A road in cavan is not.

Happyman42

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

I wouldn't class the sort of nonsense some people are throwing about as an 'opinion'.

As with regards to that video, I just looked at the parts of the clip you mentioned in your original post. In the first instance (circa 50 seconds) the car is coming out of a first gear left hand corner with the spectators standing on a high bank. I'd personally have no problems standing there myself, as it's a relatively safe spot. Same goes for the second part you mentioned (circa 2m50s) although by rights, they should be standing on the left hand side of the road, not the right (you're nearly always safer on the inside of a corner than the outside). On a whole, that particular video has a lot more bark than bite - the car is never traveling that fast as the stage is too rough, it's just a lot of noise and engine revolutions in low gears, which some people mistake for speed.

Have you any motorsport experience out of curiosity?

Also, I don't think it's fair to use random YouTube videos to form an opinion / create an argument. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could probably find videos that show the dangers of tiddlywinks.

'by rights'?? This is the ambivalence to safety I am talking about. They shouldn't be there while the cars are moving, the event was in a closed quarry and the marshalls could have taken any action they saw fit. Normally these events are run for fund raisers so admission could have been denied if the offenders persisted.
It is still my contention, from experience, that the will is not there.

Paddy@CIRL

Happyman42 wrote: »

'by rights'?? This is the ambivalence to safety I am talking about. They shouldn't be there while the cars are moving, the event was in a closed quarry and the marshalls could have taken any action they saw fit. Normally these events are run for fund raisers so admission could have been denied if the offenders persisted.
It is still my contention, from experience, that the will is not there.

They didn't die, nor were they injured so where they stood was fine. If it was me, I would have stood on the left but it's hard to tell from on-board footage alone. Nobody attends a rally with the intention of getting themselves or others hurt.

Again I ask you, have you any experience with Motorsports?

Happyman42

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

They didn't die, nor were they injured so where they stood was fine.

Ah sure that's fine then. :rolleyes:

If you are asking, 'have I driven a Rally car'? the answer is no. What that has to do with spectator safety and crowd control I don't know.

barney 20v

Just to put a human side to this folks.....I have had the pleasure of meeting Joe countless times over the years on events we worked at , he was always genuine and passionate about motorsport and was a great role model to the younger people we have had Marshalling with us over the years.
He was simply part of the furniture at the events and we always tried to accomodate him when ever we met and enjoyed his company .

I am a member of Wexford Motor Club and i knew Caroline well, she is what i'd call a typical motorsport enthusiast and i will miss her greatly.

I personally am still in shock to be honest, rallying is in every county on this island but the rallying community is a small one and i think we all are feeling this greatly.

With regards to safety at these events i will admit that dangers do exist and that improvment is possible but Motorsport Ireland have in place some of the best systems designed to minimise the dangers and to educate the general public as to the risks.

I have undergone several Motorsport Ireland courses totally focused on event safety and i am one of a new type of Marshal trained by Motorsport Ireland called a sector marshal.

Last year alone i worked at 14 multistage events , please folks try to remember that the marshals are volunteers who genuinely love the sport and love giving something back to it.
I personally love the social side to the events... standing waiting for long hours with people like Joe and Caroline having the craic and anticipating more...
My deepest sympathies to both families and to all those injured or involved RIP Joe and Caroline

Paddy@CIRL

Happyman42 wrote: »

Ah sure that's fine then. :rolleyes:

If you are asking, 'have I driven a Rally car'? the answer is no. What that has to do with spectator safety and crowd control I don't know.

Well it is, they returned home safe right? You can't say it's safe / unsafe from that footage.

I'm not asking if you've ever driven a rally car and I'm not going to use it as a chance to pop a sly remark at you either. There are ill-informed arguments on both sides of this, but having a good comprehension of how motorsport works is essential to understanding things when they do go wrong.

What happened yesterday is not a fair representation of what happens at a rally or any motorsport event which takes place in Ireland.

Happyman42

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Well it is, they returned home safe right? You can't say it's safe / unsafe from that footage.

Have you ever done a risk assessment? Because you answered one of the questions that would be asked in a RA earlier. 'by rights, they should be on the other side of the road'.
Rallying has to find a way to implement proper crowd control, other sports have done it, albeit at great cost and hassle, but they achieved it. Leaving things to chance is not good enough.

Orando Broom

Designated viewing areas and stage commanders and Drivers themselves shut the rally down if people view outside the safe zones. The Co-Drivers have to report back if people are on the track, (standing on a hedge is 'on the track'. It sounds draconian but it's the only way. I've marshalled at rallys and to be frank a marshal is about as useful as a bale and safety tape.

if you exercise any cautionary behaviour you are laughed at and sneered at. You can only ask people politely. You are more often than not ignored.

Having said all that it is a tragedy for all concerned, especially the families of the bereved and the injured but a lot of orgnaisers who have put huge efforts in to making this sport safe and enjoyable will have to carry a burden with them as will the unfortunate driver.

Rallying has gotten faster and faster, there is pressure on guys to push harder and harder and thus the risks, from the spectator point of view, has unfortunately increased. I'd even question allowing the likes of the older cars such as the RS2000's compete against the Imprezas and the Evolutions.

That car was in or around 30 years old that crashed yesterday.

Paddy@CIRL

Happyman42 wrote: »

Have you ever done a risk assessment? Because you answered one of the questions that would be asked in a RA earlier. 'by rights, they should be on the other side of the road'.
Rallying has to find a way to implement proper crowd control, other sports have done it, albeit at great cost and hassle, but they achieved it. Leaving things to chance is not good enough.

Jesus wept, you're still talking about another unrelated event, where nobody was hurt. Long after you've grown tired of your little online crusade against rallying, and have moved on to something else, there will be those of us who will still be in love with this sport and doing everything we can to protect it and those who come to compete and spectate.

If you don't like motorsport, fine. But please stop dragging up the same old **** as it doesn't affect you. If you think you can do something to help, or have ideas that maybe of benefit to the rallying community, please get in touch with Motorsport Ireland on their website - http://www.motorsportireland.com

christmas2012

rip

Paddy@CIRL

Orando Broom wrote: »

That car was in or around 30 years old that crashed yesterday.

When it was originally built, it was around 30 years old but how recently was it rebuilt to meet safety standards? They might be 'old' cars to the untrained eye, but everyone of them has to meet modern safety standards or they can't compete. These are often new, modern cars underneath an 'old' skin.

Happyman42

Orando Broom wrote: »

I've marshalled at rallys and to be frank a marshal is about as useful as a bale and safety tape.

if you exercise any cautionary behaviour you are laughed at and sneered at. You can only ask people politely. You are more often than not ignored.

You are right! They don't like being challenged, do they?:rolleyes:

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Jesus wept, you're still talking about another unrelated event, where nobody was hurt. Long after you've grown tired of your little online crusade against rallying, and have moved on to something else, there will be those of us who will still be in love with this sport and doing everything we can to protect it and those who come to compete and spectate.

If you don't agree with that, fine. But please stop dragging up the same old **** as it doesn't affect you. If you think you can do something to help, or have ideas that maybe of benefit to the rallying community, please get in touch with Motorsport Ireland on their website - http://www.motorsportireland.com