The "Irish" Field Marshall Montgomery

pedroeibar1

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

A little off topic but he would have been of value in the present day given the political decisions to use military force in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past decade. The author of 'a brave new world' Huxley is quoted as saying/ observing "that men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." In this case Ireland was one of the earliest examples of successful Guerilla warfare tactics and the methods of tackling this type of combatant does not seem to have evolved given some of the mistakes made in the current era.

I don’t agree with the comment on Montgomery. He would be a disaster in a guerrilla war; he did not have the necessary mindset – he was predictable (as Delancey said above in #23 ) and too rigid, whereas to be successful in counter-insurgency a general has to be extremely fluid. Back in the ‘60’s Robert Tabor hit the nail in his ‘War of the Flea’ saying a fixed army is like a dog fighting fleas: it has too much to defend against a tiny, agile and motivated enemy. The British Army has fought in conflicts that were guerrilla wars for centuries and its Higher Command never seems to have got the message. The First Afghan War & massacre of Lord Elphinstone’s ‘exodus’ was won by the ‘Afghans’ through use of guerrilla tactics. The subsequent Punjab wars were similar. The Boers fought using guerrilla tactics, as did the Arabs in the WWI Middle East campaign, the Irish War of Indep, the Malays in ‘47, Aden, Cyprus, etc. And those are the ones that they fought in; add to that those they observed, such as Indochine, Mao, Algeria, various African countries, Guevara, etc. Control appears to be inculcated in ranks above colonel.

Those officers who did understand guerrilla tactics initially faced huge challenges in setting up guerrilla units – Lawrence in the Middle East, Wingate & his Chindits, Stirling with the SAS, etc. Even the SOE in WWII faced major issues in obtaining support. Those who were able to ‘do their own thing’ though default, such as Freddie Spencer Chapman* against the Japanese in occupied Malaya, never really got the necessary support.

There was a general in Northern Ireland back in the ‘70’s who said +/- ‘we will win because we have ha fa pah’ (higher fire power) and the statement coupled with his OTT accent seemed so totally incongruous that I remember it!

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The author of 'a brave new world' Huxley is quoted as saying/ observing "that men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."

Spot on.

* Chapman was a fascinating character, wrote 'The Jungle is Neutral' about his fight against the Japs; also was a pioneering explorer in Greenland mapping locations for airfields in the 1930's and a Himalayan climber. His biography by Moynihan from a couple of years ago is a good read.

slowburner

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

A little off topic but he would have been of value in the present day given the political decisions to use military force in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past decade. The author of 'a brave new world' Huxley is quoted as saying/ observing "that men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." In this case Ireland was one of the earliest examples of successful Guerilla warfare tactics and the methods of tackling this type of combatant does not seem to have evolved given some of the mistakes made in the current era.

We often hear that the Irish were amongst the originators of guerrilla tactics - is it a myth?
'Twould be an interesting thread.

dubhthach

slowburner wrote: »

We often hear that the Irish were amongst the originators of guerrilla tactics - is it a myth?
'Twould be an interesting thread.

If we were surely it would be known as "cogadhán" or "Coghadhaín" warfare

The term of course comes into English from Spanish to describe the Guerrilla war fought by the Spanish against the French during the Peninsular war and literally means "little war".

Goya's famous painting "The third of May 1808" depicts the execution by firing squad of Spanish Guerrillas by the French

tac foley

The Chinese general and strategist Sun Tzu, in his The Art of War (6th century BC), was one of the first proponents of the use of guerrilla warfare. The earliest description of guerrilla warfare is an alleged battle between Emperor Huaung and the Miao in China. Guerrilla warfare was not unique to China, nomadic and migratory tribes such as the Scythians, Goths, and Huns used elements of guerrilla warfare to fight the Persian Empire, Roman Empire, and Alexander the Great. In the Classic Ancient world, this kind of warfare was indirectly mentioned by the Greeks in Homeric stories, but usually as hit and run acts of foraging or booty in enemy territory, pretty much as later Vikings piracy. The Romans and Carthaginians learned of these tactics more as intended warfare by the Iberians before Viriathus and Hamilcar Barca in campaigns in Sicily against them.

'Harrying fighting' as it was called, was the predominant form of 'battle' used by the Celts and Germans against the Romans in NW Europe. In the end, the Romans gave up trying to take Germany as a result of the efforts of Arminius.

tac

pedroeibar1

I doubt that the inhabitants of Ireland were ‘originators’ although the Celts were appearing here and using bronze swords in 600BC when Sun-tzu wrote ‘The Art of War.’ That possibly has the first reference to guerrilla warfare, when he wrote that the ‘terrorist fish swims undetected in the sea of the citizenry who are sympathetic to his cause’ which was copied by Mao Zedong as ‘The guerrillas must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea’

edit - sorry Tac, took a phonecall before hitting posting tab and crossed with you.

Manach

It could be argued that British domestic politics were at play as well. There was an expectation of a peace dividend which could hardly be progressed whilst they were involved in Ireland. Previous suppression of Irish dissent did not have to factor in this, in fact would have looked unfavourable on any perceived softening of the stance on Ireland.

Jawgap

Nobody seems to have mentioned Alan Brooke, Fermanagh-man and Chief of the Imperial General Staff for most of WWII. He did a lot of the organising, strategising etc that went with the British war effort.

His greatest contribution was probably keeping some form of manners on Churchill. His frienship with Montgomery no doubt contributed to the latter's significant appointments.

Other notable Irish commanders were

Air Vice Marshall Richard Saul (Dublin) - AOC 12 Group during the Battle of Britain

Air Chief Marshall Percy Bernard, (Cork) - AOC 224 Group in Burmah

Brig. JOE Vandeleur (Clare) - OC 3rd Battalion Irish Guards he during Operation Market-Garden (his cousin Giles commanded 2nd Armoured Battalion Irish Guards during the same operation)

At 'lower' levels there were plenty of other notables (in the RAF, anyway) - The Beamish brothers from Cork (Victor, George, Charles, and Cecil) - 2 ended up as Group Captains, one an Air Marshall and another an Air Vice Marshall as well as playing the odd game of rugby for Ireland, and winning a few games of golf.
- Brendan Finucane from Dublin, youngest Wing Commander in the history of the RAF
- 'Mick' Mannock from Cork, WWI Ace

Richard Holmes notes that the tradition of Scottish and Irish families in the British Army can be traced back to the early nineteenth century until emigration took over. Before that the only 'outlet' for second and younger sons in particular was service in the Army or Navy - or if they didn't fancy that, the church

In his description Holmes notes that the British Army was largely officered by Scots and Irish -I think he estimates that the early Victorian army was about 45% Scots and Irish officers - that kind of set up the tradition of certain families sending sons to serve.

Delancey

A couple of ' asides ' - Field Marshal Brook was first cousin of Sir Basil Brook ( later Lord Brookeborough ) the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland - although rarely photographed together their physical resemblance was uncanny.

The Vandeleurs were a long-established land-owning family.Many here will recall from their school history books photographs of an eviction taking place in the West of Ireland with police standing by while a battering ram is used to break down the cottage walls - that eviction was from a Vandeleur estate.

Jawgap

Lt Col Blair Mayne? an early OC of the SAS during WWII - also an Irish international rugby player.

Irish admirals in the 20th Century seem to be a bit scarce!

Snickers Man

Jawgap wrote: »

Nobody seems to have mentioned Alan Brooke, Fermanagh-man and Chief of the Imperial General Staff for most of WWII. He did a lot of the organising, strategising etc that went with the British war effort.

His greatest contribution was probably keeping some form of manners on Churchill. His frienship with Montgomery no doubt contributed to the latter's significant appointments.

Other notable Irish commanders were

Air Vice Marshall Richard Saul (Dublin) - AOC 12 Group during the Battle of Britain

Air Chief Marshall Percy Bernard, (Cork) - AOC 224 Group in Burmah

Brig. JOE Vandeleur (Clare) - OC 3rd Battalion Irish Guards he during Operation Market-Garden (his cousin Giles commanded 2nd Armoured Battalion Irish Guards during the same operation)

At 'lower' levels there were plenty of other notables (in the RAF, anyway) - The Beamish brothers from Cork (Victor, George, Charles, and Cecil) - 2 ended up as Group Captains, one an Air Marshall and another an Air Vice Marshall as well as playing the odd game of rugby for Ireland, and winning a few games of golf.
- Brendan Finucane from Dublin, youngest Wing Commander in the history of the RAF
- 'Mick' Mannock from Cork, WWI Ace

Mannock wasn't Irish. At all.

His place of birth is uncertain and his dad was a soldier. He could have been born anywhere. His parents were English and Scottish and he was brought up in India and England.

Jawgap

Snickers Man wrote: »

Mannock wasn't Irish. At all.

His place of birth is uncertain and his dad was a soldier. He could have been born anywhere. His parents were English and Scottish and he was brought up in India and England.

His place of birth is generally accepted as Ballincollig, although it's not conclusive. His older brother was born in Aldershot and Edward, if he wasn't born in Ballincollig was probably born in Brighton. The confusion is due to the fact that his father enlisted under his mother's maiden name (Corringhame)

His parents were indeed English and Scottish and his father was a corporal so he moved not necessarily where his father went. While his father was in Egypt he and his mother and brother went back to Cork. He also lived in Dundalk for a bit.

When the dad's term of enlistment was up, he re-enlisted this time under Mannock and was sent to India where the family joined him a few months later

His 'Irishness' was fairly evident - Despite being christened Edward, he was nick-named 'Mick' and while in the RAMC he was nick-named 'Paddy' - apart from demonstrating a complete lack of imagination in the formulation of nick-names this suggests that he was perceived as Irish to those who knew him at first hand.

Also Captain W E Johns, who met him described him thus
“Irish by birth, he displayed all the impetuosity of the Irish. He was, of course, a fearless fighter. He was also a brilliant leader and exponent of the air combat tactics of his time.”

and there are plenty of other writers with first hand experience of meeting him who describe him as Irish

He was also mad as a box of frogs, although there's plenty of evidence to show he was actually suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.

He was a strong supporter of Irish Home Rule and an ardent socialist -which may have contributed to the 'English' being happy to distance themselves from him, until more recently when his abilities were better recognised.

hivizman

Delancey wrote: »

A couple of ' asides ' - Field Marshal Brooke was first cousin of Sir Basil Brooke ( later Lord Brookeborough ) the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland - although rarely photographed together their physical resemblance was uncanny.

There's a (copyright) photo of Brookeborough here that could almost be the mirror image of the famous (also, alas, copyright) photo of Alanbrooke by Karsh of Ottawa that is available here. Search "Viscount Brookeborough" on Google Images to see both photos together.

By the way, Alanbrooke was actually born in France and lived there until he was 16, but he considered that his roots were in Fermanagh - his first wife was a close neighbour of the Brooke family in Fermanagh.

Another "by the way" - Colebrooke Park, the Brooke family home in Fermanagh, was featured last night (Thursday 14 June 2012) on Channel 4's Country House Rescue programme.

A final "by the way" - Earl Alexander of Tunis, who as Commander-in-Chief of Middle East Command and later Supreme Commander for the Italian campaign was Montgomery's commanding officer, was the son of the 4th Earl of Caledon, whose family owned estates in County Tyrone. Montgomery, Alanbrooke and Alexander are remembered through the names of roads in the Castlereagh Industrial Estate in South Belfast.

hivizman

hivizman wrote: »

Earl Alexander of Tunis, who as Commander-in-Chief of Middle East Command and later Supreme Commander for the Italian campaign was Montgomery's commanding officer, was the son of the 4th Earl of Caledon, whose family owned estates in County Tyrone. Montgomery, Alanbrooke and Alexander are remembered through the names of roads in the Castlereagh Industrial Estate in South Belfast.

Another Field Marshal with Ulster connections (this time actually born there) who is commemorated through a road on the Castlereagh Industrial Estate is Sir John Dill, who was Alanbrooke's predecessor as Chief of the Imperial General Staff. Dill was born in Lurgan, County Armagh, although he was educated in England. After passing through Sandhurst, he was commissioned into the Leinster Regiment.

thecommietommy

Delancey wrote: »

A couple of ' asides ' - Field Marshal Brook was first cousin of Sir Basil Brook ( later Lord Brookeborough ) the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland - although rarely photographed together their physical resemblance was uncanny.

The Vandeleurs were a long-established land-owning family.Many here will recall from their school history books photographs of an eviction taking place in the West of Ireland with police standing by while a battering ram is used to break down the cottage walls - that eviction was from a Vandeleur estate.

Montgomery's nephew Hugh Montgomery was a member of the notorious Cairo gang and was shot on the morning of Bloody Sunday by Collin’s Squad.

thecommietommy

Dev meeting Montgommery in 1967 under a picture of Padraig Pearse !!! Must have been an interesting conversation as Montgommery had been commander of the 17th Infantry Brigade in Cork 1921.