Dublin mayor wants to test children in in poor areas for fetal alcohol syndrome

Stark

steddyeddy wrote: »

It doesnt help that this nut is spreading misinformation about the disease either.

What misinformation is that?

Mr Benevolent

Why screen the newborns for FAS? It can't be cured anyway.

Monty Burnz

Confab wrote: »

Why screen the newborns for FAS? It can't be cured anyway.

But it can be treated with therapy to give the kids the best chance they can have.

Cussypat1974

mattjack wrote: »

I've a dipdploma, will that do ?

depends on whether or not it comes from a reputable educational institution
On a more serious note, a sow would not normally do anything to jeopardise the lives of her piglets. So to compare a woman who gets pissed while pregnant with total disregard to the baby she is planning to bring into the world, is highly insulting to porcine mothers everywhere...
i don't know the science of having the odd glass of wine in various trimesters as i have never been pregnant so never needed to worry about it. But I cannot see how being poor makes one less responsible as a parent. I don't come from a wealthy background and my mother did a damn good job......
why would there be a problem breastfeeding and having a night on the tiles if you expressed milk before going out? once again, I am no expert but it would seem far better a plan than feeding a child the milk of another species, full of crap and additives....?
yer man the mayor is an asshole to imply that poor mothers are raging loonies who drink like fishes during pregnancy. Of course he is. It's not like midd;le class people do not drink. Alcoholism affects all social sectors, with no discrimination.

Logical Fallacy

bluewolf wrote: »

why would they pick out areas if he's that concerned about kids do the screens as part of all pregnant womens checkups

Funding.

You put the money where the higher risk is.

golden lane

this is 2012.......you spend all the time argueing, so as nothing gets done.......

you can't save one, you must save them all.....human rights etc.....

christmas2012

thats discrimination as a mayor of a town he should know better

nua domhan

christmas2012 wrote: »

thats discrimination as a mayor of a town he should know better

No its not. It's science dumbass.

steddyeddy

Im not particularly bad mouthing the mayor Im just saying that theres a right and wrong way to deal with disadvantaged areas. It creates a lot of stigma when people in positions of power associate drinking while pregnant exclusivly with a deprived area.

steddyeddy

nua domhan wrote: »

No its not. It's science dumbass.

I dont see how science played a part in the mayors decision.

Logical Fallacy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Im not particularly bad mouthing the mayor Im just saying that theres a right and wrong way to deal with disadvantaged areas. It creates a lot of stigma when people in positions of power associate drinking while pregnant exclusivly with a deprived area.

Read the study I linked to earlier in the thread ffs.

steddyeddy

Confab wrote: »

Why screen the newborns for FAS? It can't be cured anyway.

Thats true but therapy can improve the childs life to some degree.

Foxhound38

I work in rent-allowence bedsit accomodation in the NCR, Dorset Street and North Strand areas of Dublin. Some of the antics you see heavily pregnant women get up to around there on a noticable and widespread level (obviously not the majority, but a very noticable minority) makes you feel like shaking them for the sake of their unborn child. We're not just talking alcohol but all manner of drugs too. Poor kids haven't got a chance in these cases...

nua domhan

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont see how science played a part in the mayors decision.

Logical Fallacy posted this earlier - did you read the whole thread or jump in at the end??

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

People will wonder about this, so here is something on it.

To be honest, while there is an uncomfortable connection on it being popular to demonise the lower classes.

The only interesting thing this thread will provide is finding correlation between people running down lower class mothers who drink and cross referencing them with posters who dispute things like ADHD etc.

Should be a laugh a minute.

Battered Mars Bar

Those in power?......a mayor?! riiiiiiiiight :pac:

steddyeddy

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Read the study I linked to earlier in the thread ffs.

I did thanks. I still think that targeting a a treatment of a stigmatising disease at one socio economic group is a really silly and damaging way to go about it. It does the people in disadvantaged areas no good, it does the vicitims of this syndrome no good and it does the areas themselves no good.

steddyeddy

nua domhan wrote: »

Logical Fallacy posted this earlier - did you read the whole thread or jump in at the end??

I did read my last post.

Monty Burnz

steddyeddy wrote: »

I did thanks. I still think that targeting a a treatment of a stigmatising disease at one socio economic group is a really silly and damaging way to go about it.

So pretending that a particular group is not more likely to have a problem with something is more healthy?

Great. I look forward to a new wave of public awareness campaigns warning me about my risk of cervical cancer.

steddyeddy

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So pretending that a particular group is not more likely to have a problem with something is more healthy?

Great. I look forward to a new wave of public awareness campaigns warning me about my risk of cervical cancer.

Where did I say pretend there isnt a problem there?

iguana

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But it can be treated with therapy to give the kids the best chance they can have.

But is Montague's proposal including a plan for immediate treatment following a diagnosis? And if so how does he propose that is workable when our health system is already desperately under pressure? Especially considering that the type of treatment needed for FAS varies from one person to another and there is usually a lot of hit and miss before a workable programme is devised for each patient.

Cussypat1974 wrote: »

i don't know the science of having the odd glass of wine in various trimesters as i have never been pregnant so never needed to worry about it.

Nobody really knows this yet as there has yet to be any conclusive study into just how much alcohol can cause problems. We know it causes problems, often severe ones, but we don't yet know whether the occasional glass or two during pregnancy has any effect.

Cussypat1974 wrote: »

why would there be a problem breastfeeding and having a night on the tiles if you expressed milk before going out?

The only problem with drinking while breastfeeding is if you feed the child in the next few hours as the alcohol will be in the breastmilk. If you have a few small drinks and then wait until the next day to feed the baby from the breast (presumably having a bottle prepared for any required night feeds) and the alcohol is cleared from the bloodstream, it has also left the breastmilk and it will not transfer to the baby.

Monty Burnz

steddyeddy wrote: »

Where did I say pretend there isnt a problem there?

Clearly you have a problem with identifying who is most likely to have the problem and targeting the message/treatment efforts. I think that's a pretty stupid approach. Like dropping food from the air over famine-stricken areas and Beverly Hills so as not to stigmatise the people who actually need the food.

Monty Burnz

iguana wrote: »

But is Montague's proposal including a plan for immediate treatment following a diagnosis? And if so how does he propose that is workable when our health system is already desperately under pressure? Especially considering that the type of treatment needed for FAS varies from one person to another and there is usually a lot of hit and miss before a workable programme is devised for each patient.

I guess we'll have to see the full proposal. Current issues with the health service don't seem like a good reason to give up on these kids though.

iguana

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I guess we'll have to see the full proposal. Current issues with the health service don't seem like a good reason to give up on these kids though.

No, not in an ideal world but we are already struggling and sometimes failing to give people life-saving treatments that they need so I just don't see how this is workable without a major overhaul of the health system.

Sea Filly

Monty Burnz wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, there's no 'safe' level of alcohol to drink during pregnancy, and worryingly the effects are worst in the first trimester (when you might not even know you are pregnant).

After the first trimester, it's fine to have the odd glass of wine or beer. There's a huge difference between this and binge drinking while expecting.

iguana

Sea Filly wrote: »

After the first trimester, it's fine to have the odd glass of wine or beer. There's a huge difference between this and binge drinking while expecting.

There has been no scientific conclusion on this yet.

grizzly

steddyeddy wrote: »

I did thanks. I still think that targeting a a treatment of a stigmatising disease at one socio economic group is a really silly and damaging way to go about it. It does the people in disadvantaged areas no good, it does the vicitims of this syndrome no good and it does the areas themselves no good.

If a group of people are hurting themselves through the ignorance of their actions, what is better? To try and educate them or say nothing and spare their feelings?

K-9

iguana wrote: »

There has been no scientific conclusion on this yet.

Indeed, women in their 30/40's are at far more risk of alcoholism these days and women in their 30's are having more babies. I'd say your middle class, 38 year old alco mother could well be an increasing problem here but aren't as obvious, better at covering the alcoholic problem up.

admiralofthefleet

so if some posh 37 year old bint from Portmarnock or Malahide or Castlenock decide's to give little caesar a brother or sister its ok if she quaffs a few glasses of vino during the pregnancy but tanya form dolphins barn, south Dublin has a few dutch gold she could be screened? amirite?

mikemac1

Well yes for two of them, Malahide and Portmarnock are in Fingal

spurious

Nobody needs screening - it can be seen in a hundred classrooms across the city every day. You can actually tell by looking at the child - it's something in the eyes.

The real kicker of course is when these children start to drink in any sort of quantity (usually around 13/14). Just like the children who were born strung out, they take to it like a fish to water, often with drink given to them by their parents.

Sea Filly

iguana wrote: »

There has been no scientific conclusion on this yet.

So, if there is no conclusion, is it really right to vilify women are having the occasional alcohol drink in the later stages of pregnancy?

FAS is caused by high levels of consumption.

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, women in their 30/40's are at far more risk of alcoholism these days and women in their 30's are having more babies. I'd say your middle class, 38 year old alco mother could well be an increasing problem here but aren't as obvious, better at covering the alcoholic problem up.

Whoa, who said anything about alcoholism? I meant having a glass of wine with your Christmas dinner type thing!

SerialComplaint

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont see how science played a part in the mayors decision.

He hasn't made any decision.

iguana wrote: »

But is Montague's proposal

There is no 'Montague proposal' - just a leaked draft of a work-in-progress document.

christmas2012 wrote: »

thats discrimination as a mayor of a town he should know better

Dublin is a city. And he hasn't produced any proposal yet.

donegal_road

I first heard of fetal alcohol syndrome in 2003 out in Vancouver. An old neighbour of mine from home was working in the area. She would visit schools and community centres giving presentations highlighting the dangers of drinking while pregnant. She eventually adopted a teenage girl with FAS. She had a mental age of about 7, even though she was 14. She was from a First Nations background, where the problem was more common.
She told us that Fetal Alcohol Syndrome wasn't recognised or diagnosed in Ireland, that was almost 10 years ago.

Monty Burnz

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

so if some posh 37 year old bint from Portmarnock or Malahide or Castlenock decide's to give little caesar a brother or sister its ok if she quaffs a few glasses of vino during the pregnancy but tanya form dolphins barn, south Dublin has a few dutch gold she could be screened? amirite?

Reverse snobbery ftw.

snickerpuss

As someone who lives in what would probably be considered a "disadvantaged" area in North Dublin I would refuse to be tested for this if it didn't apply uniformly to all pregnant women. What could they really do? In Ireland it's common to be judged largely on where you live but really there are good and bad parts of lots of neighbourhoods. What nonsense.

This is presuming those "at risk" are identified by post code rather than other factors.

Monty Burnz

snickerpuss wrote: »

This is presuming those "at risk" are identified by post code rather than other factors.

You read the academic paper that has been referenced several times already in the thread?

Jester252

If your pregnant you should put the child's well being before yours. IMO

LittleBook

SerialComplaint wrote: »

I don't suppose there is any chance that people would wait to see the actual document mentioned in the article before rushing to judgement on Montague, or better still, wait for the final published version, not the draft?

Herald Correction - Lord Mayor On Child Testing

Herald wrote:

In a Herald article of May 24, 2012, we erroneously stated that Dublin Lord Mayor Andrew Montague proposed testing pregnant women for alcohol consumption.

We are happy to clarify that Mr Montague did not propose such a measure, but advocated the screening of young children for Foetal Alcohol Syndrome disorder.

iguana

Sea Filly wrote: »

So, if there is no conclusion, is it really right to vilify women are having the occasional alcohol drink in the later stages of pregnancy?

FAS is caused by high levels of consumption.

Wrong. There are different levels of FAS and they are caused by different levels of alcohol consumption. We know for a fact that alcohol consumption can cause problems for the foetus, what we do not know is if there is a safe level to drink at. So if we don't know that it's ok to have a few drinks then of course it should be avoided in pregnancy. Just think about it logically. A four month old foetus is about the size of an onion, a couple of small glasses of wine might be just enough to make the mother feel a little relaxed but that's the entire body weight of the foetus. That's an awful lot for it to deal with.

And it now appears that men who's mother's drank lightly during their testicular production have significantly lower sperm counts than average. They mightn't have behavioural problems as a child but fertility problems as an adult are a pretty big deal to most people. There are other ways to achieve all of the benefits of a couple of glasses of wine. A handful of dried berries for the anti-oxidant effect and 45 minutes of yoga for the increased production of GABA, the neurochemical that makes us feel relaxed when we drink. And unlike a couple of drinks which may end up harming the pregnancy, yoga is known to benefit it in numerous ways.

snickerpuss

Monty Burnz wrote: »

snickerpuss wrote: »

You read the academic paper that has been referenced several times already in the thread?

No, which is why I added a disclaimer in my post noting that I was presuming it was on the basis of where you live as noted in the original article. As I noted I was presuming I clearly wasn't claiming to know that that would be the exact procedure.

Doc Ruby

spurious wrote: »

You can actually tell by looking at the child - it's something in the eyes.

...what?

I seriously hope you aren't a teacher.

Stark

Doc Ruby wrote: »

...what?

I seriously hope you aren't a teacher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_syndrome#Facial_features

Facial markers do exist.

mikemac1

Evening Herald up to their usual tricks so

Put out a story, get people riled up and then put in a tiny paragragh for correction

If there is going to be a correction it should be the same size and on the same page of the paper as the article, not hidden away

iguana

Doc Ruby wrote: »

...what?

I seriously hope you aren't a teacher.

Why? In most cases FAS presents as deformed facial features. In cases where the mother isn't forthcoming about her drinking, or isn't available to ask, FAS is diagnosed by the presentation of facial features.

This is how it looks; http://www.primehealthchannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Fetal-Alcohol-Syndrome-picture.jpg

Pedro K

My name is URL wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

Drinking or drinking during pregnancy is more common in disadvantaged areas?

Well, both. One by extension of the other. I don't think we're talking about a few glasses of wine a week here fwiw. I'm guessing the whole thing is about problem drinking. And problem drinking of all descriptions are more common in disadvantaged areas. I'm not trying to generalise, it's the sad fact of the matter.. for a number of reasons and not just proclivity to drinking.. population densities, and reduced access to proper education/treatments etc.

This, for me, is a big problem. It was brought up in another thread about drinking culture too.

There seems to be a lot of people in Ireland who 'don't drink,' but just have a couple of glasses of wine with dinner. Then they wonder how they have become alcoholics or why their liver is knackered. Most wines are three times the abv of beers.

I think, and I stand open to correction here, that if people saw a pregnant woman drinking a can it would be met with widespread condemnation, but if it was a glass of wine there would be a sizeable number of the same people who would say 'ah sure it's only a glass of wine.'

For the record, I don't condone drinking any alcohol at all during pregnancy.

nua domhan

snickerpuss wrote: »

Monty Burnz wrote: »

snickerpuss wrote: »

You read the academic paper that has been referenced several times already in the thread?

No, which is why I added a disclaimer in my post noting that I was presuming it was on the basis of where you live as noted in the original article. As I noted I was presuming I clearly wasn't claiming to know that that would be the exact procedure.

Lower class people live in lower class postcodes shocker!!

prinz

Typical hypocrisy in the reaction tbh. If he was suggesting some new help for parents programme or some such he'd be crucified for not targetting disadvantaged areas first.

Doc Ruby

Stark wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_syndrome#Facial_features

Facial markers do exist.

iguana wrote: »

Why? In most cases FAS presents as deformed facial features. In cases where the mother isn't forthcoming about her drinking, or isn't available to ask, FAS is diagnosed by the presentation of facial features.

This is how it looks; http://www.primehealthchannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Fetal-Alcohol-Syndrome-picture.jpg

That's great guys, but what you're describing isn't "something in their eyes", its clear and recognisable facial features.

So what I'm doing now is trying to square the circle of someone hopefully not in a position of authority over children making snap judgements about them based on "something in their eyes".

seamus

It seems like a wholly reasonable idea to me.

He was basically saying that in many cases, especially in lower socioeconomic areas, that children with FAS can be sometimes misdiagnosed with things like ADHD or Autism, or in many cases will just go completely undiagnosed because the mother doesn't have the money or the education to realise that the child should see a specialist.
This in turn means that many of these children will end up involved in crime or substance abuse, especially given the environment they're growing up in.

I don't think suggesting that women from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are more likely to drink heavily during pregnancy is that shocking, surely?
In any case, he suggested that these children be screened purely because they were less likely to receive the same focus of medical and psychological care than a child from a more wealthy background.

Stark

Doc Ruby wrote:

That's great guys, but what you're describing isn't "something in their eyes", its clear and recognisable facial features.

Your eyes are part of your face.

Quote from the wikipedia article I linked:

“I have never seen anybody with this whole face who doesn't have some brain damage. In fact in studies, as the face is more FAS-like, the brain is more likely to be abnormal. The only face that you would want to counsel people or predict the future about is the full FAS face. But the risk of brain damage increases as the eyes get smaller, as the philtrum gets flatter, and the lip gets thinner. The risk goes up but not the diagnosis.“

“At one-month gestation, the top end of your body is a brain, and at the very front end of that early brain, there is tissue that has been brain tissue. It stops being brain and gets ready to be your face ... Your eyeball is also brain tissue. It's an extension of the second part of the brain. It started as brain and "popped out." So if you are going to look at parts of the brain from alcohol damage, or any kind of damage during pregnancy, eye malformations and midline facial malformations are going to be very actively related to the brain across syndromes ... and they certainly are with FAS.“[32]