Season 2 Episode 9 - *Have Read The Books/Spoilers*

Cookiemunster

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

The defense of Kings Landing in the book was a really brilliant thing. Of course budget restraints meant we would never get to see anything like the way it went down in the book. But what I find laughable is the defense of Kings Landing in the TV show came down to an unmanned ship spouting dragonfire from its arse. It made no sense. Tyrion has the mind of a great military leader and his big surprise is an unmanned ship that has to sail directly towards Stannis and pray that the wind is in his favour on that particular night to do so. It makes no sense at all that Tyrion would do something so stupid.

Well JRRM wrote this episode, so if he's happy with the changes so am I.

podgemonster

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

The defense of Kings Landing in the book was a really brilliant thing. Of course budget restraints meant we would never get to see anything like the way it went down in the book. But what I find laughable is the defense of Kings Landing in the TV show came down to an unmanned ship spouting dragonfire from its arse. It made no sense. Tyrion has the mind of a great military leader and his big surprise is an unmanned ship that has to sail directly towards Stannis and pray that the wind is in his favour on that particular night to do so. It makes no sense at all that Tyrion would do something so stupid.

Stannis Ships had to assemble into a narrow column to enter the MudGate so they were close together. Plus with the aggression of Stannis attack he wouldnt have seen through this trick.
The unmanned ship didnt have the wind, it had the tide as Davos said "the tide is against us but we have the wind". I dont think it had a great distance to travel anyway.

Tyrion co-ordinated and timed the explosion that destroyed half the fleet, he remotivated the troops when Joffery fled, by studying the undergroud maps he reposition his forces annilate forces breaking through adn took on men twice his size. Tyrion came across extremely composed, heroic and intelligent in that episode.

The defence of Kings Landing came down to a lot of things not just the wildfire.

titan18

titan18 wrote: »

Also, changing Jon's character, who is many people's favourite character, into someone so stupid and clearly not as respected by Qhorin and Mormont.

Jon was ALWAYS an idiot. They're just making it more obvious in the show.
All the changes in the show so far have been negligible. Sure, the chain brought more sense to the trap at Blackwater, but it can easily be left out and the way they did it proved that it COULD be left out without any major damage to the plot. I'm pretty sure Talisa will be taking over Jeyne's role, but honestly don't see the importance of the latter. All we really need is someone to make Robb break his promise to the Freys, and I think introducing Jeyne and her family would take up precious minutes of the show that they really can't afford to waste. Talisa is keeping fairly quiet about her history, so that means no time is wasted for her.
I think the perfectionists are forgetting the factors of time and budget. The show has basically been given ten hours and a miniscule (by Hollywood standards) budget to encapsule an enormous book. They need to cut off all the fat and just stick to the main storyline or else it'll become a mess.
The extra scenes with Arya and Tywin play well with the need to cut things down; instead of watching every little plot unfold in Robb's camp, you just get short synopses of what he's doing, and what it means for the Lannisters. Plus you get an insight into the Lannisters' history and family dynamics, all while watching Arya get colder and colder, paving the way for her to become a killer.

The show will never fully reflect the books. It's just a quick run through, glossing over the surface. If you want the full details, go read the books again. If the changes in the show bother you so much, stop watching it. It's really not that hard to cope with. Personally, I enjoy the book and the show as two separate entities. The books will always be canon in my head, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the series as well.

UL_heart_throb

I never considered Jon an idiot. I always considered him naive and an idealist at the beginning but becomes more pragmatic. However it was his trust and beneficence that brought about his apparent demise.

Yakuza

Deleted User wrote: »

All the changes in the show so far have been negligible. Sure, the chain brought more sense to the trap at Blackwater, but it can easily be left out and the way they did it proved that it COULD be left out without any major damage to the plot. I'm pretty sure Talisa will be taking over Jeyne's role, but honestly don't see the importance of the latter. All we really need is someone to make Robb break his promise to the Freys, and I think introducing Jeyne and her family would take up precious minutes of the show that they really can't afford to waste. Talisa is keeping fairly quiet about her history, so that means no time is wasted for her.
I think the perfectionists are forgetting the factors of time and budget. The show has basically been given ten hours and a miniscule (by Hollywood standards) budget to encapsule an enormous book. They need to cut off all the fat and just stick to the main storyline or else it'll become a mess.
The extra scenes with Arya and Tywin play well with the need to cut things down; instead of watching every little plot unfold in Robb's camp, you just get short synopses of what he's doing, and what it means for the Lannisters. Plus you get an insight into the Lannisters' history and family dynamics, all while watching Arya get colder and colder, paving the way for her to become a killer.

The show will never fully reflect the books. It's just a quick run through, glossing over the surface. If you want the full details, go read the books again. If the changes in the show bother you so much, stop watching it. It's really not that hard to cope with. Personally, I enjoy the book and the show as two separate entities. The books will always be canon in my head, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the series as well.

+1, couldn't have said it better myself. The moaners on all these threads are getting tiresome..."it's not like the book, waah waah waah". It's an adaptation, due to airtime and budget constraints. Deal with it and quit bellyaching. Treat it as a similar story set in the same universe. Or better yet, come up with your own screenplay, organise your budget, try to pitch it onto a TV network and then you'll have nothing to complain about. Simples, eh?

Mr Freeze

Deleted User wrote: »

The show will never fully reflect the books. It's just a quick run through, glossing over the surface. If you want the full details, go read the books again. If the changes in the show bother you so much, stop watching it. It's really not that hard to cope with. Personally, I enjoy the book and the show as two separate entities. The books will always be canon in my head, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the series as well.

Well said ser M'Lady!

You have the right of it.

Yakuza

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Well said ser!

You have the right of it.

(Perhaps you misspoke, ser. I suspect "My Lady" may be more appropriate, going by the username!)

Mr Freeze

Yakuza wrote: »

(Perhaps you misspoke, ser. I suspect "My Lady" may be more appropriate, going by the username!)

Whoopsssssssssss! Didn't even looks at the name.

WindmillWarrior

Yakuza wrote: »

The moaners on all these threads are getting tiresome..."it's not like the book, waah waah waah". It's an adaptation, due to airtime and budget constraints. Deal with it and quit bellyaching. Treat it as a similar story set in the same universe.

Tell ya what, the above argument is begining to get quite tiresome as well.
I don't see too much "it's not like the book, waah waah waah" talk. I seen some reasonable debate on the whole project. I also see some unreasonable debate, but hey ho, isn't that what a forum like this is for?

titan18

podgemonster wrote: »

As for the second paragraph I really think you are delusion or trolling if you dont rate the music, locations and think the costumes are "pretty sh***". The costumes on the show are lavish and unique. Have you not seen Jofferys gold and red garments, Renlys Stag armour, the wolfskin coats of the Starks, Ironborns oilskins, the gowns of the high born ladys. The Lannister armour in particular is equisite, with crimson red. The Kings guards do stand out with gold plated armour and white capes, perhaps the colour on your tv need adjusting. The producers took inspiration from around the world when designing the costume of the cast, so you can see that Lannisters head gear is inspired by Samurai, who were great warriors so maybe they are benifical shaped like that.

The music is excellent, the scores during the birth of the shadow and theons revelation of the burned corpes were particularily good, with music on film and tv is only when its not there that you miss it but music plays a big part in building up the tension and adding to excitement in scenes.

Yes Iceland is beautiful and so were Pyke scenes and the Stormland & Westerlands scenes filmed in N.I. (particularily the shot of Jaime and Brienne heading down the river) and Croatia makes an excellent kinglands landing. So what if the North of the wall is missing trees, its is still a harsh, vast and merciless envoirment that really all that matters.

Well, a lot of people don't like the Lannister samurai armour. I personally don't think it's fitting for the context of the show, but if some like it, fine, it doesn't work for me. In regards to the Kingsguard, they're not as distinctive as they should be, per the books, it should be white armour not gold, only Jaime broke tradition and wore gold, I haven't seen their shields and their cloaks can be missed quite easily. I agree on the rest of the costumes but it's just those two that annoy me. There are some non-book readers who missed that was a member of the Kingsguard who attacked Tyrion, so it does have an affect.

On the music, I honestly can't say I've noticed it during the series anywhere outside of credits and the Rains of Castamere (not a fan of The National's version, loved Bronn singing it though).

Again on location, most places are fine but Iceland does not suit the North of Wall. Probably suit the Land of Always Winter, but not the Haunted Forest and the Frostfangs imo.

Deleted User wrote: »

Jon was ALWAYS an idiot. They're just making it more obvious in the show.
All the changes in the show so far have been negligible. Sure, the chain brought more sense to the trap at Blackwater, but it can easily be left out and the way they did it proved that it COULD be left out without any major damage to the plot. I'm pretty sure Talisa will be taking over Jeyne's role, but honestly don't see the importance of the latter. All we really need is someone to make Robb break his promise to the Freys, and I think introducing Jeyne and her family would take up precious minutes of the show that they really can't afford to waste. Talisa is keeping fairly quiet about her history, so that means no time is wasted for her.
I think the perfectionists are forgetting the factors of time and budget. The show has basically been given ten hours and a miniscule (by Hollywood standards) budget to encapsule an enormous book. They need to cut off all the fat and just stick to the main storyline or else it'll become a mess.
The extra scenes with Arya and Tywin play well with the need to cut things down; instead of watching every little plot unfold in Robb's camp, you just get short synopses of what he's doing, and what it means for the Lannisters. Plus you get an insight into the Lannisters' history and family dynamics, all while watching Arya get colder and colder, paving the way for her to become a killer.

The show will never fully reflect the books. It's just a quick run through, glossing over the surface. If you want the full details, go read the books again. If the changes in the show bother you so much, stop watching it. It's really not that hard to cope with. Personally, I enjoy the book and the show as two separate entities. The books will always be canon in my head, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the series as well.

Imo, Jon was never an idiot, he's naive but he's actually quite intelligent and well-respected by Qhorin and Mormont, and a lot of people in the Nightswatch. For example in the books, Qhorin requests Jon to go with him saying that the Old gods and gods of the Starks are strong beyond the wall. In the TV show, Jon asks can he go and Mormont says no at first, before being convinced can he go. Along with him getting knocked out by Craster (was that needed) and the crap with Ygritte, it's clear that Jon is being unnecessarily changed.

On Tulisa/Jeyne, imo it is important that she's a Westerling. If she was some randomer, Robb would never marry her, been allowed marry her, or if he did, she'd be cut loose. The fact that it's a member of a family sworn to House Lannister and a very old house (something that the Freys hate) makes the decision more important. It's also annoying that they're making Robb think with his dick rather than his head. At least adding in the learning of Bran and Rickon makes him weak and can explain his idiocy.


I mean I think everyone knows this is an adaptation, but considering we know future plots up to the end of the 5th, something that non-readers won't, if we see changes that are being made that can have an adverse effect on those, I think it's right to not be ok with it.

Like I'm fine with the addition of the Dragon stealing into Dany's story. It still gives her a reason to go to the House of the Undying and nothing is affected by it in story progression. Similarly, the Arya-Tywin scenes were good, as it served to give exposition, although I'm annoyed at the lack of payoff from them or Tywin not seeing who Arya was, but in overall terms, they were some of the better parts of episodes. Other examples would be Ser Rodriks death working quite well, the lack of the Chain (would have loved to have seen it) but it worked well enough without it (although only true unexplainable stupidity out of Davos and Stannis) or even the lack of Weasel Soup (although that annoyed me aswell) at least it can be explained on budget and air time. Similarly with making Bronn Captain of the City Guard, it doesn't make sense to give a sellsword that power, but I think most are ok with it, since a new character doesn't need to be introduced and its cos of budget constraints it was done.

Changes I don't think were necessary are Talisa instead of Jeyne, the change in Jon's character (can anyone see the TV Jon becoming Lord Commander atm), Robb and Catelyn not finding about Bran and Rickon (seriously one line and it explains Robb's moment of weakness and Catelyn freeing Jaime), back on Jon, him and Qhorin not being given screen time together considering what's going to happen, Arya not killing someone coming out of Harrenhal annoys me as it signals her loss of innocence being complete with the end of her stay in Harrenhal (if she kills someone in the next episode, I won't mind that), cutting the Sansa and Ser Dontos stuff, since Ser Dontos has already been introduced, doesn't make much sense to me at least.

I also don't like the lack of the Direwolfs even though it's probably cos of budget, it still annoys me due to their effect on the storyline

WindmillWarrior

titan18 wrote: »

... the Arya-Tywin scenes were good, as it served to give exposition, although I'm annoyed at the lack of payoff from them or Tywin not seeing who Arya was ...

We should get a nice payoff on this in series 3 - when Tywin finds out Arya is actually not a captive in Kings Landing. Should be fun seeing his reaction when the penney drops!

Good post though titan18. I would share a lot of your misgivings.

ceegee

I dont see why having more trees north of the wall would improve the show?

At a guess, Id say they changed due to it being a lot easier to film in a wide open area rather than in a forest. Otherwise we'd be stuck with "blair witch on ice" shakey camera work anytime anyone started running through the trees.

Plus its easier to do aerial shots, distant shots etc as well as being easier to bring in equipment etc

titan18

ceegee wrote: »

I dont see why having more trees north of the wall would improve the show?

At a guess, Id say they changed due to it being a lot easier to film in a wide open area rather than in a forest. Otherwise we'd be stuck with "blair witch on ice" shakey camera work anytime anyone started running through the trees.

Plus its easier to do aerial shots, distant shots etc as well as being easier to bring in equipment etc

Never said it'd improve it, although I do think the Fist of the First Men rising out of the forest like it should would improve the attack to come, aswell as when the Night's Watch is running back to the Wall and the Others are chasing them, moving through the forest instead of a wide space would be more terrifying.

But, it was mainly just to address the point of locations being excellent. I think everything works bar Iceland, but I can understand why they went with it being involved in filming myself (although nowhere close to that level)

podgemonster

titan18 wrote: »

On Tulisa/Jeyne, imo it is important that she's a Westerling. If she was some randomer, Robb would never marry her, been allowed marry her, or if he did, she'd be cut loose. The fact that it's a member of a family sworn to House Lannister and a very old house (something that the Freys hate) makes the decision more important. It's also annoying that they're making Robb think with his dick rather than his head. At least adding in the learning of Bran and Rickon makes him weak and can explain his idiocy.

A fine point.
While i understand that this is important (and interesting) in the book politically, the TV show doesn't have to be as complicated or people (non-readers) will lose interest. The house she is sworn to or the age of the house is only white noise on the show that wouldn't be picked up as a reader would. All Jeyne/Tulisa has to be is NOT a Frey thus sparking the Frey retribution in Season 3, if you make it too convuluted the audience loses interest.

I wouldn't say Robb is thinking with his dick but moreso his heart. The writers are developing a lovestory between the Robb and her rather than way Martin wrote it. They clearly want to show that Robb will marry this girl not because of loyalty but because he loves her. This may keep the lady viewers more interested and make it all the more tragic when Robb is betrayed.

While these are changes aren't 100% line with the book the end result will be the same, i have accepted this and I don't find it at all annoying and somewhat interesting. Robb & Catelyn will die.

I would expect Arya to kill someone in the next episode though.

thehairyone

Deleted User wrote: »

The show will never fully reflect the books. It's just a quick run through, glossing over the surface. If you want the full details, go read the books again. If the changes in the show bother you so much, stop watching it. It's really not that hard to cope with. Personally, I enjoy the book and the show as two separate entities. The books will always be canon in my head, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the series as well.

I dont think many people are deluded enough to think that the series will be perfect. Its just that for fans of the books like myself there have been changes that dont seem necessary due to budget constraints. Titan18 goes through a fair few changes above which actually improve the story.

I think the series is great although I think there has been a drop in quality in season 2. There are a few instances in my mind where changes to the book were unnecessary and actually make the story worse; the Jon and Ygritte story and jons relationship with Qhorin. The Sansa/hound relationship and the hounds breakdown during the battle. Davos as the leader of the failed attack of kings landing. Catelyn and Rob not learning about the boys before they make their decisions.

These issues above could have been dealt with better without having any major impact on the budget or time constraints. I think thats what frustrates people the most, these deviations dont make the story better, so why do them.

While I had issues with the battle of the blackwater, I understand that there are budget constraints and give them a bit of leeway but when it comes down to just bad plot development I dont think theres any excuse when the source material is so good. I think the story in the books is good enough to hold a series together without making too many changes, although the quality of the last 2 books was pretty unimpressive.

Tzar Chasm

Whether or not arya kills in the next episode is a minor deviation, i'm more worried about her not getting the coin or seeing jaqhan change faces, the coin is what leads her to braavos and anyway I think the more significant kills were at the inn of the kneeling man, at harrenhall she killed the guard out of nescessdity at the inn she has the choice to escape or to save the hound, but now that they killed the tickler that even looks in doubt

ceegee

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Whether or not arya kills in the next episode is a minor deviation, i'm more worried about her not getting the coin or seeing jaqhan change faces, the coin is what leads her to braavos and anyway I think the more significant kills were at the inn of the kneeling man, at harrenhall she killed the guard out of nescessdity at the inn she has the choice to escape or to save the hound, but now that they killed the tickler that even looks in doubt

I could see them leaving out Arya doing any more killing for as long as possible to avoid scaring off audiences with a pre-teen assassin. (hope Im wrong though)

UL_heart_throb

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

I never considered Jon an idiot. I always considered him naive and an idealist at the beginning but becomes more pragmatic. However it was his trust and beneficence that brought about his apparent demise.

TBH I never really liked Jon. I felt for him in the beginning, but after that his bastard pain became too much for me. He never really seemed to get it into his head that plenty of the boys on the wall have had luck as bad as his and worse (poor Sam hardly ever complains). I suppose he IS a teenager, so he has a lot of angst to deal with, but I just wish he'd get over himself.

Son0vagun

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Poor episode in a poor second season. This season bears little in comparison with the book and some of the entirely made up scenes are just painfully awful.

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous, pure bull ****. It's a tv show! The book is the book, the tv show is the tv show. The tv show Is never going to be as good as the book, but should be viewed separately and not compared! If you don't like it don't watch it!

jebidiah

I saw it posted on the havent read the books forum about rob basicly doing nothing for the whole series.

Am I right in saying he never becomes a PoV character?

Gbear

Ultimately I think the second season suffered from the expansion in scope. I much preferred the first season.

I can't quite remember but dany's plotline aside, things should get reigned in a bit no?

PhiloCypher

Gbear wrote: »

Ultimately I think the second season suffered from the expansion in scope. I much preferred the first season.

I can't quite remember but dany's plotline aside, things should get reigned in a bit no?

I agree completely , with the narrative splintering and expanding the way it did this season there were always gonna have to be sacrifices made for the sake of budget and the limits of a 10 episode season . While some of these sacrifices/changes can be hard to take I ,unlike many purists here, trust that the ptb's in consultation with George have not taken these things lightly and that while it can be hard to understand the whys and wherefores now, when the narrative Splinters still further in the next season, we will at the very least understand the reasons they dropped or simplified certain things this season.

The ironic thing is that when the show is too choppy trying to cover everything people complain yet the very episodes that are narratively concise that stick to one or two locations and are rightly lauded are the reason stuff has to be cut . People tend to go on about "if only we had 2 more episodes everything would be perfect " which I think is pie in the sky stuff tbh , with the amount of detail George crams into each succeeding novels a network norm of 22 would more what you would need, but we don't have that so you've got to be realistic .

PhiloCypher

titan18 wrote: »

On the music, I honestly can't say I've noticed it during the series anywhere outside of credits and the Rains of Castamere (not a fan of The National's version, loved Bronn singing it though).

I had this reaction on my first go around watching the first season feeling it was abit too sparse but came to really appreciate Ramin Djawadi work on my 2nd and 3rd run through's . This season tho he has knocked it out of the park imo so I'm struggling to comprehend how you haven't noticed it in the show in Theons baptism scene and beheading scene in particular to name just two. I think as a purist you may have been so invested in spotting changes that you've just had a tin ear when it came to the music (Castamere aside, as it's a part of the fabric of the book and something you would listen out for) . I defy you to listen to the soundtrack when it officially comes out if not before and tell me it's not excellent.

Mr Freeze

PhiloCypher wrote: »

This season tho he has knocked it out of the park imo so I'm struggling to comprehend how you haven't noticed it in the show in Theons baptism scene and beheading scene in particular to name just two.

Loving the music in the Stannis scenes. So haunting, which is a bit unfair on the poor fella.

Crucifix

jebidiah wrote: »

I saw it posted on the havent read the books forum about rob basicly doing nothing for the whole series.

Am I right in saying he never becomes a PoV character?

Robb wasn't POV in the books. He's off fighting battles for most of Clash of Kings, with us hearing about through Catelyn and other characters

PhiloCypher

titan18 wrote: »

On Tulisa/Jeyne, imo it is important that she's a Westerling. If she was some randomer, Robb would never marry her, been allowed marry her, or if he did, she'd be cut loose. The fact that it's a member of a family sworn to House Lannister and a very old house (something that the Freys hate) makes the decision more important. It's also annoying that they're making Robb think with his dick rather than his head. At least adding in the learning of Bran and Rickon makes him weak and can explain his idiocy.


I mean I think everyone knows this is an adaptation, but considering we know future plots up to the end of the 5th, something that non-readers won't, if we see changes that are being made that can have an adverse effect on those, I think it's right to not be ok with it.

Putting what happened in the novels aside for one minute whats this allowed lark ?? yes there are traditions to consider and yes Ned would have something to say about it were he alive(with Tywin likely having her killed if he were his son)but he isn't, Rob has no disapproving patriarch to tell him whats expected and what he can or can't do(Catelyn doesn't count as as strong as the women are in the book/show this is still a patriarchal society) , he is the King in the North and if he want's to Marry a commoner he'll marry a commoner and who is going to tell him different ?

Also to say he as been portrayed as only thinking with his dick is a gross exaggeration imo , yes the reasoning as to why entering into a relationship with this girl is a bad thing isn't as layered as you may have hoped , but it's hardly like he dragged her in his tent and f**ked her the first day they met. The show clearly establishes a growing rapport and respect between them over the course of 7-8 episodes covering who knows how many months in actual westeros time before their ill fated tryst.

titan18

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Putting what happened in the novels aside for one minute whats this allowed lark ?? yes there are traditions to consider and yes Ned would have something to say about it were he alive(with Tywin likely having her killed if he were his son)but he isn't, Rob has no disapproving patriarch to tell him whats expected and what he can or can't do(Catelyn doesn't count as as strong as the women are in the book/show this is still a patriarchal society) , he is the King in the North and if he want's to Marry a commoner he'll marry a commoner and who is going to tell him different ?

Also to say he as been portrayed as only thinking with his dick is a gross exaggeration imo , yes the reasoning as to why entering into a relationship with this girl is a bad thing isn't as layered as you may have hoped , but it's hardly like he dragged her in his tent and f**ked her the first day they met. The show clearly establishes a growing rapport and respect between them over the course of 7-8 episodes covering who knows how many months in actual westeros time before their ill fated tryst.

Society would mean he isn't allowed, also, just because he's King in the North, doesn't mean he's above reproach. Catelyn would stop him (in the books, she wasn't with Robb in camp btw, so didn't about Jeyne until after the marriage happened) and taking what we know of the likes of Roose, even others like Greatjon Umber, I can't see them allowing Robb do it. It also wouldn't be outside their society for Robb to have something on the side, whilst still marrying the Frey girl. It'd be made clear that Robb can continue with her, and marry the Frey girl to keep up political appearances and agreements. From the books, since he was with him in battle and at camp, the Blackfish would have stopped Robb marrying a commoner.

Also, ya, he liked her cos she's hot from the start and despite already being promised, whether he wanted that or not, decided to continue on with her. It's not like he has the excuse of the despair of hearing about Bran or Rickon in the books

PhiloCypher

titan18 wrote: »

Society would mean he isn't allowed, also, just because he's King in the North, doesn't mean he's above reproach. Catelyn would stop him (in the books, she wasn't with Robb in camp btw, so didn't about Jeyne until after the marriage happened) and taking what we know of the likes of Roose, even others like Greatjon Umber, I can't see them allowing Robb do it. It also wouldn't be outside their society for Robb to have something on the side, whilst still marrying the Frey girl. It'd be made clear that Robb can continue with her, and marry the Frey girl to keep up political appearances and agreements. From the books, since he was with him in battle and at camp, the Blackfish would have stopped Robb marrying a commoner.

Also, ya, he liked her cos she's hot from the start and despite already being promised, whether he wanted that or not, decided to continue on with her. It's not like he has the excuse of the despair of hearing about Bran or Rickon in the books

Society says murder and thievery is wrong too but they still happen, besides who is to say she is a commoner and not a lady, granted one from Volantis not westeros. While I'm sure all the names you mentioned would frown on a union with such a girl (commoner or not) and urge him not to break the pact he made with Walder Frey, I am just as sure they couldn't really stop him, the heart wants what the heart wants and damn the consequences. Yes it's not how they did it in the book, yes if we had a 22 episode season they could and should have hewn closer to the novels, but ultimately the ptb evidently decided there were just too few episodes to give the Westerling family their due so we will just have to live with it.

Again you seem to be implying its a purely physical attraction and not an emotional one, tbh I think you're allowing your frustrations with the fact that there were changes made to cloud your judgment when it comes to how this relationship was portrayed on screen. News of Bran and Rickons apparent death may have been the ultimate pivot on which he made his ill fated decision in the books but for the tv show they have gone for that more visceral of reasons ... Love tragic and ill fated tho it is (but then aren't they the best kind ?) and that imo, is a far more relatable(for the audience) reason for him break his vows then him receiving raven about Bran and Rick and jumping her bones in despair.

podgemonster

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Again you seem to be implying its a purely physical attraction and not an emotional one, tbh I think you're allowing your frustrations with the fact that there were changes made to cloud your judgment when it comes to how this relationship was portrayed on screen. News of Bran and Rickons apparent death may have been the ultimate pivot on which he made his ill fated decision in the books but for the tv show they have gone for that more visceral of reasons ... Love tragic and ill fated tho it is (but then aren't they the best kind ?) and that imo, is a far more relatable(for the audience) reason for him break his vows then him receiving raven about Bran and Rick and jumping her bones in despair.

This!
If they embrace because of love and not some moment of weakness then if will make it all the more tragic when Robb is killed, think Romeo and Juliet not Black Widow.

I am also thinking to say Robb is only thinking with is dick is an unfair comment. Their first meeting, she is covered in blood and dirt sawing off an guys leg. His admiration from her stems from her virtues to aid the sick and injured unlike other high-borns. Her (lame) story on why she chose to help people its what pushes Robb over the edge, not a flash her tits, cracking as they are.

I think a lot of book readers have taken an immediate disliking to her as we know what tragedy she causes down the line. Plus our view of Jeyne was always given from the spitful biased narrative of Catelyn.

Gbear

podgemonster wrote: »

This!
If they embrace because of love and not some moment of weakness then if will make it all the more tragic when Robb is killed, think Romeo and Juliet not Black Widow.

I am also thinking to say Robb is only thinking with is dick is an unfair comment. Their first meeting, she is covered in blood and dirt sawing off an guys leg. His admiration from her stems from her virtues to aid the sick and injured unlike other high-borns. Her (lame) story on why she chose to help people its what pushes Robb over the edge, not a flash her tits, cracking as they are.

I think a lot of book readers have taken an immediate disliking to her as we know what tragedy she causes down the line. Plus our view of Jeyne was always given from the spitful biased narrative of Catelyn.

I think that'd be ok if the relationship was believable.

When they bizarrely decided to remove the chief reason for Robb and Catelyn's stupid decisions in Book 2 - the "death" of Bran and Rickon, they made Robb and Catelyn look like morons.

We didn't see enough to suggest that Robb would really love this woman. That he would fall into her arms due to grief and stay with her due to honour would've been more believable.

ceegee

Gbear wrote: »

podgemonster wrote: »

This!
If they embrace because of love and not some moment of weakness then if will make it all the more tragic when Robb is killed, think Romeo and Juliet not Black Widow.

I am also thinking to say Robb is only thinking with is dick is an unfair comment. Their first meeting, she is covered in blood and dirt sawing off an guys leg. His admiration from her stems from her virtues to aid the sick and injured unlike other high-borns. Her (lame) story on why she chose to help people its what pushes Robb over the edge, not a flash her tits, cracking as they are.

I think a lot of book readers have taken an immediate disliking to her as we know what tragedy she causes down the line. Plus our view of Jeyne was always given from the spitful biased narrative of Catelyn.

I think that'd be ok if the relationship was believable.

When they bizarrely decided to remove the chief reason for Robb and Catelyn's stupid decisions in Book 2 - the "death" of Bran and Rickon, they made Robb and Catelyn look like morons.

We didn't see enough to suggest that Robb would really love this woman. That he would fall into her arms due to grief and stay with her due to honour would've been more believable.

Talking to nonreaders, none seem to have any problems with Robb hooking up with her. Personally I think it makes more sense for him to fall for her the way the tv show portrayed it rather than him deciding that the best way to react to the murder of his family is to ride some randomer. Its one of the areas I feel the show has improved on the book, for all we know these may be segments Martin has regretted not writing differently and the changes may be down to him.

PhiloCypher

Gbear wrote: »

I think that'd be ok if the relationship was believable.

When they bizarrely decided to remove the chief reason for Robb and Catelyn's stupid decisions in Book 2 - the "death" of Bran and Rickon, they made Robb and Catelyn look like morons.

We didn't see enough to suggest that Robb would really love this woman. That he would fall into her arms due to grief and stay with her due to honour would've been more believable.

Their relationship is believable tho , you say we didn't see enough of them to buy their relationship yet we see scarcely more screen time between Ned and Catelyn and everybody buys theirs . Yes we don't see every shared moment between the two but then this isn't a chick flick so that was never gonna happen , instead the writers built the framework of a burgeoning relationship between them and left us the audience to fill in the blanks , if we(you) can't its as much a failure of imagination as it is their writing that is to blame .

On your second issue , while i have no idea why they chose to hold back news of Bran and Rick until after Rob and Tulisa had consummated an Cate freed Jaime , those actions are no more or less moronic or believable for that decision imo.

Something I'd keep in mind when considering why certain changes have been made is Fantasy can be a hard sell for contemporary audiences , you and I may eat up all this honor and obligation stuff but the ptb's are trying to reach and sustain a large enough audience to ensure they are renewed for however many seasons they need to complete Georges Story , and for a contemporary audience Love is a hell of a lot more relatable reason to do something stupid then taking some girls virtue and only sticking with her out of obligation.

podgemonster

Gbear wrote: »

I think that'd be ok if the relationship was believable.
We didn't see enough to suggest that Robb would really love this woman. That he would fall into her arms due to grief and stay with her due to honour would've been more believable.

There is plenty to suggest why Robb should fall for this woman, look at the body language between then in numberous scenes, how Robb gives her 100% of his attention, spills his feelings about his father and how stressed he is, Cateyln sees the attraction in a matter of seconds.

titan18

I agree with Gbear in that there relationship isn't believable. They've been together in about 4-5 scenes I'd say at this stage, and even outside the relationship, why would some randomer be allowed interrupt Robb's war councils, or even get close enough to him like that.

Again, taking into account what we know of their society from the books, sleeping with a random nurse would not be allowed. You can draw parallels to Prince Duncan who give up his crown to marry a low-born, whilst Robb doesn't have a father to throw him out, I can't really see the likes of Roose,Umbers,Karstarks etc agreeing to support Robb after dishonouring his vow to the Freys with a lowborn or a foreigner.

Considering most noble marriages are politically arranged in Westeros e.g Robert and Cersei, Brandon/Eddard and Catelyn, it's considered important that Robb marries someone in the same class structure and that can help him politically. As Jeyne Westerling, whilst she doesn't matter politically too much at the start, she is pretty much at a similar class structure as the Frey girl. Also,with her being a Westerling, looking into the future, after Robb dies, she wasn't going to be killed due to Westerling/Lannister influence, whereas that really wouldn't matter with Tulisa. In regards to the RW, I don't see a way for Tywin to get involved without the Westerling's telling him about Robb and Jeyne.

Just in comparison to the versions of Robb, book Robb is 15, gets wounded in battle, learns about Bran and Rickon and meets Jeyne who's tending to him and it happens. Then ashamed at what he's done, marries Jeyne to protect her honour. Like Eddard, he's taking honour seriously and it was an understandable moment of weakness that led him to sleeping with Jeyne.

TV Robb is about 18-20, is not injured, has not learned about Bran and Rickon, has his mother around him to remind him of his duty and the promise to the Freys, yet still goes with Talisa and deliberately breaks his vow to the Freys. He likes Talisa but by marrying her, he'd be completely the opposite to Ned and honour, and would be marrying her for selfish reasons.

Book Robb in a way had to marry Jeyne, as she was from a noble house, and he was trying to be as honourable as his father was. I don't see it as being believable that Robb would throw away a very important political alliance with the Freys for Talisa.

Gbear

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Their relationship is believable tho , you say we didn't see enough of them to buy their relationship yet we see scarcely more screen time between Ned and Catelyn and everybody buys theirs . Yes we don't see every shared moment between the two but then this isn't a chick flick so that was never gonna happen , instead the writers built the framework of a burgeoning relationship between them and left us the audience to fill in the blanks , if we(you) can't its as much a failure of imagination as it is their writing that is to blame .

Ned and Cat have been married nearly 20 years at the time of the show. By telling us that they've established the link.
Also, they weren't star crossed lovers - it was a political marriage that grew as only a 20 year marriage can.

With Robb/Talisa, we're expected to believe the love story happening in front of us as it unfolds and I just think it's rubbish.

PhiloCypher wrote: »

On your second issue , while i have no idea why they chose to hold back news of Bran and Rick until after Rob and Tulisa had consummated an Cate freed Jaime , those actions are no more or less moronic or believable for that decision imo.

It's no more rational but the point is that you understand why rationality went out the window due to grief. You can't claim that here where Cat has no excuse and just frees Jaime, apparently because she's an idiot and puts no thought into the wider ramifications.

podgemonster

titan18 wrote: »

I agree with Gbear in that there relationship isn't believable. They've been together in about 4-5 scenes I'd say at this stage, and even outside the relationship, why would some randomer be allowed interrupt Robb's war councils, or even get close enough to him like that.

Again, taking into account what we know of their society from the books, sleeping with a random nurse would not be allowed. You can draw parallels to Prince Duncan who give up his crown to marry a low-born, whilst Robb doesn't have a father to throw him out, I can't really see the likes of Roose,Umbers,Karstarks etc agreeing to support Robb after dishonouring his vow to the Freys with a lowborn or a foreigner.

Considering most noble marriages are politically arranged in Westeros e.g Robert and Cersei, Brandon/Eddard and Catelyn, it's considered important that Robb marries someone in the same class structure and that can help him politically. As Jeyne Westerling, whilst she doesn't matter politically too much at the start, she is pretty much at a similar class structure as the Frey girl. Also,with her being a Westerling, looking into the future, after Robb dies, she wasn't going to be killed due to Westerling/Lannister influence, whereas that really wouldn't matter with Tulisa. In regards to the RW, I don't see a way for Tywin to get involved without the Westerling's telling him about Robb and Jeyne.

Just in comparison to the versions of Robb, book Robb is 15, gets wounded in battle, learns about Bran and Rickon and meets Jeyne who's tending to him and it happens. Then ashamed at what he's done, marries Jeyne to protect her honour. Like Eddard, he's taking honour seriously and it was an understandable moment of weakness that led him to sleeping with Jeyne.

TV Robb is about 18-20, is not injured, has not learned about Bran and Rickon, has his mother around him to remind him of his duty and the promise to the Freys, yet still goes with Talisa and deliberately breaks his vow to the Freys. He likes Talisa but by marrying her, he'd be completely the opposite to Ned and honour, and would be marrying her for selfish reasons.

Book Robb in a way had to marry Jeyne, as she was from a noble house, and he was trying to be as honourable as his father was. I don't see it as being believable that Robb would throw away a very important political alliance with the Freys for Talisa.

You don't think it is believable that an 18-20 hot blooded male would risk it all for a beautiful good natured girl, its something that happens all the time in fiction. Its fairly clear that this Robb isn't the same as the Robb we have read about, if anything he is more human, more flawed, a young man out of his depth.

Also your piece on the political arranged marriages while 100% correct won't be captured by the non-reading audience (half of them have forgotten who Walder Frey was), the show just isn't as layered as the books, there isn't a pop at the side of the screen showing class structure or house locations and alliances. It has to be simpler, the writers will twist the 3rd book to make it so.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tulisa was killed off or kills herself in the 3rd series to sow everything up.

titan18

podgemonster wrote: »

You don't think it is believable that an 18-20 hot blooded male would risk it all for a beautiful good natured girl, its something that happens all the time in fiction. Its fairly clear that this Robb isn't the same as the Robb we have read about, if anything he is more human, more flawed, a young man out of his depth.

Also your piece on the political arranged marriages while 100% correct won't be captured by the non-reading audience (half of them have forgotten who Walder Frey was), the show just isn't as layered as the books, there isn't a pop at the side of the screen showing class structure or house locations and alliances. It has to be simpler, the writers will twist the 3rd book to make it so.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tulisa was killed off or kills herself in the 3rd series to sow everything up.

A normal 18-20 year old ya, not one who has been raised to be a lord from a young age, being Eddard Starks son, and has his mother who understands the political marriage, and the Tully words being "Family,Duty,Honour", around him to remind him of his vow.

Also,I suspect Talisa might be killed, but that would disappoint me so much as a book reader. There's a theory going around that when the Blackfish escaped he took Jeyne with him, who may be pregnant with Robb's heir. If Talisa is killed, that would be a pretty clear statement about what won't happen in book 6 or 7. Whilst the theory might be wrong, I'd rather read about in the books than be told about it by changes in the TV show.

PhiloCypher

titan18 wrote: »

I agree with Gbear in that there relationship isn't believable. They've been together in about 4-5 scenes I'd say at this stage, and even outside the relationship, why would some randomer be allowed interrupt Robb's war councils, or even get close enough to him like that.

Again yes we only see them for only 4-5 scenes but months have likely passed from the the time they first meet to the time they hop on the good foot and do the bad thing , the growing attraction and mutual respect between them is amply established in the show if you can't fill in the blanks about the bonding that may have happened off screen between them then I'm afraid that's a lack of imagination on your part. As to her being allowed so close to him it's clearly established that tho a king he is very much a man of the people and would not turn away his men let alone a pretty Lady like Tulisa .

titan18 wrote: »

Again, taking into account what we know of their society from the books, sleeping with a random nurse would not be allowed. You can draw parallels to Prince Duncan who give up his crown to marry a low-born, whilst Robb doesn't have a father to throw him out, I can't really see the likes of Roose,Umbers,Karstarks etc agreeing to support Robb after dishonouring his vow to the Freys with a lowborn or a foreigner.

You're right they won't support him or more specifically Roose won't hence the red wedding , whether she is from Volantis or the crag we still get the same net result people betraying him at the red wedding.

titan18 wrote: »

Considering most noble marriages are politically arranged in Westeros e.g Robert and Cersei, Brandon/Eddard and Catelyn, it's considered important that Robb marries someone in the same class structure and that can help him politically. As Jeyne Westerling, whilst she doesn't matter politically too much at the start, she is pretty much at a similar class structure as the Frey girl. Also,with her being a Westerling, looking into the future, after Robb dies, she wasn't going to be killed due to Westerling/Lannister influence, whereas that really wouldn't matter with Tulisa. In regards to the RW, I don't see a way for Tywin to get involved without the Westerling's telling him about Robb and Jeyne.

I'd have thought Roose would be the obvious candidate for that little betrayal considering what happens at the red wedding wouldn't you ??? As to the whole subject of arranged marriages and the value of doing your duty I think Einhard said it best in another thread.

Einhard wrote: »

As to the above post- is it so implausiable that Robb acts out of love? I don't think so. Afterall, one of the greatest schisms to ever afflict the Seven Kingdoms was born from a king's decision to marry for love and not out of duty.

Gbear wrote: »

It's no more rational but the point is that you understand why rationality went out the window due to grief. You can't claim that here where Cat has no excuse and just frees Jaime, apparently because she's an idiot and puts no thought into the wider ramifications.

You are completely discounting how distraught she is over having all but one of her children in enemy hands(granted we know better), maybe as book purist and a guy(I am too btw , a guy I mean) that doesn't seem like a big deal to you but it would to a woman especially one who had seen her husband beheaded at the whim of a deranged tween.

podgemonster

titan18 wrote: »

A normal 18-20 year old ya, not one who has been raised to be a lord from a young age, being Eddard Starks son, and has his mother who understands the political marriage, and the Tully words being "Family,Duty,Honour", around him to remind him of his vow.

His mother just betrayed him, Neds bones are on course back to Winterfell which is being captured by is former best friend. He may not be wounded like he was in the books but the boy must have been wounded emotionally.

It doesn't matter how well you are raised Robb isn't perfect but Catelyn thinks so and thus this is the image protrayed to us in the books so I can see why you are so defensive of him.

Robb isn't made of stone, he makes a mistake (by falling in love of all things) and loses everything over a piece of skirt.

5starpool

It's actually amusing reading the thread for non book readers. A couple of them are convinced that Stannis is finished as a character, whether he has been captured after the battle or not, and expecting Gendry to emerge as a leader for the Baratheon forces.

calex71

I'm trying to remember what happened Stannis last week? Didn't he mount the wall and lead the assault, that will require some more new writing where there need not have been.

Did I see a prominent writers credit for Martin in ep 9 or is that every week I usually skip the credits

ceegee

calex71 wrote: »

I'm trying to remember what happened Stannis last week? Didn't he mount the wall and lead the assault, that will require some more new writing where there need not have been.

Did I see a prominent writers credit for Martin in ep 9 or is that every week I usually skip the credits

Stannis was dragged away by his own men,

Martin wrote ep 9, pretty sure its the only one he wrote

calex71

ceegee wrote: »

Stannis was dragged away by his own men,

Martin wrote ep 9, pretty sure its the only one he wrote

Must flick through it again I missed that part, wonder how he felt doing the writing then based on what he had to go on

titan18

calex71 wrote: »

Must flick through it again I missed that part, wonder how he felt doing the writing then based on what he had to go on

Neil Marshall, the director gave an interview saying that Martin wrote Stannis in the script to be standing back in a command position, and giving orders, but he came in and decided it'd be better for Stannis to lead the assault himself. Stannis was wrote in the book to be more of a stay back commander, much like Tywin, rather than someone like Robert who always wanted to be at the front of the battle.

Whilst I prefer they'd stick to the book, I don't really mind having Stannis lead from the front as it made for good viewing imo.

Also, something else from the interview, Marshall said that one of the executive producers, so either Benioff or Weiss apparently, pretty much insisted on including the full frontal nudity shot of the girl in the Bronn - Sandor scene. Whilst I'm not against nudity in the show, I don't really think it's necessary for a producer to be telling directors to include it. It should only be included for story reasons imo.

Westeros is down for me atm, so can't link to the interview atm

Funglegunk

titan18 wrote: »

Also, something else from the interview, Marshall said that one of the executive producers, so either Benioff or Weiss apparently, pretty much insisted on including the full frontal nudity shot of the girl in the Bronn - Sandor scene. Whilst I'm not against nudity in the show, I don't really think it's necessary for a producer to be telling directors to include it. It should only be included for story reasons imo.

Podcast here. I didn't realise he was referring to Benihoff or Weiss. Apparently the producer characterised himself as representing the 'perverted part of the audience'. Ugh.

titan18

Funglegunk wrote: »

Podcast here. I didn't realise he was referring to Benihoff or Weiss. Apparently the producer characterised himself as representing the 'perverted part of the audience'. Ugh.

Well he says executive producer, and from what someone who was on set on the westeros forum was saying, it'd be Benioff or Weiss who are saying it.

Sleepy

On the Robb Tullissa thing: think about it. Who's going to be most moved/affected by the star-crossed young lovers getting massacred? That's right, the women that are only watching this because their boyfriends are into it. If keeping the ratings high enough for the series to continue means having to play a little for the cheap seats when it doesn't fundamentally alter the plot, I'm not going to complain about it tbh. It's the exact same as the added nudity to keep the sort of teenage boys who don't read fantasty involved. Frustrating at times but necessary imho.

Gbear

Sleepy wrote: »

On the Robb Tullissa thing: think about it. Who's going to be most moved/affected by the star-crossed young lovers getting massacred? That's right, the women that are only watching this because their boyfriends are into it. If keeping the ratings high enough for the series to continue means having to play a little for the cheap seats when it doesn't fundamentally alter the plot, I'm not going to complain about it tbh. It's the exact same as the added nudity to keep the sort of teenage boys who don't read fantasty involved. Frustrating at times but necessary imho.

Perhaps. Doesn't mean we can't moan about it though.

Wetbench4

ceegee wrote: »

Stannis was dragged away by his own men,

Martin wrote ep 9, pretty sure its the only one he wrote

I definitely heard somewhere that martin wrote the last two episodes, ep 9 & 10. Will look for a link if i can remember where i saw it.