Racism Euros - Panorama tonight 8.30 BBC1

carlop

mike65 wrote: »

I was making a point in a melodramatic fashion.

No one here should think "ah shure, I'm Irish they'll love me" while secretly hoping the mixed race English lads at the next table get set upon by local fascists instead.

Seriously, are you on drugs tonight or something? First you say that you want a 'Paddy' to get smashed, and then you proceed to say that people want to see Polish fascists racially assault someone??

I understand at times being an Englishman living in Ireland must be tough because there are some idiots about, but you're really getting carried away.

bwatson

Happy Monday wrote: »

10 German bombers. Stuttgart 2006. You Tube.
Depends on the match as well.
Argentina, Spain, Ireland - some angle is found.
In every game the national anthem is sung at least once to intimidate the opposition.

OK, so far you have failed to come up with any specific examples of England fans taking part in racist chanting.

You say that "Argentina, Spain, Ireland - some angle is found", could you please then find, and relay this angle?

I'm particularly perplexed that you seem to associate the singing of a national anthem in order to support the national side with acts of racism.

Happy Monday

bwatson wrote: »

OK, so far you have failed to come up with any specific examples of England fans taking part in racist chanting.

You say that "Argentina, Spain, Ireland - some angle is found", could you please then find, and relay this angle?

I'm particularly perplexed that you seem to associate the singing of a national anthem in order to support the national side with acts of racism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukqo_3f-sB4&feature=related

Check this out.
England fans burning a German flag after getting clobbered 2 years ago.
If Irish fans did this I'd stop supporting them.

CSF

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukqo_3f-sB4&feature=related

Check this out.
England fans burning a German flag after getting clobbered 2 years ago.
If Irish fans did this I'd stop supporting them.

That makes you pretty silly to be fair.

plasmaguy

I can understand English fans hating Germany and vice versa.

But Polish fans admiring Hitler? FFS!!

bwatson

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukqo_3f-sB4&feature=related

Check this out.
England fans burning a German flag after getting clobbered 2 years ago.
If Irish fans did this I'd stop supporting them.

While the burning of a flag is crass and classless, in this situation I think you would struggle to argue that it is an act of racism. The flag is clearly being seen as a representation of the team and the fans of a rival football institution in this context and its burning doesn't suggest a racist view of Germany, its population in general, and its institutions any more than the burning of an Oxford flag by Swindon fans suggests a hatred of the English as a people... I think deep down you realize that in the context it isn't a demonstration of racism too. I won't disagree that it is a stupid (not to mention dangerous) act though.

So back on topic, you were unable to find any example of England fans singing racist songs then?

CSF

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Seems like the British media have found their new scapegoat.

How many articles and programs is that now on the 'racism in Europe' ?

Reminds me of those 'YOU'RE GONNA GET STABBED AND RAPED AND KILLED IN SOUTH AFRICA' bollocks.

Did you not just watch that video? That is absolutely repulsive. That doesn't happen in the League Of Ireland, that doesn't happen in Scotland or England. When you bring me a modern equivalent of fans getting kicked around the stands because of the colour of their skin, your point about media scapegoating might hold some weight.

Jelle1880

CSF wrote: »

Did you not just watch that video? That is absolutely repulsive. That doesn't happen in the League Of Ireland, that doesn't happen in Scotland or England. When you bring me a modern equivalent of fans getting kicked around the stands because of the colour of their skin, your point about media scapegoating might hold some weight.

Actually I haven't seen the video, I can't get it over here.

But what I meant with that was: This is the third of fourth piece about it if I recall.

It's the same thing that happened when South Africa got the World Cup, and that went by without a problem.

We all know Poland and Ukraine have issues, but does anyone seriously think they'll roam the streets, KKK style, looking out for anyone who is not white ?

Their fans may be nuts, but so are their governments.
And I am 100% positive that they will do anything they can to make sure visiting fans are safe, even if it means wading into their own countrymen with batons, tear gas, horses,...

CSF

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Actually I haven't seen the video, would like to though to make up my mind.

But what I meant with that was: This is the third of fourth piece about it if I recall.

It's the same thing that happened when South Africa got the World Cup, and that went by without a problem.

We all know Poland and Ukraine have issues, but does anyone seriously think they'll have death squads waiting at the border for any black, asian,... England fan trying to get across ?

No, but there is a pretty decent chance that people wil be assaulted based on where they are from. This is worthy of media coverage surely? There wouldn't be such worries if the games were being hosted in Ireland (obviously we haven't the infrastructure but I'm just trying to illustrate the point).

stovelid

Always got to laugh at the misguided Irish notion that all you have to do is tell a load of foreign nutters that you're Irish and they'll suddenly be your best mates.

Jelle1880

Agreed, but there is a difference between media coverage and (what I believe it's turning in to) scaring people.

I just saw parts of it (including the Asian students being attacked) and yeah, those are horrible scenes.
But again, I'm 100% positive that authorities will crack down hard.

CSF

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Agreed, but there is a difference between media coverage and (what I believe it's turning in to) scaring people.

I just saw parts of it (including the Asian students being attacked) and yeah, those are horrible scenes.
But again, I'm 100% positive that authorities will crack down hard.

People need to be wary. I wouldn't go as far as to say not to go, but I don't think Euro 2012 should have been held in Ukraine.

stovelid

One thing that should be remembered is that the scare stories about South Africa centred around random crime, not politically motivated and/or football violence which is probably harder to police.

wonderfullife

Jesus Christ Mike65 has had an absolute shocker and gone down many notches in a lot of books........

Hoping any human being "gets smashed" is a joke, hoping that good, decent Irish soccer fans, spending money they probably don't have to spend to follow Traps Army, get smashed is just sick.

On a personal level i took a few slaps in Riga. Latvian guy comes up to me asks am i English i say "no im irish", thinking well that's me saved but nope. The police didn't seem to care and in fact were more interested in getting 40 euro off my mate to not arrest him for drunk n disorderly!

It's not fair or proportionate to tar all of eastern europe with the same brush. I'm sure 99% of Poles/Ukranians will fully support the Euros and their guests in a positive manner. That's as much good business sense as anything; the local shop owners etc will want to hand out a big welcome to keep everyone happy and spending money.

As always there is a minority and if trouble kicks off there will be questions to answer at UEFA. Mind you, people had similar fears with South Africa and that passed off pretty well. Hopefully it's the football that gets talked about. Not ANYBODY getting smashed.

Jelle1880

To be fair, let's say you take the Euro's away from Ukraine (which won't happen at this point in time, but purely hypothetical).

What's next ?

No World Cup in Russia ?
No World Cup in Brazil ?
No World Cup in Qatar ?

After all, all those countries too have big issues with racism and/or violence (modern day slavery, in Qatar's case).

Perhaps just keep it in Europe then ?
Western Europe, to be specific ?

stovelid

No offence folks but locals often don't magically differentiate between a load of Irish lads and English lads on the piss. As if Irish lads don't act the bollocks abroad.

Sure people will be fine but anybody who is going to their first European away game should not be thinking being Irish confers immunity and should keep their eyes open.

smokedeels

Jelle1880 wrote: »

To be fair, let's say you take the Euro's away from Ukraine (which won't happen at this point in time, but purely hypothetical).

What's next ?

No World Cup in Russia ?
No World Cup in Brazil ?
No World Cup in Qatar ?

After all, all those countries too have big issues with racism and/or violence (modern day slavery, in Qatar's case).

Perhaps just keep it in Europe then ?
Western Europe, to be specific ?

I wouldn't support a boycott, however the media is right to highlight the issue, with an aim to put pressure on governments to tackle the right-wing elements in their countries.

This topic is about the BBC report, but Amnesty have raised concerns about racially motivated crimes in Russia and the Ukraine for years.

Pedro K

I don't like that they didn't distinguish between ultras and hooligans. They are not the same thing and people who watch a show like that may come away with an idea that they are.

ColeTrain

Just found this on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXY4oa5cNAg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxmU29KJo_E

Mr. Presentable

bwatson wrote: »

While the burning of a flag is crass and classless, in this situation I think you would struggle to argue that it is an act of racism. The flag is clearly being seen as a representation of the team and the fans of a rival football institution in this context and its burning doesn't suggest a racist view of Germany, its population in general, and its institutions any more than the burning of an Oxford flag by Swindon fans suggests a hatred of the English as a people... I think deep down you realize that in the context it isn't a demonstration of racism too. I won't disagree that it is a stupid (not to mention dangerous) act though.

So back on topic, you were unable to find any example of England fans singing racist songs then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X3vwPLCB1c

froog

i think this was a shameful move from the BBC tbh. a few days before the euros and the entire western world is writing ukraine off as a nation of backward savages. there are racist idiots everywhere, they're not confined to eastern european countries. it's rife in spain and italy for example. and it's a bit rich coming from the BBC after the long history of racism in english football.


let's give them a chance shall we?

doncarlos

mike65 wrote: »

Part of me hopes some Paddies get smashed on day one so the smugness is wiped away pretty quickly.

Disgraceful comment. Part of me hopes your next shíte is a hedgehog.

carlop

Had to have a slight lol at 5.40 in the second video. Have a look at the flag and scarf in the top left-hand corner of the far-right bar.

some pretty shocking stuff in that video. Unfortunately the racist chanting is not restricted to Poland and Ukraine, and is the type of thing that can be seen in many stadiums throughout Europe.

However the attack in the stadium in Kharkiv is horrible, and the general impression given of Ukraine is definitely not good.

What annoys me is that Uefa and Fifa have recently cited hooliganism as a reason not to award tournaments to both Italy and England. I'll admit both have a problem (especially the former), but giving tournaments to Poland-Ukraine and Russia strikes me as very hypocritical, and bordering on the corrupt.

Cantona's Collars

Having watched both the Panorama special and the one on SSN it seems that the hooligans are rubbing their hands with glee at the chance to pit themselves against the rest of Europe.Danny Dyer also uncovered this when he did his series about hooliganism.

A lot has been said about how the World Cup in South Africa passed off peacefully,the difference is that South Africans weren't organising training camps to help them attack foreigners,I have a bad feeling we are going to see some shameful scenes from the streets of Ukraine & Poland over the next month.

Warper

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Yes they could have done some serious damage, but there aim was still to take on anybody who wanted to fight or Gardai.If you were at the Ireland v Poland game in Croker few years ago you might have idea as what im on about.

Their aim was to create chaos, full-stop. Do not to rationalise their behaviour saying they were only troublesome to those that wanted to fight. Total crap tbh. English fans have the worst record of hooliganism practically anywhere. Today marks the anniversary of Heysel. Were those English fans just looking to take on anybody who wanted to fight too? What is your logic for them?

Beefy78

I didn't watch the Panorama show because I suspected that it would be a fair bit of sensationalism, just as the shows prior to SA 2010 were and the ones just before Brazil 2014 no doubt will be.

That said, I don't think it's anything other than a very good thing that this issue is brought out now into people's consiousness. I'm going to the Euros with a couple of other English lads, one of whom is mixed-race. The media coverage is encouraging us to be savvy and keep our wits about us, which I don't think is bad advice.

I just hope that everyone - English, Irish and everyone else, can just go over there, enjoy themselves, enjoy the football, enjoy a few beers in good weather and get home safely.

cournioni

Over sensationalist rubbish from the BBC yet again. Didn't they do it for South Africa and Germany before also? Of course there will be odd spots of bother, most of which will be organised between rival firms in the woods, but I wouldn't expect full scale riots inside or just outside the stadiums.

I remember heading to the CL final in Rome with people saying that United fans would get savaged by the Roma and Lazio fans. The only bother I heard of was between fellow United fans. The locals were quite friendly to be honest.

aidan24326

carlop wrote: »

What annoys me is that Uefa and Fifa have recently cited hooliganism as a reason not to award tournaments to both Italy and England. I'll admit both have a problem (especially the former), but giving tournaments to Poland-Ukraine and Russia strikes me as very hypocritical, and bordering on the corrupt.

It's long been known that FIFA are corrupt.

But Ukraine does have a huge problem with racism and violsnce. To say that 'England are no better' is not true nor fair. Yes England had a huge problem with hooliganism back in the day but it's to their credit that they've almost entirely stamped that out. Racism still exists but tends to be confined to a small minority of idiots.

Madworld

zerks wrote: »

e.Danny Dyer also uncovered this when he did his series about hooliganism.

Ain't he a propa naughy geeza.

You watch Danny Dyer shows.

southlouth type

The BBC docu has maybe had the wrong effect on some people , sensationalist though it may have been ( as are most things connected to football violence ) but anyone who is travelling should be very aware of the extreme right wing elements in both countries . There are huge problems with nazi skins and facist thugs who run lots of ultras groups in Poland and Ukraine and these groups are not just going to disappear for a month . There will no doubt be a huge police presence as the gaze of all Europe will be upon them BUT the far right will use this as a great chance to cause some mayhem . Groups like Antifa etc have there hands full trying to combat these boneheads hellbent on mayhem ..

CSF

I don't see how this can be seen as particularly sensationalist. I've seen that one clip alone and that in itself is worthy of serious reporting. Global/continental events shouldn't be held in stadiums where that kind of thing goes on. I'm still a little affected from having watched it.

The_Kew_Tour

Warper wrote: »

Their aim was to create chaos, full-stop. Do not to rationalise their behaviour saying they were only troublesome to those that wanted to fight. Total crap tbh. English fans have the worst record of hooliganism practically anywhere. Today marks the anniversary of Heysel. Were those English fans just looking to take on anybody who wanted to fight too? What is your logic for them?

They were Liverpool fans and not England fans.

Fight_Night

It's obviously going to be sensationalised to a degree, all of these programmes will be. However as said the videos speak for themselves, you wouldn't see that carry on in the UK and if you did it would not go unpunished. Personally don't think that Poland or the Ukraine(in particular) are ready for hosting a tournament like this.

listermint

stovelid wrote: »

No offence folks but locals often don't magically differentiate between a load of Irish lads and English lads on the piss. As if Irish lads don't act the bollocks abroad.

Sure people will be fine but anybody who is going to their first European away game should not be thinking being Irish confers immunity and should keep their eyes open.

Eh have you not mentioned this point several times...... Zzzzzz

Happy Monday

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

They were Liverpool fans and not England fans.

Those guys we saw last night were fans of Polish and Ukrainian clubs not Poland or Ukraine fans.

steelcityblues

cournioni wrote: »

Over sensationalist rubbish from the BBC yet again. Didn't they do it for South Africa and Germany before also? Of course there will be odd spots of bother, most of which will be organised between rival firms in the woods, but I wouldn't expect full scale riots inside or just outside the stadiums.

I remember heading to the CL final in Rome with people saying that United fans would get savaged by the Roma and Lazio fans. The only bother I heard of was between fellow United fans. The locals were quite friendly to be honest.

A lot of those in the BBC news dept are of an extreme left persuasion, and consider anything celebrating England, its identity, or the flag of St. George being displayed as 'xenophobic'. Which is why they show this crap before every big tournament, to get as many plebs to stay away and not celebrate.

LuckyLloyd

steelcityblues wrote: »

cournioni wrote: »

Over sensationalist rubbish from the BBC yet again. Didn't they do it for South Africa and Germany before also? Of course there will be odd spots of bother, most of which will be organised between rival firms in the woods, but I wouldn't expect full scale riots inside or just outside the stadiums.

I remember heading to the CL final in Rome with people saying that United fans would get savaged by the Roma and Lazio fans. The only bother I heard of was between fellow United fans. The locals were quite friendly to be honest.

A lot of those in the BBC news dept are of an extreme left persuasion, and consider anything celebrating England, its identity, or the flag of St. George being displayed as 'xenophobic'. Which is why they show this crap before every big tournament, to get as many plebs to stay away and not celebrate.

Oh wow, words fail me.

stovelid

listermint wrote: »

Eh have you not mentioned this point several times...... Zzzzzz

Top contribution.

Just remember that an inflatable hammer and a belt of joxer goes to Stuttgart will keep the nasty boot boys away.

The_Kew_Tour

Happy Monday wrote: »

Those guys we saw last night were fans of Polish and Ukrainian clubs not Poland or Ukraine fans.

A thing that people tend to forget is that a lot of English Hooligans are doctors, lawyers, bankers etc. Not trying to stereotype but they tend to go on these trips for the buzz more then the actual hatred. Not all of course but quite a lot.

Then you have the Eastern European fans. They tend come from more uneducated backgrounds where Nationalism to them is top priority.

I have been attacked by Neo Nazi in the past after football matches. They are on different level to what England was 20-30 years ago, believe me a mate of my still has scars to prove it.

Balmed Out

Id guess that the security will be a lot heavier then it was in any of the matches shown on the documentary. From talking to Polish friends its definately a problem over there, be wide of "skinheads with no necks". I reckon if you dont stray from the beaten track and stick in groups we will be ok.

Looking forward to it though.Berlin Friday week, Poznan Saturday:D

adamski8

well it seems to me that there are a hell of a lot of hooligans there that are as intense as they come but some things that should hopefully mean less trouble for the euros:
-the hooligans clubs arent playing.
-ticket prices are too high for them and why would they be coming to matches not involving poland/ukraine anyway
-surely there nationalists ways have them targetting other races that are living in their countries, they wouldnt have such an axe to grid about visitors
-they will probably be most active during the home nations games so id be more aware there
-police should be the most forceful that they have ever been
-media presence will put a lot of pressure on security to do their jobs

im sure there will be trouble with people being in the wrong place etc but i dont think its going to be a bloodbath, beatings at every corner as some are nearly suggesting

antomorro-sei

Just watched this there. Shocking stuff. That scene at the end where the Indian students were being attacked was frightening. I never knew how open the racism and facism were in Poland and Ukraine. Shocking stuff.

St Pats played one of the teams from the show, Karpaty Lviv. Heard some mad stories about the trip, although I didn't go. Not sure if there was any trouble with them because they were Irish though.

tigger123

I saw the show last night, pretty horrendous.

I'd have to think though with the worlds media watching that the Polish/Ukraine police would have to prevent this kind of thing?

TangyZizzle

The fact that BBC are tarring everyone east of Germany as skinheads is obviously ridiculous, but thinking that there won't be any trouble is equally ridiculous.

The Polish and Ukrainian lads have had to put up with two seasons of heightened security, punishments and even heavier handed policing than they are used to.. it's always been heavy, let's not get into that, though.

The fact of the matter is, the majority of them see the Euros as THE cause for this and as such see the fans travelling to them as also being the cause. They will be looking to take out their frustrations. There's been plenty of protests and in game actions as well as graffiti popping up all over that side of the continent stating their intentions. No doubt some of it is just bravado, but surely not all of it is.

listermint

stovelid wrote: »

Top contribution.

Just remember that an inflatable hammer and a belt of joxer goes to Stuttgart will keep the nasty boot boys away.

So your top contribution is that all irish supporters travelling thing they are loved by everyone ? clappedety clap....

Im going and i certainly wont be taking any chances, ive travelled enough to know when to leg it. I also know that alot of people dont believe that crap either that the irish are untouchable so its getting tiring after your 3rd attempt at repeating it.

deisedevil

This might cause some confusion:

http://www1.skysports.com/football/n...walk-off-pitch

In an interview with France Football, Balotelli said: "If someone throws a banana at me in the street, I will go to prison because I will kill him. Racism is unacceptable to me, I cannot bear it.

"I hope there will not be a problem at the Euros because if it does happen I would straight away leave the pitch and go home. We are in 2012, it can't happen."

The Irish fans are going to drive him crazy!

http://www.fyffes.com/gns/our-company/Fyffes-news.aspx

Ole Ole Ole – Euro 2012 Here We Come!

In the late 80’s and early 90’s inflatable bananas were commonplace at many football matches, particularly for Irish fans at Euro 88 and Italia 90. They then disappeared until the ‘on the ball’ marketing team sent a raft of Fyffes inflatable bananas to local Ireland supporters for the 2012 European Championship playoffs. They were loved by all fans - so much so that Fyffes decided to produce a specially commissioned inflatable banana for the 2012 European Championship in Poland. Fyffes have partnered with Ireland’s national broadcaster to distribute the inflatable bananas when they are broadcasting from Poland.

stesaurus

deisedevil wrote: »

This might cause some confusion:

http://www1.skysports.com/football/n...walk-off-pitch

In an interview with France Football, Balotelli said: "If someone throws a banana at me in the street, I will go to prison because I will kill him. Racism is unacceptable to me, I cannot bear it.

"I hope there will not be a problem at the Euros because if it does happen I would straight away leave the pitch and go home. We are in 2012, it can't happen."

The Irish fans are going to drive him crazy!

http://www.fyffes.com/gns/our-company/Fyffes-news.aspx

Ole Ole Ole – Euro 2012 Here We Come!

In the late 80’s and early 90’s inflatable bananas were commonplace at many football matches, particularly for Irish fans at Euro 88 and Italia 90. They then disappeared until the ‘on the ball’ marketing team sent a raft of Fyffes inflatable bananas to local Ireland supporters for the 2012 European Championship playoffs. They were loved by all fans - so much so that Fyffes decided to produce a specially commissioned inflatable banana for the 2012 European Championship in Poland. Fyffes have partnered with Ireland’s national broadcaster to distribute the inflatable bananas when they are broadcasting from Poland.

Balotelli must be really stupid. So it's ok to murder someone now as long as you feel you've been racially abused. :eek:

What a muppet, he's opened himself up for a lot of abuse and I wouldn't be surprised to see a few opponents try to get a rise out of him now because of it.

That thing about the bananas could be absolutely hysterical if he does take it the wrong way.

Happy Monday

s.welstead wrote: »

Balotelli must be really stupid. So it's ok to murder someone now as long as you feel you've been racially abused. :eek:

What a muppet, he's opened himself up for a lot of abuse and I wouldn't be surprised to see a few opponents try to get a rise out of him now because of it.

That thing about the bananas could be absolutely hysterical if he does take it the wrong way.

Richard Dunne and John O'Shea should use his anger against him.
Stand on his foot, kick in the shins etc etc.
This guy is a walking living timebomb.
Might get him sent off.

adamski8

it is a little funny how some people are generalising what scum there is there. Glass houses stuff not just by the english but the irish too:
Remember the irish scum who beat to death the polish man not too long ago http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0330/20-year-old-gets-life-for-polish-mans-murder.html

If ireland get euro 2020 will polish people be mentioning this case as a reason not to give it to us.

Beefy78

s.welstead wrote: »

Balotelli must be really stupid. So it's ok to murder someone now as long as you feel you've been racially abused. :eek:

He didn't say it was ok, he said how he'd react.