The Ubiquity of Rugby

ben_bernanke

eyescreamcone wrote: »

We have beaten them tho
And that's not a fair comparison as Brazil have a huge population and use every inch of it to maximum potential

soccer is a religon in brazil

rugby is a religon in new zealand

neither are religons in ireland but you know what is a religon in ireland , GAA , none of those countries have to compete for resources with a national game or games , dont ignore how significant this is

eyescreamcone

You do know that there is more people playing soccer than GAA in spite of the GAAs status

Yamanoto

eyescreamcone wrote: »

No elitism in NZ would have a lot to do with this statistic!!!

Still waiting for evidence of the above, when you're ready.

Monty Burnz

eyescreamcone wrote: »

You do know that there is more people playing soccer than GAA in spite of the GAAs status

And we are still sh!t at soccer. How depressing.

marienbad

eyescreamcone wrote: »

They have been better than us because they have not excluded any part of their society in their trawl for potential international standard talent.
Ireland Rugby has ignored large portions of its potential talent base.
No internationals from Finglas, Tallaght or Knocknaheeney shows this to be true.

If only the "Limerick situation" was replicated throughout the country then I'm sure that we wouldn't have gone 107 years without a win v NZ!

Elitism might ensure 'caps for the boys' but in the white heat of international competition it will also ensure continued defeats to countries with a similar population.

There is no doubt that rugby was elitist in Ireland and never was there a greater resentment against this than in my own city of Limerick and we had a huge chip ( a giant sequoia actually) about it and felt many limerick players recieved less caps that they should have . Even the notion of the BIG 5 lent credance to that idea . But times change.

TV arrived, money arrived the Heineken cup arrived , professionalism arrived. So you have the Jurassic Age, The Early Modern Period , and The Modern Era - judge rugby as you find it today . And today it is one of the most adaptable and receptive to change sports you can find.

Monty Burnz

Irish rugby is so elitist that Leinster recently launched the "Route 6'6" initiative - an open trial for players who could turn up and demonstrate their ball skills and athleticism. It was so elitist, only people 6'6" high could apply. I'm sure they looked into their old school ties/accents/professions at some point... :rolleyes:

Mr_Spaceman

DB10 wrote: »

I agree with some of your points but the last line for me is rubbish.

The Irish soccer team is practically all Ireland at this stage guys like McLean and Gibson from Derry etc, and many more. Theres as many lads from the 6 counties on the soccer team as the rugby team, so I think your point is a bit off.

And I am a soccer fan btw and really do not like rugby too much. At the same time I respect lads like O'Driscoll and O'Connell are Irish sporting legends, but it's just not really my thing.

Nonsense.

A couple of defectors hardly makes it an all-Ireland team. Northern Ireland still exist you know, so you're being a bit disrespectful. If we had a Trapattoni-like figure we'd do a hell of a lot better.

Anyway, seeing as this is about Rugby, I can watch the big games and the Heineken Cup final was a great spectacle, but I would struggle to raise much interest beyond that.

flyswatter

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Irish rugby is so elitist that Leinster recently launched the "Route 6'6" initiative - an open trial for players who could turn up and demonstrate their ball skills and athleticism. It was so elitist, only people 6'6" high could apply. I'm sure they looked into their old school ties/accents/professions at some point... :rolleyes:

If you look at the Irish team, the majority of the players went to private schools, especially Leinster players but even many of the Munster players.

washman3

marienbad wrote: »

There is no doubt that rugby was elitist in Ireland and never was there a greater resentment against this than in my own city of Limerick and we had a huge chip ( a giant sequoia actually) about it and felt many limerick players recieved less caps that they should have . Even the notion of the BIG 5 lent credance to that idea . But times change.

TV arrived, money arrived the Heineken cup arrived , professionalism arrived. So you have the Jurassic Age, The Early Modern Period , and The Modern Era - judge rugby as you find it today . And today it is one of the most adaptable and receptive to change sports you can find.

Can you explain why the club game in Limerick is now on its knees.??

ormond lad

flyswatter wrote: »

If you look at the Irish team, the majority of the players went to private schools, especially Leinster players but even many of the Munster players.

None of the munster players who went to school in limerick, which is a considerable proportion of the Munster squad, went to a private school so its only those who went to rockwell or either cork school

washman3 wrote: »

Can you explain why the club game in Limerick is now on its knees.??

Dont think it is at all. How is it?

marienbad

washman3 wrote: »

Can you explain why the club game in Limerick is now on its knees.??

Seing as it is Limerick you ask about I can take a ''stab'' at it, but what is your definition of on its knees ?

There is no doubt it has changed since the advent of the Munster phenomenon and this was perhaps inevitable. But as Mark Twain said ''rumours of my demise are greatly exagerated''

I was a a few matches this season and and it was just outstanding stuff. The Shannon Young Munster game in Thomond was a real cracker and was a uniquely Limerick affair . A bunch of us from our extended family were at it and my sons were all cookies and grandsons all Shannon and this was replicated throughout the crowd . The bitterness and begrudgery was as bitter and begrudging as ever and we all left as we came - friends. Nothing quite like it.

Monty Burnz

flyswatter wrote: »

If you look at the Irish team, the majority of the players went to private schools, especially Leinster players but even many of the Munster players.

Already answered many times on this thread...

pajunior

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

Nonsense.

A couple of defectors hardly makes it an all-Ireland team. Northern Ireland still exist you know, so you're being a bit disrespectful. If we had a Trapattoni-like figure we'd do a hell of a lot better.

Anyway, seeing as this is about Rugby, I can watch the big games and the Heineken Cup final was a great spectacle, but I would struggle to raise much interest beyond that.

The poster was making the point that there are as many players on the Irish Soccer team from outside the republic as there are on the Rugby team. I don't think he was trying to have a go at the NI team.

eyescreamcone

pajunior wrote: »

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

Nonsense.

A couple of defectors hardly makes it an all-Ireland team. Northern Ireland still exist you know, so you're being a bit disrespectful. If we had a Trapattoni-like figure we'd do a hell of a lot better.

Anyway, seeing as this is about Rugby, I can watch the big games and the Heineken Cup final was a great spectacle, but I would struggle to raise much interest beyond that.

The poster was making the point that there are as many players on the Irish Soccer team from outside the republic as there are on the Rugby team. I don't think he was trying to have a go at the NI team.

All the soccer players must hold Irish passports.
Probably not a requirement for the rugby team I'd say

pajunior

eyescreamcone wrote: »

All the soccer players must hold Irish passports.
Probably not a requirement for the rugby team I'd say

No because it isn't a republic of Ireland team.

Did Leon Best and Johnathon Walters hold an Irish passport when they played for Ireland? I saw an interview with one of them where he admitted that the only time he ever set foot in Ireland before playing for the u-21 team was for a stag in Kilkenny!
Liam Lawernce? Real paddys those lads, but at least they aren't from a posh area

eyescreamcone

pajunior wrote: »

No because it isn't a republic of Ireland team.

Did Leon Best and Johnathon Walters hold an Irish passport when they played for Ireland? I saw an interview with one of them where he admitted that the only time he ever set foot in Ireland before playing for the u-21 team was for a stag in Kilkenny!
Liam Lawernce? Real paddys those lads, but at least they aren't from a posh area

FIFA rules state that you must hold a local passport in order to play for a national team. The only FIFA countries that are not actual states are the 4 UK teams (historical reasons).

pajunior

eyescreamcone wrote: »

FIFA rules state that you must hold a local passport in order to play for a national team. The only FIFA countries that are not actual states are the 4 UK teams (historical reasons).

So English lads with little to no connection to this Island other than applying for a passport are more deserving of your admiration then Irish lads who have lived in Ireland all their lives?

Also how easy is it to get an Irish passport? Liam Lawernce has one grandparent who is Irish does that entitle him to a passport?
Also do these FIFA rules apply to u-21's? Does James McClean have dual citizenship?

Slattsy

This is how sport works in Ireland..

If you're ****e at soccer you play GAA.
If you're ****e at soccer and GAA, then you play rugby.

Monty Burnz

Slattsy wrote: »

This is how sport works in Ireland..

If you're ****e at soccer you play GAA.
If you're ****e at soccer and GAA, then you play rugby.

You do understand that not everyone wants to play soccer? And I'm not sure who decided it was the objective pinnacle of sporting achievement either.

Of course if you are English and you are not good enough to get a sniff of the national soccer team, you play Irish soccer...

pajunior

Slattsy wrote: »

This is how sport works in Ireland..

If you're ****e at soccer you play GAA.
If you're ****e at soccer and GAA, then you play rugby.

Shane Horgan wasn't sh*t at GAA, he was quite good.

I doubt Henry Shefflin has ever tried to play soccer to a competitive nature.

Your post is complete bs and I should probably ignore it but there you go.

eyescreamcone

pajunior wrote: »

So English lads with little to no connection to this Island other than applying for a passport are more deserving of your admiration then Irish lads who have lived in Ireland all their lives?

Also how easy is it to get an Irish passport? Liam Lawernce has one grandparent who is Irish does that entitle him to a passport?
Also do these FIFA rules apply to u-21's? Does James McClean have dual citizenship?

First of all I'm not a FIFA canon lawyer but here's my spin on it.
It is as easy or hard for a footballer/rugby player/acrobat to get an Irish passport as it is for anyone else.
Liam Lawrence must have met the criteria for an Irish passport.

When McClean payed for NI underage teams he must have had a UK passport.
He now has an Irish passport and as he never played a senior game for NI he can play for us.
Whether he holds both? I don't know - ask him.

pajunior

eyescreamcone wrote: »

First of all I'm not a FIFA canon lawyer but here's my spin on it.
It is as easy or hard for a footballer/rugby player/acrobat to get an Irish passport as it is for anyone else.
Liam Lawrence must have met the criteria for an Irish passport.

When McClean payed for NI underage teams he must have had a UK passport.
He now has an Irish passport and as he never played a senior game for NI he can play for us.
Whether he holds both? I don't know - ask him.

Sorry, didn't mean to give you the third degree it just sounds very strange to me.

Maybe I should have just left you with the original question. So English lads with little to no connection to this Island other than applying for a passport are more deserving of your admiration then Irish lads who have lived in Ireland all their lives?

Duckworth_Luas

Slattsy wrote: »

This is how sport works in Ireland..

If you're ****e at soccer you play GAA.
If you're ****e at soccer and GAA, then you play rugby.

Stupidest post yet!

eyescreamcone

Good question!
Ideally I'd like to see local lads representing our national team.
However, due to the size of our country and the level of competition we face in order to qualify for tournaments (unlike rugby) we need to use every rule/trick in the book to our advantage.
The truth is, if we never reached out to our diaspora and their children we would not have qualified for any tournaments. We may need to do this more in the future.

So we have learnt to love
Mick McCarthy
Jason McAteer
John Aldridge
Mark Lawrenson
Kevin Kilbane - turned down England U-18 because he said he was Irish.
Ronan O'Gara

Irish Guitarist

One sport is as mind numbingly boring as the next as far as I'm concerned.

Monty Burnz

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

One sport is as mind numbingly boring as the next as far as I'm concerned.

Yup - each to their own. If you don't like it, don't watch it.

eyescreamcone

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

One sport is as mind numbingly boring as the next as far as I'm concerned.

That's interesting - please drop by again when you're nearby

Ares

eyescreamcone wrote: »

FIFA rules state that you must hold a local passport in order to play for a national team. The only FIFA countries that are not actual states are the 4 UK teams (historical reasons).

O rly?! :rolleyes:

Faroe Islands? British Virgin Islands? Bermuda? French Guiana? Guadaleoupe? Martinique? Montserrat? Saint Martin? Sint Maarten? Turks and Caicos Islands? US Virgin Islands? Guam? Macau? New Caledonia? American Samoa?

There are in fact 19 members of FIFA that are not actual states. A huge difference from the mere 4 which you wrongly insisted was the case.

Monty Burnz

Ares wrote: »

Saint Martin? Sint Maarten?

Not to distract from your point, but I think these two are the same team.

Ares

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Not to distract from your point, but I think these two are the same team.

No, its two halves of the same island known commonlly as Saint Martin. Sint Maarten is the Dutch half with the other half being the French half. A situation like North/South Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Martin

Monty Burnz

Ares wrote: »

No, its two halves of the same island known commonlly as Saint Martin. Sint Maarten is the Dutch half with the other half being the French half. A situation like North/South Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Martin

I stand corrected sir.

Magill

Why are football fans acting all butt hurt ?? Most PROPER sporting fans i know enjoy both football and rugby, including myself.

Irish Guitarist

eyescreamcone wrote: »

That's interesting - please drop by again when you're nearby

Thanks. That's nice of you.

fissureseal

pajunior wrote: »

eyescreamcone wrote: »

FIFA rules state that you must hold a local passport in order to play for a national team. The only FIFA countries that are not actual states are the 4 UK teams (historical reasons).

So English lads with little to no connection to this Island other than applying for a passport are more deserving of your admiration then Irish lads who have lived in Ireland all their lives?

Also how easy is it to get an Irish passport? Liam Lawernce has one grandparent who is Irish does that entitle him to a passport?
Also do these FIFA rules apply to u-21's? Does James McClean have dual citizenship?

Your post is a bit ironic considering under IRB rules you can qualify to play for a country If you have been resident in the country for 3 years prior to the international . Have you forgotten the whole grannygate controversy round 2000 where a no of welsh players were found out to have been playing for Wales with no qualification . Also the all blacks seem happy enough to play plenty of pacific islanders and vice versa where nationality seems to be interchangeable depending on how good a player you are . There's also been plenty of gnashing of teeth among rugby fans bout Isa nacewa that he played 7s rugby for Fiji ( even tho he was born in new zeal ) in that he could be now playing for Ireland otherwise cos he s lived here a few years . Seems bizarre to me that you can play for a country just cos you've lived there a few years but plenty of rugby nations seem happy enough to make use of it . In fairness the Irish soccer players who weren't born here have at least an Irish family heritage ( cascarino an obvious exception !! ) but travelling journeymen rugby players playing for likes of Italy etc seems wrong to me

pajunior

fissureseal wrote: »

Your post is a bit ironic considering under IRB rules you can qualify to play for a country If you have been resident in the country for 3 years prior to the international . Have you forgotten the whole grannygate controversy round 2000 where a no of welsh players were found out to have been playing for Wales with no qualification . Also the all blacks seem happy enough to play plenty of pacific islanders and vice versa where nationality seems to be interchangeable depending on how good a player you are . There's also been plenty of gnashing of teeth among rugby fans bout Isa nacewa that he played 7s rugby for Fiji ( even tho he was born in new zeal ) in that he could be now playing for Ireland otherwise cos he s lived here a few years . Seems bizarre to me that you can play for a country just cos you've lived there a few years but plenty of rugby nations seem happy enough to make use of it . In fairness the Irish soccer players who weren't born here have at least an Irish family heritage ( cascarino an obvious exception !! ) but travelling journeymen rugby players playing for likes of Italy etc seems wrong to me

I completely agree. As I said before I was pointing out to a poster that it was ridiculous that he thought the Irish Rugby team as foreign because of players born outside the republic, when the Irish soccer team is probably more guilty.

This Autumn Richard Strauss a South African player will become eligible to play for Ireland. I very torn on whether he should be given a cap. The guy has lived in Ireland for four years and for all I know he could have an Irish family.

Irishness is something a little bit intangible unless you simply say people who were born in Ireland, but then I would say what about my friend who's mother gave birth to him in Lebanon while she was working for the Red Cross, he has lived in Ireland since he was 6 months old!

Also not important to the thread but New Zealand do not steal players from the pacific islands like many jealous people claim. I know of one real case of this happening.

pajunior

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Good question!
Ideally I'd like to see local lads representing our national team.
However, due to the size of our country and the level of competition we face in order to qualify for tournaments (unlike rugby) we need to use every rule/trick in the book to our advantage.
The truth is, if we never reached out to our diaspora and their children we would not have qualified for any tournaments. We may need to do this more in the future.

So we have learnt to love
Mick McCarthy
Jason McAteer
John Aldridge
Mark Lawrenson
Kevin Kilbane - turned down England U-18 because he said he was Irish.
Ronan O'Gara

Ronan O'Gara is a prime example of my post above, born in San Diego but as Irish as anyone here.

eyescreamcone

Am I bold or old if I mention Brian Smith???

Monty Burnz

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Am I bold or old if I mention Brian Smith???

Mention away. We all know there has been a rake of non-Irish people playing for our soccer team. Clearly the rules in both sports have shortcomings. Actually, come to think of it, I think the rules in rugby were changed shortly after the Brian Smith business, not least because that case itself.

eyescreamcone

Brian Smith was a long time ago and I'm not sure what his link to Ireland was.

Anyway are there any plastic paddies in the UK who could qualify for ireland rugby??
How come rugby doesn't produce this type of international??
Or maybe those who have come through have not been of international standard yet??

Monty Burnz

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Brian Smith was a long time ago and I'm not sure what his link to Ireland was.

Anyway are there any plastic paddies in the UK who could qualify for ireland rugby??

Definitely. Tom Court - from Australia - qualifies through a grandparent, but he also moved to Ireland and has played here for some years. I can't think of any other grandparent-qualified people offhand (perhaps Jim Staples way back?). There doesn't seem to be any sort of concerted trawl through the UK for Irish qualified players, but there is an Exiles team set up as a sort of fifth 'province' to provide an avenue to the children of Irish emigrants in Britain to play for Ireland. One of our greatest wingers ever, Simon Geoghegan (who you might remember) played I think for the Exiles and also Connacht (where his family came from). London Irish used to have a very strong connection with Irish rugby too - but not so much any more.

Mal-Adjusted

Slattsy wrote: »

This is how sport works in Ireland..

If you're ****e at soccer you play GAA.
If you're ****e at soccer and GAA, then you play rugby.

Oh ffs :rolleyes: i'll probably get a slating for this but come on. any gouger can walk onto the field and be at least competent at soccer. the rules and structure of play pretty much ensure that. not so in football, Hurling and Rugby (mostly hurling)

DEFTLEFTHAND

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Oh ffs :rolleyes: i'll probably get a slating for this but come on. any gouger can walk onto the field and be at least competent at soccer. the rules and structure of play pretty much ensure that. not so in football, Hurling and Rugby (mostly hurling)

Good point actually, any clown could make his way on to a football pitch and play, its a pretty straight forward game which any mentally competent chapin could at least attempt. If said chapin made his way out on to a hurling or rugby pitch, we'd burst him and burst him hard and the chap would not come back. You learn your craft before attempting to play with us.

pajunior

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Oh ffs :rolleyes: i'll probably get a slating for this but come on. any gouger can walk onto the field and be at least competent at soccer. the rules and structure of play pretty much ensure that. not so in football, Hurling and Rugby (mostly hurling)

That's a ridiculous statement, of course anyone can just walk onto a pitch and play any sport, he will not be in any way competent though.

Slattsy

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Slattsy wrote: »

This is how sport works in Ireland..

If you're ****e at soccer you play GAA.
If you're ****e at soccer and GAA, then you play rugby.

Oh ffs :rolleyes: i'll probably get a slating for this but come on. any gouger can walk onto the field and be at least competent at soccer. the rules and structure of play pretty much ensure that. not so in football, Hurling and Rugby (mostly hurling)

I won't slate ya.
I'll come back with this though. Is rugby the only sport in the world where you can be 25 stone, be as slow as a tortoise and when handed the ball all you have to do is simply run into the closest opponent, and yet be considered an athlete??

Sumo wrestlers don't count !!

Monty Burnz

Slattsy wrote: »

I won't slate ya.
I'll come back with this though. Is rugby the only sport in the world where you can be 25 stone, be as slow as a tortoise and when handed the ball all you have to do is simply run into the closest opponent, and yet be considered an athlete??

Nope. Soccer too. The difference is that fat, unfit guys wouldn't get into championship teams in rugby.

Slattsy

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Slattsy wrote: »

I won't slate ya.
I'll come back with this though. Is rugby the only sport in the world where you can be 25 stone, be as slow as a tortoise and when handed the ball all you have to do is simply run into the closest opponent, and yet be considered an athlete??

Nope. Soccer too. The difference is that fat, unfit guys wouldn't get into championship teams in rugby.

Goalkeepers don't count !

Monty Burnz

Slattsy wrote: »

Goalkeepers don't count !

The exceptions are piling up...

Have a look at this video of about 3 minutes action from one game - it captures a lot of what I love about rugby:

1. Physical courage
2. Honest effort
3. Brilliant skills, of a different type than seen in other games

As I keep saying, each to their own. I used to love soccer, but since the game went 'big money', I don't like many of the changes that happened. God be with the days when Celtic won the European Cup with a team largely made up of guys born within five miles of their stadium.

eyescreamcone

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Slattsy wrote: »

Goalkeepers don't count !

The exceptions are piling up...

Have a look at this video of about 3 minutes action from one game - it captures a lot of what I love about rugby:

1. Physical courage
2. Honest effort
3. Brilliant skills, of a different type than seen in other games

As I keep saying, each to their own. I used to love soccer, but since the game went 'big money', I don't like many of the changes that happened. God be with the days when Celtic won the European Cup with a team largely made up of guys born within five miles of their stadium.

There was no days when teams like Celtic won the European Cup - it happened once ever - thus an anomaly!
All the teams of this era had foreigners especially Madrid who had Puskas and Di Stefano.
And how is winning a cup with foreigners a bad thing. Munster and Leinster have both used foreign players and coaches with great success.

As for courage, effort and skill - these are traits found in most sports (even F1).
But in particular I'm thinking of the like of Paul McGrath v Italy 2004.
Attacking players like Messi are a joy to watch.

Monty Burnz

eyescreamcone wrote: »

There was no days when teams like Celtic won the European Cup - it happened once ever - thus an anomaly!
All the teams of this era had foreigners especially Madrid who had Puskas and Di Stefano.
And how is winning a cup with foreigners a bad thing. Munster and Leinster have both used foreign players and coaches with great success.

There was a time - you may find it hard to believe - when more than a dozen clubs in total could win a European Cup. Celtic winning it wasn't an anomaly - teams from Serbia, Romania, also won the European cup. Even small-town teams like Notts Forest won it. W

hen do you think the next winner will come from somewhere other than England, Germany, Italy or Spain? When will former European powerhouse Ajax win it again?

And even on a national league level - when will a team other than the big five in England win the league without a billionaire investor coming along? Remember when small-town teams like Nottingham Forest, Derby County or Aston Villa were champions? When was the last time a team outside the big five even mounted a challenge?

And there are a few problems with the biggest clubs buying all the best players - firstly, smaller teams can never develop a great team the way that used to be possible as all their best players will be picked off by the bigger teams. Secondly there's no real link between the players and the fans - look at Wayne Rooney's antics at Man U for example. Someone waves a bigger cheque and off they go - totally mercenary. And the fans that loved you yesterday hate you today. I don't know; most of the big teams are companies these days, and the fans are the customers. I can't get too excited over what boils down to a battle between Persil Automatic and Bold 3-in-1.

Of course, the upside is that you see a highly-concentrated amount of talent at the top level, and the standards are higher than ever. It is astonishing what the likes of Messi and Ronaldinho are able to do on a pitch.

eyescreamcone wrote: »

As for courage, effort and skill - these are traits found in most sports (even F1).
But in particular I'm thinking of the like of Paul McGrath v Italy 2004.
Attacking players like Messi are a joy to watch.

Yes, I'm not so stupid as to pretend they don't exist in most sports - I just included that clip to show examples of it in 3 minutes of one particular game.

Paparazzo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Nope. Soccer too. The difference is that fat, unfit guys wouldn't get into championship teams in rugby.

A guy who started playing in 1892? Clutching at straws a bit there!

Anyway, Tony Buckley is proof that size doesn't equal quality in rugby.