The Ubiquity of Rugby

Tox56

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

You're making things up now

Do we expect to beat NZ consistently? No, we expect to be competitive and certainly don't expect to lose by 60 points and score 0.

Do we think we're as good as the SH big three? No, we can give them a game

I think you are also overestimating France, they've some great players but are extremely inconsistent like us, they are currently 6th in the world rankings

Do we expect to have 15 world class players on the pitch? No, but that doesn't mean we are unable to produce quality players.

If you're a football fan it's impossible to imagine Ireland being at the top of any worldwide sport, but Ireland do have some of the best players in Europe and a few are the best in the world. It's impossible to quantify but they do.

The management is incompetent and not getting the best out of these players whatever way you slice it, we have gone close and/or beaten all 3 SH superpowers with one-off performances.

Those performances show what we're capable of, whether you chose to accept it or not, we have some very very good players

Making things up? Afraid not, have had lot people who go to see Munster, Leinster and Ireland tell me this. More then I care to think of.

Many people have stated we are better then Australia and South Africa on boards in past(when we have beaten them)

France have been above us in table for quiet some time. We have only beaten them once since 2006. In that time they have given us some right hammerings.

Blaming management for a 60 point drubbing is getting beyond a joke. you could have got the best backs and forwards coaches in there this morning and we still got beat by 40+ points. Nobody was blaming them in 2009 were they?

We can get close in 1 in 5 games against decent sides, but on consistent level we dont have the world class players to produce it time after time.

When NZ got fright last week and woke up this morning they really showed our players where they stand.

However I hope in years to come I be thinking differently and talking about Ireland beating South Africa and New Zealand and being able to do it in 2 of 3 or 4 games. Not once in blue moon.

If you can find more than one person on the rugby forum who thinks we should beating New Zealand I would be amazed

Blaming the result on the management is one thing, blaming the performance on them is another.

Horrendous tactics and gameplan were the major problem, read what people say on the rugby forum for a more detailed explanation. This was one of many factors contributing to the drubbing, but was clearly the most important one.

You see, lazy throwaway statements like "nobody was blaming them on 2009" aren't particularly constructive and highlight your knowledge on the subject.

The ELV's have changed the style of rugby that can be effective, a style of kicking and territory with a strong pack was easier to implement pre-2008/09 and this was the time of Kidneys success with both Munster and Ireland.

The game has moved on, as have Leinster. Leinster are now the best team in Europe with a coach who fits the new succesful brand of rugby.

The_Kew_Tour

Tox56 wrote: »

If you can find more than one person on the rugby forum who thinks we should beating New Zealand I would be amazed

Blaming the result on the management is one thing, blaming the performance on them is another.

Horrendous tactics and gameplan were the major problem, read what people say on the rugby forum for a more detailed explanation. This was one of many factors contributing to the drubbing, but was clearly the most important one.

You see, lazy throwaway statements like "nobody was blaming them on 2009" aren't particularly constructive and highlight your knowledge on the subject.

The ELV's have changed the style of rugby that can be effective, a style of kicking and territory with a strong pack was easier to implement pre-2008/09 and this was the time of Kidneys success with both Munster and Ireland.

The game has moved on, as have Leinster. Leinster are now the best team in Europe with a coach who fits the new succesful brand of rugby.

I play have played AIL rugby(all be it few games) up to last year. So spare me.

Of course the game has changed, but blaming management is the easy solution.

We are not as good as some would like to think we are, including yourself.

Leinster might be best provincial team in Europe,but that means **** all when it comes to International rugby. Just look at England in football.

People need to wake up. I thought today would make stand up, but seems not.

keep thinking this way and you in for more disappointment. Trust me.

recylingbin

Bet like asses by one of the 6 countries that play the game.
I'm glad they don't play the national anthem before the games.

Tox56

The stat last year was Leinster had 2 NIQ players in their starting team for the HEC Final, one of whom is now qualified for Ireland.

I wonder how many English players started
for Man City and Chelsea.

I will expect improvement as soon as a decent coach is appointed, as it stands I find it hard to raise expectations as high as they should be

The_Kew_Tour

The HC while it is a good standard it draws and cracks and leaves people thinking that somehow rugby in this country is better then it is.

Went to college in Wales.When Munster played Ospreys we went to local pub there to expect the locals to be shouting for their team. They did not give a ****. To them joining Neath and Swansea was icing on cake for the way they cared about club rugby.

In France winning their national title is far far more important then winning HC and England its not much better.

bee_keeper

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The HC while it is a good standard it draws and cracks and leaves people thinking that somehow rugby in this country is better then it is.

Went to college in Wales.When Munster played Ospreys we went to local pub there to expect the locals to be shouting for their team. They did not give a ****. To them joining Neath and Swansea was icing on cake for the way they cared about club rugby.

In France winning their national title is far far more important then winning HC and England its not much better.

dont all the top english clubs play in the guinness premiership , you know the one that craig doyle presents highlights of on itv4

DEFTLEFTHAND

bee_keeper wrote: »

dont all the top english clubs play in the guinness premiership , you know the one that craig doyle presents highlights of on itv4

Yeah thats right, only its called the Aviva Premiership these days. :pac:

Tox56

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The HC while it is a good standard it draws and cracks and leaves people thinking that somehow rugby in this country is better then it is.

Went to college in Wales.When Munster played Ospreys we went to local pub there to expect the locals to be shouting for their team. They did not give a ****. To them joining Neath and Swansea was icing on cake for the way they cared about club rugby.

In France winning their national title is far far more important then winning HC and England its not much better.

There's two extremes:

1) This one, that it's not that important and the other countries don't care about it

and 2) We should be the best team in Europe because our provinces are

The reality is somewhere in the middle. Watching the top English and French teams get eliminated you can clearly see how much it means to them. They play with such intensity, you get teams like Castres who couldn't give a toss but they are the exception not the rule.

HEC is a good indicator but it is not the same as an international and that's clear to everybody

CatFromHue

So after 54 pages has anyone figured out what ubiquity means?

Fishooks12

CatFromHue wrote: »

So after 54 pages has anyone figured out what ubiquity means?

I can post here at least !

laugh

We left some of our best players at home, Bowe, O' Connell, Ferris. We lost two more after last weeks match, the players were absolutely out on there feet after a very long season. Last week it took a late drop goal for the best team in the world to beat us and this is all in summer tour matches while significant for ranking points isn't tournament play. Considering the numbers we have playing soccer in Ireland compare that to the embarrassment that was the 3 Irish soccer teams matches in Euro 2012.

parc

I'll just leave this here. I still like rugby btw. Also why do you have to like just one? If you fall in solely one camp and are militant about it then congratulations, you're a massive tool

eyescreamcone

laugh wrote: »

We left some of our best players at home, Bowe, O' Connell, Ferris. We lost two more after last weeks match, the players were absolutely out on there feet after a very long season. Last week it took a late drop goal for the best team in the world to beat us and this is all in summer tour matches while significant for ranking points isn't tournament play. Considering the numbers we have playing soccer in Ireland compare that to the embarrassment that was the 3 Irish soccer teams matches in Euro 2012.

To lose 60-0 in rugby is like being beaten 9 nil in football.
I don't think the football team ever embarrassed us to that degree.

60-0
NZ should stop giving caps for the Irish games!!!

Mod note:User banned for ignoring threadban.

The_Kew_Tour

eyescreamcone wrote: »

To lose 60-0 in rugby is like being beaten 9 nil in football.
I don't think the football team ever embarrassed us to that degree.

60-0
NZ should stop giving caps for the Irish games!!!

Might not agree with 9 nil, but yes worse then anything Irish football team have done including Cyprus in 06.

Fishooks12

eyescreamcone wrote: »

To lose 60-0 in rugby is like being beaten 9 nil in football.
I don't think the football team ever embarrassed us to that degree.

60-0
NZ should stop giving caps for the Irish games!!!

It always amazes me how people who know nothing about a sport pretend to become experts in the wake of an admittedly humiliating defeat

Same type of people seem to revel in the notion of a team being humiliated

mikemac1

I was there when Munster beat the All Blacks......

I suppose your granddad was one of the 100,000 in the GPO too

Some fans won't shut up about one game in 1978
Well Matt Cooper and the guests on his show anyway, constantly talking about this game

I doubt NZ were even bothered about it

bee_keeper

mikemac1 wrote: »

I was there when Munster beat the All Blacks......

I suppose your granddad was one of the 100,000 in the GPO too

Some fans won't shut up about one game in 1978
Well Matt Cooper and the guests on his show anyway, constantly talking about this game

I doubt NZ were even bothered about it

yeah , when playing provincial sides on tours , international teams tend to put out a B team

WallyGUFC

There's a simple reason why Irish teams perform so well in the HC but are crap playing together: foreign imports. Isa Nacewa is definitely one of the best players I've seen. Leinster could bring in Elsom, Thorn, Strauss. In the key positions, foreign players are being brought in in every province. Dan Parks for Connacht. Afoa, Pienaar, Terblanche for Ulster. Mafi and co. for Munster. Even still, 60-0 is a f**king disgrace.

RoundBox11

Given the stupidity of so many soccer fans taking shots at Irish rugby because of one heavy loss when they are missing 5/6 of their best players, i am going to put the situation into perspective.....

Of the players missing, Ferris is the best blindside flanker in the world atm, O'Connell has been a top 5 lock for the past 5 years at least (as well as being our pack leader, chief lineout caller and vice captain), Heaslip is and has been one of our best players for years now, Bowe and Fitzgerald are two of our best overall wings and D'Arcy has been great all year for Leinster.

Thatd be like the irsh soccer team paying without Richard Dunne, Shay Given, Robbie Keane, McGeady and Kevin Doyle (even though none of those players are anywhere near the relative standard of the five/six rugby players who are missing).
So given how ****e the irish football team is even with those players, imagine how desperately atrocious they would be against Spain without them.

To put this loss into further context when compared to the irish soccer team lets look at this years results for Ireland in the football

Ireland 0 - 2 Italy

Ireland 0 - 4 Spain

Ireland 1 - 3 Croatia

Ireland 0 - 0 Hungary

Ireland 1 - 0 Bosnia H'govina

Ireland 1 - 1 Czech Republic

1 win, 2 draws, 3 hammerings.

RoundBox11

WallyGUFC wrote: »

There's a simple reason why Irish teams perform so well in the HC but are crap playing together: foreign imports. Isa Nacewa is definitely one of the best players I've seen. Leinster could bring in Elsom, Thorn, Strauss. In the key positions, foreign players are being brought in in every province. Dan Parks for Connacht. Afoa, Pienaar, Terblanche for Ulster. Mafi and co. for Munster. Even still, 60-0 is a f**king disgrace.

Isa Nacewa is the only non-irish qualified player who regularly starts for Leinster (Strauss will be playing for Ireland next year). So i think your over-exaggerating a bit

jack presley

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Given the stupidity of so many soccer fans taking shots at Irish rugby because of one heavy loss when they are missing 5/6 of their best players, i am going to put the situation into perspective.....

.

Yeah, I agree. With those 5 or 6 missing players we would have beaten NZ, just like we regularly do when we have a full squad of players. Oh wait...

RoundBox11

jack presley wrote: »

Yeah, I agree. With those 5 or 6 missing players we would have beaten NZ, just like we regularly do when we have a full squad of players. Oh wait...

Well we only play them once every few years and it's always at the end of the season so we never have a full strength team. In fact prior to this tour, the last time we played them we had Tom Court starting at tighthead (Buckley was our start TH at the time), and we were missing O'Connell (Mick OD was starting alongside DOC instead). Pretty sure we were missing Kearney then too amongst others so eh.... your wrong!

jack presley

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Well we only play them once every few years and it's always at the end of the season so we never have a full strength team. In fact prior to this tour, the last time we played them we had Tom Court starting at tighthead (Buckley was our start TH at the time), and we were missing O'Connell (Mick OD was starting alongside DOC instead). Pretty sure we were missing Kearney then too amongst others so eh.... your wrong!

Don't they come over here for November Internationals as well? So I doubt all the games were at the end of our season.

And are you sure that in every game we've played them over the past 100 years, we've never had a full strength team? Where are you getting that from? I also doubt they've had full strength teams in every game against us either.

EDIt - just checked history of results and in the past 15 years we've played them 5 times in November in Dublin at the start of our season (so probably at the end of theirs I'd imagine?) and we've lost by 20, 19, 38, 11 (close one there!) and 48 points.

RoundBox11

jack presley wrote: »

Don't they come over here for November Internationals as well? So I doubt all the games were at the end of our season.

And are you sure that in every game we've played them over the past 100 years, we've never had a full strength team? Where are you getting that from? I also doubt they've had full strength teams in every game against us either.

They come over every few years yeah, most recently in 2010. Regardless of the time of the season, i don't ever remember seeing us put out a full strength squad against them. Obviously we have at points but We've always been ranked so far behind them it wouldnt have made a difference until recently.

Obviously they don't always have a full squad either but they have far more talent to choose from so it has less of an impact. You'll rarely see them having to play somebody out of position.

Whats your point anyway??? What i said originally was a perfectly valid point about the standard or lack there of of irish football these days. I was stating a fact that we were missing these players, at no point did i say that we definitely would have beaten them if we had a full squad. But we would have stood a much better chance, and given how close last weeks game was, i see no reason why it would have been beyond our reach to beat them yesterday. The same however can't be said about Irelands football match Vs Spain.

hatrickpatrick

parc wrote: »

Also why do you have to like just one?

Because if everyone went around liking both, we'd have nothing to bicker about on AH.

parc wrote:

If you fall in solely one camp and are militant about it then congratulations, you're a massive tool

I would controversially suggest that the vast majority of AH's posters (myself included) fall into the latter category to some degree

The_Kew_Tour

RoundBox11 wrote: »

They come over every few years yeah, most recently in 2010. Regardless of the time of the season, i don't ever remember seeing us put out a full strength squad against them. Obviously we have at points but We've always been ranked so far behind them it wouldnt have made a difference until recently.

Obviously they don't always have a full squad either but they have far more talent to choose from so it has less of an impact. You'll rarely see them having to play somebody out of position.

Whats your point anyway??? What i said originally was a perfectly valid point about the standard or lack there of of irish football these days. I was stating a fact that we were missing these players, at no point did i say that we definitely would have beaten them if we had a full squad. But we would have stood a much better chance, and given how close last weeks game was, i see no reason why it would have been beyond our reach to beat them yesterday. The same however can't be said about Irelands football match Vs Spain.

Man that was the biggest load of waffle I have read on boards in some time.

It's very simple.. Rugby comes down to big moments while football comes down to big chances. If you're in the pub, big moments are way more enjoyable because everyone is on the edge of their seat waiting for it to happen.

jack presley

RoundBox11 wrote: »

They come over every few years yeah, most recently in 2010. Regardless of the time of the season, i don't ever remember seeing us put out a full strength squad against them. Obviously we have at points but We've always been ranked so far behind them it wouldnt have made a difference until recently.

Obviously they don't always have a full squad either but they have far more talent to choose from so it has less of an impact. You'll rarely see them having to play somebody out of position.

Whats your point anyway??? What i said originally was a perfectly valid point about the standard or lack there of of irish football these days. I was stating a fact that we were missing these players, at no point did i say that we definitely would have beaten them if we had a full squad. But we would have stood a much better chance, and given how close last weeks game was, i see no reason why it would have been beyond our reach to beat them yesterday. The same however can't be said about Irelands football match Vs Spain.

The only point I was trying to make is that we should stop making excuses when we are beaten (at any sport). NZ are better than us at rugby and will usually beat us convincingly. That's why I hate it when people come on and say we were missing x, y, and z etc. without commenting on who they might have been missing.

As for my last email, you responded with a few 'facts' that were either completely wrong or without any evidence and it finished with the statement 'You're wrong!' so I couldn't let that go.

biko

Ok please continue in the ruggers forum. Thank you.