sentence for having a toll knife in his car...

pepe00

hi, can you please explain me of this can be true as i just cant belive it !

a guy I know had just been given a sentence, 2 years suspended, for having a knife in his car. he is a builder, and this knife was kind of knife you cut a wall paper...

it is just crazy to be sentence for a toll in yr car...

ResearchWill

Firearms
9.—(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3), where a person has with him in any public place any knife or any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed, he shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2), it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had the article with him for use at work or for a recreational purpose.

This offence in the DC carries max 12 months, so if he got 2 years suspended it would have to be CC, I really don't think any person who is employed in building trade could be convicted, of this offence in CC. Have you any newspaper reporting of this.

johnnyskeleton

Simple possession other than for a flick knife or other "weapon" knife is summary only so we are not being told everything.

ResearchWill

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Simple possession other than for a flick knife or other "weapon" knife is summary only so we are not being told everything.

Yup I think you are correct, we don't have the whole story, I can't see ss 4 or 5 in what the OP set out.

MagicSean

Having a trade job isn't enough to justify a knife. Maybe if you were on your way to work it might. But if you're cruising town on a saturday night with a Stanley blade and gaffer tape to hand you'd want to be fairly savy to talk your way out of that one.

krd

MagicSean wrote: »

Having a trade job isn't enough to justify a knife. Maybe if you were on your way to work it might. But if you're cruising town on a saturday night with a Stanley blade and gaffer tape to hand you'd want to be fairly savy to talk your way out of that one.

A Stanley knife is virtually worthless as a weapon. The blade will break before you can do any damage. I used to have a small Stanley on a keyring.

And if you have gaffer tape, the only thing that can really cut it is a Stanley.

I know people do carry trades tools as weapons - as an excuse - but a Stanley is useless as a weapon. A sharpened screw driver, maybe.

source

krd wrote: »

A Stanley knife is virtually worthless as a weapon. The blade will break before you can do any damage. I used to have a small Stanley on a keyring.

And if you have gaffer tape, the only thing that can really cut it is a Stanley.

I know people do carry trades tools as weapons - as an excuse - but a Stanley is useless as a weapon. A sharpened screw driver, maybe.

Stanley blades can produce some horrific injuries, especially when used to slash at the face or neck area. It might be your belief that they are not dangerous, but the fact of the matter is they have been used to great effect by people in assaults down through the years.

MagicSean

krd wrote: »

MagicSean wrote: »

Having a trade job isn't enough to justify a knife. Maybe if you were on your way to work it might. But if you're cruising town on a saturday night with a Stanley blade and gaffer tape to hand you'd want to be fairly savy to talk your way out of that one.

A Stanley knife is virtually worthless as a weapon. The blade will break before you can do any damage. I used to have a small Stanley on a keyring.

And if you have gaffer tape, the only thing that can really cut it is a Stanley.

I know people do carry trades tools as weapons - as an excuse - but a Stanley is useless as a weapon. A sharpened screw driver, maybe.

I have a scar on my head that disagrees with you.

pepe00

I think it is just against "normal" people.

If someone need a weapon or somethink to comit a crime, he will have it anyway.

It goes too far. On football stadium, in Germany, you cant have a bottle with coca cola, couse this can be thrown and used as a weapon...

Right 2B a liar

pepe00 wrote: »

hi, can you please explain me of this can be true as i just cant belive it !

a guy I know had just been given a sentence, 2 years suspended, for having a knife in his car. he is a builder, and this knife was kind of knife you cut a wall paper...

it is just crazy to be sentence for a toll in yr car...

This is what I love about law as case-law and legislation really doesn't matter when it comes to stuff like this! I was in the District Court once upon a time and a youth with a record for street fighting was searched on a Sunday night by two members of GS for suspicious behaviour. They found in his possession a stanley knife. His excuse in court was that he works with his uncle on Wednesday in the markets and uses it for opening boxes, needless to say he got off.

plasteritup

in my opinion if gardai bring a builder all the way to court for having a wallpaper knife or stanley knife whatever in his car all the way to court he is most likely involved in other stuff to and also well known to gardai.
its an oppurtunity to nail him.

why was i presume his car stopped and searched,i am driving fifteen years and have never had my car searched by guards.

pepe00

Right 2B a liar wrote: »

This is what I love about law as case-law and legislation really doesn't matter when it comes to stuff like this! I was in the District Court once upon a time and a youth with a record for street fighting was searched on a Sunday night by two members of GS for suspicious behaviour. They found in his possession a stanley knife. His excuse in court was that he works with his uncle on Wednesday in the markets and uses it for opening boxes, needless to say he got off.

having a stanley knife on you while walking the street by night, is different than having one in your car...

pepe00

plasteritup wrote: »

i
why was i presume his car stopped and searched,i am driving fifteen years and have never had my car searched by guards.

yes, he was driving without insurance. that was the reason to stop him.

plasteritup

pepe00 wrote: »

yes, he was driving without insurance. that was the reason to stop him.

car or van?

ResearchWill

pepe00 wrote: »

yes, he was driving without insurance. that was the reason to stop him.

So he also had a no insurance charge, what did he get for that.

plasteritup

pepe00 wrote: »

yes, he was driving without insurance. that was the reason to stop him.

i never said my car was never stopped,but searched????

ScouseMouse

I work in a shop and use case cutters/stanley knives daily. One day I was on the way home and called into a shop to buy something I had forgot.

There was one of those coin machines which was jammed and the assistant was trying to free it. I had the case cutter in my pocket and gave it to him and it fixed it.

Where would that leave me? A blue shirt and tie, massive bunch of shop keys in one pocket and a knife in the other? I cannot see me getting done as the OP says this occured.

There must be something else to it. Perhaps the builder gave the guard some lip, etc etc....

Although, I suppose the wrong guard could still do me ?

mikemac1

Every farmer in the country is facing conviction if you could be charged for carrying around knives in their pockets and jeeps

Common sense applies, it's clear what a working person does and they can explain it

Completely different story to explain a knife away at 2am outside Supermacs though

pepe00 wrote: »

a guy I know had just been given a sentence, 2 years suspended, for having a knife in his car.

Has to to be more to this
And more to the driving to no insurance

Ash.J.Williams

I remember going to a gig in Dublin and I met a builder mate for a few pints before we went in...anyway getting frisked at the door, they start going through my mates combats and pull out a stanley knife and blades....he had this morto look and they continued...scredriver...."it's not looking good here is it" said the bouncer.....the fact he was covered in dust and genuinely astonished got him off the hook and his stuff back after the show!!

krd

source wrote: »

Stanley blades can produce some horrific injuries, especially when used to slash at the face or neck area. It might be your belief that they are not dangerous, but the fact of the matter is they have been used to great effect by people in assaults down through the years.

I have witnessed an assault with a stanley. Very nasty. The guy went for the person I was standing besides face (for no reason), his friend on a reflex put up his hand to block whatever it was - and he got the stanley across his hand - slashed his hand open.

I also know of people who were attack with Stanleys - and the blade luckily broke...After which they proceeded to give their assailant an ass kicking.

The thing about Stanleys is they're incredibly useful - if you're in any kind of work where you need to cut stuff - my father always had one in his pocket - and he would have several in his car.

Stabbings are horrific. Any there have been quite a few deaths because of little arseholes carrying around scissors, or sharpened screw drivers. There was even a murder a few years back in the Abrekebabra in Portmarnock - where the arsehole killed a complete stranger for no reason, with an Abrekebabra plastic fork.

A friend was attacked by guy armed with a scissors. He wasn't injured, but when his attacker was in court for the assault, he claimed he had the scissors on him because he had been putting up wall paper for his ma. This wasn't true - he'd set out with the intention of maiming or killing my friend.

longhalloween

source wrote: »

Stanley blades can produce some horrific injuries, especially when used to slash at the face or neck area. It might be your belief that they are not dangerous, but the fact of the matter is they have been used to great effect by people in assaults down through the years.

The lads who took control of the 9/11 planes only had boxcutters. At the time they were thought to be harmless tools and were allowed onto airplanes.

EDIT: I also used to work in a butchers and some of the lads had customs knives they brought home at the weekends. Used to put the knives into the sheath and wrap the whole thing with cellophane. Suppose it'd be hard to explain a 12" dagger in your car

source

krd wrote: »

A Stanley knife is virtually worthless as a weapon.

krd wrote: »

I have witnessed an assault with a stanley. Very nasty. The guy went for the person I was standing besides face (for no reason), his friend on a reflex put up his hand to block whatever it was - and he got the stanley across his hand - slashed his hand open.

So it's worthless as a weapon or very nasty.....which is it?

krd

source wrote: »

So it's worthless as a weapon or very nasty.....which is it?

Say if I was going to do you. I wouldn't use a Stanley. A sharpened screwdriver maybe. You want something that you'll have a good grip on and you can make multiple stab wounds with. Something you can penetrate the liver with several times.

There are two drawbacks with the Stanley. One, the wounds do not penetrate too deeply. And, two, it doesn't take too much lateral pressure to make the blade clip off - in that instance you are left without a weapon - just with a simple belly slash, you will lose that blade. You could find yourself in serious trouble.

So, the Stanley may land a pretty aesthetically unpleasing wound (though it can be an interesting conversation piece when chatting to chicks - as Magic Sean may have found - he eats out that, I bet). If you absolutely, positively, must kill someone, I would not recommend the Stanley as a weapon.

source

krd wrote: »

source wrote: »

So it's worthless as a weapon or very nasty.....which is it?

Say if I was going to do you. I wouldn't use a Stanley. A sharpened screwdriver maybe. You want something that you'll have a good grip on and you can make multiple stab wounds with. Something you can penetrate the liver with several times.

There are two drawbacks with the Stanley. One, the wounds do not penetrate too deeply. And, two, it doesn't take too much lateral pressure to make the blade clip off - in that instance you are left without a weapon - just with a simple belly slash, you will lose that blade. You could find yourself in serious trouble.

So, the Stanley may land a pretty aesthetically unpleasing wound (though it can be an interesting conversation piece when chatting to chicks - as Magic Sean may have found - he eats out that, I bet). If you absolutely, positively, must kill someone, I would not recommend the Stanley as a weapon.

Oh that's right, the only way to kill someone is to pierce their liver, I completely forgot about that!!!!!

It's not like having your throat slashed or your corotid artery cut (both possible with a stanley)will kill you.....oh wait.

Not to mention that it could seriously affect a persons use of their hands if the tendons are cut badly, I'm fairly certain it would also cause horrific injuries if used on any soft tissue area, like the groin, for instance, inside of thigh, inside of arms.

For it to be a weapon it doesn't have to be capable of killing a person, serious injury, or any injury for that matter will make it a weapon.

Give it up man, any blade carried for the wrong reason, under Irish law is an offensive weapon. No matter what you use it for the rest of the time.

There's more to the OP than he just had it in the car if the sentence was as heavy as it was.

Grolschevik

At this stage, I have to ask: what the hell is a "toll knife"?

source

Grolschevik wrote: »

At this stage, I have to ask: what the hell is a "toll knife"?

I reckon he meant tool knife, typo kind of thing.

Grolschevik

krd wrote: »

Say if I was going to do you. I wouldn't use a Stanley.

If I was going to do you, I'd probably use a Taser and some KY.:D

Del2005

longhalloween wrote: »

The lads who took control of the 9/11 planes only had boxcutters.

Different game then. The idea was to give into hijackers, do what they said and get them onto the ground ASAP to try and deal with them. You could take a plane with the threat of violence pre 9/11, try taking a plane now with a box cutter now and you won't get very far.

longhalloween wrote: »

At the time they were thought to be harmless tools and were allowed onto airplanes.

Anything can be made into a lethal weapon with enough time. The security checks at airports are just to keep the passengers happy and fool them into thinking they are safer flying while the risk is still the same as before.

Ash.J.Williams

At the prodigy gig in the point depot back in the day there was a multi Stanley slash attack, ten or so people slashed by one guy

deadwood

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

At the prodigy gig in the point depot back in the day there was a multi Stanley slash attack, ten or so people slashed by one guy

Reminds me of the notorious Aga attack at the Andre Boccelli gig at Farmleigh in '07.

Larna

This is one that interests me after a situation I had a couple of months ago.

My commercial van was broken into, in a village in Mayo. The van was jumped on (roof and bonnet squashed/dented), footprints all over the windscreen and bonnet, aerial snapped in half on the roof, and the door area below the window was pried open to allow the criminal to access it. It was an old van and not worth much, but an important vehicle to me none the less.

Inside the van a number of items were removed; a torch, GPS, iPhone charging cable, jump leads. There was very little of worth in the van as it is only used for farming activities. I keep horses and some other animals, and the back of the van was kitted out with fencing posts and rolls of electric fence wire as I was fencing that same week. Also present in the vehicle were two large bags of grain for horses.

I took the van to the Garda station about 30 metres away from my house after the Gardai never bothered to come down and investigate it even though it had been reported. Two housemate's vans were also broken into on the same night though little exterior damage was done to theirs.

I did a detailed search of the van to see what was missing and noted my key ring Victorinox Swiss Army Knife was also gone. It would be the same as this one, one of the very small ones that hangs on a keyring.

A female garda took a quick look over my van, didn't bother to fingerprint "as it has rained", noted that the shoe prints on the bonnet were a very unusual shoe type, and then we went inside where I made a statement.

I listed the items that were missing, including my Swiss Army Knife. She was writing down what I was telling her. As soon as she heard the word 'knife', she latched onto it, put her pen down and began to question me in detail as to why I had kept a knife in my vehicle, what would I be doing with a knife, did I regularly carry this knife, etc.

I was taken aback by her line of questioning and certainly didn't expect this or I never would have dared to mention the missing knife which was of little worth anyway.

I told her [as already pointed out to her while she viewed my vehicle] that I keep horses, I farm, I regularly move electric fence wire for strip grazing and it is a handy little tool to have around to snip the fence tape quickly rather than carrying a large knife or snips in my pocket. I also use it to open the sealed bags of grain for feeding the horses, bags she had seen while viewing my vehicle.

She seemed to doubt me completely and asked more questions including why it had to be a knife, and why I couldn't use some other tool. I asked her what she suggested I use for the above mentioned tasks but she was unable to suggest anything. I reminded her that this was not just a knife, but an item that contains many different tools including a toothpick, a nail file, scissors, etc, which in total when closed would be about 3 inches long.

I am a young female and have never had so much as a penalty point, never mind a tendency for stabbing or fighting people late at night outside nightclubs.

I realised that she had no idea what a Swiss Army Knife was, and must be imaginging some kind of dagger, so I googled an image of one on my iPhone and showed her, but she still seemed to view it as a huge issue, one she was far more interested in than my damaged vehicle.

At that point I finished up my statement and left, I repaired the van myself and did not bother to follow up on the break-in with Gardai as I was very concerned it would only bring trouble on myself for being in possession of a knife in my vehicle.

My two housemates who also had their commercial vans broken into didn't bother to report them after my experience, even though they had a number of masonry tools stolen.

As it turned out, I found my "knife" dumped in the grass beside my house a few days later.

Previous to this, living in a rural region where we rarely encounter Gardai, I had no idea that it was an issue to keep a knife in your vehicle, particulalry the nature of the 'knife' that I had. I would certainly be very careful in future if reporting anything of this nature to the Gardai.

Pottler

with the farming community around here, a knife would be the least of it, many carry rifles and shotguns in their vehicles. I used to always carry my rifle in my vehicle, passed through many a checkpoint, no bother - rifle in plain view. I carry a knife at all times for work - I'm a builder, have never had a single issue with GS, I do not for one second believe that the person referred to in the OP got a 2yr ss for simply having a work tool about their person.:)

PyeContinental

Larna wrote: »

This is one that interests me after a situation I had a couple of months ago...
...
A female garda took a quick look over my van, didn't bother to fingerprint "as it has rained", noted that the shoe prints on the bonnet were a very unusual shoe type, and then we went inside where I made a statement.

I listed the items that were missing, including my Swiss Army Knife. She was writing down what I was telling her. As soon as she heard the word 'knife', she latched onto it, put her pen down and began to question me in detail as to why I had kept a knife in my vehicle, what would I be doing with a knife, did I regularly carry this knife, etc.
...
She seemed to doubt me completely and asked more questions including why it had to be a knife, and why I couldn't use some other tool. I asked her what she suggested I use for the above mentioned tasks but she was unable to suggest anything. I reminded her that this was not just a knife, but an item that contains many different tools including a toothpick, a nail file, scissors, etc, which in total when closed would be about 3 inches long.
... I would certainly be very careful in future if reporting anything of this nature to the Gardai.

Very well written post (I didn't quote all of it to prevent a wall of duplicate text). You have described very well your experience here. Sounds like a case of someone so wet behind the ears with no real world experience at all, who has received some training in the area of weapons and completely misinterpreted it or else taken everything completely at face value and does not have the combination of intelligence and experience to know how to apply the filter of common sense to what she has been told in training.

I really hope that this guard you encountered is not typical of the members of the force. Sadly, I see this kind of intellectual myopia in all walks of life now, and it seems to be a symptom of the modern world that processes and procedures (no matter how insane) dictate people's behaviours rather than their own common sense.

Incidentally, a colleague of mine told me of an incident that relates to gardai and knives, which occurred in west Dublin a couple of days ago. Some men whose car had broken down attempted to car-jack his girlfriend's car, who had been forced to stop behind them. Meanwhile some other men who were wearing balaclavas, exited a Toyota Hiace, and ran at them brandishing machetes. Thankfully, the men were not able to remove her from the car, and with quick thinking, she was able to manoeuvre the car away and escape unharmed.

Of course, she called the gardai. The response from the (female) garda was that they were aware of the situation and that it was just a dispute between some people which was going on. Interestingly, the response here again seemed to be an inversely-proportional one to the threat-level posed.

krd

Larna wrote: »

I listed the items that were missing, including my Swiss Army Knife. She was writing down what I was telling her. As soon as she heard the word 'knife', she latched onto it, put her pen down and began to question me in detail as to why I had kept a knife in my vehicle, what would I be doing with a knife, did I regularly carry this knife, etc.

That's absolutely bizarre. (And you can't lock a Swiss knife open so it's absolutely useless as a weapon - unless you can get your victim to sit still while you cut their throat for them).

If you live in the countryside, and have anything to do with farming, you always need to have a knife handy. Several knifes handy. What you supposed to do, cut rope with your teeth?

I don't live in the country, and I haven't done farm work in years. But you need a knife and other tools, so often, you don't even think about it.

Something as simple as opening a bail of hay.

It's ridiculous.

mcgarrett

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Simple possession other than for a flick knife or other "weapon" knife is summary only so we are not being told everything.

Section 9(1) is now summary and indictable offence amended by The Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009.

Krieg

I bring tools from and to work, one which includes a leather man. I figure if a garda stop and question me for whatever reason that 90% of them would have the cop on to see the other tools and understand that its used for work purposes. As some people have mentioned previously, the idea of tradesmen going to court for carrying a knife/tools without any previous convictions or warnings is extremely unlikely.

Departed

Larna wrote: »

I took the van to the Garda station about 30 metres away from my house after the Gardai never bothered to come down and investigate it even though it had been reported......

....I listed the items that were missing, including my Swiss Army Knife. She was writing down what I was telling her. As soon as she heard the word 'knife', she latched onto it,

Silly cop. you should have reported her and her mates for not doing their job

Larna

Departed wrote: »

Silly cop. you should have reported her and her mates for not doing their job

I considered it, before she made such an issue out of the knife.

I felt I was better to save myself a lot of hassle and potential trouble, and walk away avoiding any further dealings with the Gardai, while I could.