Does rail transport have a future in Ireland?

Mearings

1 zero out in total square milege.

Ted Mosby

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Sounds like a straight lift from this guy: often cited by tarmac enthusiasts as a transport expert and by anti-sprawl campaigners in the States as someone who does not share their POV

The attached article from American Prospect gives an anti sprawl point of view regarding campaigns in the States against investing in mass transit, echoes of which sound eerily like the guff put out in the public area during the campaigns against DART and Luas while they were being planned and constructed.

http://prospect.org/article/suburban-cowboys

One result of the recession is that there are no more suburban developments, least of all in places that were so far flung from the places where people actually worked that they had to spend at least twelve to fourteen hours a day away from in order to be able to commute to them. The catch-22 is that untrammelled development was exactly what bankrupted this country and that ordinary people had to travel further and further out to pay for houses that they could afford.

As to whether we can willy-nilly jettison the rail network and substitute it with buses, then you can argue about cost savings. That's fine, we save a few bob. However, what happens then is that you get a reduced customer base. Significant numbers switch to the private car. The widespread scrapping of the railway network in Northern Ireland in the 50s and 60s lead to exactly that, and more use of the roads leads to more demand for road improvements etc. The bus becomes the preserve of the young and the elderly. We end up paying more for fuel. So, the petro-chemical industry benefits, and the manufacturers of road materials benefit. Still, that could be a choice that the country chooses to make, but lets not go blindly into scrapping the railways without looking at the wider implications.

As an aside, I am reminded of Tod Andrews' self-congratulatory guffaw at the expense of west Cork campaigners who came to Kingsbridge to see him regarding the closure of their railway. He was delighted when they revealed that they came up by car to see him instead of by train, however the reality was the railway was timetabled such that you could not come up to Dublin and back by one day. A true case of the management of the railway planning to fail. Try not to confuse CIE's long term planning to fail with the benefits of a properly managed railway network. We don't have that.

bk

n900guy wrote: »

You have to remember that at the moment 1.8 million people live within 100km of Cork city. It was suited very well to rail 100 years ago before the rail got shut down. Loads of small stations and it worked well.

The difference is most people didn't have a car 100 years ago and had basically no other choice.

The problem with the 1.8 million is there are very dispersed over a large area with very low population density. If you live more then a few minutes walk from a station, then most people will drive. If you are going to drive to the station anyway, you might as well drive to your destination, as it will be cheaper and faster.

The fantasy that some people have of a massive rail network will never happen again, forget about it and try to be realistic. Focus on what can be achieved like improved commuter and mass rail transport.

It totally is, but Dublin-centric road and rail mishandling has caused a lot of problems. There is no reason for Intercity services at 160km/h to not be the norm between Dublin --> Galway / Cork and Cork --> Limerick --> Galway. Linking up the major cities in a loop works very well, which is how the Randstad in the Holland works. The major cities in Ireland are in a triangle and are around 200-250km each apart. It should take no more than 90mins to go from Cork to Dublin, Dublin to Galway or Galway to Cork with Limerick halfway.

Simply investing the required amount to connect the four cities in a loop would connect 80% of the population of the country.

And where are you "simply" going to get the hundreds of millions if not billions of Euros to build that?

And how could you justify spending such money, when bus coaches provide almost the same level of service for basically zero cost to the tax payer.

It just makes zero logical sense.

Pure fantasy.

cavedave

I do not think new rail lines or increased passanger number are likely for a few reasons.

1. People are not travelling as far anymore. Because of telecommuting and us spending our time sitting around arguing on forums it looks like total distance travelled per person is falling. This could also be because of car travel costs as well. But it does look like we will not travel as far per person in the future.

2. Commuting sucks. We are starting to learn quite how unpleasant commuting is 'A commuter who travels one hour, one way, would have to make 40% more than his current salary to be as fully satisfied with his life as a noncommuter'. As people figure this out they will want to travel less.

3. Driverless car and road train technology won't be here tomorrow. But it will be around within the lifetime of a piece of new rail infrastructure. These wont make trains useless but if you can sit in your car and read a book or sleep it removes one of the big advantages of tains. You can also end up with less traffic which again reduces the advantage rail has.

NITransport

cavedave wrote: »

I do not think new rail lines or increased passanger number are likely for a few reasons.

1. People are not travelling as far anymore. Because of telecommuting and us spending our time sitting around arguing on forums it looks like total distance travelled per person is falling. This could also be because of car travel costs as well. But it does look like we will not travel as far per person in the future.

Err... have you read that article? It doesn't say distance travelled is falling... it says "Vehicle Miles Travelled" is falling, and that governments are slow to response to the public's travel habits, i.e. not responding to a desire to move towards public transport.

The article sums up and confirms the fears, and wishes held by advocates of rail transport in Ireland, it doesn't invalidate them (as per your intention).

cavedave

It doesn't say distance travelled is falling... it says "Vehicle Miles Travelled" is falling

People are not going to travel as far walking or on a bike as they will in a vehicle.

Think of the exodus recession explanation.

15 years ago most things you wanted to do involved going somewhere. Whether it be video shop, music shop, book shop, even the cinema can now be downloaded to an extent. With the increasing digitisation of what we how we spend our time we just dont need to go as many places.

that governments are slow to response to the public's travel habits, i.e. not responding to a desire to move towards public transport.

cars will be most effected by young people not having the same incentives to travel as cars are the most expensive way they used to travel. But other methods of transport will also be effected.

less than half of potential drivers age 19 or younger had a license in 2008, down from nearly two-thirds in 1998. The fraction of 20-to-24-year-olds with a license has also dropped.

car driving is reducing. I do not agree with you (and to an extent the article) that this necessarily means trains would get more popular.

popebenny16

rail transport does indeed have a future in ireland, insofar as it isnt going to vanish anytime in the next 50 years or so, but the question is what sort of future.

You could say that IE have shifted the tea leaves and through gazing into said temporal beverage ingrediant have come up with the Railcar Solution.

The idea would be, through the usage of DMU's and EMU's (DART), to cut running costs and maintenance costs down to the bone. This is done by only having a driver, maybe, eventually, a hop on, hop off conductor/inspector, and a uniform fleet of vehicles to reduce maintance issues. By constant sweating of assets and using a combiation of 3 or 6 car forms they would be hoping to have a basic regular service level on all main routes. On the DART front the idea was to extend the service to the main commuter towns around the city.

Now, you have to get that this was the plan before the celtic puss corpsed out. The plans have been skewered somewhat (or in the case of DART all but abandoned) but that is the basic model. Lines such as Nenagh, Clonmel, Rosslare, WRC, are kept on as tempting low hanging fruit for cutting. Staff are redeployed to satisfy the unions untill the last moment and then laid off (as is happening now) in a gradual fashion. All expenses are eliminated, so you get more TVMs in stations, less staff, you lose catering on the trains, you get less staff.

Slow investment, cut to the measure of these austere times, is made. There may, or may not be, retention of Locomotive Hauled trains on the Cork and Belfast lines. We wont have long to find out in the case of Belfast, and whatever happens there will happen to Cork about ten years later. I cant see electrification of either line just for one train per hour each way to Cork (and it will also have to be made to Limerick to get max use of the line) and somewhat less of a service to Belfast. The expense is too much as can be envisaged in the medium term whilst keeping a hold on reality.

As a consequence Cork and Belfast will probably go Railcar too, proabably of a higher standard than the 22K on other routes to be some brand of flagship service. Given that the expected lifetime of the current 22k fleet is of 40 years that will dove-tail nicely into another big chance to change things in or around 2050. At that point it will be electric or proabaly nothing.

At the moment in time IE are doing this and that, here and there, to get the Cork line up to 200kph someday. Thats all very well, but with the existing 201's pulling mark4s and having to do the amount of stops they do now due to funding cuts its actually not going to change much.

Whilst car usage on long distances is being hit by petrol at the 1.60 per litre mark this is not going to automatically transfer into train usage. For a start, hybrid and electric technology and lower car taxes and other ideas will constantly evolve to allow motoring and the motor industry to exist well beyond peak oil and petrol at mad prices per litre. Whilst that is going on, IE will still be lumped with 22k's and 201s on their tracks, and maybe not be given the money to do much about it. This will make the choice between car/bus/train interesting and great innovation will be needed by IE to come to a solution.

Other societal changes, as pointed out in the above cartoon of the chap at his monitor, will also play a part. the development of the country during the celtic tiger decade and a half was ruined by a large degree of greed, exploitation, abuse of process and many other things which I do not need to bang on about. That may not happen again, and indeed we may never see growth like that again either. The probable development of the country in a steady manner as a service/agricultural economy will probably not impact upon the railways in one great way or another. Unless there is massive population decrease the timetables we see today will be the timetables we will see (with the excpetion of DART/surburban rail) in 20 years time for the most part.

The only major development apart from Railcars to/from Cork and Belfast, the cuting of the low lying fruit and the general absence of staff from what we are used to, may be a desire to actually to DART underground, if there is a clear economic and enviromental demand for it. That depends on the economy pickign up to such an extent that its absence will be seen as a hinderance rather than a cost to the state. Same goes for Metros and Luas extensions.

So, thats my crystal ball contribution anyway. I have gleefully ignored the 2030 vision thing of IE in the interests, as I said above, of keeping some grip on reality. That said, at least they realised that if you dont ask you wont get, so you may as well ask for as much as you can, no matter how unrealistic it is.

popebenny16

one further point, which is just an aside, is that i think eventually there will be no 29k's, (the other railcars are being phased out) just 22k railcars and the successor to the Mark4 and DeDeitrich loco hauled services (and again i imagine they will be the same class of railcars). As it stands everything will soon be 22k and 29k anyway, given cuts of lines, cuts to services, the vailability of 3 car sets, and the small possibility of IE just buying a few more 3 car 22k's it will make the fleet very uniform indeed by the time replacement of the 201 hauled serivces comes up for proper discussion.

pigtown

All seems very reasonable and well thought out. Just wondering what you think the possibility of suburban rail in the other cities is? (In particular Limerick, I seem to have an obsession with this at the moment but have yet to see anyone else who has given it much thought).

kieran4003

Just to add my own views on this interesting discussion.

The most important issues for the rail network into the future will be the development of the Intercity network and the role of heavy rail in a modern transport system for Dublin.

The Intercity network must and will get faster. The trains are there, the frequency is there, but enhancements must be made. Key to having a fast, reliable network will need certain developemts over the next 10-20 years. This would involve:

-Relaying & short alingment improvements in the Intercity network.
-Double tracking Portarlington - Athlone, Maynooth - Mullingar & Athenry - Galway.
- Four tracking the Northern line to at least Malahide, Gradual extension of four tracking to Kildare
- Loops in Sixmilebridge, Kildare - Waterford & Sligo lines.

The Dart will be very important to the future of Dublin. The most important issues here will be frequency and connectivity. What will be required is:
-Dart Underground - This is the most important rail project this country will ever build. Essential for an integrated transport network.
-Electricfication to Maynooth, Hazelhatch, Drogheda (Ideally using long distance, fast EMU's).
- Extra DART carriages of course.

There is no need for any new lines, It is much more important to develop the existing network, the backbone of the countries transport infrastructure. There should be no reopening of meandering freight lines through hamlets in the West for example. A line to Navan may be worth considering.

steamengine

It would be sensible IMO that any existing rail alignments, either not currently in use, or likely to be disused over the coming decades be strictly mothballed so that they can be revived if necessary. How the cookie will crumble over the next fifty years or so is uncertain, but in Europe generally there is currently a shift in progress, from road to rail freight, largely due to pressure concerning carbon emissions coupled with a reduction in the use of fossil fuels. Regarding freight it costs 60% more fuel wise to shift freight by HGV's than rail. Further savings are possible via electrification, particularly if generated by renewables eg wind or nuclear.

Infrastructure that would cost hundreds of billions to replace shouldn't be lightly discarded. Who would have thought fifty years ago that part of the old Bray line from Harcourt Street or part of the Navan line or the Midleton line would again come into being. Regarding rail freight, while the current volume percentage is extremely low compared to road freight, it must be remembered that rail is extremely suitable for shifting repetitive heavy bulk cargos such as the zinc ore from the Tara mines operation. As I understand it over 2000 tons of ore are transported daily via 3 train loads, straight to Dublin docks. Apart from congestion it saves a lot of damage to secondary roads from high axle loads.

steamengine

The following video illustrates the basic points above at about 2 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHkoaIsaDHc

bk

Super post popebenny16, one of the best I've ever read on boards and almost exactly correct.

So to sum up, we will see very little change in rail in Ireland over the next 20 years. The schedules will look much the same as they do today.

There will be some minor tweaks and speed up of the schedules, they will likely be able to drop the journey time by about 20 or 30 minutes to Cork/Galway/Limerick (2h 30m to Cork, 2h for Limerick and Galway).

They will have wifi across the whole fleet and hopefully they will manage to get per seat power working across the entire intercity fleet.

Don't expect any developments with high speed trains or electrification of the network, at least not for the next 30 years.

Forget about any fancy high end catering services and first class. You will find that the train services will become very standardised and boring.

The most important activity at Irish Rail will be cost cutting. With reduction in passenger numbers due to the recession and fierce new competition from much cheaper and currently faster direct coach services (i.e. Aircoach, GoBus, Citlink, DublinCoach, etc.) and with the government cutting subsidies to Irish Rail, you can expect big cost cutting at IR over the next few years.

To do this the emphasis will be on reducing staff numbers while trying to maintain current schedule level. While hard for those effected, it makes perfect sense. They already have a very large fleet of very new trains, so no point in not using them and let them run ideal. Expect a great deal of automation to help reduce staff members. Ticket sellers at almost all stations will go, replaced by online booking and TVM's. Just the odd ticket seller/customer support person and one or two big stations like Hueston, Connolly, etc. This is obviously the plan as they haven't bothered to give the staff the ability to sell LEAP cards at any DART or commuter station. The writing is on the wall.

Ticket checkers will be rare as they focus on the automated gates and checkers at the one or two big stations.

Trains will increasingly just have one driver and no other staff on board.

Cost cutting will be the big theme of the next 10 years. They have to do this to keep ticket prices down, so that they can compete with the motorways.

I don't expect much change in DART or Dublin commuter services. Other then minor schedule tweaks and the disappearance of staff from the stations. Hopefully we will eventually get Dart Underground and a big increase in the DART schedule. DU is definitely one of the most important projects in Ireland.

I don't expect much development of commuter services outside of Dublin. Certainly no new lines will be opened. Perhaps minor tweaks here and there. The thing is traffic isn't half as bad outside Dublin, therefore it makes driving and buses more attractive, so hard for rail to compete.

Steamengine rail freight is dead. Ireland is totally unsuited to it. Yes their might be the odd train per day to Tara, etc. but realistically rail freight makes up less then 1% of all freight moved in Ireland and that will not change.

popebenny16 you are right, it will be interesting to see what happens with the fleet renewal in 40 years time. Some tough and expensive decisions then. Electrify or not? Another option that might emerge before then would be hydrogen power cell or lithium-air battery powered trains. We don't know if these technologies will develop far enough by then, but if they do, they might avoid the expense of full electrification.

Another theme of the next 20 years will be the possible splitting up of IR and possible privatisation.

Oh the continued emergence of broadband, along with Skype, etc. will have a big impact on intercity rail.

So yes, rail does have a future in Ireland. But not a very exciting or different one.

Aidan1

Just wondering what you think the possibility of suburban rail in the other cities is? (In particular Limerick,

That's a good question. Essentially, the only city in Ireland (the State) outside of Dublin that's big enough for any kind of commuter rail system is Cork, at least as currently set out, and even that has some real difficulties. The others are a messy mix of too small and/or have developed in ways not entirely suitable for rail.

Waterford is far too small for a commuter 'system' and the station is distant from much of the employment, but that's not to say that with some scheduling chages it couldn't be more commuter oriented.

Limerick has a better located station in theory, but a lot of the newer jobs are miles away from it, and the city itself has done very poorly in terms of creating new jobs over the last decade. The line that goes around the city isn't exactly best located for supporting commuter traffic either.

Galway has grown a lot over the last decade, but much of the growth has been very distant from existing infrastructure (limited though it is).

In those three cases, better use of the existing infrastructure (incl timetabling to support commuting), better use of other public transport options (buses) to support rail, and better land use planning to future proof systems is the best that can be hoped for.

Cork has the problem that there is no heavy rail on the South side, and so large areas will go unserved (Carrigaline, Douglas, Ballincollig), but the CASP prioritises growth in areas that are already served (Midleton, Monard, Rathpeacon, Carrigtwohill). Better public transport within the city itself, including possibly light rail to the Southern suburbs, and you're done.

popebenny16

pigtown wrote: »

All seems very reasonable and well thought out. Just wondering what you think the possibility of suburban rail in the other cities is? (In particular Limerick, I seem to have an obsession with this at the moment but have yet to see anyone else who has given it much thought).

i belive that, given the physcial lines which currently exist, we have got roughly as much as we are going to get. Limerick currently has a form of commuter service from Ennis, Nenagh and Thurles. I am very anti drawing crayon lines on a map, we are into a post fiscal treaty era of balanced budgets and on that basis i just cannot see the justification for turning the sod anywhere. All that remains is to develop more services on existing lines.

Cork also hasthe Middleton/Cobh/Mallow surburban network or at least the bed for one to develop properly. Again, i cannot see the demand for EMU's outside of dublin based on reality and the cost.

Waterford, well, IE closed Rosslare which had potential, and there is some potential from Clonmel to Waterford, but as that line is a low hanging bit of fruit do not hold your breath.

steamengine

bk wrote: »

..............Steamengine rail freight is dead. Ireland is totally unsuited to it. Yes their might be the odd train per day to Tara, etc. but realistically rail freight makes up less then 1% of all freight moved in Ireland and that will not change.

I don't think so !!!

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-rail-grows-freight-volumes-136pc-3023127.html

Judgement Day

steamengine wrote: »

I don't think so !!!

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-rail-grows-freight-volumes-136pc-3023127.html

I wish I was as optimistic as you steamengine but given that the article was in the 'chip wrapper' and sourced from CIE spin doctors.......

steamengine

Judgement Day wrote: »

I wish I was as optimistic as you steamengine but given that the article was in the 'chip wrapper' and sourced from CIE spin doctors.......

I doubt if I should be all that optimistic really, but it does seem that 'Rail' in general has been thrown a life-line by the whole carbon emissions issue. Whether this life-line is grasped in Ireland, or just waffled on about, is another matter. Anyway here's a more upmarket chip wrapper for you.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0713/breaking44.html

pigtown

popebenny16 wrote: »

i belive that, given the physcial lines which currently exist, we have got roughly as much as we are going to get. Limerick currently has a form of commuter service from Ennis, Nenagh and Thurles. I am very anti drawing crayon lines on a map, we are into a post fiscal treaty era of balanced budgets and on that basis i just cannot see the justification for turning the sod anywhere. All that remains is to develop more services on existing lines.

I agree that drawing lines on a map gets you nowhere but I think that a service on existing lines, coupled with a Limerick Bikes system could cover most of the city, apart from the Ennis Road, Condell Road area. Then again I don't know much about organising a train service.

corktina

steamengine wrote: »

I don't think so !!!

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-rail-grows-freight-volumes-136pc-3023127.html

"container traffic grows"...yeah from a really low base reached when they abandoned all other services. In reality freight is a fraction of what it was 10 or 20 years ago and the real trend is down, excepting the dead-cat-bounce brought about by Private Enterprise in the face of apathy from IE

Del2005

steamengine wrote: »

I doubt if I should be all that optimistic really, but it does seem that 'Rail' in general has been thrown a life-line by the whole carbon emissions issue. Whether this life-line is grasped in Ireland, or just waffled on about, is another matter. Anyway here's a more upmarket chip wrapper for you.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0713/breaking44.html

One company running a, relatively, long distance service ain't going to save rail freight in this country. This will benefit Mayo and some other parts of the West, but there's a huge part of the country where it'll cost more to get stuff onto and off trains then just loading straight onto trucks.

Do you not think that in these days of high diesel prices companies would be queuing up to use rail instead trucks?

Rail freight works for long distances, we don't have enough long distances, or regular bulk loads, we only have a few of these and they already use rail.

Where are we going to build all the new freight terminals to allow transfer of containers to trucks. How many will we need and if we do build them will we actually increase the amount of HGVs on our roads. If the containers are being dropped, say ever 50km along a track, then the HGVs will either be running empty a lot or we'll need more. So the cost to the customer will increase and we'll have loads of HGV's running with no loads which benefits nothing.

Finally who's going to pay for the infrastructure, if they can get past the NIMBYs?

chooochooo

I'll pay for it.

steamengine

Del2005 wrote: »

One company running a, relatively, long distance service ain't going to save rail freight in this country. This will benefit Mayo and some other parts of the West, but there's a huge part of the country where it'll cost more to get stuff onto and off trains then just loading straight onto trucks.

There are four regular rail freight operations operating currently, Coillte, DFDS, IWT and Tara mines. No one is suggesting a total shift to rail, a judicious use of both is the best way forward. Heavy bulk cargos are more suited to rail, are the most fuel efficient and environmentally friendly option, don't cause any damage to roads and avoid contributing to traffic congestion.

Do you not think that in these days of high diesel prices companies would be queuing up to use rail instead trucks?

The option doesn't exist in a lot of cases due to location, but for the four examples above I doubt if they chose railfreight because it's the more expensive option.

Rail freight works for long distances, we don't have enough long distances, or regular bulk loads, we only have a few of these and they already use rail.

The Tara mines run is short distance, three trains daily 800 tonnes each, are you suggesting this should be carried by road ? How many HGV's would this equate to and how much damage would be inflicted on secondary roads ?

Where are we going to build all the new freight terminals to allow transfer of containers to trucks. How many will we need and if we do build them will we actually increase the amount of HGVs on our roads. If the containers are being dropped, say ever 50km along a track, then the HGVs will either be running empty a lot or we'll need more. So the cost to the customer will increase and we'll have loads of HGV's running with no loads which benefits nothing.

Finally who's going to pay for the infrastructure, if they can get past the NIMBYs?

I would suggest that the notion of strategic railfreight interchanges are a good way off yet. I would be interested to hear anyone else's views on their possible viability though.

christmas2012

I think they should develop rail here,even have an underground metro type system,or like the london tube,if this form of travel was more common it would naturally become cheaper and more efficient..
If we put money into this in the boom times we would have had a solid investment and more jobs,its a pity they didnt think about developing these lines further,have an interconnected rail line throughout ireland..

Motorist

I would only use a train if it was high speed between two cities, for example Dublin to Galway in 50 - 60 minutes. That's never going to happen though.

As it currently stands, why would I bother with a train when it costs more than I use in fuel, leaves at pre-set times which don't always suit me, I have to get transport to the train station at both destinations, I cant bring alot of stuff - maybe one or two bags. I also have bad memories of trains from 7/8 years ago where more often than not, there would be substantial delays due to "signalling faults" - definitely more so than any delay I experience on the roads.

christmas2012

was over in london recently to visit a relative and the tube system is excellent,commuters use it going to work,on business,shopping or just to get somewhere.the metro in paris was great too,easy travel and cheap,its a pity public travel in ireland is not what it could be,it could be developed more where travel is cheap and common.although,i agree i think the train travel is a hassle,and very expensive here..

bk

steamengine wrote: »

There are four regular rail freight operations operating currently, Coillte, DFDS, IWT and Tara mines. No one is suggesting a total shift to rail, a judicious use of both is the best way forward. Heavy bulk cargos are more suited to rail, are the most fuel efficient and environmentally friendly option, don't cause any damage to roads and avoid contributing to traffic congestion.

Exactly and that is why rail freight will never play a significant part in Irelands freight carriage. Rail freight needs consistent heavy bulk loads. The amount of these in Ireland is ridiculously small. We have very little heavy industry and mining here. The vast majority of freight in Ireland is just in time, light to medium loads. Totally unsuited to rail.

Again no one is saying rail freight doesn't exist, just that it plays a ridiculously small and irrelevant part of Irelands freight handling and that isn't going to change.

FACT, rail freight makes up less then 1% of all freight in Ireland.

That isn't going to change in any significant way in the future. There really isn't any point in talking about it for Ireland.

civis_liberalis

I've only skimmed the posts apart from first one, but just speaking personally, living in Galway, buying a train ticket to get to Dublin from Galway would never enter my head.

Cheaper, cleaner and as comfortable, if not more so on GoBus for example.

Not out to bash anybody, just sharing my thoughts. You're still not even in town if you get the train. Add to that the state of the facilities in Galway train station.

corktina

One of the pet potential freight flows that gets trotted out is Tesco/Stobart. Lets assume they go for it and establish a base in Dublin near the docks supplying the country. Do they run a block train to Cork and distibute from there by road? If so, do they have sub-depots at , say Mallow and lim Junc or do they truck the stuff back to those areas from Cork? If they stop to offload , they kill any time advantage, if they truck back to them they are increasing the costs.... (repeat problem for other lines)

It doesnt really work in Ireland does it! They may as well truck the stuff from Dublin to intermediate points, but then they erode the cost benefits of the longer hauls (to Cork in this instance)

bk

As Corktina says, versus just having a big depot somewhere around the M50. Truck stuff directly into this depot and then distribute by truck to Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, etc.

All the cities are reachable in less then 3 hours. Much cheaper to have one big depot near the M50 and distribute from there, then lots of small depots, with extra staff all over the country.