Does rail transport have a future in Ireland?

bk

The problem is even if you electrify lines like Cork, at the cost of billions, it still isn't going to solve the fundamental problem of our highly dispersed, low density population.

Unfortunately the reality is we are a very car dependent society. Rail fans jump up and down talking about the environment, thinking that it will be the saviour of rail, that it will somehow lead to a mid 19th century revival in rail, with tracks all over the place.

I'm sorry, it just isn't going to happen. People like their cars too much, they aren't going anywhere.

The automobile industry is already making massive strides to replace and massively reduce oil use. In fact the technology is already there. It is just that the price of oil isn't high enough yet to make it worth it on a large scale yet. But it slowly getting their.

40 years from now, I predict we will all be driving hybrid cars, with battery for your average trip and oil/diesel/biogas for longer journeys.

Rail will still face the same challenges it does today. In order to compete it will have to be faster and cheaper then taking your car. Just like today. It won't have this environmental crutch that it currently tries to lean on.

That actually does give a small oppurtunaity for intercity rail. The high price * of oil/diesel/biogas for the long distance journeys might make the cost of intercity rail more competitive.

* there is a different train of thought that says if everyone switches to battery for the majority of their journeys, that the cost of oil/diesel/biogas will fall significantly, making the car even more competitive with rail, either is a possibility.

One thing that won't happen is the opening up of loads of currently unused tracks all over the place. At best we will see Cork -Dublin sped up and electrified, etc. not much else will happen.

JD raises the issue of cars having a shorter life span and the environmentally impact of them being built. This ignores the fact that nowadays the majority of old cars are recycled and rescued in new cars. It also ignores the fact that frankly most people don't care! Most people really don't care about the environment, they go on about it and then they turn around and leave in their suv or take a flight to Spain. Most people are very two faced. The reality is most people only care about the oil problem becaus eof how it effects their pockets. Solve that issue with batteries and they won't care about any other issues.

People want their cars, they won't leave you take that away from them.

JD I find it ironic that you call me anti rail and pro car/bus. I don't own a car (despite being easily able to afford one, I care about the environment and while I know it won't make much of a difference, I want to do my part), I walk, I cycle, I take public transport including bus, dart, Luas and rail.

The thing is I'm not pro and anti anything. What I want to do is move people from a to b in the fastest, most cost effective and environmentally friendly way possible. I see the bugger picture.

For instance I think the introducion of the new direct cheap bus services is great for the environment. Not only are these buses less polluting then the train, they are also much less polluting then the car. But with their much cheaper prices, the buses are much more likely to get people out of their cars then a €80 train ticket. In fact I got the air coach down from Dublin this weekend, I overheard a phone conversation, a women saying she was on the bus and how great it was, how in the past she would drive, but at €22 she just couldn't justify taking the car and paying the tolls and petrol anymore.

As an environmentalist, but also a realist, I think these cheap buses are having a much more beneficial impact on the environment then intercity rail.

That isn't saying we shouldn't continue with rail, we should. But I find it highly ironic when rail fans jump up and down all excited about the environmental benefits of rail, but then ignore the even more significant benefits of bus coaches. I think many don't really care about the environment, instead they will just use anything to promote their weird love for rail!

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

Why not go for a new generation of Drumm type trains for lightly used lines - I floated this idea before but it was shot-down by all the 'know-it-all' college boys on this forum. Drumm trains were produced when Inchicore Works was a centre of innovation not a place where clerks shuffle paper about to justify their jobs while waiting for the lump.

have trains recharging on off-peak cheap electricity at night, you mean?

I can't really think of a counter argument to that!

Del2005

steamengine wrote: »

I'm not making the case for 100% wind energy. But if wind represents presently 10%+ of the mix, then surely that figure can be increased upwards to 20% etc. I know very little about power generation practise but I do understand the base load concept, in our case gas and oil, and accept it has to remain. The idea I have heard from this physicist acquaintance of mine is that our wind energy supply should be increased via large wind farms sited off the West coast. Excess can be sold abroad via the interconnector to the UK and also used here to produce hydrogen as a fuel, via electrolysis. Nuclear or wind generated power can be imported in exchange depending on weather conditions etc. in the various countries.

My main interest is obviously railways, the curious thing is that all the technology is in place to run Intercity trains via a cleaner energy source such as wind power, whereas that technology has yet to be developed for Intercity buses. That is why IMO rail is potentially in a good place for the future. Will it happen though ???

The inter-connector to the UK is way to small for what you plan. We need to build massive ones to mainland Europe (France) to get onto that grid. Then we can export as much green energy as we want and get back base load nuclear.

steamengine

Del2005 wrote: »

The inter-connector to the UK is way to small for what you plan. We need to build massive ones to mainland Europe (France) to get onto that grid. Then we can export as much green energy as we want and get back base load nuclear.

TBH I'm just learning about this now, I find the car battery charging scenario you mentioned earlier interesting and it does seem to be a neat fit storage and usage wise for increased wind generation. Battery powered cars will be becoming more numerous from here on in anyway, and that is to be welcomed from an environmental and economic point of view as it should lessen our dependence on imported fossil fuels.

corktina

the trouble with electric cars surely is all the nasty pollution caused by making and disposing of the batteries, (which are very expensive and have a short life)

dowlingm

JD - I'll see your battery and raise you a flywheel
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/dmus-to-test-regenerative-braking.html

Seems to me that if some grant money was going around perhaps one of these could be fitted into a 2700 unit... keep a driver employed running it around rather than giving him a lump sum. Unfortunately Bombardier will probably want to see it put into one of their Turbostars or something instead.

Solair

I'd like to see more focus on mass transit rather than just rail for rails sake.

There is a lot of scope to do interesting transit projects using much higher quality busses than we currently use.

Cork, for example, could solve its transit issues through better use of busses and an autonomous transit authority.

A lot of Ireland's transit issues need better planning and more imaginative use of technology. We've a tendency to just want to roll out expensive and sometimes inappropriate rail projects.

Where rail is used for commuter routes, it ought to be electrified.

Dublin's commuter routes and probably Cork Commuter ought to be on the long term list to electrify. As it stands they're reply just diesel burning much like busses. I can't really see why they're any better than bus lanes and a fleet of new busses!

dowlingm

trains are better than buses because they have dedicated rights of way and have the potential to operate at higher passenger/driver ratios, particularly if the outer railhead is fed by local buses.

corktina

People love their cars.

There is no way in the world that most of them will take a step backwards to Public Transport and cheaper , more efficent green ways to propel a car will be found,

The Age of the Train is long gone and they will follow the Canal into obscurity except in certain well defined examples :

Heavy bulk frieght (we have nearly none)
Inter City between Major cities (we have only one and two halves...)
Commuter (Dublin and a little bit around Cork and Belfast)

Long Distance Buses score because they can use the Infrastructure provided for the Mighty Car.

Del2005

dowlingm wrote: »

trains are better than buses because they have dedicated rights of way and have the potential to operate at higher passenger/driver ratios, particularly if the outer railhead is fed by local buses.

No one is going to get a bus to swap to a train to swap to a bus to get where they want to go. They'll either bus it all the way or drive.

In order for trains to become viable in this country it would required the total redistribution of the population. We'd have to force people to live in towns, and some villages, along current rail lines bit they can't be more than a 5-10 minute walk from the station or else they'll drive.

Can you imagine any politician getting elected when they tell rural home owners that they all have to move from their ribbon development housing into large towns to avail of public transport. No people want to live in the middle of nowhere and still think that they can have mass transit, while totally missing the mass bit.

bk

Excellent and totally correct points made by Solair, corktina and Del2005, couldn't agree more and pretty much sums up the future of rail in Ireland.

dowlingm wrote: »

trains are better than buses because they have dedicated rights of way and have the potential to operate at higher passenger/driver ratios, particularly if the outer railhead is fed by local buses.

It isn't as simple as that, trains have pros and cons, as do bus coaches.

Buses can also have dedicated right of way. It is just a matter of allocating it where needed (e.g. bus lanes). Buses have an advantage that they aren't limited to specific right of ways and can go pretty much anywhere a road goes, unlike rail.

So with buses you can have the best of both worlds. Dedicated right of ways where needed due to traffic levels, while being able to cover any ground flexibly when needed.

Trains may have higher passenger/driver ratios, but that doesn't take into account all the other staff that are required to run rail services.

Looking at annual reports *, Irish Rail has 2.6 times as many staff per thousand passengers carried as Bus Eireann does. And BE is a lot less efficient then the private operators.

So bus coaches actually require less staff in reality.

With bus coaches you also have far greater flexibility. At peak times you can much more easily just put on an extra bus or two. With Irish Rail they run almost empty eight carriage trains up and down the country at off peak times. This is very bad for the environment and is a major reason diesel trains aren't anywhere near as environmentally friendly as bus coaches. An empty train uses almost the same amount of diesel as a full one and thus the same amount of co2 and running costs. But with buses you can just put on one bus rather then two or three, etc. and thus much less pollution.

Also if demand increases significantly, it is much easier and quicker to contract in a third party bus to help and to also order in new buses and to hire and train up new drivers. It can be done in months, versus years with trains.

So on the whole, bus coaches allow for much greater flexibility in routing, in meeting passenger demand and numbers.

The advantages of rail are:
- Can reach much higher speeds. But we don't have that in Ireland and will likely never have. Speeds will improve a little in Ireland, but not significantly.

- Can be more environmentally friendly. But isn't in Ireland due to the use of Diesel trains on intercity and unlikely to change.

- Can offer more services like catering and more walking around room. This is pretty much the only advantage of intercity rail in Ireland.

* I'm shocked that the 2010 Irish Rail annual report doesn't include passenger numbers. My god, how can an annual report of a transport company not include passenger numbers, it is the most important piece of information!!

steamengine

I suppose if people are happy to trundle along at 100 kph or 62.5 mph, good luck to them. Not exactly 21st century speeds by any manner or means !!! I suppose some significant speed increases for buses are envisaged also at some vague point in the future, along with all the other innovations which are not exactly yet in place !!!

corktina

its a question of affordability. Our rail network is subsidised by the Social Welfare passengers. If it werent for them,(and lets face it they wouldnt be there if they didnt ride for free) the fares would be so high as to be totally unaffordable.

The question is; how long will the Taxpayers who never use a train be prepared to fund the Railways?

christmas2012

They should have an interconnected rail system in every town and city,there are all old disused lines that could be refurbished,put investment in this area,and employ people and you could watch the money roll in,if it was more efficient,and more common it would become cheaper..

It could be a whole industry with plenty of money and employment its just our government cant see beyond their own paychecks and what is happening right now with the euro,when a potential industry is right under their noses..

bk

steamengine wrote: »

I suppose if people are happy to trundle along at 100 kph or 62.5 mph, good luck to them. Not exactly 21st century speeds by any manner or means !!! I suppose some significant speed increases for buses are envisaged also at some vague point in the future, along with all the other innovations which are not exactly yet in place !!!

The reality is that the trains here in Ireland also trundle along at that same speeds on average.

And the reality is that the coaches are faster to the city centers. Got the Aircoach at 3am from Cork last night. Took just 2 hours 45 minutes to O'Connell St.

Ignoring the fact that it wouldn't be possible to even take the train at that hour, the average journey time of the Cork to Dublin train is 2 hours 47 minutes. And that dumps me at Hueston, so now add another 20 to 30 minutes to that to get to O'Connell St.

You could easily increase the speed limit for coaches to 120km/h. They are more then capable of it safely. After all the speed limit for coaches in the UK on generally worse roads is 113km/h (70mph).

The Newlands cross development will remove a significant bottlekneck, as would the switch over of the tolls bridges to M50 style camera system.

While rail speeds should and I guess will improve, we will never have continental style high speed rail. We simply don't have the population size and density to justify the billions it would cost to build.

Forget about it, it just won't ever happen.

If we had that sort of money, much better to spend it on Dart Underground, Metro North, electrification of commuter lines, etc. A far, far better return on investment.

bk

christmas2012 wrote: »

They should have an interconnected rail system in every town and city,there are all old disused lines that could be refurbished,put investment in this area,and employ people and you could watch the money roll in,if it was more efficient,and more common it would become cheaper..

Err, I think anyone with even the most basic understanding of economics and demographics will know how crazy and unworkable this is. Even the most extreme rail fan would never propose this.

Take the Western Rail Corridor as an example, cost 100 million to re-open and now is carrying a mere 160 passengers a day!! It is doing so badly it requires a 2.4 million per year subvention to run. It would actually be cheaper to pay for a taxi for each passenger carried!!

So no, lets not piss billions of our money away and instead focus on investments in rail that are actually needed and will bring an economic benefit and return.

EurasiaEndtoEnd

Let me bring in a perspective from Japan, where I live. The Greater Tokyo area has a population of about 36m (contained in Tokyo and the three prefectures that border it) and has what must be the world's densest coverage of railways. Let's say, for argument's sake that this is the equivalent of the South-East of England plus Belgium or The Netherlands which have dense networks and expanding coverage.

But if we look at Japan's equivalent of Ireland, the island of Hokkaido (which has a land area almost the same as Ireland and a population of 5.5m) we can see a declining network, abandoned lines and stations. 600km of lines have closed in the last 20 years. Sapporo, the capital city, does have electrified lines, subways as well as trams but also a major dependence on the private car.

Hokkaido is linked to the main island by the world's longest rail tunnel and has many electric lines, things which Ireland does not have and may be too late to install. So even in a country of 128m with a huge rail sector, you can see that an area equivalent to Ireland in terms of size, isolation and population has similar problems maintaining a vibrant railway industry away from populated areas.

As I see it, the future of rail in Ireland is mostly around Dublin where it can be of most benefit for mass transit. The rest of Ireland is too sparsely populated, spread out and too addicted to cars to go back to rail.

BrianBoru00

Regarding the upgrading of trains to 160kph being do-able - I enquired and was told the biggest obstacle to this is the amount of level crossings along the current railways - there are hundreds and hundreds on each line.

Apart from the normal automatic ones there are ones on privately owned lands which still contain a right of way over the track and in some cases its the only access to land a farmer may have. Give that that it takes a full passenger train something like a mile to stop from 60mph, this rules out any high speed on almost all of the current infrastructure...

pigtown

bk wrote: »

Take the Western Rail Corridor as an example, cost 100 million to re-open and now is carrying a mere 160 passengers a day!! It is doing so badly it requires a 2.4 million per year subvention to run. It would actually be cheaper to pay for a taxi for each passenger carried!!

Do you think the line could have been successful if it had been done properly (faster, with fewer stations in the middle of nowhere)?

christmas2012

''Take the Western Rail Corridor as an example, cost 100 million to re-open and now is carrying a mere 160 passengers a day!! It is doing so badly it requires a 2.4 million per year subvention to run. It would actually be cheaper to pay for a taxi for each passenger carried!!''


Its down to bad allocation of funding,and not enough advertising,and,if they bit the bullet and made the cost of transport to the public cheaper, they would be carrying a lot more passengers,and they would get a bigger return.

You get what you put in,where i live there are two disused rail lines i live near two towns and there is two lines that have been out of operation for twenty plus years,its a shame because the expense of a car with road tax,tax for the actual car itself,and mandatory insurance,and the cost of petrol,and the cost of the initial driving lessons(210) and car test itself(Which has gone up to 85) doesnt come cheap..

If you look at the uk,they have plenty of interconnected rails,and the tube,or the paris and the metro,you can see the money they are raking in,theres no reason why ireland cant do the same if they are smart about it..

corktina

the difference of course ia there are lots and lots of people in the Uk and France....

everyone and their dog (except the WoT zealots who have their own agenda) could see the WRC was going to be a huge expensive white elephant. Why when you have already paid for your road tax and car insurance, would you use the WRC rather than the N/M17 which is actually quicker and much more direct.

steamengine

christmas2012 wrote: »

They should have an interconnected rail system in every town and city,there are all old disused lines that could be refurbished,put investment in this area,and employ people and you could watch the money roll in,if it was more efficient,and more common it would become cheaper..

It could be a whole industry with plenty of money and employment its just our government cant see beyond their own paychecks and what is happening right now with the euro,when a potential industry is right under their noses..

Whatever about re-incarnating old lines, one can't escape the fact that luckily for us there is still a fairly comprehensive rail network in place. I believe, contrary to the majority opinion here at the moment, that rail may undergo a revival in the next 50 years or so. Unfortunately, the motorway brigade have yet to put forward a solid alternative method of powering, heavy vehicles in a timely manner from one end of the country to the other. Oil prices will be through the roof, and to date there is no method of electrifying the motorway network in the same manner as rail.

This sea change is underway but the full implications have not yet kicked in. Already on boards, there has been posts where people are complaining about the monthly cost of diesel rising to a point where they have abandoned their cars in favour of public transport.

As I've stated electrification of the rail network is one solution, more of a reality than as yet unproven hydrogen cell technology (for heavy vehicles) or whatever. At least we know that straightforward electricity works. The E-car system looks like a runner for the future car wise, charging points have been installed country wide.

bk

steamengine wrote: »

Unfortunately, the motorway brigade have yet to put forward a solid alternative method of powering, heavy vehicles in a timely manner from one end of the country to the other.

Err, biofuels do an excellent job of powering trucks and buses.

steamengine wrote: »

This sea change is underway but the full implications have not yet kicked in. Already on boards, there has been posts where people are complaining about the monthly cost of diesel rising to a point where they have abandoned their cars in favour of public transport.

Yes, but not necessary to rail. With a return journey from Cork to Dublin costing about €60 by car, no one is going to switch to rail at €80 return.

However €22 by coach bus looks much more attractive to such people.

steamengine

bk wrote: »

Err, biofuels do an excellent job of powering trucks and buses.

By solid alternative method I meant sufficient quantity as well. You've already referred to this in one of your posts above, regarding bio fuels.

Yes, but not necessary to rail. With a return journey from Cork to Dublin costing about €60 by car, no one is going to switch to rail at €80 return.

Please read my posts carefully, I said 'public transport' which, yes, includes buses.

However €22 by coach bus looks much more attractive to such people.

As I've said previously I am not here to bat for Irish Rail. I am referring to the railway system. I've no problem with people choosing the cheapest option, rail or bus.

bk

steamengine wrote: »

By solid alternative method I meant sufficient quantity as well. You've already referred to this in one of your posts above, regarding bio fuels.

Well if you only use biofuels for trucks and buses, it would be ok.

It is only when people think they can use it to power all vehicles, that it becomes an issue.

Del2005

steamengine wrote: »

christmas2012 wrote: »

They should have an interconnected rail system in every town and city,there are all old disused lines that could be refurbished,put investment in this area,and employ people and you could watch the money roll in,if it was more efficient,and more common it would become cheaper..

It could be a whole industry with plenty of money and employment its just our government cant see beyond their own paychecks and what is happening right now with the euro,when a potential industry is right under their noses..

Whatever about re-incarnating old lines, one can't escape the fact that luckily for us there is still a fairly comprehensive rail network in place. I believe, contrary to the majority opinion here at the moment, that rail may undergo a revival in the next 50 years or so. Unfortunately, the motorway brigade have yet to put forward a solid alternative method of powering, heavy vehicles in a timely manner from one end of the country to the other. Oil prices will be through the roof, and to date there is no method of electrifying the motorway network in the same manner as rail.

This sea change is underway but the full implications have not yet kicked in. Already on boards, there has been posts where people are complaining about the monthly cost of diesel rising to a point where they have abandoned their cars in favour of public transport.

As I've stated electrification of the rail network is one solution, more of a reality than as yet unproven hydrogen cell technology (for heavy vehicles) or whatever. At least we know that straightforward electricity works. The E-car system looks like a runner for the future car wise, charging points have been installed country wide.

The biggest hindrance to the railways in Ireland ever becoming viable outside of Dublin is the Irish love of one off housing. No matter how much I or anyone else wants decent rail transport we can't build it or spend money on it till we get population densities to make putting money into it, as can be seen with the WRC.

The people who can't afford fuel to drive to work bought too far away in the boom, looking for bigger and bigger houses, and I'd say that a large percentage still have to drive further than my commute to get to the train station. With proper planning, anyone remember the gateway towns?, we could have had viable towns to build trains to. Instead we've got estates and houses sprinkled all over the place with no though about public transport.

You can't have small villages and one off housing and a decent public transport system unless you're willing to pay for it. I don't think many urban tax payers want to subsidies inefficient services when we can't make money in the biggest cities.

popebenny16

christmas2012 wrote: »

''Take the Western Rail Corridor as an example, cost 100 million to re-open and now is carrying a mere 160 passengers a day!! It is doing so badly it requires a 2.4 million per year subvention to run. It would actually be cheaper to pay for a taxi for each passenger carried!!''


Its down to bad allocation of funding,and not enough advertising,and,if they bit the bullet and made the cost of transport to the public cheaper, they would be carrying a lot more passengers,and they would get a bigger return.

You get what you put in,where i live there are two disused rail lines i live near two towns and there is two lines that have been out of operation for twenty plus years,its a shame because the expense of a car with road tax,tax for the actual car itself,and mandatory insurance,and the cost of petrol,and the cost of the initial driving lessons(210) and car test itself(Which has gone up to 85) doesnt come cheap..

If you look at the uk,they have plenty of interconnected rails,and the tube,or the paris and the metro,you can see the money they are raking in,theres no reason why ireland cant do the same if they are smart about it..

i would firstly like to address the part of the post which i have highlighted in bold. You can hardly say that the WRC is not advertised enough. It has been a very loudly talked about political and social cause in the West for many many years, and the opening of Phase one got a tremendous amount of media coverage. Are you suggesting that people have forgotten that it is there? Let me suggest another theory - it is not actually relevent to many people. The same thing is happening on the 0505 train to dublin via the Ballybrophy line. Average loadings on the branch are 4 souls a day. Why? maybe that is the total number of people who actally find that service relevent. its well advertised and there will be a massive political strop when Count Leo cancells it, but you cannot invent passengers who plainly do not exist.

In relation to your other point, this has been replied to already by some posters, but I will add my two cents. You cannot compare Paris or London and their surrounding areas to ireland. the demographic situation is totally different. We do not, and we will not have the population for that. The idea of re-opening old lines is laudable but it is very much off the plans.

We are, for better or worse, in a post Fiscal Treaty situation. We have to run a balanced budget, which means that if we are to avoid another bailout we have to run the state on our income (around €36 billion this year) plus a small current deficit of about €1 billion. Thats it. (we also have to make repayments of national debt to meet the treaty obligations of a few billion each year for a period of 20 years).

So, when the treaty comes into effect on us we have, untill we get back to good employment, about €30 to €40 billion to run the entire country on.

When we are thinking of grandiose plans for the railways we have to keep this in mind. There will be very little capital spending done on the railways in the medium term save what has to be spent. This will be on fleet upgrades where really needed - Belfast, maybe Cork, if they allow the Belfast Fleet to be dragged to death to meet up with mid-life refurb of the Mark4 fleet.

Anything at will be on our rails will, like our BE and BAC fleets, be standardised international available stock. You can forget Drumm trains or anything like it. IE will go out into the mass market and pick up whatever they can as cheaply as they can. There will be no mass orders like the ICR fleet (which only happened because IE got spare roads money). So the chances are that we will get something like Virgin has in the UK, and if there is ever money to electrify the mainlines we will be all sitting in peldolinos to Cork and Belfast.

No this, and my previous posts, are my optimistic and hopefully, realistic views on the railways. Want to hear my pessimentic? Thats the one where we end up in bailout 2 and beyond?

Thats the one where there are four trains a day dublin to cork and back. No trains to limerick/kerry just branch services off those cork trains. Those cork trains BTW will be 6 car ICRs, the branch ones 3 cars. No staff only driver, you may be getting a trolly service on the cork train, you may not. You wont get one anywhere else.

Galway will be a 6-car three times a day. There will be a three car at Athlone for Westport. Depending on the political situation you might have one to ballina. You might not.

Belfast will be the same as now, for it is half funded by the UK.

You may get skeleton services to Waterford, maybe one on the morning one back in the evening, same down to Wexford, but dont count on it.

Sligo would be down to skeleton service too, one up one down.

WRC - Gone. Clonmel - Gone. Ballybrophy - Gone. Ballina - probably gone.

If things are tight for long enough, say goodbye to Westport and Kerry, Waterford and Wexford. Commuter Services to and from Kilkenny and Arklow will be your lot.

And all on 22k ICR's. Get used to them, they may outlive all of us.

corktina

im sorry to say your 2nd scenario is probably fairly accurate....

you mention the Kerry branch. Given its circuitous route, will that survive? It isnt very relelvant, anyone got the passenger figures?

end of the road

bk wrote: »

how could you justify spending such money, when bus coaches provide almost the same level of service for basically zero cost to the tax payer.

rubbish, the taxpayer has to pay for the maintaining of the motor ways, more cost then steal tracks.
bus coaches are to slow, horid and will never be sufficient for everyone, spending money on a railway making it faster then the motor way is money well spent. i bet you the likes of todd andrews and doctor beeching came out with the same rubbish, in the case of beeching some of the lines he closed have been re-opened or partly re-opened. if your going to close the rail network most people are just going to go to their cars, why bother with a bus going the exact same way. i'd rather have money spent on railways rather then paying back the gambling debts of private banks and speculators.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

rail freight is dead.

no it isn't, the timper and the tara mines trains. so technically it is still alive just about.

bk wrote: »

Ireland is totally unsuited to it.

for the majority of whats being transported yes, but if CIE hadn't been able to destroy the freight infrastructure and run down everything ireland could be able to have it on the unlightly off chance companies did require it.