Does rail transport have a future in Ireland?

bk

steamengine wrote: »

Including private motorists who pay but don't get any return. I would suggest that is indirect subsidisation.

And they are also directly subsidising rail which they also never use.

But bus coach operators do pay road tax, tolls and tax on fuel.

It is hard to quantify, but I would guess they are covering their fair share of the cost of roads.

That do you think they should pay, the full cost of the roads all on their own?

Just so you can find a justification for rail and try to make it more competitive!! Mad.

But this whole thing is an argument in favour of roads and against rail.

If you look at it from a purely economic point of view (I don't, but for arguments sake), given that roads make the government money, while rail costs them money. Then economically speaking, the best thing to do would be to shut down the rails completely and focus on roads exclusively.

People would then switch to cars and bus coaches. More cars mean more tax money taken in and non lost to rail. Public transport users switch to bus, which if operated by a private operator, costs the state nothing.

Yes there would be more buses and cars on the road, but as was earlier pointed out our motorways are underustilised as is and could easily cope with the increase demand if rail shut down. In fact it would be a better utilisation of the resources we already have.

Yes there would likely be a small incremental increase in road maintenance costs due to extra traffic, but that would be more then made up for with the increased taxes raised and the savings from shutting down subsidies to rail.

Now please understand, I'm not actually suggesting we do this, I'm just playing devils advocate and putting forward the ultimate conclusion of this line of thought.

end of the road

steamengine wrote: »

A bit smart don't you think to point up spelling mistakes, what's your contribution to the discussion ???

i'd say nothing, the fact he called them the timber mines trains instead of the tara mines trains says it all.

corktina

dubhthach wrote: »

How big were the two endpoints in terms of population?

Pretty big if they bioth have trams/metros....

steamengine

bk wrote: »

And they are also directly subsidising rail which they also never use.

But bus coach operators do pay road tax, tolls and tax on fuel.

It is hard to quantify, but I would guess they are covering their fair share of the cost of roads.

That do you think they should pay, the full cost of the roads all on their own?

Just so you can find a justification for rail and try to make it more competitive!! Mad.

No I don't think they should pay the full cost, but if one could hypothetically quantify the true amount they should be paying, then it would put the railway subvention into context. The fact remains, roads cost the central exchequer in the same way as rail. You say that you don't see why you should have to contribute to a rail service you don't use. I don't use the motorways regularly enough to be contributing to them either. But I do and realise that is what infrastructure is all about, greasing the wheels of the economy.

Interestingly too, these coach companies, though engaged in legitimate competition are just picking off the lucrative business that exists. Fair weather operators, and good luck to them I say.

Irish Rail and Bus Eireann (formally CIE), operate on a 'social' basis and fair dues to them, brought and still bring everybody to all destinations in the land, and hopefully will do so in the future whatever the financial weather. They are worth the subvention IMO.

corktina

Worth the subvention perhaps NOW but at what point do you decide they are no longer worth it?

I wonder whether IE should be considering sending every other Cork to Dublin train through non stop, with extra stops on the opposite hour? That way they WOULD compete on time with the buses and intermediate stations would still have a train every 2 hours, albeit a bit slower. Its obvious that some radical action is called for.

bk

Something should only be subsidised if it supplies a social or economic need and can't be delivered by other means without a subsidy.

The problem here is that most of what Irish Rail delivers can now be delivered by private coach bus operators with no subsidy. Thus bringing into question the continued subsidisation of Irish Rail.

Btw of course private operators are going to use their limited resources to first target the most profitable routes. Hardly surprising.

I do agree that there is a need to subsidise certain quiet routes which aren't feasible for private companies to cover.

But rail is a terribly expensive and inflexible way to do that. I would also question if we need the massive organisations of IR and BE to cover these subsidised routes. Another approach is to tender out to various companies to run such routes without the massive overheads of CIE.

corktina

Rail is expensive, we are already paying for the Roads infrastructure and it would be more economic NOT to be paying for Rail Infrastructure as well.

and that comes from a Railfan!

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

Worth the subvention perhaps NOW but at what point do you decide they are no longer worth it?

I wonder whether IE should be considering sending every other Cork to Dublin train through non stop, with extra stops on the opposite hour? That way they WOULD compete on time with the buses and intermediate stations would still have a train every 2 hours, albeit a bit slower. Its obvious that some radical action is called for.

Whatever it takes, alternate non stops, limited stops, Ryanair cheap fares approach to put bums on seats, get the journey times down. Surely they don't need to be told the obvious. As regards the subvention, I reckon a much leaner and smarter operation is on the cards anyway, and yes radical action is called for now.

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

Rail is expensive, we are already paying for the Roads infrastructure and it would be more economic NOT to be paying for Rail Infrastructure as well.

and that comes from a Railfan!

Why not trim back both. Remembering two years back, rail was the only transport system which functioned during that big white-out the country had to endure. An oil shortage is another possibility. Public transport might be stretched so rail and bus would be required. It's a case of AND not OR if at all possible.

corktina

the worst of both worlds is what you want eh?

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

the worst of both worlds is what you want eh?

No, but as a rail enthusiast I certainly wouldn't be advocating the demise of rail !!!

corktina

you mean keep it just for the sake of it, even if the Country can't afford it? It doesnt seem logical to me.

bk

steamengine wrote: »

Why not trim back both. Remembering two years back, rail was the only transport system which functioned during that big white-out the country had to endure. An oil shortage is another possibility. Public transport might be stretched so rail and bus would be required. It's a case of AND not OR if at all possible.

Road has already been massively trimmed back. Almost all road construction projects have ceased other then one or two very minor ones. The Bandon/Sarsfield Interchanges is pretty much the only thing being currently built and Newlands Cross will likely get the go ahead later in the year.

Everything else is on permanent hold at best.

The priority of the Department of Transport is now to maintain the infrastructure we currently have and make the most out of it.

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

Rail is expensive, we are already paying for the Roads infrastructure and it would be more economic NOT to be paying for Rail Infrastructure as well.
and that comes from a Railfan!

Do you mind me asking you what you think the end result of that would be ?

I would seriously like to know.

What would the follow on consequences be for the country's rail service ?

corktina

end result of ..what?

Not paying for Rail Infrastructure means no Rail I assume.

I'd hate to see that PERSONALLY but the Country has much more important things to spend what little money we have on, such as Health and Education and if there is a cheaper way to do what we are doing (and I fear there is...) then I think its inevitable that more closures will come,
We could be left with only a couple of main lines plus commuter services, but will the viability of these be affected by the loss of the rest?

monument

It's not suprising that thatcherite-like views on rail would come into play when the motorway network was completed...

dubhthach wrote: »

This covered basically all of NRA funding over that period. This only factors in VRT completing ignoring all other road taxes.

Lol -- NRA costs are nowhere near total road costs: even before getting to the large and very real costs of things like congestion, pollution health and environment costs, inactivate costs and road crash costs, you have the local authorty spending, Department of Transport spending, and more recently the NTA spending on roads. Planning, construction and on going costs.

bk wrote: »

The problem here is that most of what Irish Rail delivers can now be delivered by private coach bus operators with no subsidy. Thus bringing into question the continued subsidisation of Irish Rail.

That's a nice dream you have going there.

Finding uncongested road space in cities for commuter and intercity services is the largest problem.

Many of the passangers would not make the switch to bus. Personally I don't like having to drive but I'd rent or borrow a car going from Dublin to Mayo rather than going back to taking a bus for such a trip. With a baby, there's no way I'm taking a bus for such a trip regardless of how green etc I think I am!

bk wrote: »

And they are also directly subsidising rail which they also never use.

But bus coach operators do pay road tax, tolls and tax on fuel.

It is hard to quantify, but I would guess they are covering their fair share of the cost of roads.

That do you think they should pay, the full cost of the roads all on their own?

Just so you can find a justification for rail and try to make it more competitive!! Mad.

Look at it this way: Why should we be subsidising buses?

And I find it hard to see how you think coaches are covering "fair share of the cost of roads"! If tomorrow we put all motor tax into fuel and everybody pays the same at the pumps, do you think buses would be paying the same?

Judgement Day

^^^^^^^Some sense at last! monument to fill vacancy as C+T mod.

corktina

what subsidy do Aircoach or Citylink get then? Bus Eireann do on some services I think, but the private coaches are trying to make a go of it out of the farebox.

Commuter services arent the issue, they are probably quite safe, but in any case there are bus lanes into the city centres on many main routes,and they are pretty much underused. You want to drive? well, up to you to solve any problems you may face.

Many rail users wont swop to the coach, but many have and many many more are switching to the car... at some point someone will have to cry, "Enough!" and cut out the Rail subsidy...

monument

corktina wrote: »

what subsidy do Aircoach or Citylink get then? Bus Eireann do on some services I think, but the private coaches are trying to make a go of it out of the farebox..

Motorised transport In general is subsidised -- the real costs are not paid by motorists.

What's even clearer is, with motor tax, heavy users are subsidised by occasional and even light daily users. The people who have a car taxed but sitting at home while they walk, cycle or take a bus, tram or train to work/college are paying more -- in effect subsidising heavy users.

corktina wrote: »

Commuter services arent the issue, they are probably quite safe, but in any case there are bus lanes into the city centres on many main routes,and they are pretty much underused...

Which bus lanes are under used in central Dublin at peak times?

corktina wrote: »

You want to drive? well, up to you to solve any problems you may face...

Nope -- the state wants to reduce car use for many good reasons.

silverharp

I'm remembering rail trips I used to take as a kid. Dublin to Kerry, it involved a taxi to Heuston station, the rail trip and then be met by a relative at Killarney for another hour in a car. So essentially a return trip needed 2 and half hours of car time door to door. At the same time there was little investment in the roads. It just looks like that rail in Ireland is a duplication as opposed to a choice and the population density doesnt justify rail and if it did it would make money which it clearily doesnt.

corktina

monument wrote: »

Motorised transport In general is subsidised -- the real costs are not paid by motorists.

What's even clearer is, with motor tax, heavy users are subsidised by occasional and even light daily users. The people who have a car taxed but sitting at home while they walk, cycle or take a bus, tram or train to work/college are paying more -- in effect subsidising heavy users.


Not talking about Motorists, talking about bus companies






Which bus lanes are under used in central Dublin at peak times?

are they nose to tail buses then? could you not fit a few more in? do the buses move faster or slower than the cars?




Nope -- the state wants to reduce car use for many good reasons.

Not advocating car use in any way was I?

monument

corktina wrote: »

Not talking about Motorists, talking about bus companies

Poor wording on my part, but the same applies to bus companies.

corktina wrote: »

are they nose to tail buses then? could you not fit a few more in? do the buses move faster or slower than the cars?

Bus lanes are not supposed to be "nose to tail" with buses -- for the most part bus lanes are supposed to be clear. An effective bus lane won't be congested -- it will be clear!

In Dublin, you also have the following problems:

• Bus lanes which end before junctions or merge with the left hand turning lane
• Private car drivers who think it's ok to illegally use long stretched before getting to those left turns
• Bus lanes full of bus stops in central areas without having bus priority around those stops (the north quays in a prime example)
• More taxis than the city needs by a long shot
• Poorly designed shared bus/cycle lanes where buses can't overtake cyclists safety within the lane.
• Illegal parking / stopping / loading in places, even at peak times with bus lanes and clearways in effect
• Lost priority after 7pm on most routes, at other hours on a few routes, and all day Sunday on nearly all routes -- this is important for intercity generally and really important when there's an event on.

corktina wrote: »

Not advocating car use in any way was I?

I never said you were.

My point is when people get to the point of wanting to use a car rather than public transport, that's mainly a problem for the state. Rail is part of the public transport mix across Europe and most of the world, thatcherite-like views on spending won't fix that.

corktina

i fail to see what thatcher has to do with it.Just jargon without illumination

bk

monument wrote: »

Lol -- NRA costs are nowhere near total road costs: even before getting to the large and very real costs of things like congestion, pollution health and environment costs, inactivate costs and road crash costs, you have the local authorty spending, Department of Transport spending, and more recently the NTA spending on roads. Planning, construction and on going costs.

A very detailed post with direct facts from budgets a few posts up show that motor tax and duty on fuel more then pays for all the costs of all roads in Ireland.

If you believe otherwise please give some facts and evidence to back up you assertion.

monument wrote: »

Finding uncongested road space in cities for commuter and intercity services is the largest problem.

Many of the passangers would not make the switch to bus. Personally I don't like having to drive but I'd rent or borrow a car going from Dublin to Mayo rather than going back to taking a bus for such a trip. With a baby, there's no way I'm taking a bus for such a trip regardless of how green etc I think I am!

I have already switched from train to bus as have most of my Corkonian friends (€22 versus €80 and quicker by bus, no brainer).

I readily admit Dublin to Mayo by bus would be painful. But you took one of the most painful possible journeys there. Dublin to Cork, Limerick, Galway, Belfast can all now be taken faster and much cheaper on lovely comfortable bus coaches and these routes make up the vast majority of commuters on IR's intercity network.

BTW no one is suggesting shutting down DART and commuter rail, they are absolutely essential services. Intercity rail isn't so much anymore.

As for bringing a baby on a bus coach, I saw exactly this being done in Norway just 3 weeks ago. They had one or two seats on the bus, where the seat in front could be tilted forward and turned into a baby seat, with the child directly facing the mother.

It was actually a safer option then what Irish Rail offers. Even BE and Aircoach have baby seat compatible three point harness on their seats. So again safer then rail. Completely possible to bring a baby onboard the train.

monument wrote: »

Look at it this way: Why should we be subsidising buses?

But we aren't, non of the private operators (e.g. Aircoach, Citylink, GoBus, Dublin Coach, etc.) receive a subsidy, nor does BE Express services.

Only BE services to smaller towns receive a subsidy.

monument wrote: »

And I find it hard to see how you think coaches are covering "fair share of the cost of roads"! If tomorrow we put all motor tax into fuel and everybody pays the same at the pumps, do you think buses would be paying the same?

Er, I don't get the point you are trying to make. If you do that, of course the coach will be paying the same as everyone else. Well strictly speaking they may pay a cent or two less on fuel as they may buy their own fuel in bulk and store it at depots, but they would pay the same amount of duty on the fuel. Free duty on fuel for buses was scrapped a few years ago.

popebenny16

lots of points to address since i posted.

a posted wanted to know what economic benefit the rail services provide. If IE went on strike tomorrow the GDA would sieze up. Whilst that poster may not know anyone who uses the train there are many thousands who do. Sadly, thanks to the Celtic Tiger, a large scale service is needed from all points inwards in a c shape from the Drogheda, Longford, Portlaoise, Kilkenny, Athy, Arklow. You could even add on Newry and Thurles.

Now, there is an interesting point in that. I wager (and this is not just me **** stirring) that the vast majority of that commuting public consists of Civil and Public Servants. Also, students. They are in effect paying IE money that they have been paid by the state, so it is a case of the state churning money around, in much the same way as free SW and OAP passes.

Now, given the sheer size of our public services this is not a big revelation, but it only struck me during last weeks adventures on the train when i noticed that there was a considerable drop in numbers now that the teachers have all gone on holidays. (i hope any teachers reading this dont go down the making papers/drawing up plans for next year road, thanks. when i was on a BOM for a primary school i could not contact any staff members for the whole two months of summer, and when i ground the headmaster into coming in after his second foreign holiday he glowered at me).

I dont know why i put that in brackets.

So, anyway, I am open to debate on the economic issues. That said, you block up your capital city and economic activity will be impacted on.

Outside of commuter issues, what of intercity services? I have posted a few times that with the current vogue for balanced budgets they will hvae to be used or (sorry) loosed.

To be fair to IE (and, belive me, i do not like being fair on IE), they have finally copped onto the fact that, like Ryanair, every seat much be made to generate money. Even if it is €10 - or less - it is better than an empty seat generating nothing. Hence the webfare promotions. Sadly, untill there are proper working TVMs in all stations I cannot see the webfares being used in your local one. At the end of the day, what is the difference between booking online and using a TVM??? Sod all. So, when you toddle into Thurles and seek to book a seat the TVM should automatically allow you to book any unbooked €10 seats first.

Small things like that go a long way.

Other point - how can Gobus/Citylink/Aircoach offer such low fares? I imagine that it is economies of scale. These companies have a smallish fleet and selected high patronage routes. I am sure that if you gave one of them a francise to run every bus in Munster their fares on the Dublin-other City route would shoot up. This raises another interesting point. Why shouldnt BE be split up into three or four francises and sold off? It will proabably happen anyway. Anyway, new operators can start from scratch, BE cannot have a year zero. That gives privateers a massive advantage. They can also pull out of a service overnight, see Ryanair in Cork, and leave the state operator to be the transporter of last resort.

Next point - forget the idea of spending billions on the railways. We dont have it and we will not be given it for them (unless it is DART underground/DART2) from Europe. There is no need, nor real demand for high-speed trains. There is a theory that the extra MPH you put on will=so many extra passengers. Perhaps, but the costs of those extra MPH may be uneconomic.

The question of the subsidy to the railways is very vexted, therefore. The elimination of the subsidy means running the service via the cashfare plus sponsership/advertising. The question of the fare price is interesting, it will have to be high enough to run the service but not so high as to discourage patronage. This will call for imagination, in fact I would recommend that IE gets someone form Ryanair in to inspire them, and pronto. If they can fill almost every seat, fares should reduce, and the argument on sidbsidy will be moot.

I do not see coaches taking masses of passengers away from intercity trains at the moment by the way. not while you can obtain cheap internet seats in the way they can right now.

dubhthach

monument wrote: »

It's not suprising that thatcherite-like views on rail would come into play when the motorway network was completed...



Lol -- NRA costs are nowhere near total road costs: even before getting to the large and very real costs of things like congestion, pollution health and environment costs, inactivate costs and road crash costs, you have the local authorty spending, Department of Transport spending, and more recently the NTA spending on roads. Planning, construction and on going costs.

Total tax take from Road users in period 2002-2007 = €28 billion or €4.6 billion a year. NRA and local authority road budget never exceed €1.8 billion in any of those years (if anything it was considerably lower for first couple of years). This covered all planning and construction costs.

The maintenance cost for 90,000km of roads is taken out of Local Authority fund. A major contributor to this fund is road tax. At no time did maintenance spend on the roads exceed 1/2rd of the Motor Tax revenue paid into it.

If you look at the RSA stats you see that total costs of road collisions have declined by 40.7% from 2005 to 2010. Dropping from €1.44 billion in 2005 to €853m in 2010. Even in the period 2005-2008 (before the recession really kicked in) the drop was on order of 16.67%, same time period number of deaths fell 29.55% (2005-2008)

So as an exercise lets look at the figures for 2005 for income/costs on road. If you can point to figures for 2002 for cost of road accidents (RSA site goes back to 2005) then we can do same analysis before property bubble really took off.

• Excise Duty on Fuel: €1,923 million
• Vat on Fuel: €414 million
• VRT on car sales: €1,149 million
• VAT on car sales: €559 million
• Car Tax (Local Government fund): €802 million

Total: €4,847 million (€4.847 billion)

Costs:

• Non-National Roads costs: €440.8 million (from Local Gov Fund)
• NRA state grant (DOT) -- maintenance: €53.39 million
• NRA state grant (DOT)-- Construction/planning: €1,263.63 million
• Cost of road accidents (RSA/Gardaí calculation): €1,440 million
• Garda Traffic Corp: €28million
• Safety Expenditure across Departments (DOT budget -- excluding Garda TC): €34.8 million

Total: €3,260.62 million (€3.26 billion)

Here is definition of "cost of Road Accidents" form RSA report on 2005:

Based on the costs outlined in the 2004 Goodbody Economic Consultants report entitled
‘Cost Benefit Parameters and Application Rules for Transport Project Appraisal’, the estimated cost of all fatal and injury road collisions reported to and recorded by An Garda Síochána in 2005 is €1.44 billion.

Going on the report above from Goodbody the costs are broken into the following subheadings:

• Lost Output -- Costs per Casualty (€)
• Human Costs -- Costs per Casualty (€)
• Medical -- Costs per Casualty (€)
• Property -- Cost per Accident (€)
• Insurance -- Cost per Accident (€)
• Policing -- Cost per Accident (€)

Overall the State income from Motorists exceed the state spend on roads by roughly €1.6 billion in 2005. This of course includes the cost of accidents (€1.44 billion) which aren't obviously factored into budgets but do affect the cost of medical, and policing budget as well as loss of output to the economy.

Either way the original post which you've taken out of context was in response to SteamEngine asking who pays for the money that is allocated to Roads. It's fairly evident that motorists do via the taxes imposed on them. If this makes me a Thatcherite, then I'm proud to say I'm a Thatcherite.

bk

popebenny16 wrote: »

a posted wanted to know what economic benefit the rail services provide. If IE went on strike tomorrow the GDA would sieze up. Whilst that poster may not know anyone who uses the train there are many thousands who do. Sadly, thanks to the Celtic Tiger, a large scale service is needed from all points inwards in a c shape from the Drogheda, Longford, Portlaoise, Kilkenny, Athy, Arklow. You could even add on Newry and Thurles.

Absolutely no one is suggesting we close down DART and commuter rail *. It is very clear that they are badly needed and that yes, Dublin would grind to a halt without them.

What we are mostly talking about is intercity rail and branch lines.

So lets do this exercise again. What would happen if intercity rail went on strike tomorrow? Would the country grind to a halt?

No, not at all, the majority of people would get between the cities by car. We would need more buses to serve the increased numbers, but it would be doable by contracting in extra bus companies, even at short notice.

* Well when the bridge on the northern line collapsed, buses were able to adequately cover the route. Friends of mine in Balbriggan told me that it was even faster by bus then by the commuter train!!

But I admit it would be much more difficult if all commuter train services were to close down. So I certainly wouldn't want to see that happen.

popebenny16 wrote: »

Other point - how can Gobus/Citylink/Aircoach offer such low fares? I imagine that it is economies of scale. These companies have a smallish fleet and selected high patronage routes. I am sure that if you gave one of them a francise to run every bus in Munster their fares on the Dublin-other City route would shoot up. This raises another interesting point.

Sure, they target the richest pickings. And I do agree there is a need to also service small towns, villages, etc. But rail is an awful expensive way to do that. I'm also of the opinion that BE is also way over bloated.

I believe that even these small towns and villages could be serviced by private operators with subsidies from the government and at a cost much lower then IR and BE's subsidies.

popebenny16 wrote: »

Why shouldnt BE be split up into three or four francises and sold off? It will proabably happen anyway. Anyway, new operators can start from scratch, BE cannot have a year zero. That gives privateers a massive advantage.

BE also has some massive advantages over the private operators. It has bus stations and repair depots bought for and paid for by the government. It has buses bought for it by the government.

It also has a massive economy of scale, with a very large IT and marketing departments and budgets which are at least partly subsisdised by the government. They can also use this economy of scale to get cheaper prices on parts, fuel, equipment, etc.

popebenny16 wrote: »

They can also pull out of a service overnight, see Ryanair in Cork, and leave the state operator to be the transporter of last resort.

Well they wouldn't do that if it was profitable. Ryanair's route was never profitable, it was designed to kill off any competition from AerLingus and AerArann. It succeed in it's aim.

If the route isn't profitable then the license can be given to another operator to try and run it. If there are no takers, then the government can partly subsidise the route in conjunction with a private operator.

popebenny16 wrote: »

The question of the subsidy to the railways is very vexted, therefore. The elimination of the subsidy means running the service via the cashfare plus sponsership/advertising. The question of the fare price is interesting, it will have to be high enough to run the service but not so high as to discourage patronage. This will call for imagination, in fact I would recommend that IE gets someone form Ryanair in to inspire them, and pronto. If they can fill almost every seat, fares should reduce, and the argument on sidbsidy will be moot.

Yes, interesting times ahead for IR. Likely a great deal of cost cutting to allow them to drop fares while having much less subsidy.

popebenny16 wrote: »

I do not see coaches taking masses of passengers away from intercity trains at the moment by the way. not while you can obtain cheap internet seats in the way they can right now.

It already has, on the Galway route the train lost almost 50% of it's passengers with the introduction of the CityLink and GoBus services.

I see no reason why the same won't happen in Cork and Limerick. But it will take a year or two for us to see the figures. I'm sure IR will know.

I know anecdotally as a Corkonian living in Dublin, I have already made the switch, as have most of my family and friends.

Last week, my mother took the Aircoach direct to the airport, despite being an OAP and having the free travel pass!!

Yes the train at €40 isn't as bad, but it is still €18 more. It is cheaper again when you factor in the cost of getting to and from Hueston. Also the bus is faster getting to O'Connell St and much more convenient.

The bus is also much more flexible, I can get a bus for €22 at almost any time morning or night, including 3am in the morning after the nightclub in Cork

The walk up fare of the bus is €22 versus €80 for the train. The €40 train fare only works if you plan ahead and book 3 days in advance. With the bus I can get a call from a friend in Cork telling me of a party tonight in Cork and jump on a bus for just €22.

I can then come back any time I like. Non of this bs with Irish Rail where you can only come back on the train you booked and have to pay more if you decide to change.

To be honest with you the cheapness and flexibility of the bus is amazing and liberating. It is the best thing to come to public transport for the people of Cork in years.

bk

Actually thinking about it further, I think we will see Irish Rail become more like the rail service in Holland.

IR have tried the whole, airline style online booking system and to be honest, the inflexibiltiy of it just doesn't work when you are competing with the very flexible bus coach services.

I think that the rail service will have to become much more less a bus service, like it is in Holland.

In Holland, the max price is just €20 per way. You can buy the ticket online, but most people don't, you just walk up to the station and buy the ticket.

People normally don't bother to buy a return as it is the same price as two singles, so they normally just buy the return ticket as a single whenever they need it.

Booked seats are only in first class, but that isn't an issue as they are never that busy. Irish Rail are also unlikely to be that busy anymore with all the new competition.

So simplify it. Scrap seat bookings and all the complexity and complaints that goes with it, it isn't working anyway. Make the walk up fare to Cork €20 per direction.

This will make train travel much more flexible and competitive with the new bus coach services.

foggy_lad

Is first class really worth the cost of providing it for a handful of privilaged passengers who add nothing to the company? Ordinary passengers are subsidising first class services so they should be axed to reduce ticket prices for the majority! Who in fairness needs a cooked airline type meal on a 3 hour train journey and why should everyone else have to pay for providing that service?

corktina

Yep, either have full booking or none at all, the current system is a recipe for strife.

Flat fare as said, first come first served for the seats, get rid of first class (its only used by Politicians and senior Civil Service types anyway I reckon).

Recast the timetable, there arent many advantages to clockface services anyway and for maximum effeicency a Limited stop service should be followed by a stopper which will connect with the following fast at some intermedaite point.