Does rail transport have a future in Ireland?

dowlingm

"trains aren't enough like a bus"
... and then ...
"trains are too similar to buses, so let's scrap the trains as we can just run buses instead"

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

"trains aren't enough like a bus"
... and then ...
"trains are too similar to buses, so let's scrap the trains as we can just run buses instead"

So your saying Irish Rail would be better to continue acting like they have, offering an expensive, slow and inflexible service.

So what is your suggestion, run trains like they did in the 19th century, with branch lines going everywhere and fine 5 course meals in first class?

The reality is times change and peoples needs have changed. People today just want to get from a to b in the most cost effective and fastest way possible.

Most people don't have the romantic old vision of rail like some people on this forum have. Most people see rail as just a metal box on wheels to get them where they want to go. Not much different then the metal box they fly in the sky or the metal box they drive on the road. Most of the old romanticism people had in the past about rail and flying is now gone. Now they are just a means to an end.

There really isn't any demand for first class service anymore. People now expect a generally high level of service for all passengers, with clean, comfortable, quiet trains, planes and buses that simply get them to where they want to go as fast as possible and as cheaply as possible.

The reality is the quality of standard class on trains has increased immensely and is today probably just as high as first class was in the past, except for the food.

There is little benefit or need for people to travel first class anymore. Specially in these hard economic times, even business people are watching their budgets and can't really justify the extra expense. The really top business people get ferried around in comfortable limos on the motorways or even by helicopter anyway. The train holds little attraction to them.

No, if rail wants to survive, it needs to walk a fine line. It needs to cut out frivolous expenses like first class, while improving the quality and service in standard class, its bread and butter. With things like free wifi and power at every seat and improved quality of catering where it makes sense.

But most importantly it needs to get people to their destination faster, cheaper and more flexibly then it currently does.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

So your saying Irish Rail would be better to continue acting like they have, offering an expensive, slow and inflexible service.

did anyone suggest such a thing? oh wait emmmmmmm, no.

bk wrote: »

So what is your suggestion, run trains like they did in the 19th century, with branch lines going everywhere

yes.

bk wrote: »

fine 5 course meals in first class?

first class should be abolished, but yes food should be provided at a reasonable rate in what was the standard class, it doesn't have to be hot food but it should be considered at least.

bk wrote: »

The reality is times change and peoples needs have changed. People today just want to get from a to b in the most cost effective and fastest way possible.

that could be rail with vision and investment, not going to happen now but during the good times, we had enough money to do motor ways and rail.

bk wrote: »

Most people don't have the romantic old vision of rail like some people on this forum have.

what? because we don't wish to see the rail network closed down we have a romantic old vision of rail? no we believe it could be a viable method of public transport with some vision and again during the good times proper investment.

bk wrote: »

Most people see rail as just a metal box on wheels to get them where they want to go. Not much different then the metal box they fly in the sky or the metal box they drive on the road.

you don't say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bk wrote: »

Most of the old romanticism people had in the past about rail and flying is now gone. Now they are just a means to an end.

ah no!!!!!!!!! you can't be serious surely? ah jaysus thats terrible ted, where did it go?

bk wrote: »

There really isn't any demand for first class service anymore. People now expect a generally high level of service for all passengers, with clean, comfortable, quiet trains, planes and buses that simply get them to where they want to go as fast as possible and as cheaply as possible.

absolutely right, that means IE having some vision though.

bk wrote: »

The reality is the quality of standard class on trains has increased immensely and is today probably just as high as first class was in the past, except for the food.

i agree.

bk wrote: »

There is little benefit or need for people to travel first class anymore. Specially in these hard economic times, even business people are watching their budgets and can't really justify the extra expense.

agree.

bk wrote: »

if rail wants to survive, it needs to walk a fine line. It needs to cut out frivolous expenses like first class, while improving the quality and service in standard class, its bread and butter. With things like free wifi and power at every seat and improved quality of catering where it makes sense.

agree with that also, you see, we agree on more then you think.

steamengine

I think whatever about the future of rail in Ireland there is no future for it on this thread. Just a relentless banging of the same old air coach anti-rail drum. Steamo is outta here - but thanks anyway !!!

bk

end of the road wrote: »

first class should be abolished, but yes food should be provided at a reasonable rate in what was the standard class, it doesn't have to be hot food but it should be considered at least.

I agree and I think basic hot food could be done. For instance I was recently on the magnificent Oslo to Bergen line. They served basic hot food, hot dogs, pizzas, burgers. They were just cooked in a microwave. Nothing special, but welcome on a 5 hour journey. But most importantly the cooking area was actually smaller then the ones on Irish Rail!!

You could go even further and have nicer, airline style hot meals and top of the usual heated panni's, etc.

This is one of the few advantages rail has over bus coach. It doesn't appeal to me, I rather get to Cork fast and have a far nicer meal with my friends, but it is a selling point and it needs to make proper use of it.

Either do it properly or not at all.

steamengine wrote: »

I think whatever about the future of rail in Ireland there is no future for it on this thread. Just a relentless banging of the same old air coach anti-rail drum. Steamo is outta here - but thanks anyway !!!

I think that is unfair, I have remained open minded and have even given ideas on how rail might survive and prosper. I think this has been a very useful and interesting thread.

If Irish Rail take this position and stick their heads in the stand, intercity rail will be dead and gone.

I know I've said it before but I'll say it again. I just find buses way too uncomfortable. They're the only method of travel that trigger motion sickness in me so I avoid them like the plague where possible. So I'd hate to see the railways close for that reason alone - never mind the enthusiast bit.

One thing I always wondered though. If we electrified some lines, where would we get the electricity to run them?

monument

bk wrote: »

A very detailed post with direct facts from budgets a few posts up show that motor tax and duty on fuel more then pays for all the costs of all roads in Ireland.

If you believe otherwise please give some facts and evidence to back up you assertion.

I did give facts - the fact that there are costs that s/he did not include.

If you want me to go into academic thesis level of detail of research -- then no, I don't have the time and likely am ill qualified to confirm or find / work out many of the costs. I'd be happy to try to remember to bookmark research I come across in this area, but this method may take some time.

The main point is not that roads should not be built or kept open, but that with roads many costs are off the balance sheet, while rail has far more costs on the balance sheet / does not have some of the cost or has less impacts (ie on the environment).

bk wrote: »

I have already switched from train to bus as have most of my Corkonian friends (€22 versus €80 and quicker by bus, no brainer).

I readily admit Dublin to Mayo by bus would be painful. But you took one of the most painful possible journeys there. Dublin to Cork, Limerick, Galway, Belfast can all now be taken faster and much cheaper on lovely comfortable bus coaches and these routes make up the vast majority of commuters on IR's intercity network.

Do many people actually pay at the €80 level?

And the "lovely comfortable bus coaches" is subjective (just as rail comfort can be subjective).

bk wrote: »

It was actually a safer option then what Irish Rail offers. Even BE and Aircoach have baby seat compatible three point harness on their seats. So again safer then rail. Completely possible to bring a baby onboard the train.

It looks like the railway buffs were at this so I take it we can at least half trust it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents ... I'm actually guessing there's been more injuries that that since 1983 but it only tracks "accidents with one or more train occupant fatalities."

Now I'm giving away my age here, if I was a few weeks younger (ie born after rather than just before what happened at Cherryville Junction), then there would only be one death on the railways in my lifetime to date?!

Rail safety isn't perfect and there are apparently some major flaws with inspections and record keeping, but rail safety in general has moved on since my birth year and trains (or more so carriages) are now of a better build. If rail-like safety standards were applied to our roads, motoring would be a good deal more expensive or, at the very least, there'd be a lot more speed restrictions (ie many enforced 30km/h, 40km/h zones and changes in limits depending the actual road design and condition).

Two stories re rail safety vs general road safety:

On one side you've got Dublin City Council and the NTA repaving something like 24km of Dublin's roads and they use the old cycle lane designs rather than using the new cycle manual and the standards it sets (they say because the manual was not yet legally in place!). Complain about a cycle lane flaw and you're lucky if it'll be fixed in many months or years.

On the other side, complain to the Railway Safety Commission about a cycle lane sign which is creating a blind spot at a Luas crossing point and get it fixed in about seven days -- see here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056405288&page=2

dubhthach wrote: »

Total tax take from Road users in period 2002-2007 = €28 billion or €4.6 billion a year. NRA and local authority road budget never exceed €1.8 billion in any of those years (if anything it was considerably lower for first couple of years). This covered all planning and construction costs.

The maintenance cost for 90,000km of roads is taken out of Local Authority fund. A major contributor to this fund is road tax. At no time did maintenance spend on the roads exceed 1/2rd of the Motor Tax revenue paid into it.

If you look at the RSA stats you see that total costs of road collisions have declined by 40.7% from 2005 to 2010. Dropping from €1.44 billion in 2005 to €853m in 2010. Even in the period 2005-2008 (before the recession really kicked in) the drop was on order of 16.67%, same time period number of deaths fell 29.55% (2005-2008)

So as an exercise lets look at the figures for 2005 for income/costs on road. If you can point to figures for 2002 for cost of road accidents (RSA site goes back to 2005) then we can do same analysis before property bubble really took off.

• Excise Duty on Fuel: €1,923 million
• Vat on Fuel: €414 million
• VRT on car sales: €1,149 million
• VAT on car sales: €559 million
• Car Tax (Local Government fund): €802 million

Total: €4,847 million (€4.847 billion)

Costs:

• Non-National Roads costs: €440.8 million (from Local Gov Fund)
• NRA state grant (DOT) -- maintenance: €53.39 million
• NRA state grant (DOT)-- Construction/planning: €1,263.63 million
• Cost of road accidents (RSA/Gardaí calculation): €1,440 million
• Garda Traffic Corp: €28million
• Safety Expenditure across Departments (DOT budget -- excluding Garda TC): €34.8 million

Total: €3,260.62 million (€3.26 billion)

Here is definition of "cost of Road Accidents" form RSA report on 2005:



Going on the report above from Goodbody the costs are broken into the following subheadings:

• Lost Output -- Costs per Casualty (€)
• Human Costs -- Costs per Casualty (€)
• Medical -- Costs per Casualty (€)
• Property -- Cost per Accident (€)
• Insurance -- Cost per Accident (€)
• Policing -- Cost per Accident (€)

Overall the State income from Motorists exceed the state spend on roads by roughly €1.6 billion in 2005. This of course includes the cost of accidents (€1.44 billion) which aren't obviously factored into budgets but do affect the cost of medical, and policing budget as well as loss of output to the economy.

Either way the original post which you've taken out of context was in response to SteamEngine asking who pays for the money that is allocated to Roads. It's fairly evident that motorists do via the taxes imposed on them. If this makes me a Thatcherite, then I'm proud to say I'm a Thatcherite.

That's a lot of detail and you still have not covered many of the costs factors I've listed. For example, IBM estmated the cost of congestion for Dublin alone is a few billion a year. Also, the HSE have recenly came out with a report showning that the RSA / Garda stats are a massive underestimation of the level of injuries real problem.

The health costs related to inactivity and pollution are mounting.

It's telling that the NRA etc don't care about theses off the book costs.

monument

bk wrote: »

Actually thinking about it further, I think we will see Irish Rail become more like the rail service in Holland.

IR have tried the whole, airline style online booking system and to be honest, the inflexibiltiy of it just doesn't work when you are competing with the very flexible bus coach services.

I think that the rail service will have to become much more less a bus service, like it is in Holland.

In Holland, the max price is just €20 per way. You can buy the ticket online, but most people don't, you just walk up to the station and buy the ticket.

People normally don't bother to buy a return as it is the same price as two singles, so they normally just buy the return ticket as a single whenever they need it.

Booked seats are only in first class, but that isn't an issue as they are never that busy. Irish Rail are also unlikely to be that busy anymore with all the new competition.

So simplify it. Scrap seat bookings and all the complexity and complaints that goes with it, it isn't working anyway. Make the walk up fare to Cork €20 per direction.

This will make train travel much more flexible and competitive with the new bus coach services.

The problem it is Ireland and not the Netherlands. On distance our rail routes are more like their international routes (only distance, not the speed or level of service etc) -- and their international routes booking is needed or recommended.

They also have high frequency (least four trains between major cities and at least two per hour between the rest) and capacity which makes it easier to run non-booking services (trains don't often run full and if a train is full the next one is not likely to be).

In the Netherlands, you're not only dealing with the price of shorter distances but a system built around most people living walking and cycling distances to stations and a roads system that makes cycling those trips attractive (around 40% of all rail users cycle to stations). Anyway, if Ireland was the Netherlands we'd be cutting urban buses and giving over road space to cycling.

bk

monument wrote: »

I did give facts - the fact that there are costs that s/he did not include.

If you want me to go into academic thesis level of detail of research -- then no, I don't have the time and likely am ill qualified to confirm or find / work out many of the costs. I'd be happy to try to remember to bookmark research I come across in this area, but this method may take some time.

I'm sorry, but your argument looks very weak when you start talking about hidden costs and can't given any actual facts or figures to back up your statements. Two very detailed posts have now been given and you simply have no figures to refute it.

monument wrote: »

The main point is not that roads should not be built or kept open, but that with roads many costs are off the balance sheet, while rail has far more costs on the balance sheet / does not have some of the cost or has less impacts (ie on the environment).

For instance you have just kicked out here environmental costs, which we are supposed to automatically assume is better then rail?

But if you examine it, it isn't. Bus coaches use less diesel and produce less CO2 then diesel trains. So bus coaches are better for the environment then diesel trains.

Yes electric powered trains are more environmentally friendly, but we don't have those on intercity lines here in Ireland so irrelevant.

Also there is the point that pull are more likely to move from the car to the bus at €22, then they are to the train at €80.

monument wrote: »

Do many people actually pay at the €80 level?

Yup most do, I did every month for the past 10 years (well €80 or it's equivalent over that period, certainly €70 or more over the last 5 years).

So you can understand why I'm now over the moon to be paying just a quarter of that for the same service on Aircoach. It isn't just theory for me, it is real money in my pocket.

Remember the €40 fare if you book more then 3 days in advance only came in 3 months ago, literally one week after the launch of the new Aircoach service to Cork!

Before that you had the airline style system with €10 fares, but you needed to book more then 3 weeks in advance and there was always only a very small number of such tickets.

The new system is a bit better, but still not as flexible as strolling up to the bus and paying €22.

monument wrote: »

And the "lovely comfortable bus coaches" is subjective (just as rail comfort can be subjective).

Sure, but I was pleasantly surprised when I first used such a service a year ago to Galway and now to Cork. Before then I had the same opinion as many people here that bus would be uncomfortable, but what I found was the complete. I really wonder when people say that rail is more comfortable, have they ever actually used one of these new coach services on a nice smooth motorway or they just basing it on old prejudices, like I once did.

monument wrote: »

It looks like the railway buffs were at this so I take it we can at least half trust it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents ... I'm actually guessing there's been more injuries that that since 1983 but it only tracks "accidents with one or more train occupant fatalities."

And in the same period, how many fatal accidents have there been on bus coaches? Non that I can think of, not in Ireland. That is impressive when you consider BE carry 3 times as many passengers as IR.

Also the bridge collapse on the Northern line last year came very close to multiple deaths had the driver not spotted it and stopped the train in time.

But the reality is, both coach and train have excellent safety records.

monument wrote: »

That's a lot of detail and you still have not covered many of the costs factors I've listed. For example, IBM estmated the cost of congestion for Dublin alone is a few billion a year.

Irrelevant, again no one is arguing the need for Drat, commuter rail and LUAS, they are absolutely vital. We are talking about intercity rail here and branch lines. Neither which are effected by congestion.

monument wrote: »

The health costs related to inactivity and pollution are mounting.

And how exactly does rail help with inactivity? Walking or cycling helps you be healthier, sitting on a train doesn't.

Also again, a diesel train is more polluting then a bus coach.

bk

monument wrote: »

The problem it is Ireland and not the Netherlands. On distance our rail routes are more like their international routes (only distance, not the speed or level of service etc) -- and their international routes booking is needed or recommended.

They also have high frequency (least four trains between major cities and at least two per hour between the rest) and capacity which makes it easier to run non-booking services (trains don't often run full and if a train is full the next one is not likely to be).

The thing is, the trains are already much quieter. Up till about 3 years ago, the 5pm to Cork on a Friday would be jammed with people standing everywhere. It has become noticeably much quieter since then, with their being empty seats most of the time on this service and certainly no need to book online (I never did bother booking a seat and rarely had an issue).

I assume the big, noticeable drop in numbers was due to people switching to car. With the new Aircoach service, improved BE service and likely entry of GoBus, I expect an even bigger drop in passenger numbers.

If there are empty seats on the Friday 5pm to Cork train, then we are already at the point where booking seats are irrelevant.

The whole booking seats thing is rather new anyway, doesn't work very well and doesn't seem to be very popular.

monument wrote: »

In the Netherlands, you're not only dealing with the price of shorter distances but a system built around most people living walking and cycling distances to stations and a roads system that makes cycling those trips attractive (around 40% of all rail users cycle to stations). Anyway, if Ireland was the Netherlands we'd be cutting urban buses and giving over road space to cycling.

I know, I would love it

However just to point out, they never cut urban bus services, they just decided to increase investment in bikes (at the expense of cars) rather then invest even more in public transport.

They still have a fantastic public transport system, with frequent buses, trams and a metro.

In many ways I think we have arrived at the same point, where we have to decide to put a massive investment in public transport or a more modest investment in cycling.

One good outcome of the recession is that I think we are being forced into the latter.

foggy_lad

monument wrote: »

The problem it is Ireland and not the Netherlands. On distance our rail routes are more like their international routes (only distance, not the speed or level of service etc) -- and their international routes booking is needed or recommended.

They also have high frequency (least four trains between major cities and at least two per hour between the rest) and capacity which makes it easier to run non-booking services (trains don't often run full and if a train is full the next one is not likely to be).

In the Netherlands, you're not only dealing with the price of shorter distances but a system built around most people living walking and cycling distances to stations and a roads system that makes cycling those trips attractive (around 40% of all rail users cycle to stations). Anyway, if Ireland was the Netherlands we'd be cutting urban buses and giving over road space to cycling.

How are Irish Rail going to serve the majority of people who live miles from their nearest station? many stations have small numbers of morning and evening commuters and nothing else going for them apart from student traffic on a Sunday night, but even the students and their parents are getting wise to the huge difference in value for money between the buses and the railway!

Then there is Heuston station and the myth that it actually serves Dublin City, it serves Goldenbridge, Islandbridge, the pheonix park and all the gentry who lived in that area in by-gone days as well as looking after the office workers of Guinness's.

It is two miles from the City Centre which makes all trains departing or terminating in Heuston Station both SLOW and Expensive because of the added time as well as bus/luas add on or the cost of a taxi into Dublin, You failed to add such expenses and extra time into your figures for Irish Rail. The fastest train from Cork(non-stop and with the road cleared for it) may get to Heuston in 2 hours 30 minutes but passengers wont get to the city in less than 2 hours 45 minutes!


What also has to be considered is the miserable state of most of the rail network and buildings, on a recent trip to Galway I was very surprised at the speed limit on the bridge on the way into Ceannt station, it felt a lot slower than even the Barrow bridge, Is that bridge safe considering that a train going any faster would shake it to bits probably killing anyone on board? There are dozens of other parts of the network with similar restrictions due to the tracks or trackbed or bridges being dangerous but Irish Rail keeps using them because they cant afford to fix them even with all their subvention and all the government monies they have got through the years! Places like Kildare station are unsafe and only the grace of God has stopped lumps of masonary from killing passengers waiting on the platforms.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

What also has to be considered is the miserable state of most of the rail network and buildings, on a recent trip to Galway I was very surprised at the speed limit on the bridge on the way into Ceannt station, it felt a lot slower than even the Barrow bridge, Is that bridge safe considering that a train going any faster would shake it to bits probably killing anyone on board? There are dozens of other parts of the network with similar restrictions due to the tracks or trackbed or bridges being dangerous but Irish Rail keeps using them because they cant afford to fix them even with all their subvention and all the government monies they have got through the years! Places like Kildare station are unsafe and only the grace of God has stopped lumps of masonary from killing passengers waiting on the platforms.

absolutely agree, but thats to do with miss management by IE.

corktina

foggy_lad wrote: »

[/B]


It is two miles from the City Centre which makes all trains departing or terminating in Heuston Station both SLOW and Expensive because of the added time as well as bus/luas add on or the cost of a taxi into Dublin, You failed to add such expenses and extra time into your figures for Irish Rail. The fastest train from Cork(non-stop and with the road cleared for it) may get to Heuston in 2 hours 30 minutes but passengers wont get to the city in less than 2 hours 45 minutes!


.

you wont even be on the Luas in 2h45m Foggy....the total journey time would top the 3 hours by quite a few minutes i think

Sam Kade

corktina wrote: »

I beleive Irish Rail operate in MPH.

My car journey to, lets say. Dublin would be far quicker than the train and I'm talking about the Cork line here. I don't have a bus alternative.

Air bus goes from Cork city to Dublin city for €22 return. There is also a bus from Mitchlestown to Dublin city for €15 return.

Sam Kade

Irish and Proud wrote: »

I've used the train to Cork a few times and there are pros and cons compared with car travel IMO:

Pros:

1) Fast and relaxing (scenic) journey - cuts out the stress of driving and wallops the bus in terms of speed;

2) Good rail link between Heuston and Connolly (Red Line);

3) Food and toilets available without the need to stop off - also available at main stations; Surely you can stay hungry for a 2.5 hour journey. As for the toilet don't drink too much liquid before you start your journey.

4) You don't have to worry about parking upon arrival.

Cons:

1) Not as fast or direct as driving by car;

2) Baggage can be a source of major discomfort upon interchanging or walking;

3) Less opportunity to visit places of interest along the way or around destination;

4) Have to walk to reach Cork City Centre. Cork city center is only a short walk from the train station

Even:

1) Price - €70 would cover a return trip for both modes IMO;

2) Constant speed restrictions on Cork Line, but Cork Road is prone to accidents, works and diversions;

3) Both journeys are scenic but - have to concentrate on driving / may not get a window seat on train;

4) Motoring is faster, but getting into town is still via congested substandard roads - Rail terminates at one point regardless of where people need to go.

If anyone has anything to add...

.

dubhthach

monument wrote: »

I did give facts - the fact that there are costs that s/he did not include.

If you want me to go into academic thesis level of detail of research -- then no, I don't have the time and likely am ill qualified to confirm or find / work out many of the costs. I'd be happy to try to remember to bookmark research I come across in this area, but this method may take some time.

The main point is not that roads should not be built or kept open, but that with roads many costs are off the balance sheet, while rail has far more costs on the balance sheet / does not have some of the cost or has less impacts (ie on the environment).




Do many people actually pay at the €80 level?

And the "lovely comfortable bus coaches" is subjective (just as rail comfort can be subjective).



It looks like the railway buffs were at this so I take it we can at least half trust it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents ... I'm actually guessing there's been more injuries that that since 1983 but it only tracks "accidents with one or more train occupant fatalities."

Now I'm giving away my age here, if I was a few weeks younger (ie born after rather than just before what happened at Cherryville Junction), then there would only be one death on the railways in my lifetime to date?!

Rail safety isn't perfect and there are apparently some major flaws with inspections and record keeping, but rail safety in general has moved on since my birth year and trains (or more so carriages) are now of a better build. If rail-like safety standards were applied to our roads, motoring would be a good deal more expensive or, at the very least, there'd be a lot more speed restrictions (ie many enforced 30km/h, 40km/h zones and changes in limits depending the actual road design and condition).

Two stories re rail safety vs general road safety:

On one side you've got Dublin City Council and the NTA repaving something like 24km of Dublin's roads and they use the old cycle lane designs rather than using the new cycle manual and the standards it sets (they say because the manual was not yet legally in place!). Complain about a cycle lane flaw and you're lucky if it'll be fixed in many months or years.

On the other side, complain to the Railway Safety Commission about a cycle lane sign which is creating a blind spot at a Luas crossing point and get it fixed in about seven days -- see here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056405288&page=2




That's a lot of detail and you still have not covered many of the costs factors I've listed. For example, IBM estmated the cost of congestion for Dublin alone is a few billion a year. Also, the HSE have recenly came out with a report showning that the RSA / Garda stats are a massive underestimation of the level of injuries real problem.

The health costs related to inactivity and pollution are mounting.

It's telling that the NRA etc don't care about theses off the book costs.

I covered the following which were in your posts

• Department of Transport including NTA/RSA funding + NRA grant
• Planning/Design/Construction + Maintenance of National roads
• Local authority spending on road maintenance (non-national)

I also provide detail on accident costs, based on what the Gardaí and RSA are saying. Now you are saying the HSE is claiming this is understimated. Can you clarify how much of an underestimate they are proposing it is? In which case I'll happily redo the calculation.

As for the IBM study I recall it when it came out, they were also in the process of trying to pimp their Smarter City initiative to the Government. Given the mint they made when it came to the failed PPARS system (HSE) that's hardly surprising. Anyone who works in IT knows what IBM (Big Blue) is like.

I do recall though that the DTO did have a study that had congestion in Dublin at £500million (yeah punts -- old study). Of course that's why projects such as Dart Underground (Dart to Maynooth, Dart on Kildare line) Metro North, Luas BXD and Quad tracking of line as far as Kildare would help (which by the way I fully support). All of which would be considerably better spent money then wasting €4billion on TGV line from Cork to Dublin as some here have proposed.

That and I fully support the likes of Greenways, for example if one looks at OSI aerial photos (2005) you can see that most of the trackbed of the old MG&WR survives from north of Mullingar to Cavan town. Likewise most of the old trackbed for the GNR Cavan to Monaghan line survives. It wouldn't be that hard to build a functional greenway from Athlone to Monaghan using old railway trackbed (Athlone <-> Mullingar branch) and putting section of Greenway beside the current Railway line until you reach the old "Inny Junction" and where the Cavan branch use to branch off.

Netherlands is a great country I've been there several times and I've travel by rail etc. The first time I went to the office in Fryslan I decided I'd get the train. Next time they told me to call and they would pay for Taxi to travel the 1hour 33 minutes from Schipol. (Train requires changes -- takes considerably longer). Either way there are 17million people living in an area the size of Munster and Leinster combined. Munster and Leinster only have a population of 3.7million in comparison

popebenny16

bk wrote: »

Actually thinking about it further, I think we will see Irish Rail become more like the rail service in Holland.

IR have tried the whole, airline style online booking system and to be honest, the inflexibiltiy of it just doesn't work when you are competing with the very flexible bus coach services.

I think that the rail service will have to become much more less a bus service, like it is in Holland.

In Holland, the max price is just €20 per way. You can buy the ticket online, but most people don't, you just walk up to the station and buy the ticket.

People normally don't bother to buy a return as it is the same price as two singles, so they normally just buy the return ticket as a single whenever they need it.

Booked seats are only in first class, but that isn't an issue as they are never that busy. Irish Rail are also unlikely to be that busy anymore with all the new competition.

So simplify it. Scrap seat bookings and all the complexity and complaints that goes with it, it isn't working anyway. Make the walk up fare to Cork €20 per direction.

This will make train travel much more flexible and competitive with the new bus coach services.

there has to be an economic level to the cost, so it may not be possible to do every seat from cork at €20, but the idea is sound.

in relation to what you said earlier about the effect that bus services from Galway are having on that train service, I honestly cant agree or disagree, but I imagine, as you say, that IE will be trying to do surveys on it. Then again, being IE, maybe they wont.

Simplify, simplify, simplify, will have to be the motto of IE, be it timetables, fares, usage of assets, usage of human resources.

yew_tree

corktina wrote: »

Rail has a great future as shown in the UK and on the Continent etc, but no, not a very rosy picture in Ireland, thast because of the years of under-investment and lazy management which sees us around 40 or more behind the UK from a position of actaully modernising a decade before them.

What do i think should be done? Well keep all the suburban stuff is a given as it is useful even if it doesnt make a profit, and invest in Cork,Limerick,Galway and Belfast to Dublin by upgrading to 125mph minimum. Other lines can be closed or kept on a secondary level so long as major investment isnt needed.

Should check you facts - Why would Irish rail close the Westport Line - One of their most profitable routes for the amount of trains they provide

corktina

Sam Kade wrote: »

Air bus goes from Cork city to Dublin city for €22 return. There is also a bus from Mitchlestown to Dublin city for €15 return.

Im 45 minutes from the city and more from Mitchelstown. Bus is not an option for me.

corktina

yew_tree wrote: »

Should check you facts - Why would Irish rail close the Westport Line - One of their most profitable routes for the amount of trains they provide

"or kept on a secondary level..." etc. read the post....

In any case, that may (or may not, you quote no figures) be the case but it may not always be with increasing car and bus competition. We are discussing the future of Rail in Ireland.

bk

popebenny16 wrote: »

there has to be an economic level to the cost, so it may not be possible to do every seat from cork at €20, but the idea is sound.

Yes, IR faces a difficult future.

- Reduced subsidies.
- Falling passenger numbers due to competition from car and bus
- Reduced ticket prices in order to remain competitive with car and bus.

All of this manes a big drop in IR's income. The only option IR has is to reduce costs. I just hope they manage to find ways to maintain the current level of services (or close to it) while reducing these costs (e.g. lots of automation).

antoobrien

popebenny16 wrote: »

in relation to what you said earlier about the effect that bus services from Galway are having on that train service

I can honestly say that the bus services between Dublin & Galway have made it much better. On the bus €20 gets you a seat for a return journey, all you have to do is show up 15 minutes before departure. Also GoBus will stop at Heuston or O'Connell St - a big advantage over having to get the 90 or Laus to go to Buses or Connolly (dart).

With IE they charge you (€6 the last time I used it) to book a seat - no guarantees that you'll actually get it (had people tell me where to go once or twice). The fee changing depending on when you're travelling is a bit of a pain - a €10 fare on a Wednesday morning is f**k all good to me because I have to be at work Monday-Friday.

The 40+ charge for travelling on a friday is a bit rich. If I have luggage (e.g. golf bag) taxi fare to and from the station makes it a no-brainer to take the car - even with current petrol prices & tolls.

Then there's the hassle & cost of getting to and from the various train stations.

All in all, the train is not really a realistic option at its current pricing and convenience unless you're bringing a small child.

Winters

My travel patterns come down to whatever is easiest. I get the DART to work because im 10 mins walk to the station and then 5 mins walk to work and I dont drive during the week because I dont need to.

In the last few months alone I have been to the following locations: Kinsale, Killaloe, Courttown, Carlingford, Bantry, Greencastle and Dunlavin. I drove to each destination because I had to - because it was quicker, because it was a lot easier (passengers, luggage etc.), more direct and more flexible than train or bus. Cost didn't really come into it but I would imagine it was the most cost effective option too.

Sadly I can't see rail in this country having any future growth with the exception of commuting in urban areas. I wish it was the other way though.

end of the road

we need to get the following done as a priority. dart underground, the killdare dart done, and if possible extend the quad tracking to killdare. we need to try relieve congestion through connolly and on the northern line, get the dublin cork and bellfast lines up to a good speed that will be competitive with or faster then the motor ways. the galway westport rosslare and waterford lines will need to be sped up as much as possible in the future. do i think it will happen? no, but it should, or even better it should have happend all ready.
of course if the government were any way right during the good times all of this would have been done as well as the motor ways but they decided to prioritize them over rail probably for their state cars rather then the general public.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

of course if the government were any way right during the good times all of this would have been done as well as the motor ways but they decided to prioritize them over rail probably for their state cars rather then the general public.

Or alternatively Irish Rail were too busy playing at being property developers and did the minimum possible to maintain safety standards and didn't push the government for money for more imaginative projects like you mentioned.

It was noticeable how much PR and marketing the RPA did of LUAS and Metro North in the press during the good years, while IR was always very quiet about their projects.

Everyone knew what Metro North was and many in the public wanted it and asked their local politicians about it. Very few people have ever heard of Dart Underground.

I blame IR for this. The RPA got a lot built in that time. What did IR achieve?

Yes IR did a lot too, new trains, clock face schedules, safety upgrades, signalling around Dublin, DART platform lengthening. All important stuff, but relatively small fry compared to what the RPA achieved and what IR should have been pushing for.

Sam Kade

corktina wrote: »

Im 45 minutes from the city and more from Mitchelstown. Bus is not an option for me.

You did mention that you have a car, what's stopping you driving to the bus or getting someone to drop you to the bus if parking is too dear

DarkDusk

I'll start the redstone circuits.










lol

corktina

Sam Kade wrote: »

You did mention that you have a car, what's stopping you driving to the bus or getting someone to drop you to the bus if parking is too dear

are you kidding me? once Im in the car for 45 minutes, I may as well stay in it....

gleesoneoin

excellent article here about Railway finance worldwide, a must-read for all us railway supporters.
It shows that outside of big cities and large population centres, railway mainly run at a loss, i.e. are not profitable.

But here is Ireland's biggest hope for railway success I would say: in Ireland from 2014 onwards, (if I'm not mistaken - this is what West-on-Track told me previously) other rail companies are legally entitled to enter the commercial rail market in Ireland. What local and regional Organisations could theoretically do is tender to foreign railway operators to come here and lay down tracks and run services here, as a minor part of their overall business, as it remains to be seen if that route is potentially profitable or not.
Anyway here is the article, enjoy

http://www.railway-technical.com/finance.shtml

flazio

gleesoneoin wrote: »

excellent article here about Railway finance worldwide, a must-read for all us railway supporters.
It shows that outside of big cities and large population centres, railway mainly run at a loss, i.e. are not profitable.

But here is Ireland's biggest hope for railway success I would say: in Ireland from 2014 onwards, (if I'm not mistaken - this is what West-on-Track told me previously) other rail companies are legally entitled to enter the commercial rail market in Ireland. What local and regional Organisations could theoretically do is tender to foreign railway operators to come here and lay down tracks and run services here, as a minor part of their overall business, as it remains to be seen if that route is potentially profitable or not.
Anyway here is the article, enjoy

http://www.railway-technical.com/finance.shtml

Laying down new tracks could prove tricky. After the huge dig out of acres of fields and land for the current motorway network, I doubt the agriculture sector, which is seen as a huge player in getting Ireland out of it's financial woes, would be keen to give up more land for more boffins in suits and factories.