Does rail transport have a future in Ireland?

Grandeeod

gleesoneoin wrote: »

excellent article here about Railway finance worldwide, a must-read for all us railway supporters.
It shows that outside of big cities and large population centres, railway mainly run at a loss, i.e. are not profitable.

But here is Ireland's biggest hope for railway success I would say: in Ireland from 2014 onwards, (if I'm not mistaken - this is what West-on-Track told me previously) other rail companies are legally entitled to enter the commercial rail market in Ireland. What local and regional Organisations could theoretically do is tender to foreign railway operators to come here and lay down tracks and run services here, as a minor part of their overall business, as it remains to be seen if that route is potentially profitable or not.
Anyway here is the article, enjoy

http://www.railway-technical.com/finance.shtml

It really is very hard to be constructive towards a post like that. For a start WOT aren't any kind of authority on rail matters and what they told you regarding 2014 is based on their own slim hopes/fantasies that some rail operator from some part of Europe will arrive in a blaze of glory to run the WRC. It won't happen. The entire EU concept regarding railways has only one relevance in Ireland and that is the separation of services and infrastructure. I believe we will see this under continued state control, but hopefully it will bring with it separate accounts so we can see what kind of money IE are generating from just providing a service. That in itself would be a major breakthrough.

cgcsb

Definitely disagree, the future of rail in Ireland is not laying more track in more remote areas, the future is a radical improvement to the existing inter city and commuter routes, roll out of electrification nationwide, a serious improvement of line speeds, removal of level crossings, imrpoved gradients and curves and a major increase in line speed. Perhaps along with adding new commuter lines around the cities.

corktina

cgcsb wrote: »

Definitely disagree, the future of rail in Ireland is not laying more track in more remote areas, the future is a radical improvement to the existing inter city and commuter routes, roll out of electrification nationwide, a serious improvement of line speeds, removal of level crossings, imrpoved gradients and curves and a major increase in line speed. Perhaps along with adding new commuter lines around the cities.

this is rail's role...quite correct.

There won't be a queue of foreign operators knocking at the door, the system is only really big enough for one or two operators and the shared nature of the Northern line complicates the situation and what's more there are bigger fish to fry elswhere

cgcsb

corktina wrote: »

this is rail's role...quite correct.

There won't be a queue of foreign operators knocking at the door, the system is only really big enough for one or two operators and the shared nature of the Northern line complicates the situation and what's more there are bigger fish to fry elswhere

Agreed there's really no reason for a major European rail company like SNCF or Deutsche Bahn to build rural railways in Ireland to make losses/marginal profits, when they can be making improvements to the emerging Trans Euro highspeed network, for example the Palermo to Berlin line still requires substantial improvements.

corktina

there's no need for anyone to build or re-build or even radically improve rural railways. That's what buses are for... build a bus network and link it to suitable interchanges with rail/express coach services, virtually no infrastructure to pay for.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

there's no need for anyone to build or re-build or even radically improve rural railways.

all the network we have left should be improved and brought up to the highest speeds possible, after all it survived the lifting train for a reason (along with some closed lines that could have gone while others that might have had a chance could have been left but how and ever)
we did the whole closure and bus replacement system years ago, a lot of it failed to be honest as people just went to their cars. the line to navon should be rebuilt and along with dart 2 and dart underground, no extension to the WRC (as much as re-opening the line from galway to sligo would be nice i can guarintee other more worth while lines will close to pay for it) in an imaginary world of course i'd like to see the old brey hartcourt street line re-opened but to a new terminus once the luas infrastructure was life expired but one can dream and wish, i think small improvements to what we have along with doing everything possible to attract people to and back to the railways will be all we'l get for the forseeable future, so much to do, so little money, always the bluddy way, agree that bus routes and rail routes should be integrated, that goes without saying

corktina

where the railways serve the wrong areas, there's no point in throwing money at them "just because they are there"

My local line for instance , Mallow to Killarney, is only used at all for local traffic because there is no paralell bus service. Far more people would use this route if it were more accesible (ie a bus INTO the various towns and villages). I feel sure a bus route Mallow/Lombardstown/ Kanturk/ Millstreet/Rathmore/Barraduff/Killarney would serve more people than the present near Mallow/Banteer/near Millstreet/Rathmore/Killarney route

petronius

Of course rail-transport has a future in Ireland.

Each project route has to be "gauged"... as to its benefits, socially and economically
But there is a case where provision of a service does build a demand

Urban rail is a success, it carries a large number of passengers, be on a DART, or the Mayooth to Dublin rail line any morning and you'd see it.

The Irish railway system is overly concentrated on the Radial system from dublin - and the developments of the western rail corridor and local rail in cork and galway is a positive. But there has to be joined up thinking tourist traffic from limerick to galway via ennis needs to be convenient for potential passengers linking bus services also need to be provided
and it needs to be extended to Cork. the idea that your in cork and have to go by rail via dublin to get to galway is crazy - just have it zigzag via limerick junction but have the timetables and routes in sync.

bk

petronius wrote: »

and the developments of the western rail corridor and local rail in cork and galway is a positive.

I was with you until here!

No the WRC is the single worst thing that has ever happened to rail in Ireland:

- It was a waste of €100 million that could have been better spent on other much more useful projects.
- It is costing IR €3 million a year to run it, at a time when IR are in serious financial difficulty.
- It will likely to lead to the closure of other branch lines which actually carry more passengers then the WRC! As IR will need to find savings, but won't be able to close the WRC for political reasons (imagine the outrage of the public at the closer of the WRC only a few years after spending €100 million on it).
- It will likely make it much harder to open other lines in future as everyone will say, will this be another WRC.

No way those it need to be extended to Cork, madness. I assume you mean a new alignment, given that Limerick and Cork are already connected by rail?

It is already significantly faster and cheaper to get the bus from Galway to Limerick, which is why the WRC is such a disaster and likewise the bus from Limerick to Cork is much faster then any theoretical rail connection would be!

Yes, lets build rail where is makes sense, DART Underground, Phoenix Park Tunnel, Metro North, etc. Not crazy lines meandering through empty countryside carrying no one.

corktina

lets not ever forget how much of our tax money each year goes to service the €100 million spent on the Ennis to Athenry line debt and to finance borrowing another €3 million each year to keep it running.

If there is a cheaper alternative, that's what we should be doing, and as regards Galway to Cork, that is express coaches with building the M20 a priority

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

as regards Galway to Cork, that is express coaches with building the M20 a priority

no, the money should be spent on dart underground instead which would benefit way more people, express busses between galway and cork should not be made a priority for now or at all, get it done sometime but their are better more important projects to be done first such as dart underground, not sure on metro north though, would rather it as part of the dart system myself (pigs will fly though)

bk

end of the road wrote: »

no, the money should be spent on dart underground instead which would benefit way more people, express busses between galway and cork should not be made a priority for now or at all, get it done sometime but their are better more important projects to be done first such as dart underground, not sure on metro north though, would rather it as part of the dart system myself (pigs will fly though)

DART Underground is going to cost way more then the M20.

€800 million versus €2 billion.

The M20 shouldn't be built for express coaches, the M20 should be built as the current road is one of the most dangerous in the country, where many fatal accidents happen. A road which currently runs through many towns and villages that badly need by-passed, a road that connects our second and third largest cities and on to the fourth.

The M20 and Newlands Cross really are needed to complete our road network.

The express coaches that would result from this are the cherry on top.

It would certainly be a better investment then spending a couple hundred million directly connecting Limerick and Cork by rail or building more of the WRC.

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

no, the money should be spent on dart underground instead which would benefit way more people, express busses between galway and cork should not be made a priority for now or at all, get it done sometime but their are better more important projects to be done first such as dart underground, not sure on metro north though, would rather it as part of the dart system myself (pigs will fly though)

chalk and cheese...there is no comparison between DU and the M20 whereas rail services and the M17/M20 are in direct competition. We cannot afford two systems and the WRC is shown to be a failure already. As BK has said there are pressing reasons for building the M20.

(PS express coaches from Galway to Cork are a reality without spending another penny even without the M20 and are cheaper and faster and crucially, better used already. The M20 is (or at least improvements to the N20 are) needed to save lives, just one justification for the cost.

Banjoxed

Here's an interesting thing vis-a-vis the often quoted assertion that the bus between Limerick and Galway is always faster than the train. I've just got the latest Thomas Cook timetable and it quotes times for both modes.

Galway to Limerick by bus is quoted as two hours and fifteen minutes with a good selection of hourly buses all day.

Galway to Limerick by train runs four times a day with timings ranging from two hours and five minutes to one hour and fifty minutes.

Now I presume that Thomas Cooks don't have an axe to grind in the ongoing campaign in various quarters against the railway in the west but it is interesting to see an alternative perspective on this.

foggy_lad

Banjoxed wrote: »

Here's an interesting thing vis-a-vis the often quoted assertion that the bus between Limerick and Galway is always faster than the train. I've just got the latest Thomas Cook timetable and it quotes times for both modes.

Galway to Limerick by bus is quoted as two hours and fifteen minutes with a good selection of hourly buses all day.

Galway to Limerick by train runs four times a day with timings ranging from two hours and five minutes to one hour and fifty minutes.

Now I presume that Thomas Cooks don't have an axe to grind in the ongoing campaign in various quarters against the railway in the west but it is interesting to see an alternative perspective on this.

Thomas Cook have not heard of the Limerick-Galway Express, more commonly known as the X51 bullet bus:D

http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1360753062-051X.pdf

One hour twenty minutes each way beats the slow train every day!

bk

Nor the Citylink Express service, 1hour 20 minutes:

http://www.citylink.ie/

corktina

believe this: €103 million of your taxes was spent re-opening that line and about another €3 per year supporting it's losses....

Zoney

foggy_lad wrote: »

Thomas Cook have not heard of the Limerick-Galway Express, more commonly known as the X51 bullet bus:D

http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1360753062-051X.pdf

One hour twenty minutes each way beats the slow train every day!

I've gotten this regularly, and it's seldom been faster than 1 hr 45, not even due to traffic (late start, bus doesn't always do the max speed).

Sometimes it's longer again due to traffic, especially in Galway.

They shouldn't be allowed to advertise it as 1hr20, that's near fictional (1 hr 25 maybe in absolute optimal conditions).

I'd prefer to get the train but there aren't enough services (esp as I was linking to/from Mayo bus)

foggy_lad

I have got this bus myself a few times and leaving from limerick is usually fine with few delays but leaving from galway some drivers take it upon themselves to add extra stops which negates any benefit of the express service.

Banjoxed

Zoney wrote: »

I've gotten this regularly, and it's seldom been faster than 1 hr 45, not even due to traffic (late start, bus doesn't always do the max speed).

Sometimes it's longer again due to traffic, especially in Galway.

They shouldn't be allowed to advertise it as 1hr20, that's near fictional (1 hr 25 maybe in absolute optimal conditions).

I'd prefer to get the train but there aren't enough services (esp as I was linking to/from Mayo bus)

A very valid point that has never been raised on boards before to the best of my knowledge. There has been a lot of chat about the time tabling of this bus vis-a-vis the train but never about the inherent problem for any bus, the vagaries of traffic.

cgcsb

The Western rail corridor project just seems like a wasted opportunity to me. If we were willing to spend a little extra capital on the project, we could have had a modern double track railway on a more direct alignment with journey times beating road transport.

Instead we simply re-opened a victorian era railway on the same windy single track route, with no concern for how the transport needs of the country have changed in the past 100 years. It smacks of a blatant attempt to buy votes off travel pass grannies. Sad, sad country

end of the road

cgcsb wrote: »

The Western rail corridor project just seems like a wasted opportunity to me. If we were willing to spend a little extra capital on the project, we could have had a modern double track railway on a more direct alignment with journey times beating road transport.

Instead we simply re-opened a victorian era railway on the same windy single track route, with no concern for how the transport needs of the country have changed in the past 100 years. It smacks of a blatant attempt to buy votes off travel pass grannies. Sad, sad country

thinking about all the things we could have had in relation to our railways if we had people who have a clue and proper planning and investment makes me weap

marmurr1916

Banjoxed wrote: »

Here's an interesting thing vis-a-vis the often quoted assertion that the bus between Limerick and Galway is always faster than the train. I've just got the latest Thomas Cook timetable and it quotes times for both modes.

Galway to Limerick by bus is quoted as two hours and fifteen minutes with a good selection of hourly buses all day.

Galway to Limerick by train runs four times a day with timings ranging from two hours and five minutes to one hour and fifty minutes.

Now I presume that Thomas Cooks don't have an axe to grind in the ongoing campaign in various quarters against the railway in the west but it is interesting to see an alternative perspective on this.

What is the distance by train between Limerick and Galway? About 130 km?

A decent train service would do it in just over one hour.

Banjoxed

marmurr1916 wrote: »

What is the distance by train between Limerick and Galway? About 130 km?

A decent train service would do it in just over one hour.

Imagine the hue and cry if a properly engineered railway was on the cards. It would make the Sligo Mayo Greenway campaign look like a dog and My Little Pony bike show.

cgcsb

marmurr1916 wrote: »

What is the distance by train between Limerick and Galway? About 130 km?

A decent train service would do it in just over one hour.

the locals would complain that radiation from the new ultra high speed railway was causing their crops to fail. They'd then go on sabotage missions and try to damage the tracks

cgcsb

It's just so embarrassing and disapointing that as a country we had (at the time the WRC was in planning) the skilled engineers, the public support and the cash to construct a proper, reasonably fast rail connection between Galway and Limerick, with the future option of connections to Cork. And instead we re-open an entiquated line, knowing full well that it will not be a success and then subsidise it's operation for the future.

Who goes to prison for grossly negligent mismanagement of 130mil of our money?

KindOfIrish

cgcsb wrote: »

It's just so embarrassing and disapointing that as a country we had (at the time the WRC was in planning) the skilled engineers, the public support and the cash to construct a proper, reasonably fast rail connection between Galway and Limerick, with the future option of connections to Cork. And instead we re-open an entiquated line, knowing full well that it will not be a success and then subsidise it's operation for the future.

Who goes to prison for grossly negligent mismanagement of 130mil of our money?

Motorway system not much better. Who goes to prison for building 200 km motorway between Dublin and Limerick with no toilet?!!! I think there is no precedent like that in world building history!:mad:

cgcsb

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Motorway system not much better. Who goes to prison for building 200 km motorway between Dublin and Limerick with no toilet?!!! I think there is no precedent like that in world building history!:mad:

In fairness that is much less grave an error than the WRC, services can be added to the motorway at any stage. There's not much that can be done to wrc to improve service short of ripping up large sections of it and starting again, sucvh a waste of resources. I'm just back from Austria you see, and I'm experiencing some culture shock at all the backward thinking.

Banjoxed

cgcsb wrote: »

In fairness that is much less grave an error than the WRC, services can be added to the motorway at any stage. There's not much that can be done to wrc to improve service short of ripping up large sections of it and starting again, sucvh a waste of resources. I'm just back from Austria you see, and I'm experiencing some culture shock at all the backward thinking.

I am sure that those tendering for road contracts and potential sellers of land for road projects would view any rail project as a waste of resources as well

corktina

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Motorway system not much better. Who goes to prison for building 200 km motorway between Dublin and Limerick with no toilet?!!! I think there is no precedent like that in world building history!:mad:

what the hell did I pee in in Midway the other day? sorry Midway, thought it was a loo