What do i pay a young lad for farm help?

bogman_bass

pakalasa wrote: »

I've noticed every now and again, a thread appears that attracts people from outside farming. It always seems to descend into personal abuse. Pity.....

True Pakalasa. And it must be said that there is trolling going on from both sides of the fence. But I think it refelects Farmers attitudes in general that we can get very defensive if an alternative view comes from an "outsider".
Farmers arent always right because "thats the way we've done it for years"
Likewise farmers arent all a bunch of feckless country bumkins

A bit of mature debate from both sides is great, lets all just keep it grown up and talk like adults

Tipp Man

Quite a lot of this "disdain" is obviously aimed at me seen as though i am doing most of the arguing for paying little - na bothered by that. However I would ask people to read the 2 posts below which highlight the exact cost of hiring a young fella for a year and where farming is really at today. Now if anybody can hand on heart tell me that a kid is worth the profit of 50 acres for doing a few hours of work a day, 5 days a week for a year and the general consensus is that this (or any) kid is worth it then i won't appear on this thread again

1 other point - in another business we hire 4 or 5 staff - the cost is absolutely crippling, especially when the PRSI is paid and whats more is that we (my partner mainly) ends up doing more work than any employee due to holidays, sick days, not turning up etc etc. The employees are off sunning themselves in Spain and we have to fit our holidays around them. Yet we are the ones who have invested thousands in the premises, taken on borrowing, creating employment and taking bloody risks and probably end up with less than if we were paying ourselves the same hourly rate as our employees. The whole equilibrium is completely messed up

Also to the poster earlier who called me a troll - I am deadly serious - the numbers used below are not made up

Tipp Man wrote: »

so let's look at this from a financial point of view

Your typical non dairy farm is making about 250 an acre per annum - give or take on a good or bad year

People are saying this kid should be getting a minimum of 50 a day or 250 a week - so the kid would be getting the profit of 1 acre every week - over the course of a year he would get the profit of 50 acres

So a kid who hasn't left school, has no experience or knowledge of farming (from what i can gather) and has no skill should be paid the equivilant profit of 50 acres?? This is nuts - this kid has invested nothing. To make that profit the farmer would have invested 500k to buy it, 50k to stock it and another 50k for sheds, bit of machinery etc.

On what planet should a kid doing a few hours a day make the same amount as a farmer with 600k invested in assets

Farmers are fools - it really is that simple

Tipp Man wrote: »

Thanks God there is somebody who see that the numbers being mentioned here are nonsense

Whats amazing is that even on the home page of the farming forum there are 2 threads - "11,000 farmers on farm assist" and "Sucklers or bucket reared" where a fella is wondering how he can make money from 70 acres. The fella with 70 acres will be lucky to make as much as a kid over the year by the looks of it

If people on this forum think an inexperienced kid still in school should be earning that kind of money then we should never again have any threads on here complaining about profit from farming or cost in farming

ceegee

Its not really the employees problem though what profit you make. Loads of companies take time to build up before the owners see profit - should employees work for free until this happens? Its not easy getting by on minimum wage in this country, itd be near impossible to get by on a 5er an hour

Tipp Man

ceegee wrote: »

Its not really the employees problem though what profit you make. Loads of companies take time to build up before the owners see profit - should employees work for free until this happens? Its not easy getting by on minimum wage in this country, itd be near impossible to get by on a 5er an hour

He's a schoolkid - what getting by exactly does he need to do. Mobile phone and few pints on a saturday - if he is even that old

On the profits point - you totally miss the point which is that employees are better off than their employers and yet they have invested no money, taken no risk or no borrowings. They don't have to worry about the revenue, the bank or any of these crappy rules and laws, thats for the boss to worry about.

This is not just farming but across nearly every small business in this country. Which is why so many are closing down and the rest are hanging on. Even big long established companies can't keep the show on the road. And wages are a major problem and cause of this. and it not just the wages - employees forget (or should i say haven't a clue) just how much other costs are associated with having them - PRSI, insurance etc. the list is endless

bbam

But this guy is a secondary school student and is most probably working for some spending money rather than "getting bye".
There is nothing wrong with low paid jobs provided people aren't worked like slaves. Traditionally students have worked for little money as they mostly aren't supporting themselves just a little experience and pocket money.

ceegee

bbam wrote: »

But this guy is a secondary school student and is most probably working for some spending money rather than "getting bye".
There is nothing wrong with low paid jobs provided people aren't worked like slaves. Traditionally students have worked for little money as they mostly aren't supporting themselves just a little experience and pocket money.

Would you pay someone extra because you found out theyd a higher mortgage than other workers? I believe all workers ahould be treated with a bit of respect and, to me, Id find an employer offering less than the legal minimum wage to be an insulting measure of my worth. Its like saying its grand for nike to run sweatshops, sure they're only 10 what would they want with a decent wage?

rancher

Tipp Man wrote: »

He's a schoolkid - what getting by exactly does he need to do. Mobile phone and few pints on a saturday - if he is even that old

On the profits point - you totally miss the point which is that employees are better off than their employers and yet they have invested no money, taken no risk or no borrowings. They don't have to worry about the revenue, the bank or any of these crappy rules and laws, thats for the boss to worry about.

This is not just farming but across nearly every small business in this country. Which is why so many are closing down and the rest are hanging on. Even big long established companies can't keep the show on the road. And wages are a major problem and cause of this. and it not just the wages - employees forget (or should i say haven't a clue) just how much other costs are associated with having them - PRSI, insurance etc. the list is endless

If a job doesn't justify at least the minimum wage, it's not the employee thats wrong,that job shouldn't be offered to anyone.

tayto lover

pakalasa wrote: »

I've noticed every now and again, a thread appears that attracts people from outside farming. It always seems to descend into personal abuse. Pity.....

You should read the ones about the nurses, teachers and guards then if you want to see what abuse really is.

ceegee

Tipp Man wrote: »

ceegee wrote: »

Its not really the employees problem though what profit you make. Loads of companies take time to build up before the owners see profit - should employees work for free until this happens? Its not easy getting by on minimum wage in this country, itd be near impossible to get by on a 5er an hour

He's a schoolkid - what getting by exactly does he need to do. Mobile phone and few pints on a saturday - if he is even that old

On the profits point - you totally miss the point which is that employees are better off than their employers and yet they have invested no money, taken no risk or no borrowings. They don't have to worry about the revenue, the bank or any of these crappy rules and laws, thats for the boss to worry about.

This is not just farming but across nearly every small business in this country. Which is why so many are closing down and the rest are hanging on. Even big long established companies can't keep the show on the road. And wages are a major problem and cause of this. and it not just the wages - employees forget (or should i say haven't a clue) just how much other costs are associated with having them - PRSI, insurance etc. the list is endless

Of course profits come into it. Employers put in capital, take on risk because if the business takes off they make all the profits.
If your running at a loss, the guy on the factory floor may end up making more but when the company grows, hes still on minimum wage even if the owner is making millions.

I understand its hard to run a small business and applaud anyone who takes that risk but at the same time a guy doing manual labour for a profitable company or nonprofitable company will still have put in the same amount of work and deserves at least minimum wage

tayto lover

Tipp Man wrote: »

Quite a lot of this "disdain" is obviously aimed at me seen as though i am doing most of the arguing for paying little - na bothered by that. However I would ask people to read the 2 posts below which highlight the exact cost of hiring a young fella for a year and where farming is really at today. Now if anybody can hand on heart tell me that a kid is worth the profit of 50 acres for doing a few hours of work a day, 5 days a week for a year and the general consensus is that this (or any) kid is worth it then i won't appear on this thread again

1 other point - in another business we hire 4 or 5 staff - the cost is absolutely crippling, especially when the PRSI is paid and whats more is that we (my partner mainly) ends up doing more work than any employee due to holidays, sick days, not turning up etc etc. The employees are off sunning themselves in Spain and we have to fit our holidays around them. Yet we are the ones who have invested thousands in the premises, taken on borrowing, creating employment and taking bloody risks and probably end up with less than if we were paying ourselves the same hourly rate as our employees. The whole equilibrium is completely messed up

Also to the poster earlier who called me a troll - I am deadly serious - the numbers used below are not made up

BUT he's not looking for a year's employment, only about 2 months, so that knocks that. I apologize for calling you a troll, it just looked that way at the time.

Tipp Man

Ah lads less of the minimum wage business

1 of the major points of this arguement is that the minimum wage is far too high in this country, its the second highest in the EU and we are stone broke. I thought we'd covered this several pages back - the minimum wage is ridiculously high in this country

So don't be giving me this minimum wage rubbish please

Tipp Man

tayto lover wrote: »

BUT he's not looking for a year's employment, only about 2 months, so that knocks that. I apologize for calling you a troll, it just looked that way at the time.

regardless of whether it is 8 weeks or 52 weeks - the financial dynamic whereby a kid earns the profit of 1 acre for 25 hours work is completly wrong.

He is an unskilled young kid still at school and people expect he is worth that kind of wage??:eek:

as for manual work - its not like he's building the great wall of chine by himself

Tipp Man

ceegee wrote: »

Of course profits come into it. Employers put in capital, take on risk because if the business takes off they make all the profits.
If your running at a loss, the guy on the factory floor may end up making more but when the company grows, hes still on minimum wage even if the owner is making millions.

I understand its hard to run a small business and applaud anyone who takes that risk but at the same time a guy doing manual labour for a profitable company or nonprofitable company will still have put in the same amount of work and deserves at least minimum wage

The whole point is that minimum wage - and indeed most wages - in this country are too high

They are a real problem for employers

al28283

Tipp Man wrote: »

regardless of whether it is 8 weeks or 52 weeks - the financial dynamic whereby a kid earns the profit of 1 acre for 25 hours work is completly wrong.

He is an unskilled young kid still at school and people expect he is worth that kind of wage??:eek:

as for manual work - its not like he's building the great wall of chine by himself

If that is the case then this farmer cannot afford to take on this guy. He can only afford to employ highly skilled workers for low pay

djmc

I think this is part of the problem with unemployment in this country there is jobs
there but employers are not making enough to pay the minimum wage.
I would have enough work for someone full time but would have nothing left to live on if I took someone on so I just carry on getting half the work done.

tayto lover

Tipp Man wrote: »

regardless of whether it is 8 weeks or 52 weeks - the financial dynamic whereby a kid earns the profit of 1 acre for 25 hours work is completly wrong.

He is an unskilled young kid still at school and people expect he is worth that kind of wage??:eek:

as for manual work - its not like he's building the great wall of chine by himself

I'd say that deep deep down you're a softie.

Tipp Man

djmc wrote: »

I think this is part of the problem with unemployment in this country there is jobs
there but employers are not making enough to pay the minimum wage.
I would have enough work for someone full time but would have nothing left to live on if I took someone on so I just carry on getting half the work done.

The whole arguement in a nutshell

Tipp Man

tayto lover wrote: »

I'd say that deep deep down you're a softie.

Ah you got me - i am a big softie

bbam

ceegee wrote: »

Would you pay someone extra because you found out theyd a higher mortgage than other workers? I believe all workers ahould be treated with a bit of respect and, to me, Id find an employer offering less than the legal minimum wage to be an insulting measure of my worth. Its like saying its grand for nike to run sweatshops, sure they're only 10 what would they want with a decent wage?

The thing is that he can just walk away if he thinks its not enoughoney.
Overpaying workers is a key part of the problem in our overinflated economy.
Costs are high
Social welfare too high
Wages too high.

They all need to come down for the country to be cost competitive on an international stage. I'm not talking a race to the bottom, an adjustment to make our economy grow before its too late.

ceegee

Tipp Man wrote: »

ceegee wrote: »

Of course profits come into it. Employers put in capital, take on risk because if the business takes off they make all the profits.
If your running at a loss, the guy on the factory floor may end up making more but when the company grows, hes still on minimum wage even if the owner is making millions.

I understand its hard to run a small business and applaud anyone who takes that risk but at the same time a guy doing manual labour for a profitable company or nonprofitable company will still have put in the same amount of work and deserves at least minimum wage

The whole point is that minimum wage - and indeed most wages - in this country are too high

They are a real problem for employers

Then lobby for a reduction in the mimimum wage level.

I just feel that paying a lad 25 quid a day is pushing it beyond an acceptable level, sure a night out and maybe pay to be put on the parents insurance and thats gone - not much return for a weeks graft

Vandy West

I've seen it posted several times that the OP was going to pay 25 a day, when what he was really saying was 5 hrs a day at 5 euro.

Also saw posted earlier that you can hire unskilled/under 18 for 6 euro an hour, so the OP should just hire a 17 year old instead and then he would be paying the minimum wage and it would only be 30 euro for a 5 hour day.

Or could the OP be really mean and say "i'll give you 50 euro to paint that huge shed" or "i'll accept your tender of 10 euro to mow my 2 acre garden".

The minimum wage is far too high and until the min wage and the dole is reduced, there will be little creation of new jobs.

pakalasa

It's the bargaining process isn't it? The employer says wages are too high, the workers say they are not high enough. Supply and demand finds a happy balance. The minimum wage is there to prevent exploitation.

whelan1

pakalasa wrote: »

It's the bargaining process isn't it? The employer says wages are too high, the workers say they are not high enough. Supply and demand finds a happy balance. The minimum wage is there to prevent exploitation.

but in light of the current financial status of the country should the minimum wage not be reviewed?

Atilathehun

whelan1 wrote: »

pakalasa wrote: »

It's the bargaining process isn't it? The employer says wages are too high, the workers say they are not high enough. Supply and demand finds a happy balance. The minimum wage is there to prevent exploitation.

but in light of the current financial status of the country should the minimum wage not be reviewed?

It was reviewed. Last government reduced it by €1 per hour!!
But then there was an election, and the **** in labour promised to put it back up again when they got into government!!

Which they duly did!

1chippy

The last contract i ran, ran way over. Due to a lot of unforseen circumstances. I had to price that job keen to get it and took the gamble on it. It didnt pay off. The lads all got paid. I didnt even take a wage, it actually cost me. I'll take that knock this time but definately cant afford it again. I took the brunt of the hassle, the risks and sleepless nights.
Employees or people who have never had to take these risks, just turn up at eight and go home at five, without any worry about the consequences of whatever may be happening in whatever walk of life. Never will understand or care about the realities of the situation out there. MOST BUSINESS'S OUT THERE WHETHER FARMING OR NOT CANT PAY MINIMUM WAGE AT THE MOMENT OR FOR FORESEEABLE FUTURE.
I would far rather see a young lad getting something rather than sitting around costing someone else. Remember he approached the farmer, this farm seems to have managed before without him and is doing this as much to help the lad as help himself.

Good loser

Tipp Man wrote: »

Ah lads less of the minimum wage business

1 of the major points of this arguement is that the minimum wage is far too high in this country, its the second highest in the EU and we are stone broke. I thought we'd covered this several pages back - the minimum wage is ridiculously high in this country

So don't be giving me this minimum wage rubbish please

Tipp Man you are in touch with reality. Your suggestion of €150 per week is plenty. He gets fed too. He can take any day off he likes I presume.

He has no dependents. He's getting skills and training. What about all those on that Govt scheme where they work for nothing?

The alternative most likely for him is that he'd be arsing around at home all day doing nothing.

For most farmers €150 a week or €600 a month is big money.

al28283

1chippy wrote: »

The last contract i ran, ran way over. Due to a lot of unforseen circumstances. I had to price that job keen to get it and took the gamble on it. It didnt pay off. The lads all got paid. I didnt even take a wage, it actually cost me. I'll take that knock this time but definately cant afford it again. I took the brunt of the hassle, the risks and sleepless nights.
Employees or people who have never had to take these risks, just turn up at eight and go home at five, without any worry about the consequences of whatever may be happening in whatever walk of life. Never will understand or care about the realities of the situation out there. MOST BUSINESS'S OUT THERE WHETHER FARMING OR NOT CANT PAY MINIMUM WAGE AT THE MOMENT OR FOR FORESEEABLE FUTURE.
I would far rather see a young lad getting something rather than sitting around costing someone else. Remember he approached the farmer, this farm seems to have managed before without him and is doing this as much to help the lad as help himself.

So he shouldn't take on extra staff if they're not needed and he can't afford to pay them

1chippy

al28283 wrote: »

So he shouldn't take on extra staff if they're not needed and he can't afford to pay them

If every employer in the country did that today; what do you think the vast majority of people in this country would be doing tomorrow, where would the dole come from and what would they be willing to work for then?
Sorry i forgot Europe loves having a nation of high value unemployed as back up, just in case they get to the stage that they can afford us.

Bizzum

Good loser wrote: »

Tipp Man you are in touch with reality.

My thoughts too!

Were I a 17yo working with a farmer/neighbour I'd be quite happy with €150 a week (5 days), good grub, a positive learning experience, valuable work experience, the prospect of more employment with better wage (milking), and a good addition to my CV.

Alternatively I could sit on my arse for the summer.

I know which I'd choose.

al28283

Leave the country, as Tipp Man is planning to do

whelan1

Manoffeeling wrote: »

Not all single mothers are as perceived.

fine, i understand that BUT when i am married with kids and work my arse off and mary down the road can get rent allowance,medical card, back to school allowance etc and still live with her partner - who also claim - it does hurt, the whole system is wrong..... i suppose on one hand fair play for screwing the system but on the other hand alot of them are really saying fingers up to everyone else

Muckit

kevthegaff wrote: »

Well lads, a young lad going into 6yr asked for a summer job the other day. what sort of money should i give him. hel be prob doing jobs like repairing stuff with me, feeding calves, picking stones, cleaning out sheds, helping with the milking(with the idea of milking himself on hes own in the future). prob be around 5-6hours a day, hes just down the road

I've only gotten around to looking at this post now....

What sort of money should you give him? Hold on, he's not working for you .....yet. I think you need to decide what you can afford to pay him for the hours that you really need him for.

I'm not up with the legal side as regards minimum this and that and insurance, but this needs to be taken into account too.

You then offer him the position outlining the hours, ,what will be expected of him, and what you are willing to pay him. The ball is then in his court. He has the choice then to take up your offer if he wants it. No harm done if he doesn't.

I don't agree that student parttime wages offered can be compared or contrasted across the board for different jobs. Ie you can't compare money offered by a highstreet chipper to a casual farm labourer. If he thinks he can get more money in chipper, then...... let him go try and get a job in a chipper!!

Muckit

whelan1 wrote: »

fine, i understand that BUT when i am married with kids and work my arse off and mary down the road can get rent allowance,medical card, back to school allowance etc and still live with her partner

Although I understand where you are coming from to an extent, you really shouldn't tar everyone with the one brush. It's the system that is wrong, not all single mothers. There will always be those that will use and abuse and get and look for more that they are entitled to.

Saying that, not all single mothers live with or are lucky enough to have a partner to help them share the financial, emotional and physical burdens of rearing a child. Imagine in your own words, 'working your arse off' while still having to rear your kids single handedly :rolleyes:

pakalasa

...............At one of our dinners, Milton recalled traveling to an Asian country in the 1960s and visiting a worksite where a new canal was being built. He was shocked to see that, instead of modern tractors and earth movers, the workers had shovels. He asked why there were so few machines. The government bureaucrat explained: “You don’t understand. This is a jobs program.” To which Milton replied: “Oh, I thought you were trying to build a canal. If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels.”..............

whelan1

Muckit wrote: »

Although I understand where you are coming from to an extent, you really shouldn't tar everyone with the one brush. It's the system that is wrong, not all single mothers. There will always be those that will use and abuse and get and look for more that they are entitled to.

Saying that, not all single mothers live with or are lucky enough to have a partner to help them share the financial, emotional and physical burdens of rearing a child. Imagine in your own words, 'working your arse off' while still having to rear your kids single handedly :rolleyes:

i 100% agree its the abuse of the system that is wrong and the getting away with it.... also there are many married people who rare their children single handedly with out the benefits that a single mother has... i agree for those who need it its great but better policing of the system is needed... i suppose i am jealous

Bizzum

whelan1 wrote: »

i suppose i am jealous

Show himself the door..................It's for the best:D

Tipp Man

al28283 wrote: »

Leave the country, as Tipp Man is planning to do

Ehhh?? What u talking about??

whelan1

not to be a moan, my sister who has ms - can not work so is on disability- her son who is 5 has epilepsy, drugs etc cause behavioural problems. while they have a medical card they can not access funding for an occupational therapist , so they had to pay €180 for an assessment and now pay €100 per half hour visit to the ot.....the system is so wrong, that €100 that is being spent has to come from somewhere

johngalway

whelan1 wrote: »

fine, i understand that BUT when i am married with kids and work my arse off and mary down the road can get rent allowance,medical card, back to school allowance etc and still live with her partner - who also claim - it does hurt, the whole system is wrong..... i suppose on one hand fair play for screwing the system but on the other hand alot of them are really saying fingers up to everyone else

As far as I am aware that is fraud.

Agree with Muckits last post.

But yer taking pot shots at the wrong group.

whelan1

johngalway wrote: »

As far as I am aware that is fraud.

Agree with Muckits last post.

But yer taking pot shots at the wrong group.

i know its fraud... they know its fraud too ........ sorry just venting my frustration at a crap system

johngalway

whelan1 wrote: »

i know its fraud... they know its fraud too ........ sorry just venting my frustration at a crap system

I understand, just do it at the fraudsters There are a lot of good single mothers out there. Bit like someone coming on here with with the greedy/miserable/cruel farmer comments, never applies to all.

leonidas83

JUST GIVE HIM A COUPLE OF RASHERS AND SAUSAGES IN THE MORNING FOLLOWED BY SOME SPUDS IN THE EVENING & LEAVE IT AT THAT. PEOPLE ARE FAR TOO GENEROUS THESE DAYS, HE SHOULD BE GRATEFUL FOR ANY FOOD HE GETS IN THESE TIMES, DOES HE KNOW THERE'S A RECESSION GOING ON OUT THERE FFS

whelan1

johngalway wrote: »

I understand, just do it at the fraudsters There are a lot of good single mothers out there. Bit like someone coming on here with with the greedy/miserable/cruel farmer comments, never applies to all.

i would never tar all single mother as the same.... as i said previously its great for those who need the system but their as per usual are people who use it wrongly..........

bbam

The system is open to serious abuse. There needs to be more checking of receptiants. Lads out working and drawing are being caught wholesale at checkpoints in vans in the mornings which is great.
Where is the push to catch those with false claims for lone parents or rent allowances.
It's only a minority that ruin it for genuine claimants.

tayto lover

Tipp Man wrote: »

Ah lads less of the minimum wage business

1 of the major points of this arguement is that the minimum wage is far too high in this country, its the second highest in the EU and we are stone broke. I thought we'd covered this several pages back - the minimum wage is ridiculously high in this country

So don't be giving me this minimum wage rubbish please

I heard Joe Duffy say that farmers pay less than 1% of the total income tax paid to the exchequer so farmers who drive 30k mercs can surely afford to pay a young lad the proper rate i.e. minimum wage.

keep going

i leave my computer for a couple of days and ye get yer selves into a right
tizzy. joining this late im glad to see all the non regulars that have joined us and look forward to their thoughts and experiences on farming matters.back to point ,taking on my nephew(16) for the summer,good old lad but very green so will have to spend a good bit of time training him but he is cute and will pick it up fast.i am planning to pay him 200 a week for 40 hrs or so-those will be flexible to suit me or him.to be honest he is not worth any more to me on 2 levells1what he can actually do and 2 i can justify 16 or 18 hundred to tidy up the place and get a few jobs done over the summer but not any more.his parents would have him here for nothing to get out of their house and theres no doubt he would be alot more employable after the summer.lastly lets park all the stuff about spongers or single mothers or what ever, it will get us nowhere and people think the way they think no matter what you say

blindside88

I'd say 150 - 200 a week is plenty. When I was 14 up to 17 I worked during the summers and would have taken hand and all if I was getting 150. I worked fruit picking at 20c per punnit, stone picking at €20 a day (7 hours) and pruning Christmas trees (1.5c per tree if you were to prune the top ring and 5c if you were to prune the whole tree). For the fruit and stone picking it was a 20 minute cycle and the Christmas trees was upto an hours drive depending on location. If you take into it the valuable experience he'll gain and skills he'll learn I'd say around 150 a week would be plenty

Rovi

[MOD]
More snippage has occurred; let's keep it out of the gutter folks!
[/MOD]

whelan1

blindside88 wrote: »

I'd say 150 - 200 a week is plenty. When I was 14 up to 17 I worked during the summers and would have taken hand and all if I was getting 150. I worked fruit picking at 20c per punnit, stone picking at €20 a day (7 hours) and pruning Christmas trees (1.5c per tree if you were to prune the top ring and 5c if you were to prune the whole tree). For the fruit and stone picking it was a 20 minute cycle and the Christmas trees was upto an hours drive depending on location. If you take into it the valuable experience he'll gain and skills he'll learn I'd say around 150 a week would be plenty

fair play, but would you get people willing to do that type of work nowadays, alot of people think this work is beneath them for some reason

blindside88

It wasn't that long ago but I know what your saying. My youngest brother is 15 and wouldn't consider working for anything like that money. Teenagers need to learn learn the value of a euro again ( I'm aware this makes me sound about 90)