Teachers and their summer holidays

Boombastic

Red Pepper wrote: »

My point exactly - they didn't teach me enough!! I meant the teacher lad...the gay lad...

The teacher who had enough time to write 26 books, 473 stories, 237 essays and 6 plays during his holidays?

Aineoil

Red Pepper wrote: »

My point exactly - they didn't teach me enough!! I meant the teacher lad...the gay lad...

Shakes head
Well on a positive note you remember something about Patrick Pearse

Red Pepper

Aineoil wrote: »

Shakes head
Well on a positive note you remember something about Patrick Pearse

Didn't they chop his head off in Eyre Square or did I get that wrong?

Aineoil

Red Pepper wrote: »

Didn't they chop his head off in Eyre Square or did I get that wrong?

The statue of Pádraic O Conaire in Eyre Square was beheaded in 1999.:eek:

Red Pepper

Aineoil wrote: »

The statue of Pádraic O Conaire in Eyre Square was beheaded in 1999.:eek:

Poor bastard, he didn't deserve that.

Aineoil

Red Pepper wrote: »

Poor bastard, he didn't deserve that.

Maybe some people had issues with Scothscéalta while at school?:D

Boombastic

^^The children in class use the diversion tactic too when they don't want to discuss the topic presented

Aineoil

Boombastic wrote: »

^^The children in class use the diversion tactic too when they don't want to discuss the topic presented

I don't want to discuss the topic. I just saw something wrong on the internet.:D

Red Pepper

Aineoil wrote: »

Maybe some people had issues with Scothscéalta while at school?:D

Aineoil

Aineoil wrote: »

Maybe some people had issues with Scothscéalta while at school?:D

O Conaire wrote a collection of short stories in Irish called Scothscéalta. It used to be on the course for Leaving Cert.:)

Red Pepper

Aineoil wrote: »

O Conaire wrote a collection of short stories in Irish called Scothscéalta. It used to be on the course for Leaving Cert.:)

Who knew.

Are you stalking me Aineoil? Be careful, ladies fall in love with me very fast.

evolving_doors

Boombastic wrote: »

And your inability to defend the length of holidays shows your obvious superiority and education.

You havn't really been following the replies have you, basically (yet again) the summer holidays thing are a legacy issue and teachers get paid on a 9/12 pro rata basis.

If you want me to work the summer Im all for it. Presume you are happy to give me a pay rise too.

Btw teachers dont get paid for the summer..

9/12

Answer that.

Also, what is your occupation?

evolving_doors

Boombastic wrote: »

^^The children in class use the diversion tactic too when they don't want to discuss the topic presented

Awaiting reply...

If you dont want to have to think to much then the Liveline thread should suit your hot air, failing that why dont you try posting in the Croke Park 2 thread in the Teaching forum...I'm sure you could help the teachers understand the lay of the land in education..

So...seeing as teachers dont get paid for the summer, would you be in agreement to pay them accordingly if they work for it?

What's you own profession BTW?

Boombastic

Armelodie wrote: »

Awaiting reply...

If you dont want to have to think to much then the Liveline thread should suit your hot air, failing that why dont you try posting in the Croke Park 2 thread in the Teaching forum...I'm sure you could help the teachers understand the lay of the land in education..

So...seeing as teachers dont get paid for the summer, would you be in agreement to pay them accordingly if they work for it?

What's you own profession BTW?

I don't know what reply you are waiting for as you haven't asked me a question, unless it's the one about should you be paid more? The answer to that is no. The salary you receive is enough compensation for a 39 hour week with statutory holidays.

evolving_doors

Boombastic wrote: »

I don't know
what reply you are waiting for as you haven't asked me a question, unless it's the one about should you be paid more? The answer to that is no.

Ok thanks for the first part, you want us to work a month or two for no extra pay.. I can see the points shooting up for teaching allready, I know lets ship in teachers from eastern europe to do the jobs no one wants, like in the private sector services industry...

Boombastic wrote: »

The salary you receive is enough compensation for a 39 hour week with statutory holidays.

What's your own profession BTW? also tell me how much you earn just so we can be really fair, and then Ill be the judge of the 'salary' you receive.

Would you be advocating a system like cuba where a surgeon gets the same as the cleaner?

Boombastic

Armelodie wrote: »

Ok thanks for the first part, you want us to work a month or two for no extra pay.. I can see the points shooting up for teaching allready, I know lets ship in teachers from eastern europe to do the jobs no one wants, like in the private sector services industry...



What's your own profession BTW? also tell me how much you earn just so we can be really fair, and then Ill be the judge of the 'salary' you receive.

Would you be advocating a system like cuba where a surgeon gets the same as the cleaner?

No but I would like a system where a teacher is paid less than a Garda, who work shifts throughout the year

Rightwing

Boombastic wrote: »

No but I would like a system where a teacher is paid less than a Garda, who work shifts throughout the year

I wouldn't. Gardaí are overpaid. They too get perks,,,e.g. retire at 55.

The reserve force proves that almost anyone can be a garda.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

I wouldn't. Gardaí are overpaid. They too get perks,,,e.g. retire at 55.

The reserve force proves that almost anyone can be a garda.

Gardai are not even close to over payed

evolving_doors

Rightwing wrote: »

I wouldn't. Gardaí are overpaid. They too get perks,,,e.g. retire at 55.

The reserve force proves that almost anyone can be a garda.

Ok so Rightwing what is your profession again, just so we can compare?

Aineoil

Boombastic wrote: »

No but I would like a system where a teacher is paid less than a Garda, who work shifts throughout the year

Yeah and Pádraic O Conaire was executed......you did re-quote that.

Boombastic

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Gardai are not even close to over payed

Ah they are, but it's still less than what a teacher starts on

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Gardai are not even close to over payed

My English would spell that as 'paid'. Hope this helps for future reference.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Boombastic wrote: »

Ah they are, but it's still less than what a teacher starts on

In what sense are Gardai overpayed? Considering the job they do they really don't get enough imo

I know a few young Gardai struggling to get by on their salaries, really struggling

Boombastic

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

In what sense are Gardai overpayed? Considering the job they do they really don't get enough imo

I know a few young Gardai struggling to get by on their salaries, really struggling

But they don't have as hard a job as teachers

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Boombastic wrote: »

But they don't have as hard a job as teachers

In your opinion maybe

Boombastic

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

In your opinion maybe

No in the governments opinion, hence the difference in salaries and time worked

Aineoil

Aineoil wrote: »

Yeah and Pádraic O Conaire was executed......you did re-quote that.

This person didn't even see the mistake.

evolving_doors

Boombastic wrote: »

No but I would like a system where a teacher is paid less than a Garda, who work shifts throughout the year

Would it make any difference that a teacher has to do more than 5 years training (UNPAID) before starting off on a part time basis which is often the same as the dole. Do this for about 5 years then maybe hope for something more secure like a 14 hour CID as there are no permanent posts any more..
Also a guard gets paid during their 2 years training and starts off on a permanent rate the same as all his graduating peers.

I believe (and know personally) that the guards do a hell of a risky job with serious risks to life, but you can see from the above example that you can't compare the two professions ...apples and oranges...
Dont nurses and dentists and doctors get paid during their block realease? Most if the lads I knew who did apprenticeships through FAS also got paid...So how about it ?

Fair is fair?

Or is your response, ah shur ye get too much allready?

What's your own bread and butter btw, just so we can compare?

Boombastic

Armelodie wrote: »

Would it make any difference that a teacher has to do more than 5 years training (UNPAID) before starting off on a part time basis which is often the same as the dole. Do this for about 5 years then maybe hope for something more secure like a 14 hour CID as there are no permanent posts any more..
Also a guard gets paid during their 2 years training and starts off on a permanent rate the same as all his graduating peers.

I believe (and know personally) that the guards do a hell of a risky job with serious risks to life, but you can see from the above example that you can't compare the two professions ...apples and oranges...
Dont nurses and dentists and doctors get paid during their block realease? Most if the lads I knew who did apprenticeships through FAS also got paid...So how about it ?

Fair is fair?

Or is your response, ah shur ye get too much allready?

What's your own bread and butter btw, just so we can compare?

5 years unpaid training. Where do they do this? If you are referring to studying a college, they get the same grants as other students. Teaching practice in the classroom-this is part of your training, you can't learn everything from a book. By that logic science students should get paid for attending labs. Availability of permanent jobs is a different issue and if the school year was extended it would create more positions. What's the educational benefit of such long holidays for children?

andyman

Boombastic wrote: »

5 years unpaid training. Where do they do this? If you are referring to studying a college, they get the same grants as other students.

I get no grants. I have to work part-time on the weekends to fund my training.

Boombastic wrote: »

Teaching practice in the classroom-this is part of your training, you can't learn everything from a book.

Nobody is saying it's not part of the training, but the Gardai do get paid as part of their training, teachers don't and student-teachers (like myself) also have to fund their own resources.

Boombastic wrote: »

Availability of permanent jobs is a different issue and if the school year was extended it would create more positions.

How on Earth did you come up with this?

I think it's fair to say your post was torn to threads. When suggesting that I get grants "like every other student" shows you haven't only got a clue about the education system, but you haven't a clue about teacher training as well.

LizT

If you're talking about doing a teaching degree as your first undergraduate degree, it's subsidised by the government. You may still pay registration fees etc but they're comparatively little compared to the UK, where fees can be 10k (sterling) a year. Not everyone gets grants but your average student gets their fees paid.

Aineoil

Why would you argue with someone who re-quotes that Padraic O Conaire was involved in 1916? If you want to debate, know your subject area.

Mods, this is relevant, because if a person is not acquainted with all the information on a particular area or question, they should refrain from posting, unless it's a question out of interest.

LizT

Aineoil wrote: »

Why would you argue with someone who re-quotes that Padraic O Conaire was involved in 1916? If you want to debate, know your subject area.

Mods, this is relevant, because if a person is not acquainted with all the information on a particular area or question, they should refrain from posting, unless it's a question out of interest.

After Hours is a discussion forum. People are perfectly entitled to contribute as they see fit as long as their posts don't violate the charter.

andyman

LizT wrote: »

If you're talking about doing a teaching degree as your first undergraduate degree, it's subsidised by the government. You may still pay registration fees etc but they're comparatively little compared to the UK, where fees can be 10k (sterling) a year. Not everyone gets grants but your average student gets their fees paid.

Students in the UK also have various options in which they can pay their fees, such as the student loan scheme.

Fees are comparatively little in comparison to the UK, nobody's denying that, but for someone like me who has to pay an extra few grand to live in the area, it's still a lot of money. That poster said that teachers "get the same grants as other students" and I was disgusted that teachers could be dismissed like that, just like I'd be disgusted if it was said about medical students, or nursing students or even jam-making students who don't "get the same grants as other students".

evolving_doors

LizT wrote: »

If you're talking about doing a teaching degree as your first undergraduate degree, it's subsidised by the government. You may still pay registration fees etc but they're comparatively little compared to the UK, where fees can be 10k (sterling) a year. Not everyone gets grants but your average student gets their fees paid.

Would nt you also say that a guard or a nurse or a doctor also gets their fees subsidised (what's the fees for templemore btw?)... BUT... They also get paid whilst training on the job...? Correct me if I'm wrong but fas apprenticeships got paid on block release too, no?

do teachers?

I never got the college grant either btw !

Boombastic

andyman wrote: »

Students in the UK also have various options in which they can pay their fees, such as the student loan scheme.

Fees are comparatively little in comparison to the UK, nobody's denying that, but for someone like me who has to pay an extra few grand to live in the area, it's still a lot of money. That poster said that teachers "get the same grants as other students" and I was disgusted that teachers could be dismissed like that, just like I'd be disgusted if it was said about medical students, or nursing students or even jam-making students who don't "get the same grants as other students".

I didn't say everyone receives grants but that everyone has the same opportunity to apply for them and if they meet the criteria, they will receive one. I'm guessing no matter what you choose to study in college your financial position would have been similar for the duration of the course. Teachers are not special in that regard.



It always comes back to the money with the teachers. How about the effect of long holidays on a child's development?

evolving_doors

LizT wrote: »

If you're talking about doing a teaching degree as your first undergraduate degree, it's subsidised by the government. You may still pay registration fees etc but they're comparatively little compared to the UK, where fees can be 10k (sterling) a year. Not everyone gets grants but your average student gets their fees paid.

Firstly, dont even mention UK fees...have a look at entrance jobs for teachers in the uk..Permanent positions straight off and a lot of the ones ive looked at offer to pay for any further training costs... In ireland teaching has become a part time profession, even for people well into their fifth year after leaving college.

Would nt you also say that a guard or a nurse or a doctor also gets their fees subsidised (what's the fees for templemore btw?)... BUT... They also get paid whilst training on the job...? Correct me if I'm wrong but fas apprenticeships got paid on block release too, no?

do teachers?

I never got the college grant either btw !

Boombastic

Armelodie wrote: »

..... In ireland teaching has become a part time profession, even for people well into their fifth year after leaving college.. !

Sure what else would it be only part time if your contact is for 22 hours / week, 174 days of the year?

evolving_doors

Boombastic wrote: »

I didn't say everyone receives grants but that everyone has the same opportunity to apply for them and if they meet the criteria, they will receive one. I'm guessing no matter what you choose to study in college your financial position would have been similar for the duration of the course. Teachers are not special in that regard.


It always comes back to the money with the teachers. How about the effect of long holidays on a child's development?

Everyone has the opportunity to play for the lotto also, doesn't mean they all win it.

Speaking of the effect of long holidays on childhood development, have you any research to help us along seeing as you raised the issue. It sounds like..."you teachers and your money would somebody PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"

what's your own profession btw?

andyman

Btw, LizT, I'm reporting you for plagiarism for stealing my "Location:" without relevant citing and referencing.

Red Pepper

Aineoil wrote: »

Yeah and Pádraic O Conaire was executed......you did re-quote that.

Come on now Aineoil, you re-quoted that Pearse was gay...

Since when is re-quoting a crime?

LizT

Armelodie wrote: »

Firstly, dont even mention UK fees...have a look at entrance jobs for teachers in the uk..Permanent positions straight off and a lot of the ones ive looked at offer to pay for any further training costs... In ireland teaching has become a part time profession, even for people well into their fifth year after leaving college.

Would nt you also say that a guard or a nurse or a doctor also gets their fees subsidised (what's the fees for templemore btw?)... BUT... They also get paid whilst training on the job...? Correct me if I'm wrong but fas apprenticeships got paid on block release too, no?

do teachers?

I never got the college grant either btw !

Not really sure what point you're trying to make here to be honest. There's plently of college courses that require their students to do work placements as part of their course and not get paid for it. Mine did, at a considerable cost to myself actually. The job situation for my profession is worse than the one for teachers in this country at the minute.

Student teachers aren't the only ones required to do unpaid placements. And in fairness, they know exactly what they're signing up for.

LizT

andyman wrote: »

Btw, LizT, I'm reporting you for plagiarism for stealing my "Location:" without relevant citing and referencing.

I, eh, put it in the footnotes
>_>
<_<
>_>

Been using it for ages and never noticed anyone else using it, high 5 location buddy

evolving_doors

Boombastic wrote: »

Sure what else would it be only part time if your contact is for 22 hours / week, 174 days of the year?

Do you know what contact time means? Do you think we sit in the staffroom smoking a pipe reading the Irish Times between classes?
Is this your perception of education today?

Just as a matter of interest Whats yer own job btw?

Foxtrol

Armelodie wrote: »

You havn't really been following the replies have you, basically (yet again) the summer holidays thing are a legacy issue and teachers get paid on a 9/12 pro rata basis.

If you want me to work the summer Im all for it. Presume you are happy to give me a pay rise too.

Btw teachers dont get paid for the summer..

9/12

Answer that.

Took a day off this but once again it’s gone around in a circle. Like the last time this argument was made, when teachers say they want more money for working anytime outside of the 9 months it really only highlights how high their pro-rata rate is and it doesn’t help their position (which is the exact reason teachers/unions don’t ever mentioning the 9/12 thing when comparing salaries to other professions).

Boombastic

Armelodie wrote: »

...Speaking of the effect of long holidays on childhood development, have you any research to help us along seeing as you raised the issue....?

Ok seen as there is an increase in children who's first language is not English and other vulnerable students from poor backgrounds and literacy problems, here's some about how learning loss over the summer holidays impacts negatively on them
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_learning_loss

silverlinings

There are many reasons behind the "long" holidays teachers get. I am a qualified primary teacher and I have worked both here in national schools and abroad in private schools. When I worked abroad I taught 5-7 year olds and 7-9 year olds. We taught from 8 until 3.10, 5 days a week, we had exams every 4 weeks and then finals at the end of each term.I should also say with those exams I would have received on average 300 exams over 2 nights to be corrected and handed back by the end of the week. Having been at the receiving end of those parents crying, shouting, pleading and begging for the hours in school to be lessened, I don't think we should be complaining at all. The issue is not really how many hours a teacher works its more about the quality of work put in during those hours. The children I taught abroad would be absolutely burned out from work come 2o'clock and I was expected to drag another hour of work out of them. We had a lot less holidays than schools here do and let me tell you it certainly did not make us a more productive school in any sense, and I am including teachers and students here.

The holidays are a time for the children and teachers to recuperate and re-energize. Teachers have a high burn out rate because like it or not we have a busy job from the moment you step foot in the classroom your attention is with the 20 or so children in your care, you must cater to all their learning needs, special needs and sensitivities as well as getting through a curriculum. I am not saying that teaching is the hardest job in the world but I would like to see people who bad mouth teachers try it and see how they fare...don't knock it til you've tried it!

evolving_doors

LizT wrote: »

Not really sure what point you're trying to make here to be honest. There's plently of college courses that require their students to do work placements as part of their course and not get paid for it. Mine did, at a considerable cost to myself actually. The job situation for my profession is worse than the one for teachers in this country at the minute.

Student teachers aren't the only ones required to do unpaid placements. And in fairness, they know exactly what they're signing up for.

Sorry I thought you were supposed to be following this thread...you seem a little distracted with andyman...

my whole point came from a comment from someone that teachers should get paid less than guards... The issue I felt was that you can;t compare professions and was highlighting the disparity between payment and training in other professions. The fact that subsequent posters have shown that their experiences are different shows that you just cant compare professions.

Ive tried to compare but failed, but I've succeeded in proving that you cant compare,thanks to everyone elses help.

The fact that other posters still persist in comparing teaching to other jobs is dragging this thread off topic, as there are too many variables with comparing jobs, not to mention the public vs. private sector 'debate'.

So if people still persist in comparing I think the best way forward is for me to ask what their profession is?

But alas, some people on here are well equipped to criticise other peoples jobs, but when it comes to their own they are a little bit shy.

LizT

Armelodie wrote: »

Sorry I thought you were supposed to be following this thread...you seem a little distracted with andyman...

my whole point came from a comment from someone that teachers should get paid less than guards... The issue I felt was that you can;t compare professions and was highlighting the disparity between payment and training in other professions. The fact that subsequent posters have shown that their experiences are different shows that you just cant compare professions.

Ive tried to compare but failed, but I've succeeded in proving that you cant compare,thanks to everyone elses help.

The fact that other posters still persist in comparing teachers to other jobs is dragging this thread off topic, as there are too many variables with comparing jobs, not to mention the public vs. private sector 'debate'.

So if people still persist in comparing I think the best way forward is for me to ask what their profession is?

But alas, some people on here are well equipped to criticise other peoples jobs, but when it comes to the own they are a little bit shy.

Little tip, no need for the petty jibes, it completely undermines the point you're trying to make.

If I told you what my job is (starting next week actually), you'd laugh You seem to assume I have some sort of axe to grind with teachers when the reality is in fact the opposite.

evolving_doors

Foxtrol wrote: »

Took a day off this but once again it’s gone around in a circle. Like the last time this argument was made, when teachers say they want more money for working anytime outside of the 9 months it really only highlights how high their pro-rata rate is and it doesn’t help their position (which is the exact reason teachers/unions don’t ever mentioning the 9/12 thing when comparing salaries to other professions).

Im glad you agree that it's come back around the circle so I hope we can all accept what this 9/12 fraction means. Also the 3 months is a legacy issue with saving the hay and all that.

Because teachers unions are inept... have a look at the CP2 thread on T&L forum. Many Teachers (not all mind!) have nothing but disdain for the unions and their selling out of the profession.

Whats your own profession BTW foxtroll? Just so we can attempt to compare.