**Pilot Schools Project Maths Paper 1 - Before/After**

MatthewRud

So I'm in one of the 24 pilot schools. I've no idea what way this is working, but as far as I can understand I'm in the Phase 3 group. Taking both paper 1 & 2 Project Maths HL.

I've been doing the department Sample Paper 1 Phase 3 2012. It is ridiculously difficult. Infact, probably the hardest paper I've ever done out of all the other non-department samples. I would almost consider it more difficult than last years Paper 1 (Phase 2).

Is my exam seriously going to be like this? Because if it is this difficult, I can see a lot of people freaking out. The department has only provided one sample paper this year, and no others seem to match up in difficultly. What am I to go by, and what am I to expect?

Also, are pilot schools sitting the same paper 2 as non-pilot schools? I don't see how that could go down well otherwise. Pilot schools get a much tougher exam than the rest; student-x doesn't get the grades to do his college course and then they forever pay the price of being the guinea pig.

It all seems a bit of a mess to me. The Project Maths website doesn't seem to make it entirely clear either. Especially not nice being left with the feeling that the powers-at-be are messing around with my Leaving Certificate, testing the water with take-no-prisoners exams.

Astrozombies

I'm unfortunately one of the 24 pilot schools doing the full course too. To be frank I don't fine the 2012 sample paper phase 3 that hard, and that's suprising since I am dreadful at maths. Question 3 is fairly hard, as is that one with the graph, but the rest is stuff that can be attempted, with some of it even abit too easy (that 2nd last question with the runner) Ive no idea what I'm in for next Friday however. Very scary stuff, considering I got a D2 in HL in the mocks, I really dont wanna fail!
I agree it's completely unfair that we should be the ones used as guinea pigs, but I have heard people say that they might of made the paper easy, considering it's the first year for project maths P1&P2 and they WANT us to excell. They havent invested all this money in a completely different way of teaching maths to have to backfire on them.

dmca93

I'm also one of 24 pilot schools and really have no idea what to expect. I'm doing honors but have done very little work with it, focusing on other subjects foolishly enough. My one hope is that since they do want to make it appear as though Project Maths is working the marking scheme will end up being very generous, I hope.

irishdude11

Can anyone explain to me why the dept of education brought in this ridiculous policy of introducing a new maths course framework on students who were already several years into 2nd level education instead of doing the sensible and obvious thing of starting the new framework with incoming 1st year students?

The pilot schools have it the worst of all, they are being disadvantaged against students from every other school in ireland.

reznov

I Sincerely feel the pilot schools are hard done by the disorganised approach to mathematical examination. The lack of sample papers is felt by non-pilot schools as they sit paper two this year. Anyone link me to a paper one for pilot schools? Curious to see how radically the exam will change in the coming years.

MatthewRud

Astrozombies wrote: »

I'm unfortunately one of the 24 pilot schools doing the full course too. To be frank I don't fine the 2012 sample paper phase 3 that hard, and that's suprising since I am dreadful at maths. Question 3 is fairly hard, as is that one with the graph, but the rest is stuff that can be attempted, with some of it even abit too easy (that 2nd last question with the runner) Ive no idea what I'm in for next Friday however. Very scary stuff, considering I got a D2 in HL in the mocks, I really dont wanna fail!
I agree it's completely unfair that we should be the ones used as guinea pigs, but I have heard people say that they might of made the paper easy, considering it's the first year for project maths P1&P2 and they WANT us to excell. They havent invested all this money in a completely different way of teaching maths to have to backfire on them.

I guess I didn't find it too hard at parts. Sadly I'm someone who concentrates on what I didn't get, and panics when I get hit with one of those short stories that makes no sense. Some of those questions are ridiculously easy as you've said, but the hard ones are horrible for some if you don't get it out then you can't complete the rest of the question as a result. I got a C1 in mocks, and thought I may have a chance of improving that with the LC.

Seriously, whoever came up with the idea of giving us a paragraph to read and decipher the question is crazy. Half the time, they describe the questions terribly and leave it completely open interpretation (from a lot of the non-department samples I've done anyway). I feel for the students who got that rings question last year. More like an English exam than Maths. When you caught onto it, it actually turned out rather simple, that is until you figured out the riddle.

Lets hope they make the exam easy, but I have a feeling they won't. They need to test the water and see how far they can push us, so they can give the non-pilot schools a fair exam in 3 years time.

@reznov - Here is the Paper 1 Phase 3 Department Sample: http://www.examinations.ie/schools/Project_Maths_Phase3_Paper_I_Higher_Level.pdf

What's even worse is that the sample they gave pilot schools last year for Paper 1 is exactly the same, except for the last section. Seriously, how lazy can they be that they can't give us a new sample to work from. They know the first two sections are relevant to us, and we are in need of more samples from the department to work from. Are they have a laugh? See for yourselves:

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/Project_Maths_Phase_2_P1_Higher_Level.pdf

Astrozombies

I hate project maths as Ive mentioned before, but yesterday I decided I'm dropping down to ordinary level. I think I could handle the paper.. barely, but I got a D2 in the mocks with out studying, so I just really don't want to jeopardize my chances of getting into a college by getting less than D3 in maths
I know I wont be able to answer more than half of the questions, and from doing some OL papers last night I feel I could do SO much better if I was doing ordinary level, as in, possibly get a B1/A2! which would be near enough the same points I'd get if I get a D3 in HL (with the 25 extra points)
It'll be a relief not doing HL project maths but this means Ill have to get A2's in 3 of my best subjects, two B1's and than C1 to get about 470..

reznov

MatthewRud wrote: »

I guess I didn't find it too hard at parts. Sadly I'm someone who concentrates on what I didn't get, and panics when I get hit with one of those short stories that makes no sense. Some of those questions are ridiculously easy as you've said, but the hard ones are horrible for some if you don't get it out then you can't complete the rest of the question as a result. I got a C1 in mocks, and thought I may have a chance of improving that with the LC.

Seriously, whoever came up with the idea of giving us a paragraph to read and decipher the question is crazy. Half the time, they describe the questions terribly and leave it completely open interpretation (from a lot of the non-department samples I've done anyway). I feel for the students who got that rings question last year. More like an English exam than Maths. When you caught onto it, it actually turned out rather simple, that is until you figured out the riddle.

Lets hope they make the exam easy, but I have a feeling they won't. They need to test the water and see how far they can push us, so they can give the non-pilot schools a fair exam in 3 years time.

@reznov - Here is the Paper 1 Phase 3 Department Sample: http://www.examinations.ie/schools/Project_Maths_Phase3_Paper_I_Higher_Level.pdf

What's even worse is that the sample they gave pilot schools last year for Paper 1 is exactly the same, except for the last section. Seriously, how lazy can they be that they can't give us a new sample to work from. They know the first two sections are relevant to us, and we are in need of more samples from the department to work from. Are they have a laugh? See for yourselves:

http://www.examinations.ie/schools/Project_Maths_Phase_2_P1_Higher_Level.pdf

What was the point of changing the exam structure? Were the costs of paper too great so they decided to print squares on the actual exam? You need to know just as much for the new paper one, as for the old. It's simply a different format with integration and differentiation simplified to death. The lengthy word problems leave the question open to several interpretations and may hinder the performance of non-English speaking individuals. Pointless reform which will not Change the mentality of students towards HL. May in fact repel people from studying Maths at third year.

MatthewRud

reznov wrote: »

What was the point of changing the exam structure? Were the costs of paper too great so they decided to print squares on the actual exam? You need to know just as much for the new paper one, as for the old. It's simply a different format with integration and differentiation simplified to death. The lengthy word problems leave the question open to several interpretations and may hinder the performance of non-English speaking individuals. Pointless reform which will not Change the mentality of students towards HL. May in fact repel people from studying Maths at third year.

Hence why they decided to give Higher Level students 25 extra points this year. Apparently they are thinking of doing the same to Irish (which coincidently they have also changed the course of, confusing some people).

Eventually it will just become a situation where different subjects warrant different points for an A grade.

Canard

But the Irish changes simplified the course and made it manageable. Hardly confusing...

It'd make a lot of sense if they just made it so a C3 in HL maths was worth more for maths courses or languages were worth more for language courses. But no. :rolleyes:

Cruel Sun

Patchy~ wrote: »

It'd make a lot of sense if they just made it so a C3 in HL maths was worth more for maths courses or languages were worth more for language courses. But no. :rolleyes:

I know that's what I was thinking as well. Why should someone get somebody elses place in an English course just because there good at Math. So Stupid. :mad:

MatthewRud

Patchy~ wrote: »

But the Irish changes simplified the course and made it manageable. Hardly confusing...

It'd make a lot of sense if they just made it so a C3 in HL maths was worth more for maths courses or languages were worth more for language courses. But no. :rolleyes:

Well for a while with Irish, my teacher anyway, didn't seem to know what exactly was going on regards to the Oral examinations and how the exam papers would be. It took a while for them to come through. But anyway I don't care about Irish at all; I'm in pass anyway.

It would make sense if the Maths extra points were for maths only courses, but then there would be arguments for similar situations for other subjects. You could argue that 25 extra points for Art for Art-based college courses, or something along those lines (just an example). Then our system will quickly become one like the A-Levels and UCAS system, in which your subject choices are relevant to the course you choose (which really they sort-of should be, but obviously as it is they don't really need to be).

Really, in my opinion, the whole situation with Maths at the moment is a bit of a mess. The lack of official exam papers, and unclarity regarding exams (and course content in some cases). Difficult not to feel hard done by. I can imagine if they give us a bad exam and don't mark it easily, that will be the final straw for many. And at that, if they have to start amending the marking scheme to give high marks to basic attempts, it sort-of defies the principal of an exam in the first place, no?

caraclaire

Does anyone know if there are solutions to the sample paper 1s anywhere on the internet??

Flabangav

What did you guys think of the paper?

That Handsome Devil

I know its only 24 schools, but wondering if there's anyone else on boards who did this.

Didn't find it awful myself, long questions weren't bad. The Hannah/Thomas was pretty grand, and differentiation (well, the hole in the cylinder one) was the ony I was finding a bit awkward.

Out of the short questions, question 2 was a bit weird. Reading it a few times though I got it. All in all, I thought it wasn't that bad, feeling cautiously optimistic!

Anyone else?

Astrozombies

I dropped to OL today, but it was handy! answered every Q except 6 and 9 part (b)
Hoping for a B2/B1!

ismiseaoife

Did the Ordinary.. thought it was tough enough, a lot of stuff you couldn't prepare for.. Tried to answer everything though, so that should get me something

marieonair

My daughter is in one of the 24 pilot schools doing project maths which means she was doing phase three this year, all project maths. She did the ordinary paper today and there were questions on it that they had never seen before. The whole thing is a shambles, they only had one sample paper, part of last year's leaving cert paper and then the mock paper to go on for revision What was on the sample paper didn't come at all today. It is so unfair that some students are having to do an all project maths paper and others arn't? Why on earth did they introduce this type of maths for students who were already a few years into the other maths? Surely it would have made more sense to start a new framework for incoming first years?

Xfire Elect

Yeah, I thought it was alright. The long questions were grand. The cone was nice, as was the water in the cylinder. Questions 2 and 3 though were quite difficult, especially that set question. Took me a while to get my head around it, and I still have problems with the question itself (if y=0 that means there shouldn't be any empty sets, right?).

Zaffy

Just subscribing to this thread to see how other people did. Hi all.

Naomi00

Does everyone do the same paper 2 or do we have a phase 3 paper?

Flabangav

I did the Honours paper and I thought it was a bit of a shambles, for me!

afc4life

I did the OL Paper of it today! I thought it was a shocking paper to be honest, some of my friends thought it was ok but I felt like it was completely different to the mock paper and the sample paper given out! I got a B1 in the mocks and was hoping for an A in this but it went terrible, completely different paper to other ones! Im ****ing pissed, it could **** up my whole leaving cert as I dont really have a back up subject for points!

That Handsome Devil

Xfire Elect wrote: »

Yeah, I thought it was alright. The long questions were grand. The cone was nice, as was the water in the cylinder. Questions 2 and 3 though were quite difficult, especially that set question. Took me a while to get my head around it, and I still have problems with the question itself (if y=0 that means there shouldn't be any empty sets, right?).

Well no, as x is also an integer, so R/Q intersect G (not sure if I'm saying that right, the same line of thought as the bit already shaded) is empty aswell, as X can't be irrational.

And as y can be 0, all integers are in the set of G, so the bit for the set of integers outside G is empty

Xfire Elect

That Handsome Devil wrote: »

Well no, as x is also an integer, so R/Q intersect G (not sure if I'm saying that right, the same line of thought as the bit already shaded) is empty aswell, as X can't be irrational.

Of course. Sorry, I forgot that part. I did shade in those parts.

And as y can be 0, all integers are in the set of G, so the bit for the set of integers outside G is empty

See now that makes sense. Didn't really expect to get anywhere near right anyway, just kind of took an educated guess.

MatthewRud

Found the paper today tough enough. Higher level. Some of it was way too vague, bit of a mess really. I did alright, hoped to do better. Know a lot of people who came out in bits though. Questions 2 & 3 were tough, and the last question was a bit more paper 2 I felt with the continuous and discrete data. Not sure that should really have been in there.

Load of people in ordinary level apparently felt the exam was too tough.

Anxious Parent

My Daughter is in one of the so-called PILOT schools and sat the the higher level Paper yesterday. She was devestated. Having got straight A's in Junior Cert and an A1 in maths in mocks, she was expecting to sail through maths. The pressure of the UNKNOWN was too much. Not having a choice, lack of sample papers, vagueness from Dept, no textbook, inept handouts, all contributed to my daughter nearly having a nervous breakdown. Is there anyone OUT THERE?
I am inarticulate with upset that THEY would subject our kids to this kind of experimentation and all under the guise of PROGRESS.
Parents voice your concern at this carry on.

Zaffy

Anxious Parent wrote: »

My Daughter is in one of the so-called PILOT schools and sat the the higher level Paper yesterday. She was devestated. Having got straight A's in Junior Cert and an A1 in maths in mocks, she was expecting to sail through maths. The pressure of the UNKNOWN was too much. Not having a choice, lack of sample papers, vagueness from Dept, no textbook, inept handouts, all contributed to my daughter nearly having a nervous breakdown. Is there anyone OUT THERE?
I am inarticulate with upset that THEY would subject our kids to this kind of experimentation and all under the guise of PROGRESS.
Parents voice your concern at this carry on.

1. Choice - This is due to in the old system, schools would simply not teach their students certain areas/aspects of the course. The taking away of choice is to counteract that, as all maths is needed in this day and age.

2. Sample Papers - Yes, that's a fair enough point, but if you think ours is bad, think about last year's students.

3. Vagueness - There is a syllabus online. If you know that, then can apply it in the correct way, you should be able to solve it. Once again, feel for last year's students

4. Textbook - There are textbooks, eg, Active Maths. I'm fairly sure your daughter should have it.

5. Inept Handouts - That's the fault of your daughter's teacher if he's/she's not giving out informative sheets.

6. 'Subject our kids' - Unfortunately, if they are to bring in a new course, they need to test it. Your child was in one of the 24 selected schools. It happens. If your daughter had got an easy test, you would not be complaining right now. Some students had to be the pioneers, your daughter was one.

7. Why have you capitalised random words in your post?

If your daughter is proficent in maths, then she will be above everyone else. Just feel for all those poor souls who didn't get A1s in the mocks, or As in the junior certificate, they must be feeling so much worse. If your daughter is good at maths, then the marks will reflect that.

The scores will be done in a bell curve, with the above average getting above average, and the below average getting below average, if your daughter is as good as you say she is, then she'll be fine.

MatthewRud

Anxious Parent wrote: »

My Daughter is in one of the so-called PILOT schools and sat the the higher level Paper yesterday. She was devestated. Having got straight A's in Junior Cert and an A1 in maths in mocks, she was expecting to sail through maths. The pressure of the UNKNOWN was too much. Not having a choice, lack of sample papers, vagueness from Dept, no textbook, inept handouts, all contributed to my daughter nearly having a nervous breakdown. Is there anyone OUT THERE?
I am inarticulate with upset that THEY would subject our kids to this kind of experimentation and all under the guise of PROGRESS.
Parents voice your concern at this carry on.

That seriously sounds like a lack of information coming from the teacher. I was given probably well over 50 sheets throughout the year regarding course amendments, content not in the textbooks, and more. My teacher was very good, and she made sure we were well aware of all the possibilities.

If she got an A in the mocks, surely that exam would have been similar to the paper she was getting? There are courses run for Pilot school teachers to make sure they know what to teach and how to teach it, so the teacher should have known and made sure the mock reflected that. Even better, if it had been a department mock then there wouldn't have been much of a difference. Nature of the mocks would say that it would have been even harder than the actual exam. No?

There is a textbook, Active Maths. She should have it. We do.

Granted, I definitely agree with lack of sample papers by the department. The one they provided this year was just the one from last year, with a different section C to conform with this years exam. An absolute disgrace, I feel. However, the NCCA made quite a few samples, along with some others. Coming up to the exam, I had done about 5 sample papers. Definitely not unreasonable.

The exam was tough, but that should have been expected. Last years was just as bad, if not worse. That should really have been a clear indication of what to expect.

That said, I'm not really happy with how my exam went, but chances are they will mark the exams easily. They need to really, to cure some apprehension about the exam for future years and make Project Maths come across as a success. Last year students who came out in tears got A's and B's.

sarkyba

Zaffy wrote: »

1. Choice - This is due to in the old system, schools would simply not teach their students certain areas/aspects of the course. The taking away of choice is to counteract that, as all maths is needed in this day and age.

2. Sample Papers - Yes, that's a fair enough point, but if you think ours is bad, think about last year's students.

3. Vagueness - There is a syllabus online. If you know that, then can apply it in the correct way, you should be able to solve it. Once again, feel for last year's students

4. Textbook - There are textbooks, eg, Active Maths. I'm fairly sure your daughter should have it.

5. Inept Handouts - That's the fault of your daughter's teacher if he's/she's not giving out informative sheets.

6. 'Subject our kids' - Unfortunately, if they are to bring in a new course, they need to test it. Your child was in one of the 24 selected schools. It happens. If your daughter had got an easy test, you would not be complaining right now. Some students had to be the pioneers, your daughter was one.

7. Why have you capitalised random words in your post?

If your daughter is proficent in maths, then she will be above everyone else. Just feel for all those poor souls who didn't get A1s in the mocks, or As in the junior certificate, they must be feeling so much worse. If your daughter is good at maths, then the marks will reflect that.

The scores will be done in a bell curve, with the above average getting above average, and the below average getting below average, if your daughter is as good as you say she is, then she'll be fine.

Exactly, couldn't agree more.

Anxious Parent

Check out comments on
http://www.projectmaths.com/index.php/2012/06/leaving-cert-maths-2012-paper-1-comments/
Also re "inept handouts" this was in reference to what the Department has provided.
The Teacher concerned was extremely committed and capable.