450 job losses announced at Iarnród Éireann

Judgement Day

bazza1 - I take it from your comments that you're employed by CIE/IE? I have no doubt that most CIE/IE employees go about their required duties with due diligence but, in many cases, their duties have disappeared while their positions remain. The trouble is that nobody represents the users interests, the unions represent their members and don't give a damn about the future of the railways as long as their members get the appropriate severance packages when they lose their jobs; senior management just drift off to other State organisations while the messers at the top receive generous golden handshakes. The public see rising fares, cutbacks in services, and the railway daily becomes less relevant to a growing number of people. CIE is no longer fit for purpose, if it ever was, and a new organisation with the workers having a vested interest in the success of the business is needed. However, this is Ireland where talk is cheap and nothing is going to change anytime soon.

n97 mini

Sounds like they're downsizing rather than axing people. Lot of hoo-ha about nothing really.

Heisenberg1

Savings can be made by reducing 8car Darts to 4car at all off peak times and at weekends,unless big events are on likewise the same with commuter trains end all empty passenger traffic run trains in service which would increase train paths but would not increase the cost base any further. Small changes can reap big results. Provide the service and people will use it. Maybe then IE might start to recruit again win win for everybody.

bazza1

JD
I do work for IE. I earn just above the National average earnings after 29 years service.
My workload has increased over the last 3 years due to a shortage of staff in our department.
I honestly dont know of any staff in my location that are employed with nothing to do!
Maybe those folk in the canteen eating strawberries and quaffing champagne all day need to be checked out!
We always come back to providing a service or being cost effective. Despite increased outsourcing and staff reductions, costs still rise. If we make savings with our austerity measures, further cuts in subvention will occur and we are back to square one.
All our internal departmental budgets are cut again with the money transferred to operations so that passengers do not suffer drop in service of the high safety standards that exist in IE.
The privatisation chestnut will continue to be the elephant in the room. Any fool can run Dublin- Belfast, Dublin - Cork, peak DART and make a profit. We are a small railway by Euro standards so it will be difficult to find a buyer who would not profiteer and asset strip the company. Varadkar wants to divest the Government of its responsibility to Irish transport. We see the same with Dublin Corporation and the waste collection fiasco!

Trhiggy83

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

The quicker the rail industry is privatized the better, you will only see a company that is run like a proper business then.

Expect everything to close except Dublin-Cork, the DART and the Dublin Commuter services if that happens.

Andremac96

the government should pay to keep them in jobs its a win win for them no more people on the dole and tax still coming in

Andremac96

bazza1 wrote: »

JD
I do work for IE. I earn just above the National average earnings after 29 years service.
My workload has increased over the last 3 years due to a shortage of staff in our department.
I honestly dont know of any staff in my location that are employed with nothing to do!
Maybe those folk in the canteen eating strawberries and quaffing champagne all day need to be checked out!
We always come back to providing a service or being cost effective. Despite increased outsourcing and staff reductions, costs still rise. If we make savings with our austerity measures, further cuts in subvention will occur and we are back to square one.
All our internal departmental budgets are cut again with the money transferred to operations so that passengers do not suffer drop in service of the high safety standards that exist in IE.
The privatisation chestnut will continue to be the elephant in the room. Any fool can run Dublin- Belfast, Dublin - Cork, peak DART and make a profit. We are a small railway by Euro standards so it will be difficult to find a buyer who would not profiteer and asset strip the company. Varadkar wants to divest the Government of its responsibility to Irish transport. We see the same with Dublin Corporation and the waste collection fiasco!

if you dont mind me asking how much would you get after 29 years

THENORTHSIDER

SMASH THE UNIONS wrote: »

I've been dreaming of this day for years. IE's bloated workforce mostly consists of (in my experience) rude, poorly educated, middle-aged men who have held the job since they inherited it from their fathers after they dropped out of school aged 14. The company is notoriously difficult to break into, especially for educated college graduates. Management will see you as a threat to their own cushy job.

Don't forget, we taxpayers are essentially paying their wages via the millions in subsidies IE receives. So a saving for the company is a saving for us. Vending machines are far more efficient for ticket sales, as seen in London, Toronto, NY and practically every other city in the world. The unions are only preventing progress to protect their increasingly redundant jobs.

Wish I had you as my boss:eek:

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Limerick has the most services from Heuston when including connections at Limerick J.

I was thinking of the direct services that were cut back a few years ago to save costs. They could come back if IE make the Cork services faster by reducing stops.

Guy:Incognito

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

Vote yes for investment and jobs

Yep, a bloated public sector is exactly what we need, they must be stopped from shedding staff............

Hilly Bill

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

Not all contracts had expired, and yes they were forced to go therefore the contracts were breached.

Any proof of this or are you just stirring the pot?

Its the contracts of the temporary staff that wont get renewed if their is no need for them anymore. A lot would be office workers for various projects.
No breach of contract or forced to leave.
If you have a contract for say 2 years then you could be let go anytime within that 2 years depending on the workload.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Sounds like they're downsizing rather than axing people. Lot of hoo-ha about nothing really.

I say thats true at the moment but i would say the axe could be sharpened for later use.

CIE

kc56 wrote: »

The Croke Park Agreement does not apply to IE; it only applies to government departments and agencies not to semi-state bodies and companies like IE!

IE have been reducing staff numbers by about 100-150 per year so 450 over 4 years is a continuation of this. IE need less staff due to increasing automation and other efficiencies such as there is no requirement for guards on trains and the widespread use of driver only trains. In addition a lot of work is now contracted out to the private sector - catering, cleaning, engine maintenance, some track maintenance and most major projects. Switching to ICRs has also reduced the need for shunting staff at terminal stations except where freight still operates.

It should also be remembered that IE now operate more intercity services than before, except to Limerick, with diminished state subsidies. Not too long ago there were 3 services to Sligo; today there are 8.

You actually trust automation? I don't. A robot is GIGO and can fail suddenly.

Things are going to get more antisocial the more the economy is squeezed. I would prefer more personnel on a train rather than less. Putting several hundred people's lives in the hands of one person is not a laughing matter.

The 22000 class has nothing to do with not needing shunting staff. There were Mark 3 push-pulls that had the same capability. Instead IE blows money on more DMUs that weren't needed when all they needed was more cab cars.

foggy_lad

gsxr1 wrote: »

This is simply not true. Contractors, who can lose there job in a second, out- preform by far most staff who cant be sacked.
Result equals much more productivity.
Contractors with IR supervision is whats happening now.

Im guessing there is going to be more of it in the future.

Just as long as the guys doing the supervision of contractors are not getting paid handsomely for doing very little.

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

Ah, I see, it's a bit like having an Eircom Phonewatch alarm then - the alarm goes off and a team of gardai are instantly despatched ....are we living in the same country? :rolleyes:

And you then get targeted by the criminal element and possibly assaulted or stabbed for bringin the law down on them. It is all about making the passenger responsible for their own safety on trains.

rainbowdash

As regards people doing nothing, I know somebody who was a chef in a public service canteen, and when the canteen got outsourced he was told to keep his head down for a few years until he retired, so basically he had nothing to do.

I also know somebody who worked in an airport and when their job became obsolete they were still employed with nothing to do.


That's just the way it is, it's not right or fair to just sack these people selectively. I am sure there are many people in the PS who no longer have much to do, everything from Latin teachers to Telex machine operators but that's just the way it is.

Very few people would want to be willingly putting down the years in an office with nothing to do, most would want to be productive!

foggy_lad

rainbowdash wrote: »

As regards people doing nothing, I know somebody who was a chef in a public service canteen, and when the canteen got outsourced he was told to keep his head down for a few years until he retired, so basically he had nothing to do.

I also know somebody who worked in an airport and when their job became obsolete they were still employed with nothing to do.


That's just the way it is, it's not right or fair to just sack these people selectively. I am sure there are many people in the PS who no longer have much to do, everything from Latin teachers to Telex machine operators but that's just the way it is.

Very few people would want to be willingly putting down the years in an office with nothing to do, most would want to be productive!

People in the private sector retrain but in Irish rail they just do the gardening and win best station awards.

kc56

CIE wrote: »

You actually trust automation? I don't. A robot is GIGO and can fail suddenly.

Things are going to get more antisocial the more the economy is squeezed. I would prefer more personnel on a train rather than less. Putting several hundred people's lives in the hands of one person is not a laughing matter.

The 22000 class has nothing to do with not needing shunting staff. There were Mark 3 push-pulls that had the same capability. Instead IE blows money on more DMUs that weren't needed when all they needed was more cab cars.

By automation I'm talking about signalling, level crossing, TVM, ticket validators etc.

Let's look at PPs. IE have 63 ICR sets, 15 are 6-car and 48 are 3-car. Let's say that of the 48 3-car, 32 operate as 2x3 and the remaining 16 as 3-car. That totals 47 sets. Add in 7 Mk4 and 3 Enterprise and you have 57 sets.

IE have only 23 locos capable of PP use. They would need to convert the remaining 11 201 and acquire at least 24 more locos and more likely 30+ to allows for spares. There were only about 160 Mk3 coaches compared with 234 ICR so additional rolling stock would be required. 201 locos are to expensive to use on short trains so a mix of lower powered locos would also be required. Apparently, Mk3 sets of less that 6-7 coaches can't do 100mph due to a braking issue.

Rather than simply re-furbishing the Mk3s and converting all to push-pull, estimated at over 250,000 per coach, they would also have needed a major locomotive purchase and additional coaches. Economically, running 3-car loco hauled PPs is much more expensive than ICR and many 3-car services would not exist. These arguments enabled IE to make the case for new ICR rather than continuing with the Mk3 fleet.

An before anyone mentioned scrapped 121,141 and 181 locos remember that these were over 50 years old and the 071s are around 40 years old. Would you really want a railway depending on 60-70 year locos??

Hilly Bill

gsxr1 wrote: »

This is simply not true. Contractors, who can lose there job in a second, out- preform by far most staff who cant be sacked.
Result equals much more productivity.
Contractors with IR supervision is whats happening now.

Im guessing there is going to be more of it in the future.

Give us an example.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just as long as the guys doing the supervision of contractors are not getting paid handsomely for doing very little.

Very little? explain please.

What is it to you what anyone gets paid?

gsxr1

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just as long as the guys doing the supervision of contractors are not getting paid handsomely for doing very little.

Most if not all IR foremen with contractors are very hands on and work very hard on every job. Dedicated to their jobs.

Losty Dublin

CIE wrote: »

There were Mark 3 push-pulls that had the same capability. Instead IE blows money on more DMUs that weren't needed when all they needed was more cab cars.

It was looked at initially but it was found to be impractical for what benefit it provided. There were just 5 Mark 3 push pull sets with under carriage generators for light and heating; the older stock relied on a generator van. A minimum of 12 DVT's would have been needed, either as retro fits of generator vans or other stock (This would require costly rebuilds) or as new off the peg orders. Once done, all locomotives in traffic would have also required to be fitted with the requisite push pull control gear to haul the trains plus all mark 3 carriages would require similar wiring for the controls.

In addition to this, the new and old stock would have been unable to work together without wholesale refitting of the train electric generation systems; the PP sets had generators fitted underneath each set whereas the older Mark 3's relied on the generator van for their onboard power and heat.

This compares with the 22000 units which offers 63 sets in total. Even had Mark 2 and 3 and Cravens been left in traffic, there wouldn't have been as much availability to hand.

WhatNowForUs?

Andremac96 wrote: »

the government should pay to keep them in jobs its a win win for them no more people on the dole and tax still coming in

You forgot the sarcastic head. Its this one (:rolleyes:).

dowlingm

I agree with kc56 - employ the same number of people but put more of them on trains, less of them opening gates. Any "Intercity" designated train should have a customer service person on board.

However, what IE needs to produce now is their staffing plan for after the split into infrastructure and operations. Perhaps some of the current cuts are to ensure that one or the other isn't totally overstaffed and then there is no ability to redeploy anyway?

end of the road

in all fairness though, the mark 2s cravens 121s 141s and 181s were life expired when they were with-drawn were they not? most of the mark 2s couldn't have been left in traffic even if they wanted to?
at least with the mark 3 refurbishment it would mean work for the 201s currently in storage. now it seems the whole lot will end up being scrapped eventually. i don't believe IE'S costs in relation to the mark 3 refurbishment, how come britain is doing it? surely theirs a contractor over there who would have done our ones for a good price? they bought them, they should have been told to stick with them. its an emerging thing with IE to with-draw young rolling stock, will we see some 22 ks in storage in the future? possibly.

kc56

kc56 wrote: »

An before anyone mentioned scrapped 121,141 and 181 locos remember that these were over 50 years old and the 071s are around 40 years old. Would you really want a railway depending on 60-70 year locos??

As someone in the know, it wouldn't bother me. These locos can keep going once they're looked after and parts continue to be available. The current example is the body overhaul programme for the 071s. Despite the fact that the engine in the 121s and 141s is no longer supported (EMD 567), they were adapted to take the power assemblies from the EMD 645 (which is still supported) so this means that they could still be maintained for many years to come. However, regular Joe Soap passengers treat rolling stock age in the same way as buses or cars, so a 40-50 year old loco sounds antiquated to them - despite the fact that internally it's much healthier than a car of that age.

I'm still of the opinion that the Mark 3s should have been adapted and refurbished rather than replaced. I don't think the same of the Cravens and Mark 2s though. So we would have had to purchase new coaches or railcars anyway.

This is way off topic though.

end of the road

Karsini wrote: »

regular Joe Soap passengers treat rolling stock age in the same way as buses or cars, so a 40-50 year old loco sounds antiquated to them - despite the fact that internally it's much healthier than a car of that age.

if it looks in good condition or they don't find out its 40 or 50 years old they won't know the difference. same with carriges, lots of modifications to make them look new and they won't know anything.

Karsini wrote: »

I'm still of the opinion that the Mark 3s should have been adapted and refurbished rather than replaced.

so am i.. i don't believ IE couldn't get them refurbished cheeper. britain could have just as easily scrapped their mark 3s and bought new rolling stock to replace them but they didn't.

Karsini wrote: »

I don't think the same of the Cravens and Mark 2s though.

but were they in good enough condition anyway for them to be refurbished? the mark 2s which operated rosslare dublin certainly weren't.

dowlingm

end of the road - there would certainly be scope to at least life extend the 071s for a couple of more decades in addition to the 3s, it just depends how much you want to and is there demand for them to make back the investment. VIA Rail Canada has been stripping down 1980s F40PH-2s (same engine as 071 except bigger) to the frame and fully overhauling the engines looking to get another 15-20 years of 90-95mph service from them. Indeed, at least until recently you could get EMD645 locomotives "as new" from MotivePower and EMD710s will go at least as far as USEPA Tier 2 if refitted to the ECO spec.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK1qI7dvs94

One thing to keep in mind those is that the 22s being new build had to meet higher emissions spec which is a good thing. Clearly like NIR IE wanted to go the DMU route, but it will be interesting to see what lifespan those trains have, being presumably heavier and having more vibrations due to the integral engines. The main difference between the UK and Ireland is that Ireland has essentially given up on major work having downsized Inchicore, whereas there are still a choice of places in the UK with the facility to overhaul, so when considering a refurb the first item is cost to ship to/from (such as when 22037's broken bits were sent to Scotland or the LHBs sent to Germany) plus with Ireland's odd gauge it's not like you can do test runs before sending them back unless you swap out the bogies etc.

Dublin Spotter

If the ecomney wasn't the way it is people wouldn't be complaining about IR buying the 22000 class trains. They were got so build a bridge and get over it as we can't go back in time.

Advantages:
1 - Fully accessable for disabled passengers.
2 - Capacity to match demand and can be spilt in minutes which Mark 3 could not.
3 - Very fuel efficent (best in Europe)
4 - Major imporvment in relaibleity (do not require all engines to operate) unlike the Mark3 which has only a loco. If a break down can be attached to another ICR to clear line (they all should be fitted with a system to stop faults being transferd by now) after IR learned when they tried it before
5 - Much less wear and tear to the tracks compared to the 201 class
6 - Fitted with latest technology - engine fire system, CCTV (in and out),
7 - Can break much faster than the Mark3+201 and guessing the same for the Mark 4.
8 - Fully air-conditioned
9 - Advantages to some routes mainly Waterford with time in Kilkenny halved with no loco changed required (I know some were operated by PP sets) and splitting for Westport/Galway services at Athlone.
10 - Engines can be powered off/on in seconds unlike 201 class. Engines set to go into standby mode after approx 25-30 mins if train is not moving, which saves fuel.
11. Have tanks for WC unlike the Mark3 which dumped it to the tracks.

I loved the Mark3's and would of liked to see them remain in service but the ICR are much more cost effective you can't say other wise.

Reading on wiki and can anybody confirm this.

There are 2 Mk 3 sets stored at Dundalk and it is reported that their bodies are in such a bad state that they can not be brought to Dublin to be scraped so it looks like they will be scrapped on the disused sidings beside the station.

All 5 of the Mark 3 control cars and some of the passenger coaches that are in good condition will be retained in the event that Entreprise introduce a more frequent service between Belfast and Dublin. The push pull dedicated Cafe/Bar which was interduced to one of the push pull sets on the Waterford line in 2004 is also planned to be kept

end of the road

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

If the ecomney wasn't the way it is people wouldn't be complaining about IR buying the 22000 class trains. They were got so build a bridge and get over it as we can't go back in time

or what? and i wouldn't be so sure that people wouldn't have complained, scrapping young rolling stock is frowned upon by some. i always thought you could hop into one of those machines and go back in time? <snip>

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

Capacity to match demand

accept on some services to rosslare.

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

I loved the Mark3's and would of liked to see them remain in service but the ICR are much more cost effective you can't say other wise

as may be but give it a few years and some of them will be stored as well.

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

Reading on wiki and can anybody confirm this.
i'd say all will go to the brakers.

Dublin Spotter

accept on some services to rosslare.

Because platforms are not long enought for 6 coaches and it would require money to extend platforms and IE don't have it but I understand that selective door opening can/will be interduced which would allow 6 coaches operate on Rossllare line but thats being talked about with months.

as may be but give it a few years and some of them will be stored as well.

You may be right but if all the Mark 3 were in service today the same could happen with them if there was service cuts.

end of the road

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

Because platforms are not long enought for 6 coaches and it would require money to extend platforms and IE don't have it but I understand that selective door opening can/will be interduced which would allow 6 coaches operate on Rossllare line but thats being talked about with months

could have all been done during the good times like a lot of things that needed to be done to the railway but never mind we got the WRC.
can't see selective door opening happening anytime soon either.
its not that long since anouncements to move toards the front of the train were common on rosslare services. how we managed is a mystery.
looking back it was aweful <snip>

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

You may be right but if all the Mark 3 were in service today the same could happen with them if there was service cuts.

possibly. i don't want to be right on such a thing happening to the 22 ks but i fear i could be right.

Losty Dublin

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

Because platforms are not long enought for 6 coaches and it would require money to extend platforms and IE don't have it but I understand that selective door opening can/will be interduced which would allow 6 coaches operate on Rossllare line but thats being talked about with months.

As I understand it, the main issue on the Rosslare line is that Rathdrum station is virtually impossible to extend the platforms and crossing loop due to the geography of the site. All other stations on the line are either suitably long or are capable of extension.

dowlingm

There's some pictures on Rathdrum at Eiretrains, main problems are adjacent overbridges plus gradients either side of the site. They could of course run some longer trains skipping Rathdrum but I think there are some other stations with similar (not QUITE as short) platforms.

Ste.phen

dowlingm wrote: »

There's some pictures on Rathdrum at Eiretrains, main problems are adjacent overbridges plus gradients either side of the site. They could of course run some longer trains skipping Rathdrum but I think there are some other stations with similar (not QUITE as short) platforms.

Why not just do the 'platform at the next station in short so only the first X cars' doors will open' thing i've seen done on US (NY subway, South Ferry i think) and UK (several stations on mainline) railways?

Judgement Day

Ste.phen wrote: »

Why not just do the 'platform at the next station in short so only the first X cars' doors will open' thing i've seen done on US (NY subway, South Ferry i think) and UK (several stations on mainline) railways?

That's why the specifications for the 22000s should have included SDO. Who ever drew up the plans for them was too busy trying to design them to exclude the carrying of parcels/bikes etc. :rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

There's some pictures on Rathdrum at Eiretrains, main problems are adjacent overbridges plus gradients either side of the site. They could of course run some longer trains skipping Rathdrum but I think there are some other stations with similar (not QUITE as short) platforms.

All the stations are otherwise fine, MD, bar possibly the new Rosslare Harbour station. I've a photo of a RPSI special at Rosslare village from March that was 7 carriages long and there was space for it and an engine; a 22000 will be fine with it.

Losty Dublin

Ste.phen wrote: »

Why not just do the 'platform at the next station in short so only the first X cars' doors will open' thing i've seen done on US (NY subway, South Ferry i think) and UK (several stations on mainline) railways?

If a train is made of 2 three car sets, that's not practical for obvious reasons. The done practice on older stock but they were manned with a guard who could supervise passengers getting on and off. At an usually unmanned station such as Rathdrum and with no guard , the H+S become an issue.

Judgement Day

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If a train is made of 2 three car sets, that's not practical for obvious reasons. The done practice on older stock but they were manned with a guard who could supervise passengers getting on and off. At an usually unmanned station such as Rathdrum and with no guard , the H+S become an issue.

How did Rathdrum come to be unmanned in the first place?

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Rosslare Harbour station

as in the locally famous moving station of rosslare? it should be a tourist attraction at this stage.

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

How did Rathdrum come to be unmanned in the first place?

It's peak hours only since the signal box closed down, so I'm told. I'd wager a guess that the tourism traffic is what's keeping it going.

end of the road

what about killcool, anything stop there now?

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

what about killcool, anything stop there now?

Two morning and three evening trains weekdays; no Sunday services. Most locals there use Greystones as it it has DART and a large car park adjacent; some find it's handier to get to.

dowlingm

IE's usual station lengths seem to be 176m for a "normal" station for 6 car 22 services and 90m for 3 car 22/4 car 26/27/28 going by the network statement. Wicklow line stations south of Greystone seem to fall in between, in the 130m-140m range with a few in the 120s (so a 6 car 2700 set would have worked if you could trust the couplers not to spontaneously part company)

Losty, I assumed that RPSI set fell under some form of grandfathering tbh.

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Two morning and three evening trains weekdays; no Sunday services. Most locals there use Greystones as it it has DART and a large car park adjacent; some find it's handier to get to.

why keep it open if thats the case?

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

IE's usual station lengths seem to be 176m for a "normal" station for 6 car 22 services and 90m for 3 car 22/4 car 26/27/28 going by the network statement. Wicklow line stations south of Greystone seem to fall in between, in the 130m-140m range with a few in the 120s (so a 6 car 2700 set would have worked if you could trust the couplers not to spontaneously part company)

Losty, I assumed that RPSI set fell under some form of grandfathering tbh.

A 6 car set is 139 metres long so a 130m platform is just enough, allowing for the nose and cab. Obviously, this depends on a careful stop by the driver but as a signal is usually at the platform end it's adhered to rigidly.

The RSPI trains are manned by a rostered steward on each door as per it's safety case.

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

why keep it open if thats the case?

Try and close it and see what happens

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Try and close it and see what happens

i'm not suggesting they do but asking why they don't if the locals prefer graystones? while graystones maybe handier its a waste to go all the way there when they have a station themselves, obviously those who live nearer to graystones will go there. obviously those living in killcool are happy with the service level they get, but if not maybe they should look for more services to stop there on a trial basis, should usership go up then look at all trains to stop there eventually?

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

well then maybe the locals should use it more and all trains stop there? a waste to go all the way to graystones when you have a station on your doorstep if all services stopped?

All services beyond Greystones is 5 Rosslare-Connolly trains 6 days a week. Greystones has about 1 Dart every hour as well. I know what I'd do if I lived down there.

Run_to_da_hills

Judgement Day wrote: »

That's why the specifications for the 22000s should have included SDO. Who ever drew up the plans for them was too busy trying to design them to exclude the carrying of parcels/bikes etc. :rolleyes:

Not too late, they could still remove a few rows of seats from premier and partition it off