Continuing Hodgson/Ferdinand/Terry Controversy

Beefy78

monkey9 wrote: »

Of course he does!! He's the England manager!! He is on record as saying he left Rio Ferdinand out of the England squad for purely footballing reasons!!!! Nothing to do with John Terry shouting black c*nt at Ferdinand''s brother!!

Yet here he is, selecting other players, above Ferdinand!!! We all know what's going on here and Hodgson is being found already after his ridiculous first press conference!!

For ****s sake, he's trying to be tactful. Everyone knows the real story. What good will Hodgson spelling it out actually do?

wonderfullife

Mr Alan wrote: »

The more I think about the comments from Ferdinand's camp this evening the more I think he has some ****ing nerve. He talks about a lack of respect & then throws a whopper spanner in the works for all his team mates who are over there preparing for this tournament & are now gonna be engulfed in a media circus over this. And that's without even mentioning how disrespectful it is to a young player in Martin Kelly who was likely over the moon at his call up but now must be dreading the circus he'll be involved in. Well played Rio.

absolute drivel.

81 caps, in fine form most of the season, a few injury problems overcome and he has the likes of Phil Jones, Martin Kelly and Phil Jagielka ahead of him based on "footballing reasons" so yeah i think after the service he's given England, "what reasons????!!!!" is fair.

The only people creating a media circus are the FA and Roy. I place 90% of the blame at the FA's doorstep. They could have come out and said "right listen it's rio or terry, full stop" publically. Or they could have sorted out an england manager 6 weeks ago so this circus would be well and truly over and forgotten by now.

Been very unlucky with injuries it has to be said. Walker, Lamps, Cahill - swap those 3 for Kelly, Henderson and Jags and the squad has a different look to it. An illusion of depth.

But to blame Rio for any of this is pure garbage. Remember he isn't even involved in the bloody case!!!! it'd be like your brother getting thrown out of a nightclub and the bouncers barring you by association!! or worse, your brothers mate causes the **** and everyone but him gets barred!

wonderfullife

You know it's a piss poor decision/handling when Gary Lineker starts getting sarcastic:

Lineker Twitter:

""Yet another injury blow. Gary Cahill out. Time for Rio Ferdinand? No. Micah Richards then? No. How remiss of me, has to be Martin Kelly."

recylingbin

wonderfullife wrote: »

The only people creating a media circus are the FA and Roy. I place 90% of the blame at the FA's doorstep.

Thankfully Rio has remained dignified and given short shrift to anyone whose tried to stir this up.

monkey9

Beefy78 wrote: »

For ****s sake, he's trying to be tactful. Everyone knows the real story. What good will Hodgson spelling it out actually do?

He could start by saying to John Terry "you know the way you're on trial next month for racially abusing a follow footballer, a footballer who's brother i would have probably started alongside you in the centre of our defense? Well, instead of dropping the brother of the victim, i'm just gonna drop you instead!!"

wonderfullife

Mr Alan wrote: »

I despise Hodgson. But **** that **** mate. He's the manager, he doesn't need to explain every decision he makes or wants to make.

Rio may want to direct some of his animosity toward his own manager at Utd who told the England manager that Rio is unable to play consecutive games in quick succession. Somehow I doubt Rio will go down that route though.....

He stressed he had no doubts over Ferdinand's ability to get through a tournament on a physical basis.

"I had a private conversation with Sir Alex (Ferguson) 10 days ago," Hodgson said.

"I think Rio has done exceptionally well this year. He's played a lot of matches through injury.

"He's got himself on the field of play when many a player wouldn't have done so.

"I'm also wary of that because I know there have been times in the season where Rio has played three matches in a week.

"I would be lying if that [the ability to play matches close together] was the major reason for not selecting him.

"It was purely on other footballing reasons.

LuckyLloyd

Ultimately, John Terry is one of life's winners. Yet again he has won something he possibly shouldn't have. He just achieves year in, year out.

eagle eye

CSF wrote: »

Political correctness? Are you having a laugh? Well you may not take racism very seriously, but the majority of people do.

Its you that doesn't have a clue.

Do we have to educate you in the difference between racism and a racial slur? There is a hell of a difference.

Optimalprimerib

There is no doubt terry should be sent packing as far away from the squad as possible. In 2010 he lost his captaincy over an issue involving a team-mate. In 2012, he lost the regained captaincy over an issue involving a team-mate ( a little indirectly but if someone called my brother a b@&€k **** i would be involved in it).

He is clearly a negative influence in the team, he should have not be let near the plane. Even his celebrations in the CL final showed what the players he plays with day in day out think of him. They would not let him lift the trophy on his own as he almost ruined it for them all. Thats my opinion on the situation anyway.

The funny thing is, if the fa dealt with the situation the same way they did the suarez situation, instead of effectively brushing it under the carpet, this would all be forgotten and things would have moved on.

Giggsy11

I dont think England will make it to Euro or World cup without media circus.

For the first time I was thinking England team is organized and playing with a tactic that suits them and no negative talk from the media and all of a sudden this happened.

I dont blame Rio for "What reason" tweet as Roy said it was for footballing reason but media should give it a rest rather than just making unlimited stories which may unrest the camp.

This is not the first time FA has done something like this to Rio though, he should have retired from Internationals long back.

ebbsy

Ferdinand did'nt have a very good season, when he was'nt injured Utd were busy shipping goals, his time as an England player is over.

Giggsy11

ebbsy wrote: »

Ferdinand did'nt have a very good season, when he was'nt injured Utd were busy shipping goals, his time as an England player is over.

His time as an England player is over, but he didn't have a good season? I must be watching someother player playing with Evans as CB then.

wonderfullife

wonderfullife wrote: »

You know it's a piss poor decision/handling when Gary Lineker starts getting sarcastic:

Lineker Twitter:

""Yet another injury blow. Gary Cahill out. Time for Rio Ferdinand? No. Micah Richards then? No. How remiss of me, has to be Martin Kelly."

Real account? :eek:

It's bad enough having to explain things to people on here that haven't a clue, but when a fellow pro can't see the wood from the trees it's make you wonder.

Richards I'd imagine won't ever play under Hodgson after refusing to go on standby list, his bridges are burned and rightly so.

Do people really need explaining why Ferdinand isn't there? Really?

The funny thing is Kelly isn't even a CB :pac:

England are an injury or two away from a serious disaster imo.

And btw, Ferdinand should really stfu. He's disrespecting his team-mates tbh.

Beefy78

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

The funny thing is, if the fa dealt with the situation the same way they did the suarez situation, instead of effectively brushing it under the carpet, this would all be forgotten and things would have moved on.

They couldn't treat it the same because the Police and then the Crown Prosecution Service didn't treat them the same. Once the Court case has taken place then the FA will take a decision on charges. They aren't allowed to do it the other way around.

But yes, it should all have been done and dusted by now. That the trial was set for after the Euros hasn't done anyone any good (other than John Terry).

podge018

rarnes1 wrote: »

The funny thing is Kelly isn't even a CB :pac:

shows what you know, and how seriously the rest of your post should be taken.

doc_17

How many times has Martin Kelly played centre back for Liverpool? Surely there isn't a sinificant number of games played by him in that position to assertain that he is a viable option there?

_blank_

Kelly is not in the squad as CH cover.

podge018

podge018 wrote: »

shows what you know, and how seriously the rest of your post should be taken.

??

So how many games has he played for Liverpool at CB ?

This should be good...

Des

Des wrote: »

Kelly is not in the squad as CH cover.

It's sad when this has to be spelled out to people tbh.

podge018

for the first team, 0 probably. Doesn't matter. He's a natural centre-half and played there all the way up and only came into the first team as right back emergency cover and proved himself very comfortable there. It's always been asssumed he'll make the progression into the centre at some point.

But as Des points out, it wont be at the Euros, Jones is Cahill's centre back replacement.

jaykay74

podge018 wrote: »

for the first team, 0 probably. Doesn't matter. He's a natural centre-half and played there all the way up and only came into the first team as right back emergency cover and proved himself very comfortable there. It's always been asssumed he'll make the progression into the centre at some point.

But as Des points out, it wont be at the Euros, Jones is Cahill's centre back replacement.

As a Utd fan have to say Jones is a walking disaster at CB at the current time. He may develop in the future but for now I hate to see him at CB for Utd. Jones over Rio for CB would be an odd pick if you were given the choice.

podge018

podge018 wrote: »

for the first team, 0 probably. Doesn't matter. He's a natural centre-half and played there all the way up and only came into the first team as right back emergency cover and proved himself very comfortable there. It's always been asssumed he'll make the progression into the centre at some point.

Jones is Cahill's centre back replacement.
.

I think it does matter, it's the Euro's not FM.

Jones wouldn't exactly be water tight cover either, quite dodgy at times.

wonderfullife

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ultimately, John Terry is one of life's winners. Yet again he has won something he possibly shouldn't have. He just achieves year in, year out.

I hear ya. Thoroughly distasteful character. Still one of the best defenders England ever produced.

Giggsy11 wrote: »

I dont think England will make it to Euro or World cup without media circus.

For the first time I was thinking England team is organized and playing with a tactic that suits them and no negative talk from the media and all of a sudden this happened.

I dont blame Rio for "What reason" tweet as Roy said it was for footballing reason but media should give it a rest rather than just making unlimited stories which may unrest the camp.

This is not the first time FA has done something like this to Rio though, he should have retired from Internationals long back.

To be fair, the FA could have given him the boot from the set-up entirely after his drugs ban in 2003. They did, in effect, stand by him for most of the last 8 years.

That being said they have well and truly bungled almost every decision in 2012.

ebbsy wrote: »

Ferdinand did'nt have a very good season, when he was'nt injured Utd were busy shipping goals, his time as an England player is over.

Giggsy11 wrote: »

His time as an England player is over, but he didn't have a good season? I must be watching someother player playing with Evans as CB then.

rio was excellent all year and a 1st choice starter. Kelly was not 1st choice, Jags wasn't even 1st choice, Lescott flitted in and out at City. To be honest, i don't think Cahill pulled up too many trees overall in his debut chelsea season.

Politics aside, Englands best back four minus injuries, probably remained:

Cole-Rio-Terry-Johnson.

It's arguable on many levels. All about opinions. But in the system Roy is employing - tight, compact, men behind the ball , it places less emphasis on pace and more on positioning, focus and ability to pass long from defence.

rarnes1 wrote: »

Real account? :eek:

It's bad enough having to explain things to people on here that haven't a clue, but when a fellow pro can't see the wood from the trees it's make you wonder.

Richards I'd imagine won't ever play under Hodgson after refusing to go on standby list, his bridges are burned and rightly so.

Do people really need explaining why Ferdinand isn't there? Really?

The funny thing is Kelly isn't even a CB :pac:

England are an injury or two away from a serious disaster imo.

And btw, Ferdinand should really stfu. He's disrespecting his team-mates tbh.

81 caps and a snub based on footballing reasons. I think the main point to gather is Roy obviously did not share the footballing reasons with Rio on the phone. If he had said "look i am building towards the future here with younger lads", Rio would have thought "hmmmm Cashley and Terry are similar age/profile". If he had said "your fitness is in question", Rio can point to playing 3 games in 8 days this season.

Bottom line, no manager is going to say "look son i think you're cack and im going with someone else!!!!". But if that's truly what Roy thinks, then he knows a lot less about football than even his worst critics thought.

I just get the vibe with Hodgson that he is very similar to Trap - in that, the players themselves are secondary to the system. I.e. doesn't matter what 11 or 23 he sends out, drill them like robots into compact defending and hope to sneak goals on counter. For those purposes i guess the current squad is good enough. It's just very poor by English standards.

podge018 wrote: »

shows what you know, and how seriously the rest of your post should be taken.

Beefy78 wrote: »

They couldn't treat it the same because the Police and then the Crown Prosecution Service didn't treat them the same. Once the Court case has taken place then the FA will take a decision on charges. They aren't allowed to do it the other way around.

But yes, it should all have been done and dusted by now. That the trial was set for after the Euros hasn't done anyone any good (other than John Terry).

I think the FA made one MASSIVE mistake and fudge when stripping Terry of the captaincy. If he is not eligible to lead his country, he should not be eligible to play for them. Clearly at the time Capello said to the FA "i need Terry for the euros" and the brains in the FA came back and said "we need to make some sort of show of control here, so the captaincy goes, sweep it under the rug, bring him for the Euros."

Innocent or guilty (in a court of law, not a court of opinion) won't matter, i feel his retirement from international football will be imminent post-euros.

podge018

Hang on, you said "The funny thing is Kelly isn't even a CB" , when he is.

wonderfullife

podge018 wrote: »

shows what you know, and how seriously the rest of your post should be taken.

Kelly is not even 1st choice CB (or RB) at liverpool.

Hands up how many LFC fans have Kelly ahead of Skrtel/Agger at CB?

Hands up how many LFC fans have him ahead of Johnson at RB?


Bottom line he is hugely promising and in time may be 1st choice for club/country but he isn't even 1st choice at his club in his favoured positions. That would be ok if his club were champions or champions of europe, i.e. top top class ahead of him in pecking order, but that's not the case.

podge018

not my point at all.

podge018

podge018 wrote: »

Hang on, you said "The funny thing is Kelly isn't even a CB" , when he is.

He played CB in the youths for Liverpool, I think we all know that ffs. Was touted as a future CB for Liverpool, but has established himself as a solid RB for the club when called upon.

He one cap for England came as RB.

So, at the minute he's not a CB, and hasn't been for Liverpool for the past 3 years or so. What's the problem?

wonderfullife

podge018 wrote: »

not my point at all.

no, your point is that he can and has played CB.

Fair enough....but everyone can easily point to 2 things here - 1. he is being drafted in as cover for Johnson at RB and 2. he has been used more often than not this season at RB for LFC.

G.K.

wonderfullife wrote: »

Kelly is not even 1st choice CB (or RB) at liverpool.

Hands up how many LFC fans have Kelly ahead of Skrtel/Agger at CB?

Hands up how many LFC fans have him ahead of Johnson at RB?


Bottom line he is hugely promising and in time may be 1st choice for club/country but he isn't even 1st choice at his club in his favoured positions. That would be ok if his club were champions or champions of europe, i.e. top top class ahead of him in pecking order, but that's not the case.

Actually there's quite a lot of them who'd do that.

And if he's the best man for the job, which given Hodgson's going for a RB, he is, it doesn't matter who is in front of him.

Beefy78

wonderfullife wrote: »

rio was excellent all year and a 1st choice starter. Kelly was not 1st choice, Jags wasn't even 1st choice, Lescott flitted in and out at City. To be honest, i don't think Cahill pulled up too many trees overall in his debut chelsea season.

Politics aside, Englands best back four minus injuries, probably remained:

Cole-Rio-Terry-Johnson.

Lescott played 31 out of 38 league games for City. The ones he missed were mainly down to injury.

City's win percentage without Lescott in the side was notably lower than their win percentage without Kompany. Lescott is a major player now and should have been the second defender on the team sheet behind Ashley Cole regardless of the Terry/Ferdinand debacle.

wonderfullife wrote: »

I think the FA made one MASSIVE mistake and fudge when stripping Terry of the captaincy. If he is not eligible to lead his country, he should not be eligible to play for them. Clearly at the time Capello said to the FA "i need Terry for the euros" and the brains in the FA came back and said "we need to make some sort of show of control here, so the captaincy goes, sweep it under the rug, bring him for the Euros."

Absolutely, and that was clear at the time. But once the FA took the decision to stand off then it left Hodgson to make the call over which of the two of them to take to the Euros. He's a football manager, not a Judge and not the moral compass for the whole of England.

podge018

wonderfullife wrote: »

no, your point is that he can and has played CB.

Fair enough....but everyone can easily point to 2 things here - 1. he is being drafted in as cover for Johnson at RB and 2. he has been used more often than not this season at RB for LFC.

no my point was he IS a centre back, I wouldn't have him near an England squad as waterboy.

monkey9

podge018 wrote: »

Hang on, you said "The funny thing is Kelly isn't even a CB" , when he is.

Going by your logic, Jamie Carragher isn't even a centre back, he's a midfielder!!

monkey9

monkey9 wrote: »

Going by your logic, Jamie Carragher isn't even a centre back, he's a midfielder!!

Henry is a winger

doc_17

Martin Kelly - Right Back.

monkey9

podge018 wrote: »

no my point was he IS a centre back, I wouldn't have him near an England squad as waterboy.

So who would you have brought in as a right back instead of Kelly then?? The bloke is a very good player, by the way!

PHB

John Terry isn't innocent, it's just we don't know. I think lots of us saw the video and have a pretty good idea. But the case has been postponed due to legal proceddings.

Terry has ultimately ****ed up the English campaign for the Euros. The last manager, one of the best of his generation, got fired because of it. The current manager is now still having to deal with it.

Frankly, I think Roy is right in his approach overall, pick one, and ignore the other, no matter what.

For me, I've no idea why you'd pick Terry. I've never thought he was a great defender, and I think his best performances at Chelsea have either been with Makelele in front of him or Carvalho beside him, both far superior players. I think he reguarly gets caught out at the highest level, especially international football, where he can't deal with teh pace of the game. Also, he's prone to getting sent off.

I genuinely don't understand why you'd want Terry ahead of Ferdinand as a footballer. However, I'm happy, since I want Ferdinand to get the rest for the summer for United's campaign.

England with Lescott and Terry in the middle haven't a ****ing hope.

theoneeyedman

TBF to Roy, he hasn't allowed players to dictate to him who plays and who doesn't. Carrick apparently wanted assurances that he was going to be first choice, Rio wasn't happy playing with JT, and Richards (who probably should have been picked in the origional squad) refused to go on the stand-by list. Personally in the circumstances i would have left JT and rio at home but once roy made the origional decision there is really no going back and Rio is only stirring the sh1t and looking for attention IMO-more worried about his own ego and image than standing up for any greater cause i.e. stamoing out racism.

as always engerland a lot more entertaining off the field than on it

PHB

PHB wrote: »

John Terry isn't innocent, it's just we don't know.

He is until proved guilty.

It wouldn't shock me in the slightest if he was found not-guilty btw.

monkey9

theoneeyedman wrote: »

TBF to Roy, he hasn't allowed players to dictate to him who plays and who doesn't. Carrick apparently wanted assurances that he was going to be first choice, Rio wasn't happy playing with JT, and Richards (who probably should have been picked in the origional squad) refused to go on the stand-by list. Personally in the circumstances i would have left JT and rio at home but once roy made the origional decision there is really no going back and Rio is only stirring the sh1t and looking for attention IMO-more worried about his own ego and image than standing up for any greater cause i.e. stamoing out racism.

as always engerland a lot more entertaining off the field than on it

No, i think he's p!ssed off that the only reason he's been left out of the squad is because his brother was allegedly racially abused by John Terry who stands trial for it next month. That's what's he getting at. I agree with him and i'd be p!ssed off too because he'd be in the squad now if what happened at Loftus Road didn't happen.

jaykay74

theoneeyedman wrote: »

TBF to Roy, he hasn't allowed players to dictate to him who plays and who doesn't. Carrick apparently wanted assurances that he was going to be first choice, Rio wasn't happy playing with JT

Anything to back these claims up

monkey9

rarnes1 wrote: »

He is until proved guilty.

It wouldn't shock me in the slightest if he was found not-guilty btw.

Even if he is found guilty, the worst that will happen to him is he'll be fined. It'll just be interesting to see if the FA ban him for a minimum of eight matches.

Beefy78

jaykay74 wrote: »

Anything to back these claims up

Hodgson said the Carrick thing in one of the press conferences. He told the FA a year ago he wasn't interested in playing for England as a fringe player.

I am pie

PHB wrote: »

John Terry isn't innocent, it's just we don't know. I think lots of us saw the video and have a pretty good idea. But the case has been postponed due to legal proceddings.

Terry has ultimately ****ed up the English campaign for the Euros. The last manager, one of the best of his generation, got fired because of it. The current manager is now still having to deal with it.

Frankly, I think Roy is right in his approach overall, pick one, and ignore the other, no matter what.

For me, I've no idea why you'd pick Terry. I've never thought he was a great defender, and I think his best performances at Chelsea have either been with Makelele in front of him or Carvalho beside him, both far superior players. I think he reguarly gets caught out at the highest level, especially international football, where he can't deal with teh pace of the game. Also, he's prone to getting sent off.

I genuinely don't understand why you'd want Terry ahead of Ferdinand as a footballer. However, I'm happy, since I want Ferdinand to get the rest for the summer for United's campaign.

England with Lescott and Terry in the middle haven't a ****ing hope.

Terry struggled playing AVB's high defensive line, that is not his natural game and more importantly for England that won't be the role he is asked to play.

In the role that England/Hodgson will ask him to play...marshalling a flat back four who stay compact and in touch with the midfield protection and lie deep, he is simply light years ahead of ferdinand. Clearly Ferdinand is a better ball player, but in terms of aerial ability, blocking shots on target and making tackles in and around the box Terry is yer man every day of the week. Terry won't be doing much in the way of carrying the ball out of defence or playing a high line. Hodgson fell out with Agger because of his fancy notions of defenders daring to carry the ball and pass short.

Richards should have been in, Kelly hasn't looked great at CB for Liverpool but they probably feel with jagielka there he has cover already. Richards is a straight RB, not convinced at all about his CB cover, he's too attacking minded and certainly not the inaminate lump that Hodgson likes to see in the centre of defense.

monkey9

I am pie wrote: »

Terry struggled playing AVB's high defensive line, that is not his natural game and more importantly for England that won't be the role he is asked to play.

In the role that England/Hodgson will ask him to play...marshalling a flat back four who stay compact and in touch with the midfield protection and lie deep, he is simply light years ahead of ferdinand. Clearly Ferdinand is a better ball player, but in terms of aerial ability, blocking shots on target and making tackles in and around the box Terry is yer man every day of the week. Terry won't be doing much in the way of carrying the ball out of defence or playing a high line. Hodgson fell out with Agger because of his fancy notions of defenders daring to carry the ball and pass short.

Richards should have been in, Kelly hasn't looked great at CB for Liverpool but they probably feel with jagielka there he has cover already. Richards is a straight RB, not convinced at all about his CB cover, he's too attacking minded and certainly not the inaminate lump that Hodgson likes to see in the centre of defense.

Kelly has never played centre back for Liverpool.

jaykay74

Beefy78 wrote: »

Hodgson said the Carrick thing in one of the press conferences. He told the FA a year ago he wasn't interested in playing for England as a fringe player.

Thanks. Anything on Rio saying he wouldn't play with terry. Would be surprised if there was any truth to that.

I am pie

monkey9 wrote: »

Kelly has never played centre back for Liverpool.

He has for reserves....

monkey9

jaykay74 wrote: »

Thanks. Anything on Rio saying he wouldn't play with terry. Would be surprised if there was any truth to that.

I think it's the opposite, both of them told Hodgson they would play alongside each other!

monkey9

I am pie wrote: »

He has for reserves....

Not for the first team, though! He's been the right back.

Chucky the tree

double GG wrote: »

Bar Rooney and Evra, Rio played the most minutes of any United player this season. The lack of fitness things.... ya de yaaaaaaaa

Why did his own manager say this then?

You play something like a game every four days. Rio Ferdinand couldn't do that.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/alex-ferguson-rio-ferdinand-wont-last-euro-2012-pace-7742406.html

Beefy78

jaykay74 wrote: »

Thanks. Anything on Rio saying he wouldn't play with terry. Would be surprised if there was any truth to that.

As monkey9 said, they both claim that they're ok with playing with the other.