Continuing Hodgson/Ferdinand/Terry Controversy

ctrl-alt-delete

Hodgson seems to think he will be there for the World Cup, which in my opinion he should be, the preparation for this tournament was thrown into chaos by the FA themselves. How fitting is it that Terry was the main reason if I remember correctly that Capello walked on.

It was always going to be a choice between Terry and Ferdinand once Terry was available for selection.

Anyways, I don't see too much of a problem with Kelly being included, seems as though it should be Terry's and would have been Ferdinand's last championships. Kelly has been promising from what I have seen of him and it will be good experience for a player who has the potential to be a key player in the future.

I would have Richards ahead of him no doubt there, but if the situation around him is to be believed well then it is another correct decision by Hodgson in my view.

cournioni

gnfnrhead wrote: »

I hate John Terry, but given a choice between him and Ferdinand, Terry wins each and every time.

Really? Who was part of the better defence this year? Terry or Ferdinand?

willowthewisp

Don't like him, but in fairness rio should have gone in the first place.
I would rather face terry in current form than Ferdinand , rio can feel hard done by.

Chucky the tree

cournioni wrote: »

Really? Who was part of the better defence this year? Terry or Ferdinand?

So Evra is a better left back than Ashley Cole? :pac:

Drumpot

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So Evra is a better left back than Ashley Cole? :pac:

Youve actually done a disservice to your point. Rio played alongside evra, Evans , a differant right back most weeks and a goalkeeper trying to find his teeth At the club. Thats not to mention the criPpling injuries to the squad that meant united seldom had the same midfield each game either! Yet united still had a superior defence. Who did terry play alongside? Oh he actually played in a very settled team all season! It's hilarious the amount of people speaking matter of factly on how terry is obviously (which he's not) so much better then rio.

Terry is slow and a decent defender, nothing more. Granted he will put his Head (and knee!) on front of anything but this doesn't make up for his serious lack of pace. Even In his 30s rio reads the game better, has superior pace and is a better all round defender who Showed this season that he can play with anybody beside him. I'm certainy not devestated that england have made a cock up of their squad selection.

Chucky the tree

Drumpot wrote: »

Youve actually done a disservice to your point. Rio played alongside evra, Evans , a differant right back most weeks and a goalkeeper trying to find his teeth At the club. Thats not to mention the criPpling injuries to the squad that meant united seldom had the same midfield each game either! Yet united still had a superior defence. Who did terry play alongside? Oh he actually played in a very settled team all season! It's hilarious the amount of people speaking matter of factly on how terry is obviously (which he's not) so much better then rio.

Terry is slow and a decent defender, nothing more. Granted he will put his Head (and knee!) on front of anything but this doesn't make up for his serious lack of pace. Even In his 30s rio reads the game better, has superior pace and is a better all round defender who Showed this season that he can play with anybody beside him. I'm certainy not devestated that england have made a cock up of their squad selection.

I've haven't done my point a disservice. His point was because Rio played in a better defence he must be better. Ridiculous.

Sanity_Saviour

cournioni wrote: »

gnfnrhead wrote: »

I hate John Terry, but given a choice between him and Ferdinand, Terry wins each and every time.

Really? Who was part of the better defence this year? Terry or Ferdinand?

This makes no sense. Skrtel is a superb defender in a poor defence, Terry was fantastic in parts while beside the likes of Bosingwa and Ferreira. Ferdinand can easily be made look good beside one of the best defenders in the world and an on-form jonny evans.

Drumpot

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I've haven't done my point a disservice. His point was because Rio played in a better defence he must be better. Ridiculous.

If you think terry is a better defender you certainly have put your foot in it. If you don't, fair enough.

Giggsy11

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

This makes no sense. Skrtel is a superb defender in a poor defence, Terry was fantastic in parts while beside the likes of Bosingwa and Ferreira. Ferdinand can easily be made look good beside one of the best defenders in the world and an on-form jonny evans.

How the words can be twisted and played with.

When the discussion was about Evans, Rio made him to look good, when it about Rio, It was all Evans.

No it was not Evans who made the defense stronger, it was Rio who also helped Evans to perform better. (As we are taking SAF words for granted, he did say this).

Drumpot

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

This makes no sense. Skrtel is a superb defender in a poor defence, Terry was fantastic in parts while beside the likes of Bosingwa and Ferreira. Ferdinand can easily be made look good beside one of the best defenders in the world and an on-form jonny evans.

Ivanovic, who had a superb season, made terry look good this season.

Bigging up Johnny Evans to Try to add weight to your point is desperation stuff! Evans was definitely better this season, but I wouldn't use him in an Argument about who played alongside better players this season.

Hulk Hands

monkey9 wrote: »

So who would you have brought in as a right back instead of Kelly then?? The bloke is a very good player, by the way!

He's not a very good player. He's an average player who may improve in time. If he was very good he would've beaten out Johnson or Skretel to the starting jobs at Liverpool.

Another cock-up by Hodgson is having a defensive liability in Johnson at RB. Richards should be starting there, never mind be in the squad. With that being fecked up, Jones is a better option at RB, especially against France, however unpolished and Raw he is.

Actually the best option would be to move Ashley Cole to RB and play Leighton Baines on the left, as they are 2 of England's best players. Would never happen though

Chucky the tree

Drumpot wrote: »

If you think terry is a better defender you certainly have put your foot in it. If you don't, fair enough.

I never said Terry was a better defender. However if rio can't play 4 days after a game then Terry is a better selection.

Hulk Hands

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Actually the best option would be to move Ashley Cole to RB and play Leighton Baines on the left, as they are 2 of England's best players. Would never happen though

Huh?

I've heard it all now.

cournioni

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I've haven't done my point a disservice. His point was because Rio played in a better defence he must be better. Ridiculous.

Nothing ridiculous about it. He was an ever present in the United team that finished level on points with the eventual champions.

What do you have to back up John Terry other than a personal opinion?! The fact that he gets sent off in crucial games?

Your point on Evra is daft also, Evra didn't have one of his better seasons, but he was also an ever present in a consistently good defence over the year.

Drumpot

Hulk Hands wrote: »

He's not a very good player. He's an average player who may improve in time. If he was very good he would've beaten out Johnson or Skretel to the starting jobs at Liverpool.

Another cock-up by Hodgson is having a defensive liability in Johnson at RB. Richards should be starting there, never mind be in the squad. With that being fecked up, Jones is a better option at RB, especially against France, however unpolished and Raw he is.

Actually the best option would be to move Ashley Cole to RB and play Leighton Baines on the left, as they are 2 of England's best players. Would never happen though

6 Liverpool players in their squad says it all really. It's pathetic and inexcusable, there are plenty of unproven, short of form players in teams far better then Liverpool who could of been chosen. Gerrard is the only choice thats understandable. The rest are a bunch of nothing Players that did absolutely nothing to deserve being called up. They would struggle to get on the pool team only the club wasted so much money on them! (although Kelly didnt cost much he does struggle to get a game!).

Drumpot

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I never said Terry was a better defender. However if rio can't play 4 days after a game then Terry is a better selection.

Rooney can't play for at least a third of the Potential games and he was brought. Same thing really. That aside , rio is a top defender, why not bring him and play him every second game? Would he play any less then kelly? He could be a fantastic sub! Another lame excuse from hodgson!

Sanity_Saviour

Drumpot wrote: »

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

This makes no sense. Skrtel is a superb defender in a poor defence, Terry was fantastic in parts while beside the likes of Bosingwa and Ferreira. Ferdinand can easily be made look good beside one of the best defenders in the world and an on-form jonny evans.

Ivanovic, who had a superb season, made terry look good this season.

Bigging up Johnny Evans to Try to add weight to your point is desperation stuff! Evans was definitely better this season, but I wouldn't use him in an Argument about who played alongside better players this season.

Can you not say the same about Terry and Ivanovic? Aside from his howlers he's consistently good, i.e Barcelona at Stamford.

I wasn't 'bigging up' Evans, merely stating they were more influential. United's defence was amongst the best in the league but this was not due to Ferdinand, likewise Chelsea had an atrocious defense but this was not down to Terry.

Hulk Hands

rarnes1 wrote: »

Huh?

I've heard it all now.

I knew someone would react like that. When Leighton Baines came into form, and it was clear England didn't have a first choice right back, playing Ashley out there should have been tried out in friendlies. I'm sure Ashley would be adaptable enough to be very good on that side also.

Obviously as it hasn't been tried it would be crazy to try it now, in the euros. The next manager should give it some thought when preparing for the WC campaign however, as England don't have a RB. Richards looks to be frozen out and may never come back, Smalling & Jones are CB's who aren't going to be naturals out there, and Johnson's a liability. Yet they have 2 excellent LB's

Chucky the tree

cournioni wrote: »

Nothing ridiculous about it. He was an ever present in the United team that finished level on points with the eventual champions.

What do you have to back up John Terry other than a personal opinion?! The fact that he gets sent off in crucial games?

Your point on Evra is daft also, Evra didn't have one of his better seasons, but he was also an ever present in a consistently good defence over the year.

If you judge defenders based purely on the goals their team concedes then that is ridiculous.

Drumpot wrote: »

Rooney can't play for at least a third of the Potential games and he was brought. Same thing really. That aside , rio is a top defender, why not bring him and play him every second game? Would he play any less then kelly? He could be a fantastic sub! Another lame excuse from hodgson!

Playing him every second game won't bring much continuity really. You want your central defenders to form a partnership, not be chopped and changed every second game.

theoneeyedman

jaykay74 wrote: »

Anything to back these claims up

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/9271052/Manchester-Uniteds-Michael-Carrick-told-FA-he-did-not-want-to-be-bit-part-player-at-Euro-2012.html

widely reported at the time......

jaykay74

theoneeyedman wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/9271052/Manchester-Uniteds-Michael-Carrick-told-FA-he-did-not-want-to-be-bit-part-player-at-Euro-2012.html

widely reported at the time......

if you read the thread you'll see that was answered already. thanks.

Nothing on Rio refusing to play with terry though....

djfitzerjnr

Drumpot wrote: »

6 Liverpool players in their squad says it all really. It's pathetic and inexcusable, there are plenty of unproven, short of form players in teams far better then Liverpool who could of been chosen. Gerrard is the only choice thats understandable. The rest are a bunch of nothing Players that did absolutely nothing to deserve being called up. They would struggle to get on the pool team only the club wasted so much money on them! (although Kelly didnt cost much he does struggle to get a game!).

shut up. You're only saying that because of the club he plays for, obvious bias. How many times have you watched Martin Kelly and said that he is a terrible player, over-hyped and not full of potential, honestly?And Kelly cost zero, as he is a product of the academy, and does not 'struggle for a game', he is behind the number 1 England RB in the pecking order at Liverpool, and was injured for a good bit this season too.

G.K.

Henderson and Downing should not be at the Euros. While I'd have not taken them I can understand why Gerrard and Carroll are there. The right backs should be in the squad.

LuckyLloyd

Hulk Hands wrote: »

He's not a very good player. He's an average player who may improve in time. If he was very good he would've beaten out Johnson or Skretel to the starting jobs at Liverpool.

Another cock-up by Hodgson is having a defensive liability in Johnson at RB. Richards should be starting there, never mind be in the squad. With that being fecked up, Jones is a better option at RB, especially against France, however unpolished and Raw he is.

Actually the best option would be to move Ashley Cole to RB and play Leighton Baines on the left, as they are 2 of England's best players. Would never happen though

Where do people get this stuff from? It clearly isn't from watching the last season of football that's for sure.

Drumpot

djfitzerjnr wrote: »

shut up. You're only saying that because of the club he plays for, obvious bias. How many times have you watched Martin Kelly and said that he is a terrible player, over-hyped and not full of potential, honestly?And Kelly cost zero, as he is a product of the academy, and does not 'struggle for a game', he is behind the number 1 England RB in the pecking order at Liverpool, and was injured for a good bit this season too.

Kelly played 12 games last season. England have already lost bucketfulls of experienced players. Bringing Kelly was an idiotic strategy as there are already enough unproven talent in the squad. That includes downing,Henderson and Carroll who did nothing this season to deserve a spot.

As an Irish fan I don't really care. As a united fan I prefer united players resting at home for the summer. If I was an England football fan I would just find it tragic.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Where do people get this stuff from? It clearly isn't from watching the last season of football that's for sure.

Yeah very true, Johnson had his best season yet for LFC.

I think people just make up their own opinions without any facts to back it up. Similar to the tabloids actually !

monkey9

Drumpot wrote: »

Kelly played 12 games last season. England have already lost bucketfulls of experienced players. Bringing Kelly was an idiotic strategy as there are already enough unproven talent in the squad. That includes downing,
Henderson and Carroll who did nothing this season to deserve a spot.

As an Irish fan I don't really care. As a united fan I prefer united players resting at home for the summer. If I was an England foot fan I would just find it tragic.

So who would you brought in as right back instead of Kelly?

LuckyLloyd

monkey9 wrote: »

So who would you brought in as right back instead of Kelly?

What's Kyle Walker up to?

monkey9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What's Kyle Walker up to?

Pulled out through injury!

djfitzerjnr

Drumpot wrote: »

Kelly played 12 games last season. England have already lost bucketfulls of experienced players. Bringing Kelly was an idiotic strategy as there are already enough unproven talent in the squad. That includes downing,Henderson and Carroll who did nothing this season to deserve a spot.

As an Irish fan I don't really care. As a united fan I prefer united players resting at home for the summer. If I was an England football fan I would just find it tragic.

So who would be the back up RB so? The 'greatest person in the history of football after Scotty Parker' Phil Jones, who cannot cross and is caught out of position every other minute? Or Micah 'too good for England' Richards? Kelly is the best viable option for the slot, and is versatile too.

The highlighted bit, no surprises on the basis of your argument then.

The_Kew_Tour

I think England have best man for job since Venables and Robson.

Not sure about Euro 2012, but give him time and I think he do good job of England.

Time will tell though

Hulk Hands

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Where do people get this stuff from? It clearly isn't from watching the last season of football that's for sure.

He's been a liability for years, and one half decent season isn't going to change that. Liverpool's defensive record was much more down to Enrique, Agger and the Reina. Richards is a far better player and it's scandalous he's not ahead of Johnson in the pecking order

The_Kew_Tour

Hulk Hands wrote: »

He's been a liability for years, and one half decent season isn't going to change that. Liverpool's defensive record was much more down to Enrique, Agger and the Reina. Richards is a far better player and it's scandalous he's not ahead of Johnson in the pecking order

If anything he was the weak link and not Johnson.

LuckyLloyd

Hulk Hands wrote: »

He's been a liability for years, and one half decent season isn't going to change that. Liverpool's defensive record was much more down to Enrique, Agger and the Reina. Richards is a far better player and it's scandalous he's not ahead of Johnson in the pecking order

Well if you wanted someone to cover right back and center back I tend to agree - Richards should definitely have been selected ahead of Jones.

Hulk Hands

djfitzerjnr wrote: »

So who would be the back up RB so? The 'greatest person in the history of football after Scotty Parker' Phil Jones, who cannot cross and is caught out of position every other minute? Or Micah 'too good for England' Richards? Kelly is the best viable option for the slot, and is versatile too.

The highlighted bit, no surprises on the basis of your argument then.

I'm sure Jones is ahead of Kelly in the pecking order at RB, or at CB. Even Hodgson can't be that clueless.

Richards should have been one of the first names on the squad list.

monkey9

Hulk Hands wrote: »

He's been a liability for years, and one half decent season isn't going to change that. Liverpool's defensive record was much more down to Enrique, Agger and the Reina. Richards is a far better player and it's scandalous he's not ahead of Johnson in the pecking order

Reina probably had his poorest season last year at Liverpool and Enrique went to sh!t the last few months. Johnson's played well for Liverpool the last couple of seasons. As someone already said, are you actually watching these games??

monkey9

Hulk Hands wrote: »

I'm sure Jones is ahead of Kelly in the pecking order at RB, or at CB. Even Hodgson can't be that clueless.

Richards should have been one of the first names on the squad list.

Richards is better, but went off on holiday and wouldn't go on the standby list so that's him ruled out. Walker is injured. So who would you have picked ahead of Kelly at right back??

G.K.

Kelly is much better than Jones as a RB.

The_Kew_Tour

TBF I think the Liverpool lads on squad are there on merit.

Do feel sorry for Rio, but good for us too.

Hulk Hands

Hulk Hands wrote: »

I'm sure Jones is ahead of Kelly in the pecking order at RB, or at CB. Even Hodgson can't be that clueless.

Richards should have been one of the first names on the squad list.

He'd be in the squad now if he didn't refuse to go on the standby list.

I'd imagine he won't feature again for England under Hodgson.

Hulk Hands

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Playing him every second game won't bring much continuity really. You want your central defenders to form a partnership, not be chopped and changed every second game.

It's not as if they're going to gain much continuity now, as they have been chopping and changing the CB partnership all through the qualifiers.

Rio could play the first and third game, and probably every game after that. It would be a much more desirable option than having Lescott and Terry back there allegedly not even on speaking terms. Great way to form a partnership

djfitzerjnr

Hulk Hands wrote: »

I'm sure Jones is ahead of Kelly in the pecking order at RB, or at CB. Even Hodgson can't be that clueless.

Richards should have been one of the first names on the squad list.

Jones replaced Cahill as CB player, and in turn Kelly replaced Jones as RB cover.

How Jones went as a RB in the first place baffles me. Cannot cross to save his life, and in the modern game, full backs do most of your crossing.

G.K.

G.K. wrote: »

Kelly is much better than Jones as a RB.

Do people actually know Jones best position yet?

Seems a utility type player atm, jack of all trades, master of none.

MagicMarker

Jones most certainly can cross, in the second half of his season his game, and all aspects of it, went to shít. I actually think he has a fantastic cross on him, better than Rafael anyway.

In the first half of the season he was fantastic, and based on that form he would be my 3rd choice English RB after Richards & Smalling.

MagicMarker

MagicMarker wrote: »

In the first half of the season he was fantastic, and based on that form he would be my 3rd choice English RB after Richards & Smalling.

lol

Hulk Hands

monkey9 wrote: »

Reina probably had his poorest season last year at Liverpool and Enrique went to sh!t the last few months. Johnson's played well for Liverpool the last couple of seasons. As someone already said, are you actually watching these games??

I've watched a lot of Liverpool for a few years, and even at their peak (08-09), I always though Johnson was the weak link. Reina still had a decent season as keepers go. When Enrique's form went, so did your defensive record. It was the best in the league in the 1st half of the season.

monkey9 wrote: »

Richards is better, but went off on holiday and wouldn't go on the standby list so that's him ruled out. Walker is injured. So who would you have picked ahead of Kelly at right back??

Richards should have been on the original list, and asked to be ruled out after hearing the news as he was sick of continuing disappointments for England. I'm sure he thought after Capello things may change for him.

I never stated i wouldnt bring Kelly. But I I was in charge I'd have taken another midfielder. There's enough cover at the back.

Beefy78

Hulk Hands wrote: »

He's not a very good player. He's an average player who may improve in time. If he was very good he would've beaten out Johnson or Skretel to the starting jobs at Liverpool.

Another cock-up by Hodgson is having a defensive liability in Johnson at RB. Richards should be starting there, never mind be in the squad. With that being fecked up, Jones is a better option at RB, especially against France, however unpolished and Raw he is.

Actually the best option would be to move Ashley Cole to RB and play Leighton Baines on the left, as they are 2 of England's best players. Would never happen though

So you're criticising Hodgson's "cock ups" in the same post as advocating that possibly the best left back in the World is played out of position on the right (where I don't recall him ever starting a match in his career)? Either you're a footballing genius or you're in no position to criticise Hodgson.

djfitzerjnr

MagicMarker wrote: »

Jones most certainly can cross, in the second half of his season his game, and all aspects of it, went to shít. I actually think he has a fantastic cross on him, better than Rafael anyway.

In the first half of the season he was fantastic, and based on that form he would be my 3rd choice English RB after Richards & Smalling.

So because the media-darling had a few good games at the start of the season, a full 8-10 months before the actual tournament, he should be there ahead of 2 better players that had better seasons? ha ha ha!

Hulk Hands

rarnes1 wrote: »

Do people actually know Jones best position yet?

Seems a utility type player atm, jack of all trades, master of none.

An excellent Centre Half. Actually, for a 19 year old, a phenomenal prospect at CB

Hulk Hands

Beefy78 wrote: »

So you're criticising Hodgson's "cock ups" in the same post as advocating that possibly the best left back in the World is played out of position on the right (where I don't recall him ever starting a match in his career)? Either you're a footballing genius or you're in no position to criticise Hodgson.

If you read my next post I advocated trying it in friendlies after the campaign, or prior to this one. Nothing more than trying it out