Continuing Hodgson/Ferdinand/Terry Controversy

niallo27

Blatter wrote: »

Ferdinand has played twice in 4 days a few times for United over the last few months, Fergie didn't say that he couldn't do it for England. It'd be a blatant lie if he did.

7th December - Starts v Basle

10th December - Starts v Wolves


4th January - Starts v Newcastle

8th January - Starts v Man City


11th March - Starts v West Brom

15th March - Starts v Bilbao


8th April - Starts v QPR

11th April (only 3 days later) - Starts v Wigan

Didnt they lose once each time he did and conceded quite a few goals in them games, if my memory serves me correct.

Sgt Pepper 64

His England career has been in steady decline as well, so pls stop with the conspiracy theories, he's been dropped and should just accept it rather than whining through his agent, no one has a divine right to play and he's just embarassing himself now. If he cares that much about England he would rather than further distracting the lads who have been picked

2009 4
2010 4
2011 1


JT

2009 8
2010 7
2011 7

Blatter

niallo27 wrote: »

I would say Rio is a better defender than Terry but if i was an english fan, i would have Terry starting everytime before Rio if that makes sense. He just seems to want it more than Ferdinand.

Rio is more intelligent, has slightly better positioning and plays the ball out better from the back. Terry is more dominant in the air and has a better physical presence.

Corholio

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Behave! Vidic and Jones will be your first choice CB next season
Its well known that JT is the better defender even at his peak. He's been in steady decline for a few years now

Why would Fergie bring it up unless he really thought that?
Do you know how the tournament works? You play every 4 days until the next stages. You dont start changing your back 4 around unless you have to - you want them to all play together possible.
I doubt England will even reach the stages where the matches are less frequent

Well known? I didn't know there was an official test for it now. IMO Ferdinand was better at his peak than Terry was at his peak, not even that close either. Ferdinand was supreme at top of his game, I don't think Terry has ever reached that.

Mr Alan

Blatter wrote: »

Rio is more intelligent, has slightly better positioning and plays the ball out better from the back. Terry is more dominant in the air and has a better physical presence.

You know who the manager picking these players is, right?

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the hodge called Carra out of retirement before selecting Ferdinand.

Blatter

niallo27 wrote: »

Didnt they lose once each time he did and conceded quite a few goals in them games, if my memory serves me correct.

Won against Wolves - 1 goal conceded, can't really remember who was at fault, it was a header anyway.

Won against City - 2 goals conceded, none were Rio's fault - one was a free kick and the other a Scholes/Evra error.

Lost against Bilbao - 2 goals conceded but again Rio wasn't at fault for either goal.

Lost against Wigan - 1 goal conceded, wasn't Rio's fault, it was Rooney's because he didn't close down Maloney from the edge of the box.


To be honest there was no notable difference in Rio's performance in those games.

Sgt Pepper 64

I know its the sun but

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/3907933/Alex-Ferguson-Rio-Ferdinand-is-no-longer-an-automatic-pick.html

Even blames his own manager!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/rio-ferdinand-blames-alex-ferguson-836536

Blatter

Mr Alan wrote: »

You know who the manager picking these players is, right?

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the hodge called Carra out of retirement before selecting Ferdinand.

I know Hodgson doesn't like it but he could still have told Rio to hit it long and I'm sure he would have followed that instruction. It's not that hard in fairness!

MagicMarker

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

I know its the sun but

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/3907933/Alex-Ferguson-Rio-Ferdinand-is-no-longer-an-automatic-pick.html

Even blames his own manager!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/rio-ferdinand-blames-alex-ferguson-836536

Seriously clutching at straws now.

BorneTobyWilde

__________Hart_____

Johnson__Lescot_Terry_Cole

Milner___Parker___Downing

_______Gerrard________

____Carroll___Defoe____

If only you had a good manager, Like Trap
My team, so defensive without ball,
Licence to express with ball,

If terry gets injured tomorrow, Would ferdinand get call up ? < My question to Roy if i was a reporter,.........

Sgt Pepper 64

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

__________Hart_____

Johnson__Lescot_Terry_Cole

Milner___Parker___Downing

_______Gerrard________

____Carroll___Defoe____

If only you had a good manager, Like Trap
My team, so defensive without ball,
Licence to express with ball,

If terry gets injured tomorrow, Would ferdinand get call up ? < My question to Roy if i was a reporter,.........

Anybody can play CB - Chelsea proved that

niallo27

Blatter wrote: »

Won against Wolves - 1 goal conceded, can't really remember who was at fault, it was a header anyway.

Won against City - 2 goals conceded, none were Rio's fault - one was a free kick and the other a Scholes/Evra error.

Lost against Bilbao - 2 goals conceded but again Rio wasn't at fault for either goal.

Lost against Wigan - 1 goal conceded, wasn't Rio's fault, it was Rooney's because he didn't close down Maloney from the edge of the box.


To be honest there was no notable difference in Rio's performance in those games.

Didn't they lose to basle as well, it's a pretty poor record in fairness.

Blatter

niallo27 wrote: »

Didn't they lose to basle as well, it's a pretty poor record in fairness.

Yeah, but again I don't remember Ferdinand's performance being particularly different to what it was in the other games.

The results mean nothing in relation to how Rio performed niallo. You can still play well and lose a match, you have to look at his performance and not the result.

mike65

I don't like the way Roy Hodgson is being asked (told?) to justify not picking Ferdinand.

niallo27

Blatter wrote: »

Yeah, but again I don't remember Ferdinand's performance being particularly different to what it was in the other games.

The results mean nothing in relation to how Rio performed niallo. You can still play well and lose a match, you have to look at his performance and not the result.

I only remember the european games when utd looked a bit of a shambles at the back, I'll take your word for it that he played ok. We all agree that he is good enough to be in the squad but Roy made his mind up a good while ago he wasn't going and no matter what happened he wasn't going to change his mind.

kryogen

Hodgson is being asked to clarify what he means by footballing reasons.

He should really either tell the truth, or just say nothing. His media savvy has him in this position

Blatter

niallo27 wrote: »

I only remember the european games when utd looked a bit of a shambles at the back, I'll take your word for it that he played ok. We all agree that he is good enough to be in the squad but Roy made his mind up a good while ago he wasn't going and no matter what happened he wasn't going to change his mind.

He put in some dodgy displays in many of the early European games, but he hadn't been getting a regular run in the team at that point and the defence was constantly changing, which was the main reason for it being a shambles.

Since he got settled as first choice with Evans, he has generally been very good and hasn't been affected by playing two games in four days.

mags1962

Not like Ferguson has not got form for not wanting his players to play for their countries back as far as Neil Webb. How many friendlies has Giggs played for Wales? Not to mention some retiring early from international football.
It would not surprise me one bit if Ferguson had a word with his mate Roy to suggest that Rio was not up to it never mind also how many times over the years Rio has been injured and unavailable for England only to play the next game for Utd?

monkey9

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

So a player misses out on the Euros - sob sob sob

The fact that his own manager said he wasnt up for it isnt enough apparently. There HAS to be some conspiracy theory - cant be just he is old and crap

You're right, there doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory and there is none. It's fairly obvious that Ferdinand isn't in the squad because the Chelsea club captain is standing trial next month for allegedly racially abusing Ferdinand's brother.

Simply put, it should be Terry left out of the squad if the two of them can't be in it!

LuckyLloyd

monkey9 wrote: »

You're right, there doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory and there is none. It's fairly obvious that Ferdinand isn't in the squad because the Chelsea club captain is standing trial next month for allegedly racially abusing Ferdinand's brother.

Simply put, it should be Terry left out of the squad if the two of them can't be in it!

So let me see if I can boil down the pro Ferdinand argument in a nutshell:

- There is emnity between Ferdinand and Terry because of the incident in the QPR game which will appear before a court later this year;
- This means that, in effect, when selecting an England squad for this tournament both players could not be selected. It was an either / or situation or a case of bringing neither;
- When the above points are true, the choice of who to select should not make it to a consideration in terms of footballing ability. Terry is to appear in court, therefore Terry should be left at home;

That it?

And then some in the pro Ferdinand camp will go one step further and argue that - in the event of Hodgson overlooking the court appearance - Ferdinand should still be picked in terms of footballing ability.

If this is the pro Ferdinand position then it seems quite bankrupt to me.

- Innocent until proven guilty means that Terry should be eligible for selection until a court or footballing body deem otherwise;
- In terms of footballing ability Terry is superior when you consider A) how England will set themselves up to play and Terry's relatively superior durability and fitness;

The longer the English media and Ferdinand's circle make an issue of this the more they will damage the England squad's chances in the tournament. I'm no fan of Hodgson's ability and I think he made questionable decisions when putting this squad together - but this isn't one of them.

Finally, as dislikeable as Terry is as a person, if we ignore the basic tenant of presumption of innocence then the terrorists have won. Terry clearly commands huge respect from his teammates and suits the type of game England will play.

Time to get over this methinks. Utd will benefit from Ferdinand staying on holiday.

Chucky the tree

cournioni wrote: »

Not purely on it, but it gives a great indication of how well a player has done over the course of a season. Especially as Ferdinand was one of Uniteds most consistent and had more appearances than most in the United line up. If you can come up with a better judgement of a player than that then please elaborate a little.

Terry and Chelsea haven't performed well defensively since Ancelotti was manager. The only times they have looked solid defensively since Di Matteo has arrived has been the Barcelona games and the Bayern game where they parked the bus.

I find watching them play as a better way of judging a player instead of team stats.

Blatter wrote: »

Ferdinand has played twice in 4 days a few times for United over the last few months, Fergie didn't say that he couldn't do it for England. It'd be a blatant lie if he did.

7th December - Starts v Basle

10th December - Starts v Wolves


4th January - Starts v Newcastle

8th January - Starts v Man City


11th March - Starts v West Brom

15th March - Starts v Bilbao


8th April - Starts v QPR

11th April (only 3 days later) - Starts v Wigan

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/alex-ferguson-rio-ferdinand-wont-last-euro-2012-pace-7742406.html

So what exactly did Fergie he mean when he said it? Or did he just blatantly lie?

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Just after realising Ferdinand has never played at the Euros, and hasn't been at a major tournament since Germany 2006. Tbf, I was in his position I'd probably be throwing a little hissy fit as well.

Beefy78

LuckyLloyd sums it up perfectly, IMO. At their peak I'd have Ferdinand over Terry every time but right now, for this England team for this tournament if it's a choice between the two then I completely get why Hodgson went for Terry.

killwill

Beefy78 wrote: »

LuckyLloyd sums it up perfectly, IMO. At their peak I'd have Ferdinand over Terry every time but right now, for this England team for this tournament if it's a choice between the two then I completely get why Hodgson went for Terry.

I am of the opinion Rio should have gone, BUT I am biased.
What do you believe to be the footballing reasons behind choosing Terry over Ferdinand?
When it comes to technical ability I believe both to be the best CBs in England.
Both lack pace but Terry is even slower than Ferdinand.
However I do concede that Terry is a natural born leader on the pitch. Something that Rio simply is not.

Beefy78

England won't be defending high up the pitch so Ferdinand's superior pace won't be a factor. The defenders will be told to give the ball to the midfielders or hoof it upfield if under pressure, so Ferdinand's superior abilities on the ball won't be a factor. Being an English centre-half in this tournament will be about holding a line, staying disciplined, putting your head on every cross into the box and throwing your body in front of every shot.

Add to that the question marks over Ferdinand's fitness and ability to play every few days and I think the choice of Terry over Rio does make a certain degree of sense if you're stripping non-football factors out of it.

It's just a shame that the International career of one of the finest defenders we've ever produced has ended like this.

CSF

Hodgson has now come out and said he hopes Terry gets cleared of racism by the FA.

Disgrace of a man. Should be sacked.

Red Crow

Hodgson isn't strong enough to be England manager. The way Terry plays if England show any ambition in playing attacking football Terry will be exposed. I really think England should be looking to move away from Ferdinand and Terry for the next World Cup. Smalling, Jones, Walker, Richards etc. should all be put into the team over the the qualifying campaign but Hodgson is far to limited to think that far ahead. Also England will have to find a partner for Jack Wilshere so Cleverley, Rodwell, Henderson should be starting now.

sReq | uTeK

Eli Manning wrote: »

Hodgson isn't strong enough to be England manager. The way Terry plays if England show any ambition in playing attacking football Terry will be exposed. I really think England should be looking to move away from Ferdinand and Terry for the next World Cup. Smalling, Jones, Walker, Richards etc. should all be put into the team over the the qualifying campaign but Hodgson is far to limited to think that far ahead. Also England will have to find a partner for Jack Wilshere so Cleverley, Rodwell, Henderson should be starting now.

I see what you did there, good one.

Beefy78

CSF wrote: »

Hodgson has now come out and said he hopes Terry gets cleared of racism by the FA.

Disgrace of a man. Should be sacked.

He hopes one of his key players is not guilty of racism?

WHAT A BASTARD.

:rolleyes:

CSF

Beefy78 wrote: »

CSF wrote: »

Hodgson has now come out and said he hopes Terry gets cleared of racism by the FA.

Disgrace of a man. Should be sacked.

He hopes one of his key players is not guilty of racism?

WHAT A BASTARD.

:rolleyes:

That's not what he said. And even if it was he shouldn't be commenting at all.

KH25

Surely it would be better for Hodgson to say nothing about it until the FA makes a decision?

CSF

KH25 wrote: »

Surely it would be better for Hodgson to say nothing about it until the FA makes a decision?

Of course it would, but the man is so lacking in class that the idea wouldnt even cross his mind.

Beefy78

There are some seriously bitter people on here able to twist anything to fit their sad agenda. It's pretty pathetic, tbh.

CSF

Beefy78 wrote: »

There are some seriously bitter people on here able to twist anything to fit their sad agenda. It's pretty pathetic, tbh.

Good argument. You should join the local debate team.

GavRedKing

CSF wrote: »

Hodgson has now come out and said he hopes Terry gets cleared of racism by the FA.

Disgrace of a man. Should be sacked.

Any link to his full quote?

CSF

GavRedKing wrote: »

CSF wrote: »

Hodgson has now come out and said he hopes Terry gets cleared of racism by the FA.

Disgrace of a man. Should be sacked.

Any link to his full quote?

I'm on my phone so no links, there's an article on RTE website with a detailed enough transcript of what he said

GavRedKing

Heres what Roy said .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2188443/Roy-Hodgson-risks-FA-fury-backing-John-Terry-race-row-Anton-Ferdinand.html

Hodgson said: 'As far as I am concerned he has a case to answer with the FA and I’ll wait and see what happens. I’m hoping, and I make no secret of this, that the case will take its course and that John, hopefully, will be freed as he was freed in a court of law, and will carry on playing for England.

'That's my hope. What will happen, I have no idea. As a member of the FA, it’s a sub judice situation and I’m not prepared to say any more.

'I thought John did well in the Euros and I’d like to keep using him but this is a case which is way out of my hands. John understands that.

'All I can do, like many of his supporters I suppose, is just hope he gets freed and can continue to play.'

thebaz

what happened in Limerick recently , and what used to happen at Goodison was disgraceful - this never ending Ferinand / terry is becoming tiresome , certainly to me - I dont see it as rascism , just personal hatred between 2 players - lets move on - or is just another slow press day

CSF

thebaz wrote: »

what happened in Limerick recently , and what used to happen at Goodison was disgraceful - this never ending Ferinand / terry is becoming tiresome , certainly to me - I dont see it as rascism , just personal hatred between 2 players - lets move on - or is just another slow press day

There we have it lads, thebaz doesn't think this incident of racial abuse is important. Let's move on. Poor Suarez, that's all I can say.

MUSEIST

CSF wrote: »

There we have it lads, thebaz doesn't think this incident of racial abuse is important. Let's move on. Poor Suarez, that's all I can say.

Except there is absolutely no evidence of any racial abuse in this case. There are plenty of people jumping on the bandwagon and allowing their hatred of terry to cloud the facts and thus is tiresome.

LuckyLloyd

MUSEIST wrote: »

Except there is absolutely no evidence of any racial abuse in this case. There are plenty of people jumping on the bandwagon and allowing their hatred of terry to cloud the facts and thus is tiresome.

thebaz

CSF wrote: »

There we have it lads, thebaz doesn't think this incident of racial abuse is important. Let's move on.

What do you want another court case ?

Terry to be banned for life for trading insults with Ferdinand - and Hodson to be sacked - lets move on

niallo27

CSF wrote: »

There we have it lads, thebaz doesn't think this incident of racial abuse is important. Let's move on. Poor Suarez, that's all I can say.

Suarez was shafted we all know this.

GavRedKing

I hope he does get found guilty, be interesting to see the FA go against a courts finding and yes I'm aware the FA have different criteria too what they will investigate and charge people with.

J. Marston

niallo27 wrote: »

Suarez was shafted all Liverpool fans think this.

Fixed.

niallo27

J. Marston wrote: »

Fixed.

Well if Terry gets off, there is no denying that Suarez will have been well and truly shafted.

Pro. F

niallo27 wrote: »

Well if Terry gets off, there is no denying that Suarez will have been well and truly shafted.

Do the two cases have the exact same evidence or are they quite different?

Benimar

Pro. F wrote: »

Do the two cases have the exact same evidence or are they quite different?

No. There was no visual evidence in the Suarez case. There is here.

As the Suarez case 'proved' the FA aren't interested in context or nuances, just the words used. On that basis Terry should be getting a ban.

I think the way Liverpool and Suarez handled the incident was terrible, but I did feel 8 games was harsh given the evidence. However if Terry gets off, then Suarez was screwed.

cloptrop

Last time i got involved in a thread like this i spent about 8months having to log out to read the soccer forum. It wasnt nice .
Kick racism out thats what i always say .
Hodgeson was a bit silly in even speaking bout it . But he did say he hoped he was found innocent. He didnt say he hoped he was found innocent whether or not he did it .

Caveman1

I dont see why people are making such a big deal about Hodgson's comments. He's Terrys manager he's obviously going to back him, even more so after he was found not guilty in court. If it was a lesser known player it probably wouldn't even make the papers